ORAS UU Viability Rankings V4

[Freeroamer]

"It gets forced out by some common Pokemon" is one of those bland arguments used to downplay a pokemon's viability when in reality that statement could be twisted and used for almost any Pokemon in the tier. How many Pokemon in these rankings are forced out by the likes of Alakazam and Cobalion for example? Doesn't make them bad mons. For Slowking it matters even less thanks to Regen making such occasions that it is forced out a lot less detrimental to it. I don't actually use Slowking that much so I'm not going to comment on where it should be but I think that's a really flawed line of reasoning. Also from what I've seen, I find CM to be the least effective choice in the 3rd slot on most occasions, D Tail and T Wave are often better due to making Slowking more annoying to switch into(not to mention both dissuade common Hydreigon switches immensely).

 

[dodmen]

Alright, sorry I'm late in updating this, but lots of text incoming.

Changes:

Alakazam: A to A+, simply due to the fact that switching into it is so difficult especially with Spikes where it thrives. Definitely an extremely influential Pokemon in the tier.

Kyurem: A- to B+. As expected, there was quite a bit of discussion on this. The main argument regarding it is that it punishes teams that throw on a Florges as their Dragon check. This is true and it's the largest reason to use Kyurem at all over Hydreigon, but it still stands that Hydreigon is flat out the better choice the large majority of the time due to its better typing/resistances, lack of Stealth Rock weakness, and higher versatility. Also, though Kyurem does better against Whimsicott and Florges, it has additional checks as well in Pokemon such as Bronzong and Escavalier. Hydreigon can also viably run Focus Blast as its third moveslot on LO and Specs sets to hit the same generic special walls that Kyurem can, so it's not like Kyurem has an advantage there either. There's no doubt that Kyurem's a good Pokemon, but I don't think anyone can agree that it's on the same level in this tier as, for example, Infernape or Mega Sceptile.

Donphan: B- to C+. People mentioned offensive sets, but Krookodile and Mamoswine are about 100x better as offensive Ground-types. Like I mentioned in my previous post, you only use it when you're desperate for an offensive-ish spin, and that's exactly what the C ranks are for.

All of these were supported by most people:
Honchkrow: B- to C+
Diancie: C+ to B-.
Meloetta: C to C+
Flygon: Unranked to C-
Vaporeon: C- to D. Just because it has access to Wish + Baton Pass doesn't mean that's a worthwhile use of a Pokemon.

Other nominations from last time:
Venomoth: stays B, yeah idk what I was thinking lol this is so much more of a threat than B-.

Slurpuff: stays B. I thought about this for a while and while Slurpuff definitely isn't the greatest sweeper, it's probably fairly ranked in B for now. YABO's post sums it up nicely.

Nominations:

Porygon2: B to B+. I never really thought this was that good, but it does check a fair number of top threats and is one of the few actual counters to Gyarados so that's pretty good. I'd like to see some more discussion on this one.

Slowking: B+ to A-. Leaning towards no, yes it's very useful and checks a lot of things but definitely not at the level required for it to go to A-. Regardless, what are other people's opinions?

Darmanitan: B- to B. Been using Scarf Darm recently and it actually performs surprisingly well against many offensive teams since people don't really think to prepare for it. Overall Mienshao and Hydreigon are better Scarf users by far, and it will be pretty useless / even a liability some of the time, but with the right partners it can be more effective than its rank currently shows.

Other stuff that people brought up:

Aromatisse: The main thing that keeps this where it is right now is the fact that it's an actual full counter to Sableye with Aroma Veil, whereas Florges is prone to getting worn down via Knock Off, WoW, and getting Taunted on the switch. Taking a lot less than Florges from Lucario, Heracross, Mienshao, Mega Absol, Mega Sharpedo, and Machamp is the other part of it.

Porygon-Z: Yeah this hits hard but it's too slow and bad against every playstyle other than some forms of balance to go any higher. It doesn't do shit defensively either, the best it can do is come in once on like defensive Swampert or something. Plus, having Sableye here only makes things worse.

Sharpedo: I wouldn't place it any higher than where it is right now at C+. It's definitely below average as a cleaner, it doesn't have the power and it's way too hard to fit on a team.

 

[Tymano]

Nice New Slate :)

Porygon2 B -> B+: Support: Being one of the few hard-counters to Gyarados is very nice for so many teams right now it's actually insane, otherwise it's a nice bulky mon for balance teams that can hit back while having good recovery. It falls in the face of most status conditions, and hates most of the popular fighting types right now, but since Gyarados, Sableye, and Salamence are all pretty good partners for it, it can keep most of those at bay. Being overy-reliant on eviolite isn't fun, but it's got all the tools of a B+ mon, and it should probably stay there for it's general utility.

Slowking B+ -> A-: Do not support: Slowking is a mon that has a lot of great qualities, but it's better on paper than in practice. Being weak to Knock off with it's low defense hurts, and it is set-up fodder for Sub Gyarados, which is very bad. It also has trouble stopping some things it probably should be stopping, like Grounds, Toxicroak, and other fighting-types. Overall, it should stay where it is.

 

[DaSpoofy]

Overall I am pretty happy with the nominations. The one that struck home was the Honchkrow one. It really is a great pokemon that can do a lot of work, but it is rather difficult to put on a team effectively. I'g glad to see Darmanitan getting the nomination. I don't know whether I spurred the nom or not with my argument but either way I'm happy.

I would like to address the Slowking nom since it is something I am familiar with. I checked a couple weeks ago and Slowking was A- so I don't know what happened if I missed a nom or what. Anyway, Slowking is good, like really good. Its a bulky pokemon that can fire off scald over and over again without much consequence because it doesn't have to click slack off all the time. The calm mind set fills a lot of roles too. It acts as a set up sweeper, and entei counter (really nice), and an overall bulky wall. I find Slowking able to 6-0 non tangrowth stall after it gets burned (so it cant get toxiced). Its def is far from poor. Gyarados would be lucky to do 50% to Slowking with a plus one bounce and Mega Swampert can't even 2hko with EQ. Psyshock can break Gyarados subs in case you were wondering.

A set that I have been using as of late is the Thunder-Wave with D-tail/ Icebeam. I get so many Hydreigon switches into slowking so being able to punish that with t wave is awesome. It also is nice for shutting down Zam. Simply come in on stab, take the shadowball, and T wave. D-tail works nicely to phaze out the Lum berry DD mence and the incoming Helioisk. Ice beam is nice for Mega Sceptile and Sally. Fireblast can be used as a nice escav lure.

I will admit that the presence of Zapdos does hurt Slowking some, though its not hard to just scald, hope for a burn, and switch out. I would like to see Slowking go back up to A- and I feel it belongs there. It is one of the best walls in the tier and I often use it more than suicune because of it's resistances and lack of predictability.

 

[FFXIII-Lightning]

Alright, sorry I'm late in updating this, but lots of text incoming.

Changes:

Alakazam: A to A+, simply due to the fact that switching into it is so difficult especially with Spikes where it thrives. Definitely an extremely influential Pokemon in the tier.

Kyurem: A- to B+. As expected, there was quite a bit of discussion on this. The main argument regarding it is that it punishes teams that throw on a Florges as their Dragon check. This is true and it's the largest reason to use Kyurem at all over Hydreigon, but it still stands that Hydreigon is flat out the better choice the large majority of the time due to its better typing/resistances, lack of Stealth Rock weakness, and higher versatility. Also, though Kyurem does better against Whimsicott and Florges, it has additional checks as well in Pokemon such as Bronzong and Escavalier. Hydreigon can also viably run Focus Blast as its third moveslot on LO and Specs sets to hit the same generic special walls that Kyurem can, so it's not like Kyurem has an advantage there either. There's no doubt that Kyurem's a good Pokemon, but I don't think anyone can agree that it's on the same level in this tier as, for example, Infernape or Mega Sceptile.

Donphan: B- to C+. People mentioned offensive sets, but Krookodile and Mamoswine are about 100x better as offensive Ground-types. Like I mentioned in my previous post, you only use it when you're desperate for an offensive-ish spin, and that's exactly what the C ranks are for.

All of these were supported by most people:
Honchkrow: B- to C+
Diancie: C+ to B-.
Meloetta: C to C+
Flygon: Unranked to C-
Vaporeon: C- to D. Just because it has access to Wish + Baton Pass doesn't mean that's a worthwhile use of a Pokemon.

Other nominations from last time:
Venomoth: stays B, yeah idk what I was thinking lol this is so much more of a threat than B-.

Slurpuff: stays B. I thought about this for a while and while Slurpuff definitely isn't the greatest sweeper, it's probably fairly ranked in B for now. YABO's post sums it up nicely.

Nominations:

Porygon2: B+ to B. I never really thought this was that good, but it does check a fair number of top threats and is one of the few actual counters to Gyarados so that's pretty good. I'd like to see some more discussion on this one.

Slowking: B+ to A-. Leaning towards no, yes it's very useful and checks a lot of things but definitely not at the level required for it to go to A-. Regardless, what are other people's opinions?

Darmanitan: B- to B. Been using Scarf Darm recently and it actually performs surprisingly well against many offensive teams since people don't really think to prepare for it. Overall Mienshao and Hydreigon are better Scarf users by far, and it will be pretty useless / even a liability some of the time, but with the right partners it can be more effective than its rank currently shows.

Other stuff that people brought up:

Aromatisse: The main thing that keeps this where it is right now is the fact that it's an actual full counter to Sableye with Aroma Veil, whereas Florges is prone to getting worn down via Knock Off, WoW, and getting Taunted on the switch. Taking a lot less than Florges from Lucario, Heracross, Mienshao, Mega Absol, Mega Sharpedo, and Machamp is the other part of it.

Porygon-Z: Yeah this hits hard but it's too slow and bad against every playstyle other than some forms of balance to go any higher. It doesn't do shit defensively either, the best it can do is come in once on like defensive Swampert or something. Plus, having Sableye here only makes things worse.

Sharpedo: I wouldn't place it any higher than where it is right now at C+. It's definitely below average as a cleaner, it doesn't have the power and it's way too hard to fit on a team.

oh...so... uh just ignore the drifblim nom thats cool *runs away crying*

 

[Aquadext]

Something I want to discuss is

Cresselia's viability in UU, and whether or not it deserves a rise in rankings (from B+ to A-). I'm leaning towards a yes, but some people seem to disagree, so I'll just give my opinion on the matter.

Building effectively in UU is incredibly hard right now, as with the latest drops, there are way too many threats to account for. Role compression is the key to success, and is also the reason why mons like Swampert or Whimsicott are so popular. For this reason, Cresselia is a pokémon that I found to be extremely effective lately, as it brings many, many useful traits to a team and checks a mad number of relevant threats, all of this in only one teamslot. It is a sturdy fighting resist and physical wall, that can also reliably check many (not too strong) special attackers. It checks: Aerodactyl, Salamence, Swampert-mega, Cobalion, Gyarados, Mamoswine, Florges, Zapdos, Nidos, Infernape, Toxicroak (and many more, I just looked at the highest viability rankings). Not only is it a great all-around check, but it also serves as a strong win condition with its CM set (which I prefer over other sets), which P2 (which is often compared with Cress') cannot do. I am aware that on more "fat" teams, Reuniclus/Slowking/Florges are better choices as CM users, but in (bulky) offensive teams that have very few room to dedicate to checking things, Cresselia definitely has more advantages.

For all these reasons, I think Cresselia should see a rise in viability rankings.

 

[camo pumpkin]

Ferroseed: Unranked to C+. Exclusively used for stall since it kills momentum so much, but there it's an extremely functional spiker. Its typing is better (or at least fills a different niche) for that purpose than for example forretress/roserade/chesnaught because it can switch in on most of the omnipresent water types (aura sphere mega-toise is a big exception) and set up spikes. Iron barbs also presents a check to obsessive u-turning.
Alomomola: B+ to B. Perhaps I'm late to the party and I missed this discussion, but the only place I see alomomola is stall since it kills momentum. Seems pretty niche in that regard.
Slowking: B+ to A-. Support. T-wave on a regenerator mon that also walls/checks such a huge portion of the metagame is extremely useful on both stall and balance. And vs. sub gyarados, I think that's a bit of prediction war since the question is whether slowking can slack off during the first turn of bounce or it slacks off when gyarados DDs again

 

[Take Azelfie]

Ferroseed: Unranked to C+. Exclusively used for stall since it kills momentum so much, but there it's an extremely functional spiker. Its typing is better (or at least fills a different niche) for that purpose than for example forretress/roserade/chesnaught because it can switch in on most of the omnipresent water types (aura sphere mega-toise is a big exception) and set up spikes. Iron barbs also presents a check to obsessive u-turning.

Ferroseed doesn't have anything over Forretress besides Water resist which isn't hard to put on a stall team in the first place (look at alomomola.) There is no situation where I would want to use Ferroseed as my spiker as well since it has a huge weakness to Knock Off which just flat outs takes away from its bulk, heck even if you lasted long enough to get 3 layers of spikes up you wouldn't have any instant recovery and you don't even stop Blastoise from launching an Aura Sphere at you, and then you lose all your spikes to rapid spin. Forretress can at least Volt Switch out into another teammate and set up more than one hazard. Show me a match where Ferroseed does something that NO OTHER SPIKER can.

 

[FFXIII-Lightning]

Something I want to discuss is

Cresselia's viability in UU, and whether or not it deserves a rise in rankings (from B+ to A-). I'm leaning towards a yes, but some people seem to disagree, so I'll just give my opinion on the matter.

Building effectively in UU is incredibly hard right now, as with the latest drops, there are way too many threats to account for. Role compression is the key to success, and is also the reason why mons like Swampert or Whimsicott are so popular. For this reason, Cresselia is a pokémon that I found to be extremely effective lately, as it brings many, many useful traits to a team and checks a mad number of relevant threats, all of this in only one teamslot. It is a sturdy fighting resist and physical wall, that can also reliably check many (not too strong) special attackers. It checks: Aerodactyl, Salamence, Swampert-mega, Cobalion, Gyarados, Mamoswine, Florges, Zapdos, Nidos, Infernape, Toxicroak (and many more, I just looked at the highest viability rankings). Not only is it a great all-around check, but it also serves as a strong win condition with its CM set (which I prefer over other sets), which P2 (which is often compared with Cress') cannot do. I am aware that on more "fat" teams, Reuniclus/Slowking/Florges are better choices as CM users, but in (bulky) offensive teams that have very few room to dedicate to checking things, Cresselia definitely has more advantages.

For all these reasons, I think Cresselia should see a rise in viability rankings.

Also, while screens aren't really a popular play style at the moment, I would like to add that it's definitely one of the best screen setters available in uu right now and I think that kind of set is often overlooked on Cress as a great support mon. Its also a great mon to stop sweepers with T Wave because even after a few opponent boosts it can still take a hit usually.

 

[camo pumpkin]

Ferroseed doesn't have anything over Forretress besides Water resist which isn't hard to put on a stall team in the first place (look at alomomola.) There is no situation where I would want to use Ferroseed as my spiker as well since it has a huge weakness to Knock Off which just flat outs takes away from its bulk, heck even if you lasted long enough to get 3 layers of spikes up you wouldn't have any instant recovery and you don't even stop Blastoise from launching an Aura Sphere at you, and then you lose all your spikes to rapid spin. Forretress can at least Volt Switch out into another teammate and set up more than one hazard. Show me a match where Ferroseed does something that NO OTHER SPIKER can.

Exactly as I stated in the post, the advantage Ferroseed has over other spikers is its ability to have more guaranteed opportunities to set up spikes. Since teams will almost always have a bulky water, and you can switch in on virtually any water, it's really useful to have that reliable source of spikes. Roserade and Chesnaught have problems for example with ice beam on waters and slowking in general. And Forretress doesn't really enjoy switching into scalds. More generally: it's able to comfortably set up on pretty much any typical wall: porygon2, suicune, milotic, roserade, florges, blissey, swampert, whimsicott, vaporeon, tentacruel, umbreon. The other spikers will be comfortable switching in on only a certain subset of these. Protect allows you to scout for aura sphere mega blastoise (in my experience even that is really rare), and if they don't have it then blastoise is just another pokemon to set up spikes on. Iron barbs punishes immediate spinning, though that's in the same vein as rocky helmet chesnaught, since both forego leftovers. In an overall sense, Ferroseed is a better mixed wall than the other spikers due to eviolite and all the others having their base stats incredibly biased in one direction. With its lower HP, I've found leech seed to be strong enough recovery for the most part (in tandem with protect).

And this argument about Forretress both volt switching and setting up more than one hazard is a bit odd since those should be separate cases: the multiple hazards will just be on suicude lead forry (which we all understand is a role ferroseed won't be filling), and you either run two hazards or one hazard and volt switch unless you want to forego gyro ball/rapid spin to make room for volt switch/spikes/SR.

As for replays, here's one that's not incredibly interesting, but shows two useful aspects: ability to switch into p2 safely, iron barbs preventing a cobalion sweep. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-340830208

 

[Pearl]

Agreeing with most of the recent changes with 2 small exceptions, those being Alakazam, which isn't as high in A+ as it should be yet (personally, I'd place it between Suicune and Entei) and Honchkrow, which is weird when you consider I was the one who brought it up to you. However, after playing around with it, I've started to regret some of the statements I made about it; it's true that Honchkrow is rarely pulling off clean sweeps as most people would expect from a Pokemon with Moxie and strong STAB priority, but the truth is that its most common checks, such as Cobalion and Mega Aerodactyl, are really easy to overload and, on top of that, it pairs up incredibly well with some of UU's flavor of the month Pokemon. One of my favorite cores is Focus Sash + Thunder Wave Alakazam and Life Orb Pursuit Honchkrow, with Alakazam working as a neat Aerodactyl lure and Honchkrow using its ability to punch holes on some of balance's staple Alakazam checks like Florges and fat Psychic-types in general.

@ dod's nominations:

Porygon2: Mixed opinion on this one, but all in all I think it should be moved up, as it kind of reminds me of Cresselia, another Pokemon that's currently in B+, in the sense that you can slap it on a lot of teams as a blanket check to half of the metagame but the other half just uses it as set up bait (Suicune, nearly every hazard setter, Snorlax and more), which can end up in some bleak scenarios. With that said though, I've played around with Offensive Porygon2 a little and that set could probably use a little more recognition. It's nothing out of this world, but the extra SpA investment along with Analytic catches a lot of teams off guard (Pokemon like Cobalion and other Fighting-types are getting 2HKOd at worse by the appropriate move), although it's also true that it does forfeit the ability to check some stronger threats such as Kyurem.

Slowking: Personally, I'm a big fan of this one, but B+ probably reflects its role in the metagame quite well already (I'm not opposed to moving it up though). It's an hybrid between bulky Water-types and bulky Psychic-types, with some interesting tools that make it an unique Pokemon overall. Still, it's worth keeping in mind that offensive Slowking sets are quite underrated in general; AV (with or without Future Sight) and Choice Specs are both unexplored options on current balance teams, even with Alakazam as an offensive Psychic-type Pokemon around. And speaking of the latter, fat variants of Slowking are probably among the most solid answers in the tier to Alakazam, which helps its case I guess, so even if it doesn't move up to A-, I'd still bump it up a little in B+.

Darmanitan: Disagreeing with moving it up. I've used it a little myself and I believe it's ok in B- for the role it performs. Balance teams over-prepare like crazy for physical Fire-type nukes due to Entei's presence and both Mienshao and Hydreigon bring more to the table as Choice Scarf users. It doesn't even obliterate offense as hard as it seems, considering those kind of teams resort to Salamence, Gyarados, Suicide Lead Aerodactyl and Swampert a lot, which means Darmanitan is not spamming Flare Blitz freely without getting punished for it. By the way DaSpoofy, writing a needlessly pretty post explaining what a Pokemon does isn't really an "argument" to move a Pokemon up; keep that in mind for the sake of this thread please.

Aromatisse: Limited to full-on Stall teams, but even then it's a lot better than people in this thread make it seem because of its ability to perfectly counter Sableye, courtesy of its ability, as well as having a much better match up against Krookodile and other physically offensive Dark-, Dragon- and Fighting-type Pokemon than Florges. It could be moved down though, considering it's easily the most one dimensional Pokemon in the whole tier. Watch me nominating this Pokemon to the top of the rankings once Mew drops back to UU, but hopefully we'll still have to wait some time until that happens.

Cresselia: Not really mentioned in dodmen's post, but I like this Pokemon a fair amount and it hurts me seeing people advertising bad sets. Thunder Wave + Lunar Dance support is crazy good; it works similarly to Porygon2 (as I've already mentioned above), but Lunar Dance support helps it differentiating itself as a glue on balance squads. Probably not worth moving up an entire rank, but I sort of agree that its too low in B+ right now.

Not commenting on the last two nominations due to lack of experience.

Two really quick nominations of my own:

Mega Sceptile to the top of A+ (edit: agreeing with Sam. I might have exaggerated a little on this one. Bottom of A+ is fine I guess): Controversial, I know, but this one has been stalled for too long know and it's time to face it: this Pokemon is easily the second best Mega Evolution in UU right now. Proof of that is how it's been performing in SPL (really small sample size, but it's still meaningful nonetheless) and how much the metagame appreciates fast offensive Pokemon that don't really care about paralysis (Sash + Thunder Wave Alakazam isn't that common yet, but it's something that people who splash Aerodactyl on their teams as a soft check should take into account). By the way, I still haven't tried it out myself, but I know Hogg has used Swords Dance Sceptile to some success, which peeked my interested. If anyone else has experience with that I'd like them to speak up here if possible n_n

Mandibuzz to B: Frankly, I can't understand why this one has such a low rank. The stallbreaker set used in Aerolyn might be out of flavor by now, but (Specially Defensive) Defog sets do amazingly well against Alakazam Spikes, which is one of the most dominant archetypes at the moment. At least I find myself resorting a lot more to this Pokemon than other Flying-type Defog users.

Still a little too early to push for these Pokemon to be bumped up, but I'm calling it here for reference: Diancie and Milotic are going to be two of the premier defensive Pokemon in the tier; their ability to provide teams with role hybridization is nearly unmatched, so I'm making an appeal for people to give them a try.

 

[Sam]

I knew a Mega Sceptile nom was coming up and I agree it can move up, but top of A+ is too high. It's a great mon but I feel it's somewhat matchup reliant to jump up that far. And while it will absolutely terrorize offensive teams to a degree but it relies on spamming Leaf Storm too much and that gives teams chances to set-up or fire off a strong hit. This isn't a problem for more balance-oriented teams but I find Mega Sceptile pretty difficult to fit on teams that aren't extremely offensive, meaning the free turns given to the opponent are a little more costly. Top of A/bottom of A+ is where I would put it.

 

[tehy]

My position is that M-scept, in a couple crucial ways, is kinda dong.

Firstly, it sucks at mega evolving. Like, against certain SR leads it does well, but people don't actually lead SR leads anymore. Instead they lead choice fire-types and other stuff that makes me not want to lead sceptile (even with the neutrality it's still a bad idea). So I end up not mega evolving it, and suddenly the opponent is threatening to Volt on me and my immunity isn't immune yet (and probably won't be for a while, since if you come into the volt you'll be forced out next turn.) There's certainly other megas that need their mega speed to function offensively, and sceptile doesn't suffer as much in that regard, but defensively it's a real bummer.

Also, it gets hard walled by a couple of things, most notably Blissey. Yeah that isn't the end of the world, but sometimes even with good team building (I hope, shouts to the frens who passed), it can feel like Sceptile is dead weight from team preview.

Aside from this it is pretty good but, eh. Not sure about move up / not because I don't really contribute to these rankings but here's my 2 cents.

Edit: yea now that I think the difficulty might've been more of a function of my teams (I still appreciate the passings though)

 

[kokoloko]

yeah sceptile is flavor of the month but it's not that good at the end of the day. it's pretty one dimensional given that it's SD set still loses to special walls and while I don't agree that it's hard to mega evolve it, it really does blow how you lack the electric immunity until you do. it's also not that strong outside of storm, and if you're spamming that, you better be well equipped to handle setup mons.

 

[Bushtush]

I can agree mega scep isnt as good as its given the credit for; its very over rated in many senses. Its special attack isnt something to laugh at yes, but compared to the vast amount of bulk the meta seems to carry around, it doesnt really do much. Walled by too much of the meta. Wish its physical attack was just a bit higher, would be a much more fficent mon. But other than that, as the guys above me stated, i feel it is overrated even though it seems to be getting a lot of spotlight

 

[teal6]

A+ mid is where I'd put Sceptile. I use it a lot because it's one of the few mons that can do all the things it does. It benefits lately from Beedrill being less common, as Bee was a pretty good offensive switchin if you catch a grass move. However, Pursuit MAero and to a lesser extent Escavalier, trends that hurt Bee, also hurt Sceptile so there is that.

As the person who has used Scep the most in SPL (I think), I can say that it offers a ton in one slot. Outspeeds Zam / soft checks Sableye (forces Recover spam while not being outstalled by Wisp) / Thunder Wave deterrant / Bulky Water check / Outspeeds and OHKOs Cobalion / Not ultra weak to hazards (as a grounded non SR resist its hurt by all of them, but Scep rarely needs high HP to perform well is what I mean) / Aqua Jet (Daunt) check / Scald switchin

Scep has some hard counters if running the special set, like Florges which is a bit more popular now (Calm set) to beat Zam better. So that's definitely a knock against it, but overall, the sheer amount of utility one can get out of a Sceptile slot means that it's often worth it especially on offensive teams. It doesn't let momentum down like a lot of other stuff that fills similar roles, and in such a fast and hard hitting metagame like current UU that's absolutely vital. If this was UU of say, pre-Zapdos (pre-UU open) where bulkier, slower paced teams ruled the day I would say that Sceptile isn't that good and that'd be reflected in usage. But right now it's one of the best Mega choices.

 

[Threw]

K here's a nom

Shaymin for A-

Shaymin is one of the most difficult Pokemon to prepare for in UU because of its very solid straight 100 base stats and its phenomenal special movepool. Between Earth Power, Psychic, and Dazzling Gleam, there are pretty much no ways to defensively check this thing, meaning it destroys passive teams and against offense forces the opponent to either out-predict you so he can safely switch in a check or sack something - in other words, this thing often guarantees a KO or at least massive damage if afforded a free switch-in. But perhaps even more important than this is that Shaymin has the unique potential to destroy Florges, which is, for the most part, what balance teams use as their Shaymin check, thanks to the huge SpDef drop Seed Flare has a very good chance to cause, which turns Florges into a 2HKO at the very worst. It has access to instant recovery in Synthesis and a brilliant ability in Natural Cure, making it a low-maintenance mon that requires very little support and is therefore highly splashable. Shaymin should be considered for a spot on every balance and BO squad simply by virtue of its typing, since most of the all-around checks people love to use for a number of offensive threats, such as Swampert, Suicune, and Slowking, are all physically defensive Water-types that it picks clean. Waters in general, whether offensive or bulky, are still very, very prominent in this tier, and Shaymin is a very reliable way to deal with them that doesn’t involve being walled nearly as easily or being nearly as weak to priority as is Mega Sceptile. Grass is not only great typing because it resists the common Water- and Ground-types (and Shaymin has bulk and recovery that let it switch into these attacks), but also because forcing Fire- and Flying-types to constantly come in and out quickly racks up crippling super effective Stealth Rock damage, and nearly everything that you'd think of as a check (Entei, Crobat, Mega Aerodactyl, etc.) is OHKOed by either Seed Flare or a coverage move after SR damage. Shaymin even has access to a number of great utility moves, including Healing Wish, Aromatherapy, and Leech Seed, that further increase the ways it helps a team.

The biggest problem with Shaymin is Seed Flare's low PP as well as its unfortunate accuracy, which mean Shaymin can't exactly afford, if its user has awful luck like me, to click Seed Flare 7 turns in a row hoping for a SpeDef drop on whatever wall it's facing. However, Entei's Sacred Fire shares both of these problems (the accuracy only to an extent), and a -2 SpeDef drop is, for certain Pokemon such as Florges, much more crippling than a burn, so it has the potential to be just as annoying.

I know this thing gives me fits when team building, and it's so easy when building balance or semi-stall to inadvertently make a team that it rips to shreds. Again, offensively checking it is your best option for handling it, which basically forces you to run something like Mega Aerodactyl (but Wing Attack/Aerial Ace doesn't OHKO, while, as I said above, Seed Flare does after SR damage, so tread carefully). Overall, I think a mon that is so dangerous for certain playstyles, requires little to no support, and has such great potential to eliminate its few true common checks and counters is more than deserving of a spot in A-.

E: Yeah I totally forgot Zappy and Escav when I wrote this lol. But at the same time, I would hesitate to say it's hugely outclassed.

 

[Bushtush]

K here's a nom

Shaymin for A-

Shaymin is one of the most difficult Pokemon to prepare for in UU because of its very solid straight 100 base stats and its phenomenal special movepool. Between Earth Power, Psychic, and Dazzling Gleam, there are pretty much no ways to defensively check this thing, meaning it destroys passive teams and against offense forces the opponent to either out-predict you so he can safely switch in a check or sack something - in other words, this thing often guarantees a KO or at least massive damage if afforded a free switch-in. But perhaps even more important than this is that Shaymin has the unique potential to destroy Florges, which is, for the most part, what balance teams use as their Shaymin check, thanks to the huge SpDef drop Seed Flare has a very good chance to cause, which turns Florges into a 2HKO at the very worst. It has access to instant recovery in Synthesis and a brilliant ability in Natural Cure, making it a low-maintenance mon that requires very little support and is therefore highly splashable. Shaymin should be considered for a spot on every balance and BO squad simply by virtue of its typing, since most of the all-around checks people love to use for a number of offensive threats, such as Swampert, Suicune, and Slowking, are all physically defensive Water-types that it picks clean. Waters in general, whether offensive or bulky, are still very, very prominent in this tier, and Shaymin is a very reliable way to deal with them that doesn’t involve being walled nearly as easily or being nearly as weak to priority as is Mega Sceptile. Grass is not only great typing because it resists the common Water- and Ground-types (and Shaymin has bulk and recovery that let it switch into these attacks), but also because forcing Fire- and Flying-types to constantly come in and out quickly racks up crippling super effective Stealth Rock damage, and nearly everything that you'd think of as a check (Entei, Crobat, Mega Aerodactyl, etc.) is OHKOed by either Seed Flare or a coverage move after SR damage. Shaymin even has access to a number of great utility moves, including Healing Wish, Aromatherapy, and Leech Seed, that further increase the ways it helps a team.

The biggest problem with Shaymin is Seed Flare's low PP as well as its unfortunate accuracy, which mean Shaymin can't exactly afford, if its user has awful luck like me, to click Seed Flare 7 turns in a row hoping for a SpeDef drop on whatever wall it's facing. However, Entei's Sacred Fire shares both of these problems (the accuracy only to an extent), and a -2 SpeDef drop is, for certain Pokemon such as Florges, much more crippling than a burn, so it has the potential to be just as annoying.

I know this thing gives me fits when team building, and it's so easy when building balance or semi-stall to inadvertently make a team that it rips to shreds. Again, offensively checking it is your best option for handling it, which basically forces you to run something like Mega Aerodactyl (but Wing Attack/Aerial Ace doesn't OHKO, while, as I said above, Seed Flare does after SR damage, so tread carefully). Overall, I think a mon that is so dangerous for certain playstyles, requires little to no support, and has such great potential to eliminate its few true common checks and counters is more than deserving of a spot in A-.

It does do a a decent amount as an offensive mon, however I feel that its cons outweigh its pros. As you stated yourself, its low pp from SeedFlare isnt very good, and without its drops its 100 base spatkk isnt doing it any good favors. Its almost always forced to run an offensive set, as a bulky set isnt very good. Synthesis also has low PP, and it cant run Rest( well it can but isnt recommended) as it loses you momentum and forces you to have to hard switch. Its grass UU counterpart, Whismicott, can do a lot of the things Shaymin does with a LO set while supporting a very good speed stat and give accessibility to Prankster Encore, Stun Spores, etc. Furthermore, its movepool, while being quite vast, only has a few moves that are necessary to hit the meta, which essentially makes its once "vast" move pool very limited. It doesn't get much usage, and i think this is mainly the reason why. I like Shaymin where it is currently

 

[lucqq]

Although I agree that Shaymin is a super potent offensive threat, I can't help but disagree with the fact that it has "no ways" to defensively check. To be honest, with the Zam drop, Shaymin has a lot more viable checks than before, with Escavalier being one the most versatile Pokemon in the tier, while also being able to defensively wall Shaymin quite hard, making Shaymin a lot less potent than it used to be. Even Bronzong hard walls Shaymin completely, and although the Zam drop didn't faze its usage all that much, it's gotten increasingly popular due to how effective Pursuit Aero is. Zapdos dropping also hurt Shaymin's effectiveness too, because it just stalls out seed flare and takes the other hits quite well - metagame trends have not been nice to Shaymin, and it hasn't had anything positive going for it that it didn't have several months ago. It's just become easier to check.

Lastly, this may be controversial, but in my opinion, Shaymin being the same rank as Mega-Sceptile is pretty criminal, as it's so much stronger offensively, and utility wise. Shaymin provides 0 useful utility apart from Healing Wish, and although it gets aroma and leech seed, Roserade and even Whimsicott severely outclass Shaymin as a defensive grass type with a support role. While Sceptile offers speed control, power AND a volt switch absorber. Shaymin can't even check Suicune properly, because of Seed Flare's low PP. 100 SpA is also pretty underwhelming. Roserade has 125, and although Seed Flare is strong, but coming off a Base 100 doesn't make it overwhelming. In terms of power, an LO Leaf Storm from a Roserade is so much more powerful, while Roserade can even put up Spikes/T Spikes and be a much better scald absorber due to it's typing and bulk. Rotom-Mow provides a ground resist, momentum, trick. The list goes on and on.

Shaymin may have a jazzy movepool, but it is the LAST grass mon I would consider when making my team, as it has hardly any utility and as a grass type Pokemon, it's hugely outclassed.

Shaymin does not deserve to be A-.

 

[Hogg]

Eh, I think Shaymin is honestly not all that great in this meta. M-Aero is everywhere, as is M-Sceptile, Florges and Entei are still pretty ascendant, Esca and Zam are both problematic for it. It has decent bulk and Seed Flare is cool when it gets drops, but it still doesn't change the fact that Grass isn't a very good offensive typing and relying on an 85% accuracy move as its main STAB hurts too. It can break through some of its counters, which makes it a pain to check, but the same is true for other members of B+ like Kyurem and Mega-Houndoom. Keep it where it is IMO.

EDIT: Also Zapdos says lol to Seed Flare's PP...

 

[Kyuzeth]

Florges: A+ to A

Uh... could you elaborate on your nomination? One-liners are not quite appreciated in threads like this. What arguments do you have for Florges dropping to A?

Just so my own post isn't a one-liner, I do agree with Shaymin staying in B+. Sure, it's got great coverage, but its power can be somewhat underwhelming, it's easily PP stalled and there's just more dangerous Grass-types out there, particuarly Mega Sceptile. That mono Grass-type doesn't really do it many favors, either. Keep Shaymin B+.

I'd also like to back up Mega Sceptile rising to mid-A+. A simply excellent Mega Evolution choice right now considering recent metagame shifts, packs a good deal of versatility, boasts amazing Speed (only outsped by MAero) that can be tailored nature-wise to your team's needs (Timid for optimal revenge killing, Modest to hit a shitload harder; both work very well), has a neat Special Attack stat with high-power moves and boasts Lightning Rod to absorb any Electric-typemoves (useful to catch paralysis and make this thing brutally powerful). Overall, an extremely solid choice right now that deserves to rise to A+.

 

[Pearl]

quick nominations.

just noticed that this one mon is missing from the VR thread while teambuilding which shouldn't really be the case because it's a lot more viable than some stuff in the lower ranks. it also benefits (to an extent) from zam's drop. Uxie to C/C+; fat psychic-type with access to some tools that separate it from cress (sr, u-turn, knock off and memento. the latter is good on rain/sun squads). works as a nice blanket check to a lot of physical mons (including maero, coba and mence) and even alakazam due to access to twave while having SR as a plus, which helps with role hybridization. i've seen it working on some squads and believe it could use some love, but not too much either cause it has even less offensive presence than cress, although u-turn mitigates that weakness a little

on the topic of situational fat psychic-types still, you could also consider adding Musharna to C- because it does cm pass quite nicely. it's an hybrid between cress and espyjump (trades the latter's speed for a lot more bulk, which is usually better if you plan on cm passing anyway) and while i haven't used it myself despite wanting to for a while now, i've seen that users: dmt and ivotefortrumplol have some experience with it

another nom i have in mind is madre (Blissey) up to B because that mon is a savage and shits on nearly every special threat, making it one of stall's staples and an option to consider on fat balance teams (idt i'd ever do that myself but the option is there nonetheless) and i don't think B- does justice to it at all

 

[DavidDMS]

My nominations are for Escavalier and Spiritomb to A rank. Alakazam is currently a big threat to many Pokemon in the tier, and having a strong pursuit trapper to break its sash is extremely useful to teams that are weak against it. AV Escavalier can comfortably switch into Focus Blasts, and then use pursuit. Spiritomb is immune to psychic STAB and focus blast. It also has sucker punch to pick off weakened opponents.

My next nomination is Chestnaught to A-. It is one of the few Pokemon that does not lose half of its health to Crawdaunt's STAB moves, and it can beat Bounce DDance Gyarados 1v1 with spiky shield. Chestnaught can also lay spikes, giving its offensive team mates more potential to sweep. Choice scarf/band/specs users can easily be outplayed by spiky shield, and it can punish Pokemon such as M-Beedrill that use U-turn. All in all I feel that Chestnaught is not getting the full recognition it deserves.

 

[Highways]

LOL, Spiritomb and Escavalier to A Rank? LMFAO
Sableye is an A Rank, and it is very annoying... But why did Spiritomb and Escavalier would be A Rank? Spiritomb has a GIANT Weakness to Florges and Whimsicott, both are very used, and Escavalier is good, but A Rank is too much for it... It's weakness to Fire-Type moves is ridiculous... It can't be A Rank...
And... Chesny isn't so good. It can be used in Balance, only Balance, B is not the perfect rank to it, i think that is B+...

@Edit: Spiritomb is Unranked because it is trash, so A Rank is a high jump to it...

 

[DavidDMS]

LOL, Spiritomb and Escavalier to A Rank? LMFAO
Sableye is an A Rank, and it is very annoying... But why did Spiritomb and Escavalier would be A Rank? Spiritomb has a GIANT Weakness to Florges and Whimsicott, both are very used, and Escavalier is good, but A Rank is to much for it... It's weakness to Fire-Type moves is ridiculous... It can't be A Rank...
And... Chesny isn't so good. It can be used in Balance, only Balance, B is not the perfect rank to it, i think that is B+...

@Edit: Spiritomb is Unranked because it is trash, so A Rank is a high jump to it...

LMAO. Some dreams will never become a reality lol.