Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

[5gen]

So I've been using two variations of hazard stack Crustle; Focus Sash+Weak Armor and Sturdy+Custap. I wanted to test these two sets because Rampardos was brought up previously in the VR, a pokemon which just beat Sturdy Crustle. Basically with Focus Sash+Weak Armor, Crustle is able to live a hit from Rapardos and outspeed next turn, so it can set up more hazards.

After doing some testing, I can say Sash Weak Armor Crustle is an underwhelming set. This set is niche in itself, I thought it could function as well as Sturdy Custap, but it can't. First off, Weak Armor Crustle can only get a speed boost from getting hit by physical attacks, so special ones prevent it from activating. Physical attacks also decrease it's def by 1, so leads like Rock Blast Golem can just beat it with 3 hits. Overall, Custap Crustle is the better option because it just functions in more situations.

crustle replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-359851320
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-359849204
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-359846634

B-->B+
Basculin has gotten better because of the Crustle drop imo. LO Basculin has always been a nice mon, dealing with fire, rock and ground types as well as luring in grass types and hitting them with Ice Beam. It provides solid priority in Adaptability Aqua Jet, which can revenge a bunch of weakened mons. Basc is a great revenge option for a pokemon that have set up, like SS Crustle, SD Monferno or SD Bouff (if no sub). Honestly the fact that Basculin can put in work vs any team or playstyle is something that is pretty impressive for a B-rank poke.

252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Basculin Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Crustle: 172-203 (68.8 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Basculin Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Monferno: 203-244 (75.4 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Basculin Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Bouffalant: 281-333 (71.5 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Basculin Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 133-156 (45.7 - 53.6%) -- 37.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Basculin Waterfall vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Arbok: 161-192 (49.6 - 59.2%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
4 SpA Life Orb Basculin Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 177-211 (47.3 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[Magnemite]

Crustle added to A-
Glalie from B- to C+
Stunfisk from A+ to A
Drifblim from B- to B

I'd like more discussion on Probopass and Rampardos, as the council was pretty split on them.

 

[5gen]

C+ to B-
The recent Crustle drop gives more reason to use Anti-Lead Rampardos as it can OHKO opposing leads like Crustle, Probopass and Golem through Sturdy because of Mold Breaker. Ramp also has the stats and moves (Head Smash, Superpower, Surf) to damage teams heavily early game if it gets a favorable lead.

The downside of using Anti-Lead Rampardos is that when people see Ramp in team preview, it easily becomes a risky play of whether you lead it or save in the back because people know Ramp's niche. For example, your opponent has a Golem and a Floatzel on their team. With this, it has already become a mind game whether you lead Rampardos or not (of course you can always lead a different poke than Ramp).

Basically the lead match-up dictates whether Rampardos can be a successful Anti-Lead or not.

Edit: Some Calcs vs Leads
112 SpA Mold Breaker Rampardos Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Golem: 304-360 (100.9 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
144 Atk Mold Breaker Rampardos Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Probopass: 424-500 (130.8 - 154.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
144 Atk Mold Breaker Rampardos Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Crustle: 506-596 (202.4 - 238.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
144 Atk Mold Breaker Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Eviolite Roselia: 322-381 (105.9 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
144 Atk Mold Breaker Rampardos Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Relicanth: 176-208 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Yosp]

C+ to B-
The recent Crustle drop gives more reason to use Anti-Lead Rampardos as it can OHKO opposing leads like Crustle, Probopass and Golem through Sturdy because of Mold Breaker. Ramp also has the stats and moves (Head Smash, Superpower, Surf) to damage teams heavily early game if it gets a favorable lead.

The downside of using Anti-Lead Rampardos is that when people see Ramp in team preview, it easily becomes a risky play of whether you lead it or save in the back because people know Ramp's niche. For example, your opponent has a Golem and a Floatzel on their team. With this, it has already become a mind game whether you lead Rampardos or not (of course you can always lead a different poke than Ramp).

Basically the lead match-up dictates whether Rampardos can be a successful Anti-Lead or not.

I can see perfectly why you think Rampardos should be nominated to a higher rank, the problem is like you said, that in team preview when your opponent observes that you have a Rampardos on your team they quickly assume it for a lead and don't throw Pokemon like Crustle, Probopass, or Golem carelessly at the beginning of the game. Even if the opponent did throw something like Golem as a lead, Rampardos could not one shot it with EQ.(Provided with calcs at the end) Rampardos requires a lot of prediction, his frail defensive stats and poor speed make it easy for it to be revenge killed as it can not switch into any Pokemon's attack. The only Pokemon that Rampardos would take quick action against would have to be Crustle and Probopass if you're not switching in on Earth Power. I think that there are far better Pokemon that could fit for Rampardos' slot without the player having to sacrifice things like speed or defense. However, Rampardos works really good on webs. But, I think that's about it really. It's outspeed and revenged killed (if Scarf) by other common scarfers. In conclusion, I think that Rampardos is fine in the place that it holds currently.

Calcs

252+ SpA Probopass Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Rampardos: 290-342 (86.5 - 102%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Rampardos Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Golem: 270-320 (74.3 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Kaboom]

I can see perfectly why you think Rampardos should be nominated to a higher rank, the problem is like you said, that in team preview when your opponent observes that you have a Rampardos on your team they quickly assume it for a lead and don't throw Pokemon like Crustle, Probopass, or Golem carelessly at the beginning of the game. Even if the opponent did throw something like Golem as a lead, Rampardos could not one shot it with EQ.(Provided with calcs at the end) Rampardos requires a lot of prediction, his frail defensive stats and poor speed make it easy for it to be revenge killed as it can not switch into any Pokemon's attack. The only Pokemon that Rampardos would take quick action against would have to be Crustle and Probopass if you're not switching in on Earth Power. I think that there are far better Pokemon that could fit for Rampardos' slot without the player having to sacrifice things like speed or defense. However, Rampardos works really good on webs. But, I think that's about it really. It's outspeed and revenged killed (if Scarf) by other common scarfers. In conclusion, I think that Rampardos is fine in the place that it holds currently.

Calcs

252+ SpA Probopass Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Rampardos: 290-342 (86.5 - 102%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Rampardos Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Golem: 270-320 (74.3 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It runs surf to OHKO golem.

Roselia to bottom of A+: Roselia is currently having issues maintaining pressure through direct damage and hazards. While toxic spikes is great and the fact theres only two common poison types to absorb it (one being itself) and getting rid of them loses a good amount of momentum, as it needs to be quick to prevent a lets say balance team with no means of getting rid of status from having their grounded mons be permanently on a timer. This is great especially when it has so many Pokemon around to tank both stabs reliably, but at the same time there are a lot of dangerous pokemon that enjoy that free turn on Roselia. It also has poor matchups vs the best spinner and best defogger (cryo and vullaby) and both are far from easy to keep out of the match. Outside of it vs the metagame it has niche competition as a spike stacker vs Quilladin who can safely prevent vullaby from defogging while being one of the best checks to ground types. Lastly the issues of the 2 sets themselves, offensive while sporting better power and sleep powder usually, loses a lot of switch in opportunities for not that much again aside from being a better lead vs Golem and Crustle, while defensive is restricted to hazards majority of the time it gets in, rn I have to say defensive is the reason I'm not asking to drop it more. It has great bulk and can beat defensive swanna among other mons that should theoretically beat it as well as be the best water check in the tier.

 

[Yosp]

Mr. Mime from A to +A

Mr. Mime holds the place for a very good Scarf user and is provided by two spamabble STAB moves being Psychic, and Dazzling Gleam and a non STAB move being Focus Blast which hits Steel types like Probopass rather harsh. Besides this, it has access to Nasty Plot being a detrimental wall-breaker if the opponent lets the player set up. Mr. Mime puts a hold to Chatot's Boomburst with its ability Soundproof or decreases the damage taken by it with its ability Filter. It fits perfectly on offensive teams with two reasons. One being because of its Spammable STAB moves and the other being its move Healing Wish, which provides other sweepers that were crippled before in the game with another chance to finish cleaning. Mr. Mime can also cripple set up sweepers with Trick, locking them into a move.

Ursaring from -A to A

Ursaring holds a nice niche with the combination of Toxic Orb + Quick Feet. As Ursaring out speeds most of the un-boosted meta. Acting as a powerful wall-breaker in most cases with Swords Dance. Ursaring has access to both Close Combat and Crunch besides from Facade. These moves let Ursaring hit Pokemon that it normally wouldn't counter like Probopass, Misdreavus, etc. Ursaring holds a very offensive presence in the meta acting as a powerful cleaner when its checks have low HP. If the player is scared of throwing Ursaring untouched for its Toxic Orb to activate, protect is also an option, but it comes with the cost of not having as strong of an offensive presence as SD Ursaring does.

 

[Yosp]

It runs surf to OHKO golem.

Roselia to bottom of A+: Roselia is currently having issues maintaining pressure through direct damage and hazards. While toxic spikes is great and the fact theres only two common poison types to absorb it (one being itself) and getting rid of them loses a good amount of momentum, as it needs to be quick to prevent a lets say balance team with no means of getting rid of status from having their grounded mons be permanently on a timer. This is great especially when it has so many Pokemon around to tank both stabs reliably, but at the same time there are a lot of dangerous pokemon that enjoy that free turn on Roselia. It also has poor matchups vs the best spinner and best defogger (cryo and vullaby) and both are far from easy to keep out of the match. Outside of it vs the metagame it has niche competition as a spike stacker vs Quilladin who can safely prevent vullaby from defogging while being one of the best checks to ground types. Lastly the issues of the 2 sets themselves, offensive while sporting better power and sleep powder usually, loses a lot of switch in opportunities for not that much again aside from being a better lead vs Golem and Crustle, while defensive is restricted to hazards majority of the time it gets in, rn I have to say defensive is the reason I'm not asking to drop it more. It has great bulk and can beat defensive swanna among other mons that should theoretically beat it as well as be the best water check in the tier.

Oh, forgot about Surf. However, even if it does, like I said. Golem, Probopass, and Crustle will not be thrown as leads leaving Rampardos to stay behind the back or switched out if your opponent's lead was not like the player predicted.

 

[5gen]

I can see perfectly why you think Rampardos should be nominated to a higher rank, the problem is like you said, that in team preview when your opponent observes that you have a Rampardos on your team they quickly assume it for a lead and don't throw Pokemon like Crustle, Probopass, or Golem carelessly at the beginning of the game. Even if the opponent did throw something like Golem as a lead, Rampardos could not one shot it with EQ.(Provided with calcs at the end) Rampardos requires a lot of prediction, his frail defensive stats and poor speed make it easy for it to be revenge killed as it can not switch into any Pokemon's attack. The only Pokemon that Rampardos would take quick action against would have to be Crustle and Probopass if you're not switching in on Earth Power. I think that there are far better Pokemon that could fit for Rampardos' slot without the player having to sacrifice things like speed or defense. However, Rampardos works really good on webs. But, I think that's about it really. It's outspeed and revenged killed (if Scarf) by other common scarfers. In conclusion, I think that Rampardos is fine in the place that it holds currently.

Calcs

252+ SpA Probopass Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Rampardos: 290-342 (86.5 - 102%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Rampardos Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Golem: 270-320 (74.3 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You talked about how Rampardos makes your opponent hesitant to lead their usual leads (i.e Golem) and your pretty much right. But can't that be said about any other lead? Look at common leads in PU right now: Golem, Crustle, Relicanth and Roselia to name a few. If these are seen in team preview, they fall into the same bucket as Ramp, being predicted as lead. Rampardos differentiates itself from other leads because it has the ability to OHKO most of them due to Mold Breaker and base 165 attack. Heck, even base 58 speed is nice for a lead in this tier when you look at PU's leads and their speed investments. Yeah, Rampardos is a predictable lead, but so are other leads and you can take advantage of that (via prediction).

Rampardos Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-360355297 -Ramp does it's job (turn 2 expected Lumi)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-360376616 -Ramp does it's job
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-360383419 -When Ramp doesn't lead

 

[Magnemite]

You talked about how Rampardos makes your opponent hesitant to lead their usual leads (i.e Golem) and your pretty much right. But can't that be said about any other lead? Look at common leads in PU right now: Golem, Crustle, Relicanth and Roselia to name a few. If these are seen in team preview, they fall into the same bucket as Ramp, being predicted as lead. Rampardos differentiates itself from other leads because it has the ability to OHKO most of them due to Mold Breaker and base 165 attack. Heck, even base 58 speed is nice for a lead in this tier when you look at PU's leads and their speed investments. Yeah, Rampardos is a predictable lead, but so are other leads and you can take advantage of that (via prediction).

Rampardos Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-360355297- Ramp does it's job (turn 2 expected Lumi)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-360356962- When opponent knows how to deal with Rampardos
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-360362652-Showcases -Ramp destruction
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-360365610-Showcases -Benefits of Ramp predictions

the only one of these that is even usually used as a lead is golem, the others either have other sets that they frequently use (crustle) or don't run specific lead sets at all (roselia, non-rain relicanth).

the main reason i don't like rampardos is that its opportunity cost is pretty big; if it doesn't get to accomplish its intended purpose of stopping an opponent's lead, then it's way worse than if you had just run crustle or golem. however, as has been mentioned, it's pretty hard to even get it to accomplish this, as it's so reliant on your opponent not predicting the obvious. moreover, crustle and golem can still do well even out of the lead slot, whereas because of its frailty and inferior typing compared to them rampardos struggles in this situation. you say that you can just predict them to lead something else and then not lead rampardos, but if this is the case why not pick a lead that's actually decent if it doesn't get to lead? moreover, if you predict wrong and they actually do lead their hazard setter as you don't lead rampardos, its usefulness will be hindered even further because it won't even be able to have its sash intact. crustle and golem obviously suffer this problem too, but way, way more things can just flat-out ohko rampardos compared to the other two, especially crustle.

basically, i haven't used rampardos, but i'm inclined to disagree with it rising because it's sort of a one trick pony that requires a lot just to even pull off its trick.

 

[CharizardIsMeh]

Probopass : A- --> B+

Probo sucks. It gets SMASHED by 6 of the 9 S and A+ ranks mons (namely Floatzel, Monferno, Machoke, Stout, Pig, Golem), which is simply too much (also Rotom-F can beat it by wearing it down with Volt Switch, and Roselia sometimes plays HP Fighting, and Giga Drain + HP fighting kills Probo). Also, to show how Probo is passive as fuck, it's not sure to OHKO Pawniard, even after rocks, and don't forget that Pawn has a terrible special bulk. Also, now you'd much prefer Metang, Vullaby or Colbur Gourgeist as your Normal resists, as they're much more solid than Probo : they're neutral to Fighting, Metang do more damage to Probo with EQ than what Probo gives in return, and in the case of Vullaby or Gourg, they have reliable recovery. All in all, Probo deserves a drop.

 

[MZ]

Probopass : A- --> B+

Probo sucks. It gets SMASHED by 6 of the 9 S and A+ ranks mons (namely Floatzel, Monferno, Machoke, Stout, Pig, Golem), which is simply too much (also Rotom-F can beat it by wearing it down with Volt Switch, and Roselia sometimes plays HP Fighting, and Giga Drain + HP fighting kills Probo). Also, to show how Probo is passive as fuck, it's not sure to OHKO Pawniard, even after rocks, and don't forget that Pawn has a terrible special bulk. Also, now you'd much prefer Metang, Vullaby or Colbur Gourgeist as your Normal resists, as they're much more solid than Probo : they're neutral to Fighting, Metang do more damage to Probo with EQ than what Probo gives in return, and in the case of Vullaby or Gourg, they have reliable recovery. All in all, Probo deserves a drop.

It's not that there arent legit reasons that probo is bad but this awful reasoning just isn't it. For one thing, Floatzel and Golem aren't smashing a mon when its two best items are Passho Berry and Air Balloon, Stoutland isn't smashing it when its point is to make spamming return punishable and a -1 stoutland locked into superpower is incredibly abusable right now, and the max speed timid set has become more interesting recently for annoying things like golem and Crustle. Then there's the fact that it does check Rotom-F, which is glossed over because it's worn down by volt but the important part is you can check it with your rocker without being a momentum suck like camerupt or clefairy. You aren't supposed to beat roselia or machoke, you're supposed to be able to pivot on a ton of the meta so that the things probopass will check (which is at least 2 mons on a lot of teams) you can just pivot and volt on. As a normal resist it's totally legit, the main downside is that Ursaring will bone you harder but the point is for more offensive teams you have just the right amount of annoying choiced stoutland and chatot and you're still a dodrio stop. Trapping is just another boon that people are pointing out as a general flaw. I wouldn't rely on it to remove all of my opponent's Steels but being able to get Pawniard in and remove it is quite nice if you want to sweep with something like RP regice. Or you could just run Sturdy Probopass, that's also fine. And the whole "oh you can't OHKO Pawn after rocks that sucks" thing kind of ignores the fact that Pawniard can't switch into said rocks again even if it does take the hit so there's the Pawniard removed for your SubSalac Simipour anyway.

Yes, a lot of threats which beat it like Machoke and Monferno are more common. That sucks for Probo, it's absolutely gotten worse. But if we have to start listing the mons that beat it, why not take a look at the things it can set up rocks and slow pivot out of, or just generally don't do well against it. Rotom-F, Pawniard, Dodrio, Audino, Stoutland (this doesnt smash probo), Vullaby, Chatot, Leafeon kinda, Jumpluff, etc. That's about as large of a list as yours from S to A considering that some of those I wouldnt call probo smashers. As the guy playing devil's advocate for something that got worse but not as worse as people are making it out to be, I have to point out that it's much better in practice, where it checks some things, pivots around, and provides general momentum for a team even if it isn't picking up KOs, than on paper where it looks like it loses to everything. And there's still certain things like max speed Taunt actually being totally legit because you can still check birds and the like but also prevent vullaby from defogging and audino from wishing and whatever that people just arent even touching on. The bandwagon is strong here.

Mightyena is the worst mon in its rank right now, I'd be fine with down to B but ik some people like this thing. The problem with snowballing for a moxie boost is that it's a mon which in general you can prep for without trying as long as you're prepared to not just lose to Murkrow and Pawniard and play around the moxie once you see it at team preview. It's not a totally worthless mon but it's really only at its best versus full out HO and then struggles with anything else. Seeing Monferno at team preview is pretty much death to this mon. There's a good amount of relatively bulky faster things like Gabite and Leafeon or solid defensive checks like quilladin and even audino can switch into this and win lol, priority users in general have shot up because so many of the best offensive mons are frail without a means around it, and I just find that it requires a lot more support than anything else in its rank except maybe ninjask and articuno which have way better payoffs. I see it more like Kingler which has that cleaning potential with agility and can hit pretty hard but is all around worse than its counterparts. Except a strong priority move pre-setup for faster things so more like Basculin?

 

[Teddeh]

Hi! it's me again with my (or what it seems like) annual nomination for machoke to move to S rank. Because Dell made me do this
So... what's new? in between my last nomination, I've had the chance to try out the tank set with rest-talk, honestly it never ever dies yet checks every neutral physical and special attacker (as long as you keep evio) whilst also spreading confusion and knocking off evios / forms of recovery. Honestly, it's even better than the all out attacker set i was using previously and that's saying a lot. But enough about my personal experiences, I mean to talk more about how the tier has shaped itself around machoke.

Machoke has found a way onto nearly every team, with there being so many teams building teams around the idea of paralysis and machoke or in some form or way, being on over half the teams i've faced on ladder. Without recycling what I have said about machoke before, I don't think that speed is at all an issue here and I feel similarities to how it works in the way throh used to work. Not being able to 3hit ko with a move that wasn't super-effective, spreading knock off + confusion with sleep talk rolls, nothing wants to switch in unless it's gourgeist-XL which can only be on a limited number of teams and its easily taken care of by every ice type in the tier along with most special attackers. Better yet, rest-talk set can play the "you don't force me out straight away" card because it can absorb a will-o and rest it off later on in the match. Secondly, machoke can diversify its set to even beat gourgeist with the option of a fast sub-bulk up variant of machoke which would in fact set up on gourgeist has been gaining popularity.

All in all, the way the tier is slowly forming its way around machoke, I can honestly say I fully think that Machoke is the best pokemon in the tier and not having it in S is just wrong. It does so much in the way of defensive and offensive presence, whilst also having a way around its checks and counters whilst also having 2 excellent abilities, I honestly can't see any reason not to have it in S anymore.

 

[Anty]

Rn I agree with Machoke to S rank. Its offensive abilities are very impressive, especially due to its nice natural bulk, however what pushes it to S rank imo is its role on bulkier teams. Restalk Machoke is great at reliably checking or countering important Pokemon like Monferno, Relicanth, and Golem, or Rotom-f, Roselia, and Regice dependant on whats majorly invested in. Though it doesn't have too many resistances, its worth noting Flying, Fairy, and Psychic non-STAB coverage is very rare, and also outside of Mr Mime and possibly Murkrow, bulkier teams don't have issues switching into most Flying or Psychic's. Its most important attribute is more easily seen in battle, being its ability to create momentum as it is one of the few defensive Pokemon which offense is afraid to switch into, which can be very refreshing for teams which can otherwise get overwhelmed by offensive Pokemon. G2 Teddeh vs R0ady does show this, as Machoke could easily come in and pressure r0ady's offensive Pokemon, and even if r0ady had a more reliable check to Machoke, like Dodrio, that doesn't stop Machoke from coming in and spamming its attacking moves outside of very smart double switches. Even HO can be very annoyed by it, as it can check some of the best set up sweepers right now like SD Monferno and SS Huntail and they are often pressured into situations where they are forced to sack something to weaken Machoke. Bulkier teams may seem to be getting weaker now players are preparing more with stuff like NP mime, but so more balanced teams seem to be getting more popular which can suitably fit Machoke (additionally other balanced teams struggle with Machoke). The main problem with Machoke though, is its vulnerability to Spikes, and Quilladin can even set up on it, however for balanced teams to work they should be running hazard removal, so Machoke doesn't exactly need an unreasonable amount of support. 4 Attacks Machoke is still very annoying to deal with outside of something like Gourgeist, as even stuff like Colbur Grumpig then loses its ability to switch into something important later, and Machoke can be quite hard to kill as it can live stuff like Scarf Mime's Psychic.

Recently, I have built a few very offensive teams, and the main thing that has been stopping them from shredding through balance was mainly Machoke managing to defensively check things while giving me an offensive thread which is very hard to play around. Though I don't think its quite as centralising as other S-ranks, I certainly believe it is one of the scariest Pokemon to face and one of the best Pokemon to use for pretty every play style, thus making me support a rise to S.

 

[5gen]

Rn I agree with Machoke to S rank. Its offensive abilities are very impressive, especially due to its nice natural bulk, however what pushes it to S rank imo is its role on bulkier teams. Restalk Machoke is great at reliably checking or countering important Pokemon like Monferno, Relicanth, and Golem, or Rotom-f, Roselia, and Regice dependant on whats majorly invested in. Though it doesn't have too many resistances, its worth noting Flying, Fairy, and Psychic non-STAB coverage is very rare, and also outside of Mr Mime and possibly Murkrow, bulkier teams don't have issues switching into most Flying or Psychic's. Its most important attribute is more easily seen in battle, being its ability to create momentum as it is one of the few defensive Pokemon which offense is afraid to switch into, which can be very refreshing for teams which can otherwise get overwhelmed by offensive Pokemon. G2 Teddeh vs R0ady does show this, as Machoke could easily come in and pressure r0ady's offensive Pokemon, and even if r0ady had a more reliable check to Machoke, like Dodrio, that doesn't stop Machoke from coming in and spamming its attacking moves outside of very smart double switches. Even HO can be very annoyed by it, as it can check some of the best set up sweepers right now like SD Monferno and SS Huntail and they are often pressured into situations where they are forced to sack something to weaken Machoke. Bulkier teams may seem to be getting weaker now players are preparing more with stuff like NP mime, but so more balanced teams seem to be getting more popular which can suitably fit Machoke (additionally other balanced teams struggle with Machoke). The main problem with Machoke though, is its vulnerability to Spikes, and Quilladin can even set up on it, however for balanced teams to work they should be running hazard removal, so Machoke doesn't exactly need an unreasonable amount of support. 4 Attacks Machoke is still very annoying to deal with outside of something like Gourgeist, as even stuff like Colbur Grumpig then loses its ability to switch into something important later, and Machoke can be quite hard to kill as it can live stuff like Scarf Mime's Psychic.

Recently, I have built a few very offensive teams, and the main thing that has been stopping them from shredding through balance was mainly Machoke managing to defensively check things while giving me an offensive thread which is very hard to play around. Though I don't think its quite as centralising as other S-ranks, I certainly believe it is one of the scariest Pokemon to face and one of the best Pokemon to use for pretty every play style, thus making me support a rise to S.

I just want to add to your note about offensive teams vs Machoke. I've been using a couple HO teams for about a week and have also noticed how hard it can be to kill Machoke. The main problem offensive teams face when dealing with Choke (I feel) is it's sheer bulk and ability to spam D-Punch freely, as the frail nature of Hyper Offense teams allow it to. To beat Machoke on offense, you need to run at least one or two dedicated mons that can dent/kill it which is a problem because it limits you in teambuilding. Even with those two Choke checks, I find myself sacking at least one poke every time I have to dent it, as not many things can OHKO it.

Basically, Machokes bulk and spammable move in Dynamic Punch is very problematic for offensive teams.

One last thing I would like to add is that the S-Ranks, Floatzel and Rotom-F, are in my opinion easier to deal with for HO teams to beat because they're much frailer and offensive teams can run scarfers like Chatot or Simisage to deal with them. Granted, they can be more problematic than Machoke in some situations.

 

[RawMelon]

I know Roselia has recently dropped to the bottom of A+ but I feel as if that still doesn't accurately represent it's performance in this meta. So with that being said I'm nominating Roselia from A+ --> A

In previous metas Roselia was amazing at what it did, setting up hazards, checking most water types and just being a nice sponge for special attacks but in today's meta it struggles to find a spot on a lot of teams. The way the meta has been progressing Roselia simply isn't worth the slot as much as it used to be for multiple reasons.

1. It doesn't set up on much
If you intend on using Roselia your water check, you'll generally have to keep it fairly healthy and can't switch in on many other random attacks. So I've found that by relying so heavily on saving Roselia to check water types it usually doesn't get to set up spikes throughout the game. It spends most of it's turns trying to heal up after switching in on whatever move Politoed, Floatzel, Basculin, Simipour or whatever just threw out and doesn't really get to spike all that often without leaving the rest of your team at risk of getting beaten by Floatzel, Basculin, etc. The increase in the physicality of teams also hasn't done Rose any favors making it harder to switch in on even non-super effective hits. Even the popular special attackers in this meta (ice types like Rotom-F, Regice, Articuno, Lapras) manhandle Rose.

2. There are better options
Right now, Quiladin fits on far more teams than Roselia. It's bulk, lack of poison typing, and access to Taunt allows it to check more relevant threats than Rose AND still get up multiple layers of Spikes. Quiladin sets up on every popular Stealth Rock user in the tier (beating Golem AND Stunfisk is huge right now), while preventing them from getting up their own hazards. It can check Machoke (popular mon in this meta) while still setting up Spikes and Taunting to prevent Rest Talk. Most importantly, he fast Taunt set (the good set) allows you to simply Taunt most defoggers and keep up your hazards. Even if you intended on using offensive Rose, this mon just does that role better most games.

Also, the addition of Crustle to the tier gives teams another option for Spikes, which gives you even less reason to use Roselia.

3. It's not hard to remove spikes that Rose sets
Sure Rose can beat a few of the popular defoggers such as Prinplup and Lumineon reliably, but the emergence of Cryogonal has made this mon MUCH worse as it spins without fearing any attack that Rose carries, bar Sleep Powder. Vullaby is still a pain Roselia since Sleep Powder doesn't affect it and it can take any of its attacks relatively easily. So if the goal of my team is to spike stack for my other mons to sweep Roselia simply isn't reliable enough to do this.

So Roselia isn't a bad mon at all and it still is worthy of A rank. It certainly has a niche being the most reliable Toxic Spikes setter and a decent water check but for what it's intended to be used for (spike stacking) it's time we dropped it down a rank.

 

[theDSC]

Probopass : A- --> B+

Probo sucks. It gets SMASHED by 6 of the 9 S and A+ ranks mons (namely Floatzel, Monferno, Machoke, Stout, Pig, Golem), which is simply too much (also Rotom-F can beat it by wearing it down with Volt Switch, and Roselia sometimes plays HP Fighting, and Giga Drain + HP fighting kills Probo). Also, to show how Probo is passive as fuck, it's not sure to OHKO Pawniard, even after rocks, and don't forget that Pawn has a terrible special bulk. Also, now you'd much prefer Metang, Vullaby or Colbur Gourgeist as your Normal resists, as they're much more solid than Probo : they're neutral to Fighting, Metang do more damage to Probo with EQ than what Probo gives in return, and in the case of Vullaby or Gourg, they have reliable recovery. All in all, Probo deserves a drop.

I don't know why you're using Metang, Gourgeist and Vullaby as comparisons when they don't even do the same thing. Not to mention Probopass has its own strengths that make it stand out. In case you haven't realized, Gourgeist and Vullaby aren't hazard setters, they're supposed to be used for stalling while Probopass is supposed to lay down rocks and act as a pivot. Metang, while it does have more offensive presence, does not offer the same utility, and not to mention it needs it's eviolite to be as bulky as it is.

 

[Rennyjesus]

I would like to add that the tier is physically bulkier and because of that, lower special attacks can be dealing more damage than physical attacks and one proof of that is that specially defensive Stunfisk has been almost totally replaced by Physically defensive Stun, to wall/block a higher portion of the hits on this meta. Then, Modest Probopass is even slightly stronger than timid itemless Float which isn't that bad considering that it can pivot and also that FC+EP has decent coverage like Metang's MM+EQ but Metang will deal less damage in average while also desperately needing to avoid knock off...

 

[Drangonn.]

Simisear to A-

I've used this mon a lot and it fails to disappoint. Considering how specially frail the majority of rock and water types are, and also how easily grass knot destroys them, there are very few switch-ins. The popularity of Grumpig is still an issue, as well as Life Orb recoil, but the ability to fire off nuclear fire blasts makes up for it IMO. Also, it's been seeing a decrease in usage lately (from what I've seen), so fewer teams are prepared for it. Yes, Floatzel outspeeds it, but if Simi is sent in on something not faster than it (or lacking SE priority), something will take major damage. Definetely worth A-.

 

[Akir]

Mightyena is the worst mon in its rank right now, I'd be fine with down to B but ik some people like this thing. The problem with snowballing for a moxie boost is that it's a mon which in general you can prep for without trying as long as you're prepared to not just lose to Murkrow and Pawniard and play around the moxie once you see it at team preview. It's not a totally worthless mon but it's really only at its best versus full out HO and then struggles with anything else. Seeing Monferno at team preview is pretty much death to this mon. There's a good amount of relatively bulky faster things like Gabite and Leafeon or solid defensive checks like quilladin and even audino can switch into this and win lol, priority users in general have shot up because so many of the best offensive mons are frail without a means around it, and I just find that it requires a lot more support than anything else in its rank except maybe ninjask and articuno which have way better payoffs. I see it more like Kingler which has that cleaning potential with agility and can hit pretty hard but is all around worse than its counterparts. Except a strong priority move pre-setup for faster things so more like Basculin?

As someone who likes Mightyena, I have to agree with you. Mightyena's viability is tied pretty directly with how offensive the tier is, and the tier currently is moving more towards balance. Mightyena has no wallbreaking potential outside of pre-emptive Moxie boosts, and a lot of yena's checks are also really common mons like Stunfisk, Monferno, Golem and even Subwillo Rotom-Frost, and a lot of these mons also fit nicely on to standard offense too. Yes, you can pair Mightyena up with another mon that can lure in and break down these checks, but that is a lot of work for a lategame that is almost entirely ineffective against the defensive playstyles that are re-emerging. You have to base a large portion of your team around Mightyena when you could choose a different mon that requires less support to do the same task.

When looking at B, I would honestly say that Drifblim is a much more reliable lategame sweeper atm if only for the facts that Drifblim doesn't have to rely on 50/50s nearly as much and can actually boost stats independent of your opponent being unable to do anything else than sack a mon. Imo Mightyena should be lower than Drifblim at least, and the meta is shifting somewhat away from styles that Mightyena has good matchups against (scarf-heavy metas are good for yena, but the tier is becoming bulkier and bulkier), so I second moving Mightyena to B.

 

[5gen]

A- to A
Simisage is a pretty versatile pokemon that is a able to run a variety of sets successfully because of movepool and stats. Let's take a look at Simisages stat spread: 75/98/63/98/63/101. From it's stats you can tell Sage is one of those frail offensive pokes PU has. What sets it apart from them is it's ability to run different sets well (AoA, Choice Scarf and Nasty Plot mainly).

Simisage Sets

Simisage @ Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- Gunk Shot

Simisage @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Seed Bomb
- Knock Off
- Superpower

Simisage @ Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot

All out Attacker set: With it's All out Attacker set, Simisage is able to function as a wallbreaker and dismantle/weaken opposing teams. Simisage uses Leaf Storm as strong special stab to hit physically defensive mons that switch in like Avalugg or even Crustle. With coverage in Knock Off, Superpower and Gunk Shot, Simisage is able to hit a bunch of mons super-effectively. All in all AoA Sage is pretty good at weakening teams.

Choice Scarf: Choice Scarf Simisage functions as a cleaner and revenge killer on offensive teams. With a Choice Scarf equipped, Simisage reaches 496 speed, outspeeding the entire unboosted PU meta. Along with it's coverage, Simi doesn't have trouble performing it's role.

Nasty Plot: Nasty Plot Simisage is a cool set not much people expect, and it can rip teams apart if set up. NP Sage turns usual counters like Gourgeist or Tangela into set up fodder, and proceeds to break teams. This set can function as a sweeper or stall breaker depending on the team it faces because NP and coverage is hard to stop for slower teams. Also, PU teams are becoming more bulky which makes NP Simisage even better.

Overall Simisage's ability to run a variety of sets well, it's diversity in moves/sets and ability to adapt to meta changes make it an A worthy mon imo.

 

[Magnemite]

Machoke from A+ to S
Mightyena from B+ to B
Mr. Mime from A to A+
Bouffalant from A to A-

order was also updated substantially

 

[MaroGod]

I know Roselia has recently dropped to the bottom of A+ but I feel as if that still doesn't accurately represent it's performance in this meta. So with that being said I'm nominating Roselia from A+ --> A

In previous metas Roselia was amazing at what it did, setting up hazards, checking most water types and just being a nice sponge for special attacks but in today's meta it struggles to find a spot on a lot of teams. The way the meta has been progressing Roselia simply isn't worth the slot as much as it used to be for multiple reasons.

1. It doesn't set up on much
If you intend on using Roselia your water check, you'll generally have to keep it fairly healthy and can't switch in on many other random attacks. So I've found that by relying so heavily on saving Roselia to check water types it usually doesn't get to set up spikes throughout the game. It spends most of it's turns trying to heal up after switching in on whatever move Politoed, Floatzel, Basculin, Simipour or whatever just threw out and doesn't really get to spike all that often without leaving the rest of your team at risk of getting beaten by Floatzel, Basculin, etc. The increase in the physicality of teams also hasn't done Rose any favors making it harder to switch in on even non-super effective hits. Even the popular special attackers in this meta (ice types like Rotom-F, Regice, Articuno, Lapras) manhandle Rose.

2. There are better options
Right now, Quiladin fits on far more teams than Roselia. It's bulk, lack of poison typing, and access to Taunt allows it to check more relevant threats than Rose AND still get up multiple layers of Spikes. Quiladin sets up on every popular Stealth Rock user in the tier (beating Golem AND Stunfisk is huge right now), while preventing them from getting up their own hazards. It can check Machoke (popular mon in this meta) while still setting up Spikes and Taunting to prevent Rest Talk. Most importantly, he fast Taunt set (the good set) allows you to simply Taunt most defoggers and keep up your hazards. Even if you intended on using offensive Rose, this mon just does that role better most games.

Also, the addition of Crustle to the tier gives teams another option for Spikes, which gives you even less reason to use Roselia.

3. It's not hard to remove spikes that Rose sets
Sure Rose can beat a few of the popular defoggers such as Prinplup and Lumineon reliably, but the emergence of Cryogonal has made this mon MUCH worse as it spins without fearing any attack that Rose carries, bar Sleep Powder. Vullaby is still a pain Roselia since Sleep Powder doesn't affect it and it can take any of its attacks relatively easily. So if the goal of my team is to spike stack for my other mons to sweep Roselia simply isn't reliable enough to do this.

So Roselia isn't a bad mon at all and it still is worthy of A rank. It certainly has a niche being the most reliable Toxic Spikes setter and a decent water check but for what it's intended to be used for (spike stacking) it's time we dropped it down a rank.

Bringing this back up as Rawmelon hit the nail on the head with this one and described Roselia perfectly in this meta with no reason given for why it should remain in A+.

Kadabra to A-
Although i personally still really like Kadabra and its still an amazing blanket check against offense the current meta trending more towards Balance and Bulky-Offense has slowly diminished its main role with competition such as Mr. Mime and Grumpig being much more favorable due to their own advantages becoming more and more beneficial,ScarfMr. Mime in particular also being considered a slot on offense due to Healing Wish and checking similar threats.

Edit - Mr. Mime isnt listed with A+ mons

 

[balt2253]

Gourgeist-XL to A
Gourgeist-Xl is a premier physical wall on stall and balance teams in PU. It can check a lot of physical attackers in this meta, including Machoke, Leafeon, physical Floatzel, Golem, Stoutland, Bouffalant, Crustle, and Simisage. It is the best mon in the tier to burn with WoW or set up Leech Seed on most of its switch-ins. Its decent attack combined with priority with Shadow sneak allows it to kill lead Golem as well as pick off weakened frail attackers. Its abilities, while lackluster, allow Gourgeist to Frisk for choice items. Furthermore, unlike most of the other walls in PU, Gourgeist has acess to reliable recovery in Synthesis, which allows it to restore huge chunks of its health when it forces a switch. Its good synergy with other walls in PU, such as Grumpig and Audino, allows it to easily form a solid defensive core. Overall, this mon is paralleled as a physical wall due to its ability to set up burns incredibly easily as well as forcing out common physical attackers such as Machoke and CB Floatzel, to name others.

+2 252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 181-214 (48.3 - 57.2%) -- 46.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 122-144 (32.6 - 38.5%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 153-181 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 134-158 (35.8 - 42.2%) -- 89.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Leafeon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 118-140 (31.5 - 37.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Arbok Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 102-120 (27.2 - 32%) -- 44.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Teddeh]

Rotom-f S -> A+ / A:
For a while now, i've found that rotom-f is just a lackluster pokemon that can't really be relied upon to give results consistently. Whilst I can admit that I think that bolt-beam coverage is amazing, having will-o / trick as options is just really nice etc, but the main thing that bothers me when using rotom-f is that half the time I use it, I feel like I can't click blizzard. Having to rely on a 70% chance or being forced into a situation which means you have to rely on it is just the worst feelings as a pokemon player and it makes me want to use it less as a result. All players can relate when I say that if you can find a way to win without having to use blizzard, then you'll choose that option rather than using a 70% win chance. So when it comes to metagame trends anyway, due to the rise of regice / articuno / rotom-f anyway, nearly all teams are running ice / electric resists that can check rotom comfortably, stunfisk is usually carrying some sort of coverage to break rotom-f's subs and its gaining even more competition from other pokemon, mainly Regice which in most scenarios I would much prefer using for the simple fact of having a 100% accurate bolt-beam rather than having to use blizzard.

tl;dr blizzard means you don't want to click it half the time for fear of miss, metagame is developing to make rotom-f a lot more neutered and it has a lot of competition from regice which means i would prefer consistency.

 

[balt2253]

I would also like to make a nomination for Klang to C Rank.
It is very outclassed in this meta right now. With its only viable physical moves being its STAB, Return, and Wild Charge, its movepool is extremely shallow. While it does have decent stats, Shift Gear only boosts attack by one stage, so even if it somehow manages to force something out, it is still pretty weak. Having Klang set up to the point where it becomes threatening requires so many free turns. Even with decent bulk with 60/95/85 defenses augmented by Eviolite, it is still destroyed by common mons in this meta, such as Machoke, Golem, Stoutland, Stunfisk, Pawniard, Arbok, Crustle, Gourgeist-XL, and Floatzel and Rotom-F if they Trick/Switcheroo it a choice item. It is also outclassed as a bulky Eviolite steel type by Metang, who has similar bulk and useful support moves such as Stealth Rock and Pursuit. It is also
outclassed as a set-up sweeper by mons such as SD Monferno and DDance Fraxure, who have better abilities, movepools, and Attack. Overall, Klang is extremely outclassed and is just too bad for B-Rank.

252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Klang: 194-230 (59.8 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Golem Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Klang: 186-218 (57.4 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Superpower vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Klang: 208-246 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Stunfisk Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Eviolite Klang: 114-134 (35.1 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 0 Atk Klang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 72-86 (17 - 20.3%)
+2 0 Atk Klang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 114-134 (30.4 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery