Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

[HJAD]

wassup peeps, with the advent of mawile dropping to PU and mawile itself looking like a top tier threat, some mons are obviously gonna improve from this shift, and others wont:


Roselia from Top of A ==> A-

With Mawile dropping, its going to be so so important for your team to limit the amount of opportunities mawile gets to settup, especially if you are running a Balance team, which Roselia often finds itself slapped on to provide a spike support with reliable recovery. Its dual-STAB the immediately grants Mawile a free +2 with Swords Dance, and as some people have found out, Swords Dance Mawile is hugely difficult to check once its got an SD under its belt. Handing Mawile that Free SD isnt something you want on your balance team, and will often force you to run offensive sets, which lose a lot of defensive impetus and will make your team much more susceptible to the likes of Water Types. I feel like over recent months, the meta has been falling away from Rose's hands, people are favouring the physical bulk, mono-grass typing and utility quilladin brings you much more than in the past. Obviously Rose is still a great mon, offensive sets are still menacing, hence why i think it should stay high up the A- ranks but thats a very specific niche to fill and teams will seldom want to rely on a sash offensive rose, or even a sleep powder rose just because it doesnt have room enough to hit everything.

Torkoal from C- ==> C+


This one is self explanatory really. Torkoal has often just been the butt of everyones jokes, but Sir Kay mentioned this in the PU Chat when i was looking for Mawile counters on Balance, and this fit the bill perfectly. Mono-Fire Typing + Huge Defensive Stats mean its a viable Mawile counter, but whats nice is that it can run Spin to provide your team with some hazards control. Of course, its a torkoal, meaning its quite passive and obviously unable to break through certain spinblockers, like Misdreavus, which is unfortunate, but i think with Mawile dropping and the problems stall / balance are having dealing with it, this will often be a great asset to your bulky team. Something else thats nice is that it isn't limited to just a shell smash set if you want to break shit and not lose momentum. It can run quite effectively, several status moves like Toxic, Wisp, Yawn (<one of my personal favourites for not loosing momentum) and obviously Rapid Spin which can put things heavily in your favour should your opponent not have a Ghost that can spinblock it easily. Its at least on par with Avalugg at the moment, in terms of bulky as fuck spinners on stall / balance imo

 

[Ununhexium]

It's only been a few hours chill on the Mawile-based noms

mag edit: you don't really have the authority to say that but you're right, also mawile really isn't that ridiculous of a threat to drop something a full rank

 

[5gen]

wassup peeps, with the advent of mawile dropping to PU and mawile itself looking like a top tier threat, some mons are obviously gonna improve from this shift, and others wont:


Roselia from Top of A ==> A-

With Mawile dropping, its going to be so so important for your team to limit the amount of opportunities mawile gets to settup, especially if you are running a Balance team, which Roselia often finds itself slapped on to provide a spike support with reliable recovery. Its dual-STAB the immediately grants Mawile a free +2 with Swords Dance, and as some people have found out, Swords Dance Mawile is hugely difficult to check once its got an SD under its belt. Handing Mawile that Free SD isnt something you want on your balance team, and will often force you to run offensive sets, which lose a lot of defensive impetus and will make your team much more susceptible to the likes of Water Types. I feel like over recent months, the meta has been falling away from Rose's hands, people are favouring the physical bulk, mono-grass typing and utility quilladin brings you much more than in the past. Obviously Rose is still a great mon, offensive sets are still menacing, hence why i think it should stay high up the A- ranks but thats a very specific niche to fill and teams will seldom want to rely on a sash offensive rose, or even a sleep powder rose just because it doesnt have room enough to hit everything.

I just wanna say that Roselia is the type of mon that can be tweaked so it isn't complete set up fodder for Mawile. Roselia can run HP Ground for it which does a lot to Mawile. Albeit defensive Rose variants wouldn't want to take out any of it's moves for HP Ground.
252+ SpA Roselia Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 194-230 (80.1 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252+ Atk Life Orb Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Roselia: 117-138 (46.6 - 54.9%) -- 63.7% chance to 2HKO

I agree with your point that Rose has fallen out of favor as a Spiker and that Quill offers better phys bulk but imo that isn't enough to drop it to A-. I still feel that Rose does a good job at being your special water switch in that provides Spikes support as it has reliable recovery in Synthesis and can threaten them with Giga Drain. To be honest I don't have a problem with Roselia dropping within the A rank but going to A- I disagree with. Guess we'll have to see how the meta adapts to Mawile and see if Rose really is an A- mon.

 

[Memeing Hard]

Fearow from E to C- or D

I'm nominating Fearow to C- because from what I've seen and used, it really doesn't belong in E-rank and seems to sit above D rank mons. However I know people are usually very averse to moving more than one grade so I wouldn't complain if it ended up at D. The common reason why is it is E that fearow is straight outclassed by dodrio as a physical flying, and in my experience that's not entirely true, especially on offensive teams that rely on momentum. I've used both as choice scarf users extensively, and when it comes to being choiced fearow seems to shine. So let's get into the comparisons:

These two are pretty much the same in a lot of ways: typing, bulk is almost identical, and speed is the exact same. Dodrio has a better attack at 110 vs fearow's 90, which combined with brave bird is huge damage. Fearow has a slightly better ability than dodrio, and has a move pool that can get more use out of all four slots while also avoiding losing team momentum.

Ability - Just going off the most popular for each: Early bird and Sniper are both pretty meh. However, Sniper has the advantage between these two. The only sleep-incuders I've seen in PU are all grass types. While a switch in to absorb a sleep powder and get rid of it quickly are nice for dodrio you don't really end up doing that in reality. Unfortunately they both have a weakness to stealth rock meaning there's a decent chance they'are coming in at 75% health. Not only that but if you mis-predict and come into, say, Roselia on a sludge bomb (252+ SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dodrio: 204-240 (78.1 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after rocks) that's a dead bird. So Early Bird is nice, but since dodrio is so frail the chance of a mis-prediction can be a KO right off or KO yourself after BB recoil.
Sniper: Critcal hits do 2.25x instead of 1.5x. Everyone loves getting crits, but they are super random: 1/16 or 6.25% chance according to Bulbapedia (1.8 or 12.5% for a high chance move like drill run). My argument isn't that Sniper is a great ability in itself, but that 6.25% of the time (or 12.5% if you're using drill run) getting that bonus damage is going to get more mileage than dodrio waking up sooner which will happen much less than 6.25% of battles.

Typical Move sets:
Dodrio:
Brave Bird
Return/Frustration
Knock off
Pursuit/ Quick Attack

Fearow:
Drill Peck
Return/Frustration
Drill Run
U-Turn

So brave bird over drill peck is great. Combined with 20 more base attack it's what separates dodrio at A and Fearow currently at E, and that's it. It does have the major recoil, but for the extra power it's worth it.
After frustration/ return you get to where Fearow shines. Since there's a good chance you're using one of these scarfed, these moves are important since they can't just be clicked once casually. For dodrio, being choice locked into knock off kind of sucks (even though it has great utility) and pursuit really sucks (even though it is only useful after another mon has been KO'd because you're not bringing dodrio in on a hitter like Kadabra), while quick attack is mostly redundant since you're already almost as good as priority when scarved *almost*. So after your first two move slots you have knock off which has great utility but is a hassle to be locked into after the first click and a 4th moveslot that is literally almost never even used.
For fearow, being able to predict a switch a u turn out is huge. If one of your checks is coming in you can drop a little damage on it and get out. And if your opponent didn't actually switch, no worries you probably went first and can switch in something that can deal with whatever they were about to hit you with. Dodrio can't do this and you lose a ton of momentum or let it get KO'd.
In addition, having drill run is wonderful. Your opponent thinks they are sending in a steel or rock type to wall your flying/ normal and instead are getting hit by a super effective attack.

252+ Atk Fearow Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Probopass: 216-256 (66.6 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (dodrio's best 252+ Atk Dodrio Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Probopass: 75-89 (24.6 - 29.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery). The drop off in damage from brave bird to drill peck is real. The kind that comparing to other C- mons differentiates them from their peers in the higher ranks.
252+ Atk Fearow Drill Run vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mawile: 170-202 (70.5 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (252+ Atk Dodrio Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mawile: 110-129 (45.6 - 53.5%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO, but before the 2nd BB, Maw comes with 252+ Atk Life Orb Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dodrio: 125-148 (47.8 - 56.7%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO not counting brave bird recoil)

Am I saying fearow is better than dodrio? No. However if you have a team that relies heavily on momentum, fearow is going to be a better choice more often than not. In addition, many teams can make use of a solid u turn mon to turn a battle in their favor. This is why I think fearow has enough of a niche to belong in either D or C-, with C- being more realistic looking at the mons in that grouping.

 

[Magnemite]

U-turn is great and all, but the main point of using Dodrio is to wallbreak, and Fearow is so weak that it struggles to do that. Drill Run can't even 2HKO defensive Mawile and Relicanth, not to mention it's pretty easily telegraphed and awful to be locked into, moreso than Dodrio's Knock Off. It obviously has advantages over Dodrio, but if it can't even do Dodrio's main job then why are you even using it? They're not that similar, but Chatot does the "wallbreaker with U-turn" thing so much better than Dodrio it's not even funny, and is a way better scarfer too because it's still really strong. Fearow was ranked before, but we decided to throw it in E just because its disadvantages are so much bigger than its advantages when compared to Dodrio, and I think this still holds true. Basically my main point here is that Fearow just isn't a good Pokemon because there's not much of a reason to actually use it; CB doesn't wallbreak particularly well, scarf doesn't do particularly well against offense, and in general it's just very mediocre with no real compelling reasons to use a teamslot on it.

 

[Memeing Hard]

Personally I mostly use teams with weather (especially rain) so the ability to not lose turns and keep momentum is big for me. With golduck I don't really need a special wallbreaker, so chatot is kind of a moot point. Maybe I've been using fearow in a space where it does the best it can do, but it typically has a very positive impact on my teams when I have subbed it in for dodrio

 

[5gen]

Personally I mostly use teams with weather (especially rain) so the ability to not lose turns and keep momentum is big for me. With golduck I don't really need a special wallbreaker, so chatot is kind of a moot point. Maybe I've been using fearow in a space where it does the best it can do, but it typically has a very positive impact on my teams when I have subbed it in for dodrio

Tbh I'd rather use Pidgeot over Fearow on rain because it gets Hurricane, U-Turn, has greater bulk and higher speed.

 

[Aaronboyer]

I am requesting Fraxure being moved from A- to B- ranking. As a result of the 2 newest Pokemon coming in, Crustle and Mawile, Fraxure has received the short end of the stick. Fraxure loses to Crustle most of the time due to many not carrying taunt. Even if you don't carry taunt, fraxure cannot do significant amounts of damage to Crustle without accumlating several boosts first due to its base 125 defense. Mawile stops fraxure cold, being immune to both poison jab and outrage leaves it with only superpower, which does less and less with every use. Low kick does crap damage to the rock and steel types it was aiming to hit hard, such as carbink, metang, mawile, crustle, and armaldo. Fraxure maybe the strongest user of dragon dance in the tier, but pokemon such as swoobat being the fastest stored power user doesn't make it the best choice all the time. With fewer select teams to be chosen on, I personally nominate it to be dropped to B-

 

[Rennyjesus]

View attachment 62020
I am requesting Fraxure being moved from A- to B- ranking. As a result of the 2 newest Pokemon coming in, Crustle and Mawile, Fraxure has received the short end of the stick. Fraxure loses to Crustle most of the time due to many not carrying taunt. Even if you don't carry taunt, fraxure cannot do significant amounts of damage to Crustle without accumlating several boosts first due to its base 125 defense. Mawile stops fraxure cold, being immune to both poison jab and outrage leaves it with only superpower, which does less and less with every use. Low kick does crap damage to the rock and steel types it was aiming to hit hard, such as carbink, metang, mawile, crustle, and armaldo. Fraxure maybe the strongest user of dragon dance in the tier, but pokemon such as swoobat being the fastest stored power user doesn't make it the best choice all the time. With fewer select teams to be chosen on, I personally nominate it to be dropped to B-

I don't agree at all with this nomination... Everything could have counters, but that do not disminishes their power or efficiency against other threats on the meta... While Carbink, Metang and Mawile are troubling for it, actually Crustle and Armaldo are pretty much beaten 1vs1:
*Armaldo:
252+ Atk Armaldo Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Fraxure: 156-184 (57.1 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Armaldo: 273-322 (77.1 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Fraxure dances in the first turn and then beats Maldo swiftly after SR... While SR does a lot to Frax, there is still a decent chance for one of those two Stone Edges missing (36%, a little bit more than a scald burn)

*Crustle
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Rock Blast (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Fraxure: 264-312 (96.7 - 114.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Crustle Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Fraxure: 198-234 (72.5 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Standard SS Crustle is Adamant and reaches 378 speed after a SS, while Jolly Fraxure gets 384 after a DD and then:
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Crustle: 252-297 (100.8 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Which is good for me, especially when Mold Breaker shuts down Sturdy... That even means that you have a not so shabby chance (I don't remember RN the chance distribution for Multi Hit moves, but I think that plus Rock Blast missing chance, Fraxure's survival should be around 60% chance) to even revenge +2 Crustle...
While Defensive sets aren't KO as swiftly as offensive ones, they are setup bait as you just get +2 atk/spe and plow through their team.

*Mawile
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mawile: 207-244 (85.8 - 101.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Even if you don't get the DD, Maw can't switch in easily:
252 Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mawile: 139-164 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(139, 141, 142, 144, 145, 147, 149, 150, 152, 154, 155, 157, 159, 160, 162, 164)
-1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mawile: 93-110 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
(93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 110)

On minumum rolls 139+93=232 + 7 (SR damage) = 239 HP... Considering that Off Mawile does have only 241 HP, I would say Fraxure can 2HKO it a lot of times as long as it gets the Superpower on the switch, making offensive Maw a really shaky check...

Then, defensive sets with intimidate will check Frax pretty effectively.
252 Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 97-115 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 30.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Fraxure: 152-180 (55.6 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Then... That's why you should try and calc before making noms, because while calcs are still theorymonning, at least they will give you accurate theorymonning...

See ya!

 

[Drangonn.]

View attachment 62020
I am requesting Fraxure being moved from A- to B- ranking. As a result of the 2 newest Pokemon coming in, Crustle and Mawile, Fraxure has received the short end of the stick. Fraxure loses to Crustle most of the time due to many not carrying taunt. Even if you don't carry taunt, fraxure cannot do significant amounts of damage to Crustle without accumlating several boosts first due to its base 125 defense. Mawile stops fraxure cold, being immune to both poison jab and outrage leaves it with only superpower, which does less and less with every use. Low kick does crap damage to the rock and steel types it was aiming to hit hard, such as carbink, metang, mawile, crustle, and armaldo. Fraxure maybe the strongest user of dragon dance in the tier, but pokemon such as swoobat being the fastest stored power user doesn't make it the best choice all the time. With fewer select teams to be chosen on, I personally nominate it to be dropped to B-

NO. JUST 100% PLAIN NO.

If I were to support a Fraxure drop, it would be to B+, not B-. Yes, it struggles with rock and steel-types, but so many things can deal with rock-types and there are so few steel-types in PU that this doesn't make sense. Mawile is 1 mon, and as Mag said, chill with the Maw-based drops.

One mon does not benefit that dramatic of a drop. Period. Crustle isn't a counter either, and I have no idea where you got that idea from.

+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Crustle: 252-297 (100.8 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Counter, right?

+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mawile: 209-246 (86.7 - 102%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Oh, the guaranteed counter right here.

Did I mention swords dance sets just completely destroy stall? With some prior damage, It comes in, gets off an SD, and sweeps. Its Dragon typing is a blessing in a tier chock-full of fire-water-grass cores. Rocking decent defenses with an eviolite is just the icing on the cake.

Honestly, your whole argument consists of how Crustle and Mawile "check" it, and also how Low Kick is a crap move. This doesn't mean anything. Playing against Fraxure means playing conservatively with your Dragon-resists. This is how powerful it is. It means that when those resists die, your game plan shifts to killing Fraxure.

Honestly, your whole argument is based around two very flawed points. Two pokemon that could give it "trouble" do not make it worthy of dropping 3 ranks.

For this reason, keep Fraxure in A-.

 

[Magnemite]

Mawile added to A
Furfrou from C to C-
Hypno from C to C-
Fraxure from A- to B+

 

[Anty]

Rotom-f down to A+. Right now I no longer see this as a top mon anymore, as unlike a few months ago when it was raised, the meta was a lot less prepared for it. Substitute sets no longer have an exceptional matchup vs balance and other bulkier playstyles as they are running stuff like Audino, Machoke, and bulky Grumpig to put a stop to it, and rotom-f gets warn down just as easily as its checks without recovery due to its rocks weakness. Additionally, Articuno is starting to take its place as a sub ice-type (not necessarily sub, but it acts similarly to subtom) due to its higher bulk. However, the biggest reason Rotom is s-rank right now is due to its choice scarf sets, however I no longer think scarftom is any more meta defining as scarf mime right now and no longer deserving of s-rank, as primarily its really forced into 50/50s, as even if those Pokemon like Golem cannot take a Golem, it adds a layer of prediction which makes playing with rotom a lot less easy than it should be (ie you cant just click volt switch). Its ability to revenge kill seems a bit weakened lately (outside of just blizzard's innacuracy), as not only are slower set up sweepers which rotom beats becoming replaced by stuff like SD Monferno (its also very inneffective vs regice), but also Rotom-f is the slowest (good) choice scarf user, and offense is moving more to scarf mime due to its support. Lastly, the nail in the coffin for me is its Stealth Rock weakness, as even though hazard removers are somewhat common right now, at a certain point in game there is no way to guarantee they are removed, sometimes making you hesitate sending rotom in to RK, which is very frustrating for a choice scarf user. For these reasons I no longer see Rotom as a top threat and deserving of s-rank

Leafeon up to A+. Leafeon has been very effective as a wallbreaker lately due to its immense strength and ability to set up. Its has a solid matchup vs bulkier teams, as they really rely on Colbur Gourgeist as a check, which can often be weakened down by things like Pursuit or Toxic, and can lose in some situations, eg vs lum leafeon, as geist gets 2HKOd by +2 Knock off with Rocks and foul play does a little over half. Additionally, non Geist teams really struggle as Leafeon can tear appart the Golem + lumineon + grumpig teams which common. Even offense can be annoyed by SD as Yache sets can often avoid revenge killing, and it has some defensive presence so can soft check stuff like Golem. Choice Band sets are very threatening, particularly to offensive teams which will often have something like Monferno as their grass check, which takes a 40%+ from Leaf blade and is 2HKOd by return. The addition of Mawile does sort of annoy Leafeon, but offensive sets can 2HKOd by CB Leaf blade, and defensive sets cant really touch it. rn, mawile just seems out of place in A rank compared to the rest.

Audino down to A. Though it checks a good chunk of special attackers, it just seems harder to fit in on teams now that stallbreakers are much more common and bulkier teams are much more prepared for, with stuff like NP Mime and SD Mawile being standard. It also feels a bit awkward putting it on balance as its fairly passive and seems to be an opening for wallbreakers. Additionally its not really a staple on bulkier teams (teddeh's sand semi stall is one of the most successful bulky team recently), so I don't really see much of an argument for keeping it in A+.

 

[PsychicPhysicist]

Sudowoodo to D-rank:

Sudowoodo actually makes a decent lead, with access to stealth rocks and sturdy letting it reliably set up hazards, sucker punch to break sash/sturdy, and explosion to 1-4-1 your opponent's lead.

Sudo's biggest problem seems to be that Golem can essentially do anything it can better- with STAB earthquakes, 10 higher HP, 20 higher attack and 15 higher defence, Golem is undeniably a more viable mon and more useful in almost every situation. However, Sudowoodo does have a few niches:

The biggest one seems to be its typing- Not having 4x weaknesses makes Sudo better placed to survive grass and water moves, most noticeably a bullet seed from a Leafeon, which is one of Golem's most common checks.

Another benefit of Sudo is its lower base HP and defence- both Golem and Sudowoodo actually like having sturdy activate, because it allows them to use Custap Berry for priority, and Sudo's base stats mean that in some circumstances it is slightly more likely to achieve a Custap-range HP. Lower defences also make Sudowoodo's Counter hit a little harder on gimmick sets.

Sudo also has access to Wood Hammer, which, though not great for general use, is a decent suicide play against water-type leads like Prinplup or Lumineon.

Sudowoodo will never be amazing and will never rise to the great heights that Golem has, but people seem to have overlooked it because of it cowering in Golem's shadow. Despite this, Sudo has a few niches- even dealing with some of Golem's checks better than Golem itself can, and in that regard it deserves more recognition than E-rank gives it.
It's not good, but it's okay and D-rank reflects that more appropriately.

 

[Teddeh]

I don't think sudowoodo deserves that rank in question and i don't think the niches you've stated are worth running it over the variety of rock types we already have available. Heck, we even have gigalith with similar base speed, more bulk and 25 base more power, by which i think is still notably better than sudowoodo, yet isn't ranked.

My point of the matter is, apart from its typing, golem does everything it does, but better. With more power, item choices, etc etc, and it would never merit the promotion of sudo on any team apart from a meme team. By promoting it to D rank, it would promote the use of it and I simply can't picture using the tree on any serious team for this very small niche. Especially when its niche is done better by gigalith n_n

 

[5gen]

B+ to A-

Quilladin has become one of PU's premier Spikers and physically bulky mons in general, due to the utility it brings both offensively and defensively. It's pure grass typing combined with Bulletproof and good bulk allow Quill to wall things like Roselia, grounds and physical waters like CB Float. Offensive is able to anti-lead a chunk of the meta while more than holding it's ground vs hazard removers such as Cryo, Vullaby, Vibrava and others due to it's speed tier (max hits 234) in conjunction with Taunt, Wood Hammer and Drain Punch. The latter is able to provide physical bulk to a team, allowing it to handle common physical attackers such as Stout, CB Float, Leafeon etc. Defensive Quilladin also brings utility in Spikes, Taunt and Roar, and has reliable recovery in Synthesis. The recent Mawile drop also benefits Quilladin in that Flying types like Dodrio become deterred from being used (can be said that rise of Fire types hurts it). You may think Gourg or Tangela can be used over Quilladin, but they don't provide what Quill does, which is Spike support, a phazer, and a Taunter. Roselia is also a grass Spiker but it has fallen out of favor due to the meta getting more physical, Mr. Mime picking up popularity and Quill being better at dealng with Grounds and Psychic types in general.

Unexplored/Uncommon sets:
Sdef: Allows it to lure water types. Similar to Sdef Tangela but has Spikes, Taunt and Roar in it's movepool.
Taunt Toxic: Taunt Toxic Quill can act as a stall breaker spreading status and Taunting things so the poison can't be removed.

Overall Quilladin is a versatile and reliable mon that should be placed higher than B+. Shout out to The Jungle Fox for discussing with me Quilladin in the current meta/why it's A- worthy.

 

[The Jungle Fox]

B+ to A-

Quilladin has become one of PU's premier Spikers and physically bulky mons in general, due to the utility it brings both offensively and defensively. It's pure grass typing combined with Bulletproof and good bulk allow Quill to wall things like Roselia, grounds and physical waters like CB Float. Offensive is able to anti-lead a chunk of the meta while more than holding it's ground vs hazard removers such as Cryo, Vullaby, Vibrava and others due to it's speed tier (max hits 234) in conjunction with Taunt, Wood Hammer and Drain Punch. The latter is able to provide physical bulk to a team, allowing it to handle common physical attackers such as Stout, CB Float, Leafeon etc. Defensive Quilladin also brings utility in Spikes, Taunt and Roar, and has reliable recovery in Synthesis. The recent Mawile drop also benefits Quilladin in that Flying types like Dodrio become deterred from being used (can be said that rise of Fire types hurts it). You may think Gourg or Tangela can be used over Quilladin, but they don't provide what Quill does, which is Spike support, a phazer, and a Taunter. Roselia is also a grass Spiker but it has fallen out of favor due to the meta getting more physical, Mr. Mime picking up popularity and Quill being better at dealng with Grunds and Psychic types in general.

Unexplored/Uncommon sets:
Sdef: Allows it to lure water types. Similar to Sdef Tangela but has Spikes, Taunt and Roar in it's movepool.
Taunt Toxic: Taunt Toxic Quill can act as a stall breaker spreading status and Taunting things so the poison can't be removed.

Overall Quilladin is a versatile and reliable mon that should be placed higher than B+. Shout out to The Jungle Fox for discussing with me Quilladin in the current meta/why it's A- worthy.

I'd also like to add that the SpDef set has a bonus over Roselia not only for more utility moves in Taunt and Roar on its arsenal, but also the pure grass typing, which helps it dealing with ground types and taking hits from mons such as Mr. Mime better than Rose. Overall, Quilladin is a solid and versatile mon and i agree and support a rise to A-.

 

[Magnemite]

Rotom-F from S to A+
Audino from A+ to A
Leafeon from A to A+
Dustox from D to E

would like more discussion on Quilladin since people were split on it

 

[fish anemometer]

Chinchou from C- to C+/B-

Chinchou has been getting a little hype recently, it's getting surprisingly high usage for pupl, and for good reason. Chinchou is a pretty reliable special wall, countering electric types and strong wallbreakers like regice. Gaining momentum with volt-switch can be so good, and having a defensive backbone/core that can pivot around is just really helpful. Scald is obviously one of the best moves around. Rest-talk can be a savior or unfortunately put you in a bad spot, but generally against the mons Chinchou stays in on, sleep talk doesn't have much risk. 67 base spe is very impressive for a fat, baby, bulky water type, outspeeding stuff at the 137spe and just barely missing out on base 70s like politoad. You can even be a little cheeky and run 80spe evs to outspeed max spe adamant base 45s.

Theres probably some other stuff I forgot, but overall Chinchou is pretty good rn, and definitely deserves to be a rank or a 2 sub-ranks higher.

 

[OminousDraco]

Lapras from B rank to B+ rank

Lapras has seen a decent rise in popularity due to stall getting a whole lot viable. Lapras is able to easily break through bulky water resists with freeze dry and/or ice beam being able to break the opponents defensive backbone. On the other hand stall doesnt have a really solid switchin to lapras and after lapras messes the opponents team, its team mates can just finish the game. Right now Lapras is one of the most fearsome wallbreakers present in PU and tbh doesnt belong to its current rank.It also does a very good job of breaking the switchins to other water types like floatzel , simipour etc. Not only this but it can swithin pretty safely on resisted moves and is immune to water which is rn one of the best offensive typings in PU.Its specs set is what makes it the kind of wallbreaker it is.

(I hope i dint do something wrong in the post as it is my first time doing a post like this)

 

[MaroGod]

Lapras from B rank to B+ rank

Lapras has seen a decent rise in popularity due to stall getting a whole lot viable. Lapras is able to easily break through bulky water resists with freeze dry and/or ice beam being able to break the opponents defensive backbone. On the other hand stall doesnt have a really solid switchin to lapras and after lapras messes the opponents team, its team mates can just finish the game. Right now Lapras is one of the most fearsome wallbreakers present in PU and tbh doesnt belong to its current rank.It also does a very good job of breaking the switchins to other water types like floatzel , simipour etc. Not only this but it can swithin pretty safely on resisted moves and is immune to water which is rn one of the best offensive typings in PU.Its specs set is what makes it the kind of wallbreaker it is.

(I hope i dint do something wrong in the post as it is my first time doing a post like this)

Despite originally being for a Lapras rise i actually have to disagree with it now noticing the very concerning downfalls Lapras has especially with some of these points being false in some cases.

On the other hand stall doesnt have a really solid switchin to lapras

While yes Lapras is a fantastic wallbreaker in it's own right Audino sits comfortably in stall as a staple pokemon to the style and before anyone points out that Audino is 2HKOd by Lapras' Hydro Pump the roll is actually very disappointing with a reliance on Choice Specs which in turn allows a bulky grass type to come in on the lock (Gourgeist-XL,Tangela,Quilladin,Roselia ect)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 177-208 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Lapras Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 118-139 (28.7 - 33.9%) -- 1.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Not only this but it can swithin pretty safely on resisted moves and is immune to water which is rn one of the best offensive typings in PU

This is the double-edged sword of Lapras' typing as it has only one resistance in Ice-Type attacks and (as you mentioned) its Water immunity with Water Absorb. Now while this is fine it doesn't give Lapras a lot of switch-in opportunities to the popular users of Ice-Type moves even those coming from Water-Types such as Floatzel (Focus Blast) Simipour/Politoed (Focus Blast/Superpower)

On top of this it has a weakness to Stealth Rock which is arguably the biggest issue for Lapras due to it's mediocre speed stat allowing most pokemon to out-speed and further break it down or straight up kill it off. There is no denying Lapras has the best STAB combination in Hydro+Freeze-Dry and it does cause quite a lot of trouble for Balance and Bulky builds with said combo but i just don't think a rise is justified enough at this point in time. These downsides are what keep and should still keep it in the B rank

(I hope i dint do something wrong in the post as it is my first time doing a post like this)

There was nothing at all wrong with your post :) it was straight to the point on what Lapras is capable of doing and the potential benefits it brings to teams and all in all was an enjoyable read for a first timer ^_^

 

[Teddeh]

A few nominations i want to call for

Golem A+ -> A: From the inclusion and addition of mawile to the tier whilst the increase in popularity for machoke's bulky rest-talking set, I see a lot less golem usage whilst it has increased competition for a ground type that also checks mawile in the team builder from options such as steel types and stunfisk, I'd argue that golem is less viable at the moment. Especially with the increase of incentive to run bulky grass types and bulky waters, i see less favor to run golem in the current state of PU.

Swanna B+ -> A: A bit of a jump, I know. But it's defensive set has been incredible useful as of late as an effective machoke check, yet bulky defogger which beats the majority of steal rock setters whilst also having reliable recovery, one thing which both prin and lumineon do not have. On top of this, I'd also argue that with the rise of bulky teams, swanna's dual stab coverage with the offensive set are also deadly as of late, whilst also carrying sub to take advantage of bulky waters running toxic. I would definitely say this pokemon is in need of a rise as of now.

Machoke to top of S: I can't see any reason why this isn't the best pokemon in the tier. It can basically do anything and has a handful of checks, i'd say it's much better than floatzel right now.

Audino A -> A-: Again, following on from the nominations of machoke and such, audino is just way too passive to run on teams as of late. Yes it's the only wish cleric in the tier, but i'd argue that it doesn't fit on most teams archetypes whilst also being passive as shit. Not only that, but the majority of breakers running around at the moment are carrying either a boosting move such as calm mind grumpig / beheeyem, or nasty plot such or trick such as mime. Not only this, the majority of breakers also carry fighting coverage on the special side such as superpower / focus blast monkeys, regice, raichu, etc etc. All in all, I just don't think audino is as viable in the current meta.

Vullaby A -> A-: as far as defoggers goes, it has fallen out of favor in my opinion. (this one is more of a discussion point because i'm not 100% convinced myself) but i think that it doesn't fit too well on teams as of late, and it's completely taken advantage of by the bulky boosters such as clefairy. Then you have the problem of not beating common stealth rockers as of late as it's vulnerable to toxic / status moves, then also struggling for coverage options. And lastly my main point is that mawile just comes in and gets to fire off a nuke every time vullaby is in, hence in the team builder, it seems a lot less viable. But again as i said, more as a discussion point tbh, as i'm not fully convinced myself.

Beheeyem B- -> B: This mon is a powerhouse. Another machoke check which carries psychic coverage to force it out whilst also having recover for reliable recovery to beat a lot of things. Not to mention options to nasty plot and calm mind making it terrifying to switch into if it starts setting up because of the analytic, but also because it doesn't need to run 1 singular coverage move as it can choose from t-bolt, signal beam and shadow ball as coverage if it needs to. Overall this mon is way undervalue in its current position. Not to mention it's AV set, but yeah it's already got enough, it just needs to rise haha.

Lot's of controversial nominations, but I think they're all viable.

 

[MaroGod]

Apologies for the double post however there was also a couple nominations i wanted to make.

Venipede and Glalie to C
With the addition of Cryogonal,Prinplup and the rise of Lumineon and Swanna in terms of removal options these two Sui-Spikers, as i have mentioned prior in my original nomination for them to drop, have really taken a hit this is mostly due to the HO Spike style being taken up by other spikes like Quilladin and Roselia due to what else they put on the table but the real nail in the coffin i feel for these two was the addition of Crustle which has effectively become the go to Spiker Setter in most cases due to the ability to run both Spikes and Stealth Rock as well as break with SS+Stone Edge/Rock Blast or cripple with Knock Off. It just doesn't seem right to continue keeping these two so high up when its quite clear just how replaceable these two are

Zweilous to C
This is something that bugged me for a while now as on paper Zweilous is an ok pokemon for its role however unable to perform said role reliably in the current meta with the continuing popularity rise of Machoke/Monferno,Fairy and Ice-Types as well as the coverage options used on Water-Types which hit Zweilous very hard on its SpD set just leaves it as a very risky mon to use on a team atm. Along with this is the CB set which fairs horribly right now especially with the addition of Mawile, Zweilous just has so much more risk to it right now that there isn't many justifiable cases for its use over other Dragon-Types and to an extent Dark-Types.

Agree with all of the nominations Teddeh just posted also

 

[MZ]

Definitely agree w/Audino and Venipede, rest are kinda iffy especially 2 subranks for swanna and golem still being the best SR user in the tier. But I'm mostly here for my own noms

Leavanny B to B-
Webs just are not that good anymore. Everything else you run on webs can be put on other things and doesn't mind too much, but webs themselves are suffering from a lot of unaffected mons like Rotom-F and Articuno and Regice and Swanna being really good right now, in general even full out HO without a remover can handle it just fine, it has to deal with a ton of offensive threats while still finding room for enough ways to actually beat bulkier styles which don't care about being slowed down, it's had a pretty awful seasonal run... I think that's everything. But it's just been hit pretty hard and Leavanny isn't worth being up there with B anymore.

Sawsbuck B to B-
Not a really awful mon but sort of like Lickilicky except slightly less outclassed. Having a Mach Punch weakness really hurts a lot of what the Normal STAB brings to the table since people are just opting to run SD return leafeon instead of using buck. If nothing else, that should be a major sign that this just isn't great. It doesn't have the stellar physical bulk to check random things or knock off either. I've seen people using a ton of different things to justify Sawsbuck from special to random vullaby lures like natural gift and they're all just mediocre, it's by no means terrible but we've even started to use scarf leafeon now which cuts into another niche. Oh and I guess mawile also sucks for it a lot. This is definitely the main mon that inflation has got to here, I honestly can't rate it on the same level as any of the other B ranks even though it's been hanging out there consistently for a while.

Quilladin?
Setting discussions in the thread never seems to work but this was the discussion point from the last update and I just don't see it being that good. It's a solid mon that does exactly what it's meant to do, but just falls down by being threatened by a good majority of the strong attackers in the tier right now. Spikes are great but Quilladin is often threatened by 4/6 mons on the opposing team which really cuts into how much it sets them up. If you want something to wall the general range of physical attackers or screw with defensive stuff with Taunt then it totally works but I'm not convinced that it's even on the same level as probopass which at least has ways around being so well pressured.

 

[Rigas]

I think Pikachu should be on the list, probably at C- rank. Now, you might say Pikachu sucks, and you'd basically be right. However, it doesn't suck nearly as much as most people seem to think. I played a lot with Pikachu recently after getting some teambuilding assistance from people more experienced in the tier. I tried two sets, a physical set and a special set.

The physical set struck very hard (458 Attack with 120 power STAB), but Pikachu was killing itself from all the recoil, so it was considerably less impressive than it might sound. There's also the idea of Wild Charge over Volt Tackle, which is weaker, but has less recoil, and is also legal with Extreme Speed (while in the Volt Tackle set you are forced to use Quick Attack). As for the other moves, there are choices such as Knock Off to cripple all the Eviolite users in the tier, Brick Break for Rotom-F and Probopass, and Surf to hit stuff like Golem that can switch into the Electric STAB, though Surf is incompatible with Extreme Speed.

I liked the special set a lot more. I ran Thunderbolt/Volt Switch/Surf/Hidden Power Ice in a Sticky Web offense team. Pikachu reaches 436 Sp. Attack with a Modest nature. Normally I use it to finish weakened enemies in early-mid game while waiting for the opportunity to clean up. You can run Nasty Plot over Volt Switch, which is better if you want to use Pikachu as a wallbreaker, but worse versus offense. Keep in mind that Pikachu is extremely frail and can't survive most hits, so it forces you to play carefully. One unnecessary risk (probably a wrong prediction) could lead to Pikachu getting KOed.

Pikachu does have some niches. Yes, it is usually a bad choice, but it is not completely outclassed by anything due to those niches. I'd say the most important one is that it hits hard without giving up the liberty of switching moves (and keep in mind the special set has great coverage). Originally I was going to propose that it should be added to the D rank, but after comparing it with the inhabitants of that rank, I believe C- would be more appropriate.

Proposing Pikachu moved from Unranked to C-

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

Pikachu is too frail and forces you into a perfect game so Pikachu doesn't die. You need a hazard remover and a slow pivot. If this is ranked at all, put it in D or E rank and call it a day.