Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

[Samoyed]

Cottonee to Cool NFE

my sig move is copycat your argument was so good in the nfe thread TONE144 i said /dt 360 nom it in VR its decent

what tone said

Cottonee @ Eviolite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Encore
- Memento
- Taunt / Dazzling Gleam / Leech Seed
- Stun Spore / Knock Off / Giga Drain

Cottonee is a Pokemon that is mainly known for its access to great utility moves combined with its ability in Prankster allows Cottonee to support its teammates in multiple ways while having a unique typing in Grass/Fairy giving it 6 resistances and an immunity to Dragon. As for the set itself, Encore is a great move for Cottonee, provoking opposing foes into their last move for 3 turns. Combined with Memento, setup sweepers appreciate coming in and not having to worry about taking damage while the foe switches out. Taunt stops foes from getting up hazards or setting up themselves, while Stun Spore adds to Cottonee's support by crippling faster threats for its teammates. Knock Off is mainly for utility, as getting rid of a foe's held item can work in your favor.


Baisically even though its stats are like the worst in the universe, it can still manage some decent bulk with eviolite and investment. Prankster really makes this thing want you to smash your computer, (just like whimsicott), and things like Rotom-F's Pain Split become funny because you can trap it in it for a total of 48 turns. Encore + Prankster is great along with Memento, allowing stuff like SD (insert PU SD mon here) to wreck havoc. Taunt is funny but can be counterproductive as Cott hates taking beatings. Dazzling Gleam and Giga Drain can both be used to allow Cott to do some damage, preferably GDrain for healing. Leech Seed is also an option for healing. Stun Spore makes up for boyCott's terrible 66 speed even though it only has 25% accuracy. Knock Off allows it to screw with other eviolite users and pokemon who like their items. Overall Cottonee is a really cool NFE that can take a crap on the battlefield if used correctly, and I think it deserves at least the Cute NFE rank, if not the Cool one.



Replays shall be added later, if possible.

 

[Magnemite]

Politoed from B+ to A-
Mightyena from A- to B+
Beheeyem from C+ to B-
Lumineon from C+ to B
Lapras from B- to B
Leafeon from A- to A
Duosion from B+ to B

we've heard the concerns about the nfe rank, it will probably be changed in the next update

 

[g]

Machoke didn't move to S: Here is why.

The nomination overall got no support from pretty much anybody in the council for a few reasons.
Most of them are pretty obvious since in a lot of games Machoke will go down to a 1v1 trade against an opposing faster Pokemon and that is due to its low speed and lack of reliable recovery. While hard to OHKO, it is still pretty easy to 2HKO with STAB attacks from offensive Pokemon, especially with the current hazards game and the fact that Machoke is still outsped by a lot even while running Speed also limits its effectiveness in balance matchups when Pokemon such as Roselia also hurt its effectiveness.

Fighting-type STAB is amazing in PU but the presence of relatively safe switch ins even for Offense in Colbur Grumpig, Swanna, and Mr. Mime on offense keep it honest and prevent it from spamming Dynamicpunch and Close Combat too easily in case it gets in for free and the dedicated answers also really limit its effectiveness (Gourgeist-XL on balance/stall and stuff like Jumpluff and Arbok on balance). This isn't true for Monferno for example which trades bulk for much better coverage due to its secondary STAB and access to U-turn and SD.
Machoke is obviously one of the better Pokemon in the tier (easily top 4-5) but in our opinion it is not quite enough for S rank at the moment. Feel free to keep discussing.

Discussion points:

Fraxure to B+
Mr. Mime to A+
Vibrava to C+
Lumineon and Lapras to B+
Pawniard to A

 

[The Jungle Fox]

Okay, about the discussion points, i guess i'll post my opinion here.

My opinions about discussion points

Lumineon to B+: I don't think this thing is a lot better than Prinplup to be honest. Lumineon has few notable assets over it IN MY OPINION, which include ability to hold lefties, u-turn on its arsenal and capability of taking on knock off users better. Prinplup has a superior bulk even though it relies on it's item and has no passive recover nor can tank knock off as well as Lumi does, but Prinplup also fills two roles in only one mon: Defogger and rocker. This is really useful as you grab a "free slot" on your team to run whatever you'd like to. Keep it B

Pawniard to A: Well, pawn's era is finally over. Pawniard has always been known for it's awesome offensive typing, decent bulk and Defiant. Offensive teams hate tanking this beast's sucker punch, and it's pretty good against defensive teams too, knocking them items out and weakening them. However, I'd say the meta hasn't been too kind for Pawniard and it's shifting against it. It's checks and counters are really common atm, like Monferno and Colbur Grumpig. A rise in popularity of sets like double status Misdreavus and SubWisp Rotom-f doesn't help it either. Overall, this thing is still threatening and effective, but we're overpreparing for it. Drop to A

Lapras to B+: I hasn't tested this thing a lot but it seems like an awesome tank and a solid wallbreaker. I don't have much to say about this so no opinion at all.

Vibrava to C+: Heavily disagree on this. Maybe the meta isn't too kind for it either as it lost it's effectiveness to check Electric-types since Piloswine left the tier but this ain't enough reason for a drop. It has a good matchup against nearly every hazard setter on the tier, has reliable recovery, slow u-turns to bring team mates in safely or even Toxic for utility/avoid being set up bait, is still a decent check to a lot of special (and sometimes even physical) attackers such as Rapidash, Kadabra, Grumpig, and the list goes on. Returning a bit on the Electric-type argument, Seaking's been a common and powerful force on the meta, capable of hard checking most electric types in the tier, so HP Grass isn't as terrible as it was sometime ago on electric types, so Vibrava may still have a chance against'em. Keep it B-

Mr. Mime to A+: Mime is definitely a good mon right now with it's splashability and it's versatility. Revenge Killer and Wallbreaker sets are incredibly powerful against offensive and defensive teams, respectively. It also packs some utility moves on it's arsenal such as Baton Pass, Healing Wish and Trick. Mr. Mime is, however, pretty slow and frail to actually do something to Offense without it's scarf (it's not that strong either) and kinda weak against Stall/Defensive teams in general without LO/NP/Specs. It's also easily picked up by a strong priority such as Murkrow's Sucker Punch and Floatzel's Aqua Jet. Overall, it's a good mon but i don't think it deserves A+. Keep it A

Fraxure to B+: Fraxure is definitely a strong pokemon but I feel it's been less effective lately. Fraxure is simply way to slow to pull up a sweep, needing Jolly to outspeed mons like Floatzel and Zebstrika. Electrode and Ninjask still can outspeed and revenge it. Just like Mime, it's picked up easily by strong priority and scarfers. Although with Eviolite it has decent bulk, it's 2hkoed by most attacker anyway, so you also have problems setting up. It's not that hard to OHKO Fraxure aswell.

Okay, now a nom of my own. I'd like to hear you guys' opinion about this.

Monferno to S rank

Monferno is a ridiculously strong force in the metagame. It's really splashable and versatile, capable of playing different roles efficiently and effectively. Being a Bulky attacker and a check to threats with Eviolite, a Stallbreaker with it's defensive set, a wallbreaker with LO, Band or SD, a cleaner and revenge killer with Scarf, an anti-lead, a cleaner with Flame Charge... and the list goes on. Monferno's STAB combo features two high bp moves which hit almost the whole tier for neutral damage bar Grumpig, which hates taking a U-turn. Monferno also has access to the previously-mentioned U-turn which let it scout switches, grab momentum and hit one of it's biggest checks: Grumpig. The lost of Pelipper also helps this guy a lot, as it's now free to run U-turn over thunder punch. Monferno even has access to a strong priority in form of Mach Punch, which gets futher boosted by it's ability, Iron Fist. It's powerful mach punch enable it to threaten some of the common scarfers in the tier such as Chatot, Sawsbuck and Rotom-F and make them think twice before coming to try to revenge it. Fighting STAB and fighting in general is a strong offensive typing in PU, having few resists or imunities. Those are heavily threatened by Monferno's secondary stab Flare Blitz, which is also a high bp move. Overall, Monferno is a solid and awesome mon with few reliable counters and checks capable of coming in and tanking hits through the whole match. This thing is meta defining and deserves S rank in my opinion,

 

[MaroGod]

Fraxure A-
Fraxure is so nice atm my lord why is this thing actually having a discussion point to drop? Understandable DD took a slight hit however the era of scarfers everywhere is gone and its as if people have not seen this while yes its not bad to have a scarfer on most teams there has been a very noticable decline of scarfers on teams generally due to the recent boon in defensive playstyles.

But, there is also the simple SD set which also has been forgotten about either way SD is really nice atm working effectively as an early game breaker with very few defensive switch ins which all come in when Fraxure threatens something. SD in the past i would never say use it over DD due to how offense based the tier was but i really like the breaking power SD carries for this meta and id say it alone is fine for A-.

Back to DD again this is still absurdly threatening and the whole scarfer argument is overstating as what set-up sweeper other then Huntail (which can still get bopped) isnt stopped by a scarfer? Arguably thats what choice scarfers are primarily used for due to how pressuring set-up mons can be.

Lapras B+
About time this thing got noticed more Lapras is devistating as a wallbreaker although its typing is subpar from a defensive viewpoint its amazing offensively with access to Hydro Pump+Freeze-Dry it gives it perfect neautral coverage htting the entire tier hard its ability allows it a source of pseudo-recovery while also threatening water types to an extent and its FAT seriously its funny how slept on this has been but yes move it up.

Vibrava B-
As stated by Ash before Vibrava is still a decent SpD wall and is still a great partner for the likes of Articuno,Butterfree and Ninjask (dont say cryo it can work yes but its so pressured as their spinner) also the recent popularity of HP Grass on Electric types for Seaking,Golem ect has given Vibrava its Electric switch in capabilites back again so i wouldnt move it down just yet.

Edit:

Lumineon B
While i personally do believe Lumineon is better then Prinplup (personally find rare instances were i want Prin over a rocker and removal) i dont think its B+ in viability in fact i personally believe neither are even B worthy however since this is about Lumineon to B+ i will focus on that.

Lumineon while nice as a defogger struggles greatly with three points its lack of recovery+spikes damage+status and all three go hand in hand Lumineon is easily worn down without wish support in the form of say Audino or HW Mr. Mime combine that with the ability to be hit by spikes,toxic spikes and status lumineons own matchup against commen spikers is horrible (Glalie,Roselia,Quilladin) and status goes in hand with all walls/removal and imo all these in no way make it a B+ mon.

Edit:

Mr. Mime A
I think Mr. Mime has very much became a great mon as of late and has a lot going for it however i wouldnt say its to the point of Audino,Monferno,Machoke ect with its actual effect in the PU meta its frailty and the ability to be walled if scarfed (it is not that hard tbh) comes far and has to make up for it with its other sets which suffer from thier own issues in speed. I would support it to be at the top of A however as it has improved drastically imo but not go to A+.

 

[cryalot]

Lapras to B+
Give Lapras choice specs and it will tear apart the opponent team: thanks to its access to hydro pump, ice beam, freeze dry, thunderbolt there are not a lot of mons that can take a hit from this thing. Moreover it has access to toxic and ice shard, water absorb makes it a good water check and its really bulky (130/80/95 !!!). Deserves b+.

Vibrava keep to B-
Vibrava is one of the few defoggers that resist rocks and is immune to spikes, has reliable recovery in roost and access to u-turn, and has decent spdef bulk. Enough to stay in b- imo.

Mr. Mime to bottom A+
Mr. Mime is really good in this meta. It can be scarf, specs or LO (or Twisted Spoon), it has good offensive typing and has access to focus blast, shadow ball and signal beam for coverage. Moreover it can run healing wish and can even be soundproof if there is need to counter Chatot. Even if it's really frail, filter helps it a bit to take supereffective hits. I would suggest a bottom a+ rank because its 45 hp really drag it back.

Monferno to S
Monferno is splashable and versatile. Fighting stab is godly in pu and fire is also good for hitting Tangela and Gourg. Eviolite and LO, SD and U-turn are really good sets, moreover the access to mach punch kinda covers Monferno's not really high speed. Sometimes a SD it's enough to clean a whole team early-game. Therefore, while teambuilding this is a massive threat to be aware of, having only Altaria (and frillish) as a complete counter.

 

[Complicating]

Lapras to B+
Give Lapras choice specs and it will tear apart the opponent team: thanks to its access to hydro pump, ice beam, freeze dry, thunderbolt there are not a lot of mons that can take a hit from this thing. Moreover it has access to toxic and ice shard, water absorb makes it a good water check and its really bulky (130/80/95 !!!). Deserves b+.

Vibrava keep to B-
Vibrava is one of the few defoggers that resist rocks and is immune to spikes, has reliable recovery in roost and access to u-turn, and has decent spdef bulk. Enough to stay in b- imo.
Mr. Mime to bottom A+
Mr. Mime is really good in this meta. It can be scarf, specs or LO (or Twisted Spoon), it has good offensive typing and has access to focus blast, shadow ball and signal beam for coverage. Moreover it can run healing wish and can even be soundproof if there is need to counter Chatot. Even if it's really frail, filter helps it a bit to take supereffective hits. I would suggest a bottom a+ rank because its 45 hp really drag it back.

Monferno to S
Monferno is splashable and versatile. Fighting stab is godly in pu and fire is also good for hitting Tangela and Gourg. Eviolite and LO, SD and U-turn are really good sets, moreover the access to mach punch kinda covers Monferno's not really high speed. Sometimes a SD it's enough to clean a whole team early-game. Therefore, while teambuilding this is a massive threat to be aware of, having only Altaria (and frillish) as a complete counter.

Here's some counter argument:
Lapras: Though very solidly bulky and able to run a couple of sets, Lapras falls short of many things. For one, base 60 speed isn't very impressive. It does have great offensive typing and the ability to switch into water moves thanks to its ability, but there's a problem with Lapras. It's somewhat predictable. Rocks take 1/4 of its health out immediately, which is tough to swallow. (There's also no reason to run thunderbolt because ice beam will hit the exact same things harder and freeze-dry hits the water types harder. Hell, even ice shard is better than thunderbolt for Lapras. There's not a single thing that Freeze-Dry/Ice Beam don't hit harder than T-bolt for Lapras.) Focus Blast isn't all that uncommon in the tier. I've seen quite a few Floatzel and Raichu run it, among other things like Grumpig, which can wall Lapras as well. I don't really agree with Lapras moving up to B+ because it just falls short of a few things. If you lose 25% of your HP every time you switch in, I don't care what the bulk is, that's a quarter of bulk immediately lost. It just doesn't really outspeed very many things, which means that in addition to hazards it will end up taking more damage before it ever attacks to begin with in most cases. Other variants have the same problem as well. Also, show me some calcs. I have Grumpig, Regice, AV Bouffalant, and WishTect Audino (Max SpD) that say Lapras ain't got shit on them.

Vibrava: I can't agree nor disagree. Vibrava's main three flaws are: Reliance on eviolite to boost bulk, weak offensive presence, and the amount of things it can do, which is basically hit defog, then leave. It also needs to run bulk in order to be effective, meaning it can be outsped by quite a number of other mons, especially taunt users, such as misdreavus. I merely feel that there are better options to use over Vibrava, even if it means taking more damage from hazards.

Mr. Mime: I agree that Mr. Mime is a good mon right now. It's a decent cleaner and revenge killer with a scarf, it's capable of running healing wish just as well as a NP set; However, there are quite a few flaws that Mr. Mime can't make up for. It's role is limited and isn't very easy to fit into every team. Filter isn't a great ability for it, namely because Mr. Mime lacks the necessary bulk to pull it off, especially on the physical side. If you're adamant about that filter statement, then you'd better show some viable calcs. You won't see many hard switches into Mr. Mime unless it's getting sacked. You shouldn't ever carry signal beam because you have STAB Dazzling Gleam, whilst shadow ball is stronger and offers better coverage. Focus Blast is better than Signal Beam in the same regards that shadow ball is. Keep it A ranked. It's where it belongs.

Monferno: Okay, now this seems a little too far for what you're suggesting. First off, there are far more solid counters than just Altaria. There's any other dragon type that's viable, Grumpig (Thick Fat), Defensive Politoed, Vullaby, and several other mons throughout the tier. If you have a fully physical Monferno, you will miss out on several clean KOs in a 1v1 matchup, not to mention the fact that you are worn down far faster due to flare blitz recoil. Overheat is a great move on Monferno as it can nuke several physically defensive walls, such as Tangela and Avalugg. (There are other viable walls in the tier as well)
0 SpA Monferno Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 308-366 (92.2 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Monferno Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 168-198 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Monferno U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 66-78 (19.7 - 23.3%) -- 14.7% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Monferno Overheat vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Avalugg: 338-402 (86 - 102.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Monferno Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Avalugg: 164-194 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Close Combat does the same damage unless Blaze is Active)
Also, can we talk about how virtually nothing is a complete counter to Monferno because it learns literally everything that it could ever need? HP ice isn't impossible to run on it, and that would definitely kill Altaria right? Also, Stone Edge, Thunder Punch, etc. I'll return to this point later.
Life Orb Monferno Variants also deal quite a bit more damage respectively, however they are worn down extremely quickly thanks to recoil. Fire Blast is a great option in place of Overheat as well, I just wanted to calc for the most damage, as EQ from Avalugg will hit Monferno very hard and Tangela can just switch out or put Monferno to sleep. Of course there are other things that I didn't cover here, but that's just a basic overview of Monferno's "good" matchups. I realize that a speed boosting nature isn't always run on Monferno, but again, this is just a general overview. Besides, when Monferno hits only a tad harder (~10%), enough to make a difference at least, but only just. This will also mean that mons with max speed nature base 70 and above will outspeed Monferno lacking a speed nature. Monferno does have great coverage though. I don't think that we should move it into S Rank primarily for the reason that its overall abilities aren't impressive enough to seriously impact the tier in such a way that a majority of the tier is affected. This isn't Floatzel, the thing that outspeeds a majority of the unboosted meta; wallbreak and revenge kill with ease; greatly influences the metagame as a whole to be aware of its presence. Monferno doesn't boast all of that at once.
I say A+ is great for it. However, I do want to point out something that I would enjoy seeing discussed.
Monferno is capable of pulling off a Nasty Plot set and it deserves some discussion. Monferno in PU is the same thing as Infernape in UU. They can do essentially the same things. I understand that a NP set doesn't dish out as much damage as a SD set; however, it's quite clear that the minute differences between the two can be argued. They can both fit on different teams and due to the simple fact that they are different, each set is able to beat a number of certain things that the other cannot. Here's a sample Nasty Plot set:
Monferno @ Life Orb / Eviolite
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature / Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Vacuum Wave / Close Combat
- Grass Knot
(Rash Nature or Naive Nature if running Close Combat)
Basically this Monferno is able to hit both defenses if it opts for Close Combat over Vacuum Wave and is able to hit things very hard, just like the SD variant. It just hits different things. Honestly, Monferno is just like Infernape in UU - only the PU version.
Calcs:
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Monferno Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stoutland: 289-343 (92.9 - 110.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Flamethrower does more damage)
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Monferno Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Simipour: 216-255 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Monferno Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Avalugg: 335-398 (85.2 - 101.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Monferno Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cryogonal: 234-276 (83.2 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Monferno Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Golem: 338-400 (92.8 - 109.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (as unorthodox as AV Golem sounds, that's just to prove a point)
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Monferno Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stunfisk: 367-433 (86.9 - 102.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Monferno Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 230-270 (67 - 78.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Monferno Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 289-341 (70.4 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Monferno Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 352-417 (96.7 - 114.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Now the SD Variant
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Monferno Close Combat vs. 160 HP / 24 Def Eviolite Machoke: 343-406 (100.5 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Monferno Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Grumpig: 282-333 (77.4 - 91.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Monferno Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Grumpig: 285-335 (78.2 - 92%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Monferno Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simipour: 231-274 (79.3 - 94.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Monferno Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Avalugg: 234-276 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Avalugg Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Monferno: 274-324 (101.8 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Monferno Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Golem: 320-377 (87.9 - 103.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Monferno Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 231-273 (67.3 - 79.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (the way most Vullaby run)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Monferno Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 320-378 (75.8 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And so on (similarities)
The main difference that I'm getting at is the fact that the SD variant is both more prepared for and much more easily worn down just because of flare blitz. Focus Blast is another Option on the NP set, but I needn't explain why you probably shouldn't run it. I'm just saying, the two sets are eerily similar and tend to get checked/walled by the same things essentially. Grumpig will absolutely wall NP Monferno. But they are equally viable in my opinion. They just have different qualities. I also want to take a moment and point out that Monferno will virtually never achieve any of those KOs from the above calcs without a life orb. This also brings up the point of running a mixed LO attacker variant that's capable of using Grass Knot/[Coverage], Flare Blitz/Fire Blast/Overheat, Close Combat, and [insert coverage move]. Like I said, Monferno is the same thing in PU as an Infernape is in UU. Each type of set has its own unique advantages and disadvantages. The NP set would be for slightly more longevity than the SD set. I'm unsure if I'm stating anything about any of this properly, albeit I will understand it if anyone calls me out for it. I feel like if there is any reason to move Monferno up to S rank (Or make an S- Rank for it and maybe a few other mons), then the reason would lie in the fact that Monferno is nearly impossible to predict just because of its expansive moveset and the overall impact that can have when teambuilding. Otherwise, Keep it at A+.

 

[Anty]

Im strongly against monferno to s-rank as I really cannot see it on a meta defining level of floatzel or rotom-f (or machoke for that matter, and I'm not certain if that should be S either). Its defensive ability is overstated especcially now almost every leafeon is running a Normal-type move and the other mons it tends to switch into like Pawniard and Mightyena have gotten less popular. Although Eviolite is nice to let you take the occasional hit, a strong hit really limits it ability to be useful later if you are u-turning out and taking hazard or recoil damage. Additionally, I find Eviolite sets to be offensively underwhelming, as despite it has a decent dual STAB, it cannot actually break defensive Pokemon without a type advantage (though one of the reasons it is so good is due to its nice type advantage vs some defensive mons), allowing not overly bulky stuff like Arbok to soft check you and it does not 2HKO phdef Tangela, for example. Banded and LO sets do help this issue, but it cannot break bulkier as people suggest due to things like phdef Altaria and Stunfisk and that these teams have resistances to its individual STABs, and makes it easier to be revenge killed by mons that aren't overly bothered about taking a mach punch. SD sets dislike the rise in usage of Mr Mime, among other constantly high used mons like Timid Grumpig (Jolly monferno is even more underwhelming), and stuff like Floatzel can still live a boosted hit. Its still an amazing Pokemon in PU, but rn its quite prepared for and Machoke is the 'better' fighting type due to its larger bulk along w/ dumbnamic punch. Keep Monf A+

Also I want to nominate Pawniard to move down as Machoke, Monferno, Relicanth, Stunfisk, etc are all fairly common and it isn't nearly as threatening as the other A+ Pokemon. It fits better in A with Pokemon like dodrio, which can perform decently well if you manage to weaken its checks, and Leafeon which also has a nice defensive presence but instead of struggling to get passed bulky stuff its more easily revenge killed. Pawniard down to A

Lastly, imo Jumpluff should be lower down than Leafeon in the A subrank as the latter is decently stronger so significantly harder to wall (much more threatening than leafeon when unboosted), and can utilise an item like Yache Berry, while getting warn down less due to lack of stealth rock. The stuff in the speed tiers below them are less popular i've found, more dodrio running scarf, more people running leafeon over simisage (or scarf simi), etc. Sleep Powder is still really nice though, but momentum isn't as the best set up sweepers like regice don't have too much of an issue setting up.

 

[ManOfMany]

Swanna to A-

Very good balance breaker pokemon. Some of the most common water resists in the tier are grass types and Swanna beats those. Also great as one of the few offensive Monferno checks, as well as offensive Machoke check. It fits on a lot of teams wanting hazard removal but not wanting to use a passive pokemon or not wanting to use Cryo cause they are afraid of Machoke or Monferno. And it has also improved its position in the meta because most Floatzel and Simi run HP grass now so it is harder to revenge kill than before. All-around good mon, splashable, provides utility, and okay wallbreaker. Deserves to move up.

Sorry for bad writing but I'm tired.

 

[Anty]

Ik i posted recently but i have more noms

Gourgeist-XL to A-: Its pretty much a stable on defensive/stall teams rn (while being excellent on balance) for a good reason. It has a unique ability to check big stall an balance breakers most notably Machoke, Leafeon, and Stoutland (also Bouff) and its high defense lets it check basically every physically offensive Pokemon without a type advantage, it can even check stuff like SD Fraxure. Bulkier playstyles are becoming more common rn, as the meta is shifting towards balance from what Ive noticed which Gourgeist loves, and its ability to spread around stuff like burns and leach seed is really annoying and nice for wearing down the opponent.

I also think Quilladin and Tangela should swap places. As bulky grass-types, Quill, Tangela, and Gourgeist all face competition from each other, but Gourgeist is a bit more unique than the two as it is not overly bothered from Knock Off from Machoke and has Will-o-Wisp, however the other two are generally quite similar due to their shared mono-typing. Although Tangela has more solid bulk, right now Ive been seeing more Quilladin as it can learn Spikes and other nice utility moves. Spikes are really good in this metagame for general wearing down teams, and what I have seen recently, is that they can provide a wincon vs stall and other fatter teams without relying on a fat wallbreaker. Additionally, Quilladin's offensive set is very good rn as it can stop most Defog users with a fast Taunt (or threaten with Wood Hammer), and can still check stuff like Pawniard and Machoke with Drain Punch/Zen Headbutt. Ive seen it in seasonals lately so here are a few replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-345496017
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-333595698 (nicely shows its ability to end out victoriously vs cryogonal)
Ive also seen a lead Sash variant (shaneghoul I think has used it a bit in seasonal)

Tangela on the otherhand isn't necessarily bad, its just harder to justify use, as some of the stuff it walls has become more popular, and it doesn't have something notable outside of its tankiness that Quilladin has.

 

[Raiza]

Rapidash to B+
This thing fell off the radar for god knows how long, and it's not even underrated, it's just really underwhelming as of right now. Rapidash can't really fit well into anything in particular at the moment, since the main playstyle it was played into is now dead(sun). It's still decent against Grass-types such as Leafeon, but if you're going to need checks / counters for Leafeon or Grass-types in general there are way better options available, such as Monferno, Arbok, or Flying-types which in my opinion are underrated. The decline in use and efficiency of most Fire-types was huge for Rapidash(negatively), as not only this affected it directly as it is a Fire-type itself, but also hit one of its few remaining niches, which was being a good check to other Fire-types thanks to Flash Fire and access to coverage. Other than Grass- and Fire-types, Rapidash kind of fails in keeping in check most of the threats that are rampaging right now, as it needs them to be weakened beforehand to KO them, and can't take a hit from them either due to its not exceptional bulk, and entry hazard weakness, which is amplified by the use of more durable setters such as bulky Golem.

Other stuff I'm interested in talking about are dropping Pawniard to A, which I completely agree with, and probably swap Stoutland's position with Grumpig's, as it became slightly worse due to the metagame adapting better to it and other offensive threats, but I'm too tired so maybe in another post lol

 

[Complicating]

Rapidash to B+
This thing fell off the radar for god knows how long, and it's not even underrated, it's just really underwhelming as of right now. Rapidash can't really fit well into anything in particular at the moment, since the main playstyle it was played into is now dead(sun). It's still decent against Grass-types such as Leafeon, but if you're going to need checks / counters for Leafeon or Grass-types in general there are way better options available, such as Monferno, Arbok, or Flying-types which in my opinion are underrated. The decline in use and efficiency of most Fire-types was huge for Rapidash(negatively), as not only this affected it directly as it is a Fire-type itself, but also hit one of its few remaining niches, which was being a good check to other Fire-types thanks to Flash Fire and access to coverage. Other than Grass- and Fire-types, Rapidash kind of fails in keeping in check most of the threats that are rampaging right now, as it needs them to be weakened beforehand to KO them, and can't take a hit from them either due to its not exceptional bulk, and entry hazard weakness, which is amplified by the use of more durable setters such as bulky Golem.

Other stuff I'm interested in talking about are dropping Pawniard to A, which I completely agree with, and probably swap Stoutland's position with Grumpig's, as it became slightly worse due to the metagame adapting better to it and other offensive threats, but I'm too tired so maybe in another post lol

I wouldn't necessarily say that it can't "easily" fit into a team or that it is underwhelming. Rapidash does have some pretty nice points about it, namely its speed tier and good coverage, even if the set it forced. I don't disagree with the drop to B+. In fact it should be a B+ rank because it's outclassed by Monferno in too many ways, not to mention hazard control being more needed for dash in comparison to ferno. Rapidash can run a mixed moveset though, I want to note... And this might be a way to mitigate some of its counter's ease of switching into it. I don't know how to run a Rapidash because I haven't used one since Exeggutor and Vigoroth were in suspect test many moons ago. I usually run a life orb set though to max out damage and still be able to use all the coverage it can get. Rapidash has its great plusses and tedious negatives. But overall, I don't think we should call it underwhelming because it is capable of some things that we all wish Flareon could. And we all know Flareon is pretty bad unless you want to slap a choice scarf on it and call it Emboar's cat. I don't know. Nyeh. But yeah. I support the move down to B+ because it just gets outclassed by other wallbreakers and Monferno as a fire type.

 

[Raiza]

My point was not Rapidash being easily countered / checked, it was that it doesn't pack enough of a punch to check itself common threats, outside of Fire- / Grass-types which is still outclassed in. It would be great if you could explain or post this mixed Rapidash set because it doesn't really seem any better than the physical main set, but instead a poor man's Simisear. Physical Rapidash already fares ok against bulky walls such as Gourgeist(this is still a feat that most Fire-types, Monferno too, can achieve, and not really a niche), so I don't see the need to run a mixed one, especially when it would make Rapidash weaker in other situations, where it really struggles. I'm assuming you would give it a special Fire-type STAB such as Fire Blast, because physical coverage can't really be replaced. Replacing Flare Blitz however makes it struggle also against like Audino and other special walls, while it's also weaker than Charcoal Flare Blitz even when running a Life Orb due to Rapidash's poor 80 base special attack. Investing in special attack would also make killing stuff with physical coverage more difficult for Rapidash, which is what instead should be eased, so I can't see right now how a mixed set would make the job easier for Rapidash.

 

[Teddeh]

Articuno B+ -> A: This mon has the ability to take on almost every single mon in the tier with huge bulk + amazing coverage and reliable recovery with roost. Without telling you things you already know about it, it's just found a much easier time in the tier with partners such as vibrava + prinplup allowing it to strut its stuff really effectively for me whilst also having the ability to break nearly every core in the meta. It usually has the ability to beat every popular ice type check, with coverage of hp fighting/ground for things like rotom-f, probo, and then the only other popular checks being metang + grumpig; pig is not a switch in for a hurricane, nor does it really have a reliable way of dealing with articuno unless using toxic / getting drops with psychic. All in all, it can 1v1 most things in the meta and then recover up with roost or even pp stall teams, it's just the biggest bitch to deal with and is most definitely not a B+ mon despite having 4x rock weakness, i think the very accessible partners it has to help it out are the reason why it deserves A.

Gourgeist-L -> A- - it should rise for simply how well it deals with setup sweepers, how hard it is to kill and how well it spreads wisp with most teams lacking some sort of heal bell, it should most definitely get a rise. Whilst also having the offensive set which definitely is underrated for sure.

Noms that are less detailed:

Ursaring -> B+ - I think at the moment, its threatened out too easily as a wall breaker, with most teams having a monferno with mach punch to give it a headache, it's the gourgeist that has become extremely popular or the normal resist on top of this on every balance team, i just think it has fallen out of favour.
probopass -> B - I don't know why probo is so highly rated, its bait for fighting types to come in and spam their moves, whilst not even checking a huge majority of the tier since every ice type usually has focus blast, same for grumpig and psychics, then you have things like floatzel.
tangela -> A- - gourgeist is a preferred option right now since the most common physical pokemon are either machoke / monferno, which either knock off or just setup + kill with +2 flare blitz... I just think it's lost the right to be the main "go-to" bulky grass type for now with gourgeist being so good.

 

[Magnemite]

Gourgeist-XL from B+ to A-
Pawniard from A+ to A
Rapidash from A- to B+
Sawsbuck from B+ to B

 

[MaroGod]

Ampharos to C/C+
So yeah this thing is actually really nice with what its got and is given very little credit for its capabilities due to the instant comparison to Electabuzz for a more bulky Electric type.

However, The two niches Ampharos has access to is pretty good both being it's access to a slow and powerful Volt Switch and Heal Bell allowing it to fill a very unique role. When it comes to team building personally i have found Ampharos to be quite splashable on Balance and Bulky-Offense just thanks to its capabilities to bring in mons like Floatzel or Murkrow safetly and ridding status on stuff like Intimidate Arbok and NoChoke. Static is also something to consider while its not a great ability it does put pressure on physical attackers especially those that rely on speed.

Overall, Ampharos is just a solid mon and deserves a rise too at least C.

 

[Rennyjesus]

Ampharos to C/C+
So yeah this thing is actually really nice with what its got and is given very little credit for its capabilities due to the instant comparison to Electabuzz for a more bulky Electric type.

However, The two niches Ampharos has access to is pretty good both being it's access to a slow and powerful Volt Switch and Heal Bell allowing it to fill a very unique role. When it comes to team building personally i have found Ampharos to be quite splashable on Balance and Bulky-Offense just thanks to its capabilities to bring in mons like Floatzel or Murkrow safetly and ridding status on stuff like Intimidate Arbok and NoChoke. Static is also something to consider while its not a great ability it does put pressure on physical attackers especially those that rely on speed.

Overall, Ampharos is just a solid mon and deserves a rise too at least C.

I dunno Maro... Buzz also has Static and while a slow Volt Switch is kinda useful I don't think it will be enough to make it a "valid niche"... Heal Bell is a different story but again Amphy is sooooo slow, that I dunno if it's good enough to be using this kind of move... also Slow Volt Switch + Heal Bell do not fit in the same set, because you will want to be as slow as possible for Volt Switching and as fast as possible for Healing status... so... It might get to "C" but C+ feels like a little bit of a stretch...

See ya!

 

[Complicating]

Ampharos to C/C+
So yeah this thing is actually really nice with what its got and is given very little credit for its capabilities due to the instant comparison to Electabuzz for a more bulky Electric type.

However, The two niches Ampharos has access to is pretty good both being it's access to a slow and powerful Volt Switch and Heal Bell allowing it to fill a very unique role. When it comes to team building personally i have found Ampharos to be quite splashable on Balance and Bulky-Offense just thanks to its capabilities to bring in mons like Floatzel or Murkrow safetly and ridding status on stuff like Intimidate Arbok and NoChoke. Static is also something to consider while its not a great ability it does put pressure on physical attackers especially those that rely on speed.

Overall, Ampharos is just a solid mon and deserves a rise too at least C.

I actually think that Ampharos could be higher than C rank because of its really nice special attack. It may not be speedy, but it is not frail (especially compared to several other electric types). I love using a choice specs Ampharos because there are very few counters. Its slow Volt Switch is wonderful at retaining momentum, Focus Blast provides excellent fighting type coverage (Yes it has 70% accuracy, but so does Rotom's Blizzard.), Thunderbolt is a powerful secondary STAB while Discharge provides some utility in 30% paralysis, and then there is a coverage move for Ampharos which can be determined based on team needs or for something more specific. (example: Signal Beam is useful for hitting Grumpig, various grass types, and in tandem with STAB and Focus Blast covers a great deal of the tier for neutral coverage. Hidden Power Ice, Grass, or Ground would each add their own coverage for a reasonable purpose. Ice would cover ground and grass types better, Grass would cover ground and water types better, and Ground would hit grounded electric types countering a predicted electric move (especially things that run lightningrod, motor drive, or volt absorb) and double cover certain things that Focus Blast covers, just to a lesser extent. Of course, any choice set requires prediction which can be tedious; however, Ampharos is more than capable of taking things out in the mid game stages with a choice specs. Here are some calcs of the Ampharos I use with choice specs (the damage difference between Specs Amp with modest max SpA and 232 modest is ~1.5%, which is miniscule.)

232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Monferno: 288-339 (107 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Monferno Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 220-259 (57.9 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Monferno: 246-291 (91.4 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (OHKOs after rocks)
252+ Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 169-199 (44.1 - 51.9%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Stunfisk Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ampharos: 180-212 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stunfisk: 196-232 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 65.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stunfisk: 196-231 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (meaning that stunfisk shouldn't counter either focus blast or HP Ice)
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 160 HP / 28 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 211-250 (61.8 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Machoke still loses 1v1 on the next turn even if it goes for Knock Off first, Amp outspeeds the common sets and t-bolt does at least 40% to eviolite machoke without a specs. Dynamic punch would be the only way for Machoke to beat Amp because confusion is BS imo.

252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 199-235 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ampharos: 192-227 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You don't even want to know how hard Amp hits Floatzel back. Minimum Volt Switch without specs is over 120%, let's just say that.
252 SpA Choice Specs Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ampharos: 255-300 (66.5 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-F: 368-434 (152.6 - 180%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ampharos: 169-201 (44.1 - 52.4%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-F: 103-122 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 231-273 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 145-172 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Pawniard is faster, and thus Amp will not have specs. So...

232+ SpA Ampharos Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 154-183 (66.6 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
232+ SpA Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 198-234 (85.7 - 101.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

And we should all know Focus Blast does at minimum 300% right?

232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 112-132 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

So yeah, defensive Roselia is a good counter for Specs Amp...

232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Roselia: 158-186 (62.9 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But definitely not the Offensive Roselia. And remember, Volt Switch is a great move in general, which against something like Roselia, is very probable to give you momentum. Offensive Roselia does 2HKO with Sludge Bomb + poison + Sludge Bomb or Sludge Bomb + Leaf Storm though. Even so, Amp does put a great amount of pressure on Roselia as a solid counter. Now... What about other grass types?

232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 264-312 (79 - 93.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Tangela Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ampharos: 123-145 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- 94.6% chance to 3HKO (which should give Tangela between 15% and 23% HP recovered)

So... no. Tangela doesn't win 1v1 against Specs Amp 9 times out of 10. Defensive Tangela can take a shot not called Focus Blast or HP Ice or Signal Beam, but its regenerator will not recover more health than was lost from any of Amps moves, same goes for offensive tangela.

232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 115-136 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 148-175 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Gogoat Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 160-190 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
48 Atk Gogoat Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 170-200 (44.3 - 52.2%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 228 HP / 232+ SpD Gogoat: 164-194 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Okay, so Gogoat can take on Amp 1v1, though Gogoat is relatively rare in the tier compared to other grass types.
252 Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 238-281 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sawsbuck: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Focus Blast OHKOs as long as it lands. When Sawsbuck uses horn leech, Amp still wins 1v1.

232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 246-290 (65.7 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 138-162 (36.8 - 43.3%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Amp also outspeeds most Gourgeist-Super. Gourgiest doesn't really do a lot of damage in return and Volt Switch still grabs momentum regardless.

232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Leafeon: 139-164 (51.2 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

meaning that the only way for Leafeon to take the hit is with a Yache Berry. Focus Blast OHKOs regardless if it lands.

232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Leafeon: 156-183 (57.5 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Leafeon Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 291-343 (75.9 - 89.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Leafeon Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 335-405 (87.4 - 105.7%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Leafeon Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 335-405 (87.4 - 105.7%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO

So... Specs Ampharos actually checks both variants of Leafeon pretty well. If Leafeon does use knock off, then Ampharos's calcs are still favorable:

232+ SpA Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Leafeon: 186-220 (68.6 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (nearly the same damage for Focus Blast)
And of course, Volt Switch gains momentum.
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Arbok: 195-229 (60.1 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 Atk Arbok Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 140-166 (36.5 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So Amp has some chance of winning a 1v1 against defensive Arbok. Offensive?

232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Arbok: 265-313 (101.5 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Arbok Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 300-354 (78.3 - 92.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Arbok Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 200-236 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

If offensive Arbok is at +1 when the 1v1 starts (both at full HP), then Amp has good chances of winning despite the facts.

Armaldo can 1v1 Specs Amp only if it hasn't taken stealth rocks yet.

232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Armaldo: 262-310 (74 - 87.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
92+ Atk Armaldo Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 230-272 (60 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Armaldo's best bet is actually going for knock off first to guarantee that it will live any of Ampharos's moves, and this is the rapid spin set on smogon for Armaldo.
No water type stands a good chance against Amp, and something with ground/water typing might risk HP Grass from Amp in some cases anyway.

No flying type in the tier can take a hit from Amp.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chatot Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ampharos: 324-382 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chatot Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ampharos: 324-382 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Every move Amp has OHKOs Chatot. And this is also Specs Modest Chatot, not the Scarf Variant, which does less damage.

Amp has a relatively small pool of counters, which I think are mostly limited to grass types and Grumpig for solid counters. Other mons like Stunfisk are soft counters to specs Amp. Now again, I completely understand that Amp is not fast enough to beat the whole tier, but Amp does check a number of common threats pretty well. It's really difficult to counter when played right. And because spike stacking is so common, Amp+hazard stacking = show me the counter you don't have. Golem can't come into focus blast or any of the mentioned HP moves very well at all. Even the Golem tank variant, which Amp outspeeds can't handle Specs coverage from Amp. Of course with hazard stacking being common, Amp definitely appreciates hazard control; however, the same can be said about essentially every pokemon in every tier. Specs Amp isn't supposed to clean or sweep. Amp is supposed to take out a threat and check something for your team. There are also a fair number of times where Amp will get more than 1 KO too. I would honestly say that this set could be C+/B- Rank Material at the least. Either way, it does deserve some consideration. (Also, does anybody know how to get a drop-down list for calcs and stuff? I can't figure it out and I want to save room in posts)

mag edit: i appreciate the effort that went into this post but please use the enter button next time lol

 

[Teddeh]

I actually think that Ampharos could be higher than C rank because of its really nice special attack. It may not be speedy, but it is not frail (especially compared to several other electric types). I love using a choice specs Ampharos because there are very few counters. Its slow Volt Switch is wonderful at retaining momentum, Focus Blast provides excellent fighting type coverage (Yes it has 70% accuracy, but so does Rotom's Blizzard.), Thunderbolt is a powerful secondary STAB while Discharge provides some utility in 30% paralysis, and then there is a coverage move for Ampharos which can be determined based on team needs or for something more specific. (example: Signal Beam is useful for hitting Grumpig, various grass types, and in tandem with STAB and Focus Blast covers a great deal of the tier for neutral coverage. Hidden Power Ice, Grass, or Ground would each add their own coverage for a reasonable purpose. Ice would cover ground and grass types better, Grass would cover ground and water types better, and Ground would hit grounded electric types countering a predicted electric move (especially things that run lightningrod, motor drive, or volt absorb) and double cover certain things that Focus Blast covers, just to a lesser extent. Of course, any choice set requires prediction which can be tedious; however, Ampharos is more than capable of taking things out in the mid game stages with a choice specs. Here are some calcs of the Ampharos I use with choice specs (the damage difference between Specs Amp with modest max SpA and 232 modest is ~1.5%, which is miniscule.)
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Monferno: 288-339 (107 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Monferno Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 220-259 (57.9 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Monferno: 246-291 (91.4 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (OHKOs after rocks)
252+ Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 169-199 (44.1 - 51.9%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Stunfisk Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ampharos: 180-212 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stunfisk: 196-232 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 65.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stunfisk: 196-231 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (meaning that stunfisk shouldn't counter either focus blast or HP Ice)
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 160 HP / 28 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 211-250 (61.8 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Machoke still loses 1v1 on the next turn even if it goes for Knock Off first, Amp outspeeds the common sets and t-bolt does at least 40% to eviolite machoke without a specs. Dynamic punch would be the only way for Machoke to beat Amp because confusion is BS imo.
252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 199-235 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ampharos: 192-227 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You don't even want to know how hard Amp hits Floatzel back. Minimum Volt Switch without specs is over 120%, let's just say that.
252 SpA Choice Specs Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ampharos: 255-300 (66.5 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-F: 368-434 (152.6 - 180%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ampharos: 169-201 (44.1 - 52.4%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-F: 103-122 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 231-273 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 145-172 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Pawniard is faster, and thus Amp will not have specs. So...
232+ SpA Ampharos Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 154-183 (66.6 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
232+ SpA Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 198-234 (85.7 - 101.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
And we should all know Focus Blast does at minimum 300% right?
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 112-132 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
So yeah, defensive Roselia is a good counter for Specs Amp...
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Roselia: 158-186 (62.9 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But definitely not the Offensive Roselia. And remember, Volt Switch is a great move in general, which against something like Roselia, is very probable to give you momentum. Offensive Roselia does 2HKO with Sludge Bomb + poison + Sludge Bomb or Sludge Bomb + Leaf Storm though. Even so, Amp does put a great amount of pressure on Roselia as a solid counter. Now... What about other grass types?
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 264-312 (79 - 93.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Tangela Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ampharos: 123-145 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- 94.6% chance to 3HKO (which should give Tangela between 15% and 23% HP recovered) So... no. Tangela doesn't win 1v1 against Specs Amp 9 times out of 10. Defensive Tangela can take a shot not called Focus Blast or HP Ice or Signal Beam, but its regenerator will not recover more health than was lost from any of Amps moves, same goes for offensive tangela.
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 115-136 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 148-175 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Gogoat Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 160-190 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
48 Atk Gogoat Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 170-200 (44.3 - 52.2%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 228 HP / 232+ SpD Gogoat: 164-194 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Okay, so Gogoat can take on Amp 1v1, though Gogoat is relatively rare in the tier compared to other grass types.
252 Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 238-281 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sawsbuck: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Focus Blast OHKOs as long as it lands. When Sawsbuck uses horn leech, Amp still wins 1v1.
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 246-290 (65.7 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 138-162 (36.8 - 43.3%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Amp also outspeeds most Gourgeist-Super. Gourgiest doesn't really do a lot of damage in return and Volt Switch still grabs momentum regardless.
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Leafeon: 139-164 (51.2 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
meaning that the only way for Leafeon to take the hit is with a Yache Berry. Focus Blast OHKOs regardless if it lands.
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Leafeon: 156-183 (57.5 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Leafeon Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 291-343 (75.9 - 89.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Leafeon Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 335-405 (87.4 - 105.7%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Leafeon Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 335-405 (87.4 - 105.7%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
So... Specs Ampharos actually checks both variants of Leafeon pretty well. If Leafeon does use knock off, then Ampharos's calcs are still favorable:
232+ SpA Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Leafeon: 186-220 (68.6 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (nearly the same damage for Focus Blast)
And of course, Volt Switch gains momentum.
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Arbok: 195-229 (60.1 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 Atk Arbok Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 140-166 (36.5 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So Amp has some chance of winning a 1v1 against defensive Arbok. Offensive?
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Arbok: 265-313 (101.5 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Arbok Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 300-354 (78.3 - 92.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Arbok Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 200-236 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
If offensive Arbok is at +1 when the 1v1 starts (both at full HP), then Amp has good chances of winning despite the facts.
Armaldo can 1v1 Specs Amp only if it hasn't taken stealth rocks yet.
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Armaldo: 262-310 (74 - 87.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
92+ Atk Armaldo Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 28 Def Ampharos: 230-272 (60 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Armaldo's best bet is actually going for knock off first to guarantee that it will live any of Ampharos's moves, and this is the rapid spin set on smogon for Armaldo.
No water type stands a good chance against Amp, and something with ground/water typing might risk HP Grass from Amp in some cases anyway.
No flying type in the tier can take a hit from Amp.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chatot Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ampharos: 324-382 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chatot Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ampharos: 324-382 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Every move Amp has OHKOs Chatot. And this is also Specs Modest Chatot, not the Scarf Variant, which does less damage.
Amp has a relatively small pool of counters, which I think are mostly limited to grass types and Grumpig for solid counters. Other mons like Stunfisk are soft counters to specs Amp. Now again, I completely understand that Amp is not fast enough to beat the whole tier, but Amp does check a number of common threats pretty well. It's really difficult to counter when played right. And because spike stacking is so common, Amp+hazard stacking = show me the counter you don't have. Golem can't come into focus blast or any of the mentioned HP moves very well at all. Even the Golem tank variant, which Amp outspeeds can't handle Specs coverage from Amp. Of course with hazard stacking being common, Amp definitely appreciates hazard control; however, the same can be said about essentially every pokemon in every tier. Specs Amp isn't supposed to clean or sweep. Amp is supposed to take out a threat and check something for your team. There are also a fair number of times where Amp will get more than 1 KO too. I would honestly say that this set could be C+/B- Rank Material at the least. Either way, it does deserve some consideration. (Also, does anybody know how to get a drop-down list for calcs and stuff? I can't figure it out and I want to save room in posts)

I appreciate you have a wide variety of calcs that support this nomination but i honestly don't value amph as much in terms of competition for a place on a team in terms of electrics. It has to compete with both stunfisk in terms of defensive capabilities and pokemon like zebstrika, electabuzz, electrode, chinchou, raichu, rotom-f in terms of a place for a spot on the team, in which case there are most of the time reasons for me to prefer to not use this pokemon over another selected pokemon. I think competition in the team builder is the main reason why i don't think amph should be very highly rated as there are usually a handfull of electric checks on every team at the moment that can deal with this such as chinchou, stunfisk etc whilst the other electric types in the tier have the speed to really outpace the tier with some even having a secondary stab, amazing abilities such as sap sipper and lightningrod / volt absorb and similar attacking presence. I know amph has a significantly higher special attack stat, however in terms of speed and usefulness in the team as far as role compacting, I'd much rather use another pokemon or a pokemon like rotom-f who offers dual stab and moves like trick and will-o to break walls.
Secondly, most of your calcs are representing a specs amph, which i don't think is the most effective set as the chances are, most teams in the tier have a ground type stopping the choice locked volt switch and the most powerful coverage being focus blast, it has to hit to be effective, hence another reason why i don't really think amph should be getting as high a B-.
With that being said, I would suggest a place in C rank is fair for amph, however it just depends on how highly you value its niche in PU as there are a lot of other offensive electric types that can offer much more on a team rather than simply being a bulky attacker.

 

[2xTheTap]

C- --> C

I'm in agreement with moving Ampharos up for the same reasons MaroGod cited, and disagree with Rennyjesus on multiple counts:

I dunno Maro... Buzz also has Static and while a slow Volt Switch is kinda useful I don't think it will be enough to make it a "valid niche"... Heal Bell is a different story but again Amphy is sooooo slow, that I dunno if it's good enough to be using this kind of move... also Slow Volt Switch + Heal Bell do not fit in the same set, because you will want to be as slow as possible for Volt Switching and as fast as possible for Healing status... so... It might get to "C" but C+ feels like a little bit of a stretch...

See ya!

Electabuzz wouldn't use Static, as it'd stick with Vital Spirit to combat Pokemon like Jumpluff with its Sleep immunity, resistance to Flying-type attacks, Eviolite-boosted bulk, and Hidden Power Ice, so using the notion Electabuzz already has Static and Volt Switch as a reason to invalidate part of Ampharos's niche in the meta is incorrect. You also talked about not wanting to run a slow Heal Bell user, but most of the meta's valid users of Heal Bell / Aromatherapy are actually in lower Speed tiers as well (e.g. Audino, Clefairy, Altaria, etc.). In fact, it was decided that Heal Bell in tandem with Volt Switch was Ampharos's best set, as that takes advantage of Ampharos's niches in the meta, which as Marogodd already stated, are its powerful and slow STAB Volt Switch and Heal Bell.

Complicating also touched on a set that I tested as I was writing Ampharos's analysis, which is Choice Specs. I tested this extensively before using it as an 'Other Option' here, and it plays similarly to strong wallbreakers like Glaceon and even Exeggutor with its enormous Special Attack stat of 361. Physically defensive Stunfisk actually can't come in on HP Ice, and it can do ridiculous things like 2HKO Dusclops with Thunder, which limits its counters to specially defensive Grass- and Ground-types (and Chinchou, max SpA Specs Focus Blast has a very low chance to 2HKO after SR still). Grass-types like Gogoat and Roselia are simply Volt Switched on, gaining you the momentum and putting you in a position to attack them with something frail, like Murkrow, Dodrio, Kadabra, etc. Meanwhile, it has enough bulk to avoid the OHKO from CB Stoutland's Frustration, which is something other offensive Electric-types in the tier (outside of Intimidate Luxray) are unable to do.

In terms of building, Ampharos is actually easier to build with than some of the Pokemon in C and even in C+; as an offensive cleric, it partners well with Pokemon who cannot afford to take crippling status effects, as well as frail Pokemon who appreciate coming in for free off of Ampharos's slow Volt Switch. That equates to a large number of possible partners, so Ampharos's slot on Bulky Offense and Balance when your team requires a reliable check to Flying-types, a cleric, and a slow Volt Switch all in one Pokemon can certainly be justified.

There are also some Pokemon in these lower tiers that I'd move around; for example, Chinchou and Swalot could move up because of how potent Machoke and Rotom-F are in this current meta, but I'd rather talk about them in a separate post.

 

[Rennyjesus]

Well, let's spark some competitive and hopely sane discussion...

Firstly I've gotta say that a few months ago when we got Amphy, I was told by the esteemed PU council that they were pretty benevolent on Amphy, since having a higher Special Attack doesn't give it a valid niche over Evio-Buzz since their bulk is pretty similar and Buzz also have Static... Let's quote:

C- for Ampharos was basically was actually higher than a lot of the council were saying. Ampharos doesn't have any huge niches in practise, especially as an AV user you can barely justify use over Electrabuzz (which importantly outspeeds rotom-f) and bouffalant, as ampharos lacks important special resists outside of electric which just volt switch on it. Additionally there are tons of bulky Pokemon like Roselia and Stunfisk which can wall it, as most teams are now very well prepared for electric types. Agility also has an issue of being slow in a metagame where choice scarf users are on almost every team. So overall it only fits on teams in very specific cases.

So, let's see... while the wall of calcs by our friend Complicating is pretty impressive I've gotta say that since you are using a Choice Specs Set you will need for sure have pretty good prediction skills (and pretty much rely on your opponent not outpredicts you), because while it's pretty nice to smack Ferno with a Tbolt or Rotom-F with a Focus Blast, let's see what happens if you mispredict against a few of your threats:

Wall of Convenient Calcs

Against Monferno:
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Monferno: 55-65 (20.4 - 24.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

More than enough to let Ferno nab a Swords Dance and maim your team...

Then Rotom-F:
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-F: 103-122 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-F: 103-122 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO

While SR obviously always makes things easier against Rotom-F, still Rotom F can beat Amphy kinda easily in a lot of 1 Vs 1 situations, getting 2 Blizzards in a row (which will be faster than those two Tbolts) or just trick the Scarf and get a Specs, making Amphy not only slow but kinda weak (And still choice locked):

232+ SpA Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-F: 69-81 (28.6 - 33.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 28 SpD Ampharos: 246-289 (64.2 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This means that while Rotom-F can't still OHKO Amphy, Amphy will probably switch on SR one more time... getting its HP to 75%... and putting it in OHKO chance (even if it's a small one) or just almost done by another foe.

Let's see Pawn:
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 66-78 (28.5 - 33.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO

Oh... I can just nab a Swords Dance boost before Knocking your specs:
+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ampharos: 298-352 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

And even after that Amphy will be slower... so, Pawn can just finish it with another Knock Off...

And what about Tangela?
232+ SpA Choice Specs Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 148-175 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

While Amphy still has a decent chance to 2HKO offensive Tangela with TBolt, a minimum Giga Drain roll will heal 59 Damage which means that Tangela will technically have 334+59 = 393 HP, then 175+175 (both maximum rolls) +42 HP lost from SR that makes a 392 total... not enough for the 2HKO... Then:
252+ SpA Tangela Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 28 SpD Ampharos: 205-243 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

53.5+30.8 % from minimum rolls Leaf Storm + Giga Drain + 12,5 % from SR = 96,8% damage...
With a simple linear interpolation we can approximate the chance for the 2HKO after SR and that will be around 80% chance for the 2HKO... not bad for off Tang huh?

And those are just a few examples of what misprediction-outpredictions can lead to... so, at the end IMO 1Vs1 calcs are not completely truthful on a choice locked mon because of that factor.

About the Static Vs Vital Spirit thing on Buzz I've also got to disagree, since Static is a perfectly valid ability for Buzz... Vital Spirit will give you reliability on beating Jumpluff (and a way to pivot through Rose and Tang I guess) and Static is just a chance (it can still paralyze Jump in the Acro switch in) but Static will also punish a few other physical attackers, kinda like Rapidash using Flame Body instead of Flash Fire... yes, an immunity will be much more reliable than a chance for paralysis or burn, but a timed paralysis - burn, can be pretty much game changing (and will make your opponent wary of smacking those pokés with physical attacks, especially U-Turn in Volt-Turn cores)...

Also, of course Amphy can run both Heal Bell and Volt Switch in the same set, but again, I would rather give it a little bit of speed to try healing as fast as possible and since we will probably need cleric capabilities around the midgame, we can probably say that Amphy might be getting a little bit more damage than it should, to handle some strong attacks and leaving it prone to be just death fodder instead of a cleric; and then giving it speed will make its Volt Switch, not as slow as it should be against a few things like Rose, Gourg, defensive Pig and Tang...

About its "splashability", yep, I also feel that it is higher than some other things like Weepinbell but I can't feel that it's higher than some C+ pokés like Ramp and Meow (maybe we can start downgrading a few things from C+ instead of letting Amphy go there).

Finally about its positioning, I also think that it should go to C, because Slow Volt Switch + Heal Bell are valid niches but C+ is a little bit too far for something that will still receive huge competition from Rotom-F (one of the two best mons in this meta) as a powerful electric type and as a cleric by one of the others that Tap listed, since even if other clerics are also sluggish, they have clear advantages over Amphy on their cleric capabilities, with Altaria higher speed/better defensive typing, Audino switching in and out with ease thanks to Regenerator and Clefairy not receiving damage by hazards (not counting that all three of them also have auto healing win Roost - Wish - Softboiled respectively, making them more durable in the long run).

See ya guys! :3

 

[MZ]

Well, let's spark some competitive and hopely sane discussion...

Firstly I've gotta say that a few months ago when we got Amphy, I was told by the esteemed PU council that they were pretty benevolent on Amphy, since having a higher Special Attack doesn't give it a valid niche over Evio-Buzz since their bulk is pretty similar and Buzz also have Static... Let's quote:

Whatever we thought a few months ago simply doesn't apply. That's plenty of time for a metagame to change and new things to be discovered. A few months ago Lapras was C rank, now it's one of the best B ranks imo. Things change, what anty said a few months ago isn't any reason for Amphy's placement to change
As for static on buzz, it's not the worst thing but in practice you're rarely sponging random physical attacks (i don't remember the last time I needed buzz to switch into something stronger than vullaby foul play) and buzz's main niche is its bulk, so then not being able to pivot into jumpluff drops one of the more threatening things its bulk actually helps with.

 

[tehy]

2 things:

when you say 'electabuzz would prefer to run vital spirit because X and Y', you forget that, most likely, Ampharos would also prefer to run Vital Spirit, if it had the option. Which is to say, if you consider Static to be some kind of advantage, you could just use it on Electabuzz - the fact that no one does signals it's not really an advantage, and if you want it so bad it's there, waiting for you.

that said, if there is some reason why Ampharos uses Static better, then you can point that out. Obviously its higher bulk is that reason (even with Eviolite, which already requires a significant concession in power, you're still far taking 94-111 from CB stout's return, whereas amph takes like 70-83). And since it's capable of using a slow volt switch, it can afford to run a lot of HP, unlike Electabuzz, who if it runs 252 HP is A: bad and B: outclassed. So yeah, just a thing I had to say about this argumentation type because, while it was fine in this case, I see it a lot in situations where it's not.

 

[Rennyjesus]

Whatever we thought a few months ago simply doesn't apply. That's plenty of time for a metagame to change and new things to be discovered. A few months ago Lapras was C rank, now it's one of the best B ranks imo. Things change, what anty said a few months ago isn't any reason for Amphy's placement to change
As for static on buzz, it's not the worst thing but in practice you're rarely sponging random physical attacks (i don't remember the last time I needed buzz to switch into something stronger than vullaby foul play) and buzz's main niche is its bulk, so then not being able to pivot into jumpluff drops one of the more threatening things its bulk actually helps with.

I totally agree with you... but things have changed a bit for Lapras since those times, especially the Exeggutor ban that was not only a boon for Lapras, but also a boon for those Water types that Lapras loves to switch into (Vigoroth was also one of those things that could set up subs on Lapras and start boosting, so, that's another one).

However, what have really changed for Amphy since its placement in D? or since its rise to C-? that some people realized Specs Amphy is both bulky (it is bulkier than Buzz... that's a fact that has not changed at all and it was supposed to get into consideration for Amphy in "D" rank) and powerful while giving a slow Volt Switch that hits like a truck, especially if you mispredict? sure... that can be perfectly enough for C (where another powerful electric type is) and maybe after more testing it could go higher. While I've tested and it can pull its weight, there is one problem and maybe all of us have always thought about it and it's the "Outclassing" thing.

How should we place a thing that it is powerful and can be played nicely but we still have something better to use? (Remember the Barbaracle-Carracosta thing against Huntail? Huntail was E in that meta just because it was outclassed even if it was perfectly viable-usable-dangerous) What we call a pokémon that only has a few perks when compared to another one? (Like Rotom-F, NP Rai, EvioBuzz)... yeah we usually call them "Niche", and those "Niche" things might get a few of them over D or C-, but rarely they get higher than C+, (which I know it's the real aim for Maro and not higher) and more rarely get two sub ranks in one update.

Then, another thing that I personally think is that A rank and below are pretty bloated and we should think more about dropping instead of rising because honestly the difference in viability for some things like Dodrio and let's say Metang, it's pretty significant to me to be just separated by one sub-rank. Remember that a lot of new people will be using this as a reference, and a less bloated VR will allow us to stop seeing some cancerous things in the ladder, or at least reducing them to a passable amount.

See ya!

 

[GeneralAnnoyance]

I'd really like to see Monferno to S. I know it's been brought up before but I feel like it didn't get enough discussion going the last time around.

This mon is incredibly meta defining right now and I feel like it's important for our tier list to reflect that Monferno is one of the most threatening and splashable mons in PU. We have very little counters for it and SD + Mach Punch combo allows it to easily threaten late game checks like (Chatot, Dodrio, Waters like Simipour and Floatzel without jet). Meta defining balance and offense mons like cyrogonal, pawniard, leafeon are easily checked by it thereby giving it more versatility than just an SD sweeper (similar to Poli of XY with slightly less versatility). The meta has shaped to manage monferno's dominance and this can be explained by Monferno being our 2nd most used mon in PU with a ridiculous 19% usage and Grumpig being our 8th most used mon with 12% usage. Golem being the highest used mon in the tier with 21% usage has significantly impacted monferno's usefulness by being able to revenge it at +2 after say a failed 1v1 Golem lead matchup. Stunfisk has always been a good switch in for a couple of close combats, but Monferno does 58.2 - 68.9% at +2 and that severely limits Stunfisk from taking any chip damage from other members because it needs to be used to handle Monf. Lastly, Altaria has fallen out of favor recently because Cryogonal and Rotom have become very meta dominant so this only pressures its usefulness at handling monferno and keeping momentum between rocks, roosting, and ice checks.

Calcs

+2 252+ Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 246-291 (58.2 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
2 252+ Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Altaria: 167-197 (57.3 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swanna: 111-132 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock