Serious Orlando mass shooting

[apt-get]

All right, now that my electricity issues have been resolved and I've watched news covering the tragedy more, I think I'm ready to speak about it and other topics related to it. Agree or disagree with me, at least hear me out.

Overview of the Shooter

(handsome guy, wasn't he?)
On Sunday, June 12, 2016, a scumbag by the name of Omar Mateen, who, with obvious homophobic ideals, murdered 50 people (might rise due to deaths from injuries, etc.) and injured 53 others at a gay bar in Orlando, Florida. It has been reported that the shooter had pledged allegiance to ISIS (or whatever the fuck you want to call these awful people) and was also investigated by the FBI, who obviously dropped the ball in their investigation, seeing that he committed the worst mass shooting in American history, with the death toll surpassing even the Virginia Tech (33 dead) and Sandy Hook related shootings (28 dead).

The LGBTQ Community
This shooting is yet another instance in which innocent people were killed for absolutely no reason other than bigotry. Such a shame that some people in the world still haven't progressed past the horrible practice of eliminating anything they disagree with with little to no viable reason to it. Whether you are a member of the LGBTQ community, a person tolerant of other's sexual orientation, or someone who disagrees with homosexuality, etc., you (as a person) have to agree that killing innocents (no matter their background, beliefs, etc.) is wrong, and if you don't, you are obviously a person that doesn't deserve to interact with the outside world and need to be caged before you kill someone or something.

Muslims and the Islam Faith
Because of the actions of Muslim extremists, followers of Islam constantly face Islamophobia from the hands of bigots who judged a whole group of people based on some bad apples. While it is true I'm not an expert on the Islam faith, I do know some Muslims in my personal life, and they are as kind as anyone else I've met. I ask anyone reading this to judge a person just on their individual personality, actions, etc., rather than sticking them under one umbrella with others who ruin the image of the innocents of those particular groups. Whether you agree with Islam and religion in general or not, everyone please respect everyone else's right to religious freedom.

Gun Control
Oh, boy, what an annoying topic to discuss. While I agree that the 2nd amendment should exist, gun toting idiots like this fool and many, many others, abuse this right and, for some reason, make their own huge fucking arsenal and shit, with automatic weapons and hundreds of rounds of ammunition, like they're preparing for WWIII in their front lawn or something. Completely banning guns and having 0 restrictions are both asking for trouble. People suspected of suspicious activities, like this fool, should have all their shit taken away so more innocent people don't have to die. If you are cool about your guns (not shooting up everything, not showing mental issues), then I don't really care about your gun ownership status.

Conclusion
If there's a part of this you will actually read, read this part. Appreciate all that you have. Enjoy all the time you have on this Earth alive, because it could be snatched away in an instant. Be tolerant of other's beliefs/life styles (unless they greatly negatively affect others). Always stay alert. And, finally, send your condolences to Orlando and the victims' families via Social Media.

he wasn't under active investigation by the FBI: he MIGHT have had ties to the boston bomber, but they were insubstantial

"Because of the actions of Muslim extremists, followers of Islam constantly face Islamophobia from the hands of bigots who judged a whole group of people based on some bad apples."

It's worth noting that, in the islamic world, more than three quarters of muslims believe homosexuality is morally wrong (pew research center). There's definitely a bigotry issue outside of the west. Living in a muslim country myself, almost everyone I know thinks homosexuality is wrong.

 

[Rugi]

Gun Laws:
To all people who object against stricter gun laws, why are they working in countries that have them? I have relatives in Canada and Japan who were both rather disturbed when they realised the ease of which you could obtain a gun when going to the US. Both of those countries have far stricter gun laws and, surprise, far less shootings and homicide problems. Though other factors come into play such as quality of social services in other countries and etc. Is it really a coincidence that countries with stricter gun laws have less problems with guns. And before you point out your right to own a weapon why? What do you need a weapon that is designed for the explicit purpose of killing humans and animals for? If its to protect yourself great, but do you actually plan on firing it when you feel like your in danger, who knows if you'll be doing the right thing or hitting the right person. Your possession of a gun is more likely to cause an accident than it is to save your life. Is to rebel against the government should they ever go corrupt? I hate tell but most countries in the world are fairly corrupt and no matter how many guns you have you're not going to be doing much to stop the US military or any police force. Is it because you like collecting them? In similar vain to collecting swords and the like thats a bit weird and honestly makes you seem like you have a problem, its like an alcoholic who drinks a lot having the excuse that they "enjoy collecting the beer bottles". Do you just like firing guns? Go to a place where you can rent one and knock yourself out.

Finally to all people that say gun laws won't change shit, Im sure you're aware that most first world countries have strict gun laws and as a result. Less problems with guns? My own home country of Australia increased gun laws immensely after a shooting and who would've guessed, we suffered far less problems since then.
If everybody in the world is looking at you guys as if you have the problem, then perhaps you do.

Religion:
On the topic of religion, are you guys really gonna claim that a religion that, in places where it practiced, actively encourages the killing of homosexuals, has nothing to do with this issue. Obviously generalizing a religion and all that believe in it is wrong and is a recipe for horrible things to happen but are you really going to insist that religion has nothing to do with it when of the 10~ countries that have the death penalty for homosexuality, all of them are muslim majority? Christianity and Judaism became more accepting of different sexual orientations long ago (though they still have a lot to go to reach an acceptable level) and its time for Islam to do the same.

LGBTQ:
If you are actually against LGBTQ rights. Why? Why do you care? Even if you think its wrong, they effect you in no way whatsoever. Have a think about that. Im not sure how schooling goes in the U.S but here in Aus my school is covered in posters celebrating gay rights and being homophobic is one of the worst things you can do. I hope that as more accepting people get into power we'll start seeing this less and less.

whew, now that I've pissed off the entire population of the Muslim world and the U.S.A, my heart goes out to the victims and families of this event. I hope that you are all safe and receive all the support you can get.

when more stuff comes out about this, I'll probably make a more organised post, until then, this'll have to do.

 

[Icing On Da Cake]

he wasn't under active investigation by the FBI: he MIGHT have had ties to the boston bomber, but they were insubstantial

"Because of the actions of Muslim extremists, followers of Islam constantly face Islamophobia from the hands of bigots who judged a whole group of people based on some bad apples."

It's worth noting that, in the islamic world, more than three quarters of muslims believe homosexuality is morally wrong (pew research center). There's definitely a bigotry issue outside of the west. Living in a muslim country myself, almost everyone I know thinks homosexuality is wrong.

maybe the news just bullshitting me about the fbi thing idk. ty about the info about muslims, that needs to change too

 

[jrp]

let's not whitewash the fact that in nearly every islamic country in the middle east, being gay is punishable by death. There are few examples (besides a few fringe cases) of that in any other religion.

I'm not denying that "good" muslims exist. Hell, they probably make up well over 99% of the population. But the fact is that their holy book doesn't have a "New Testament" that overwrites all of the bigoted laws of the old testament. The "good" muslims are the ones not following the koran to a T.

I had to read the koran for one of my history courses in college, and let me tell you, it's not a pretty thing to read. Lines calling for men to treat their wives as they would their fields, lines calling for homosexuals to be killed.

As a member of the lgbt community, I find that shit terrifying. There aren't any christian-based countries around that have it in their laws for me to be executed (besides a couple countries in Africa). If I went pretty much anywhere in the middle east, which is predominantly islamic, I'd be at risk of being executed at pretty much any point.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

I'm voluntarily ejecting myself from the gun control debate. Neither side has any fucking idea what the word "nuance" means and the conversation never goes anywhere as a result. If you want anything to happen, look up the word "nuance" in a dictionary.

As for the shooting itself, I heard about it when I woke up this morning. It just goes to show that there is definitely still an issue with religiously-motivated bigotry, especially with Islam. The sad thing is, you can't force people into acceptance. As much as I wish that were a solution - this terrifies me as a bisexual male - trying to force people to accept things only creates resentment. Maybe if we'd be more willing to discuss LGBTQ issues in school, we could slowly improve the situation. If that means a federal mandate of some sort (especially to make school districts in the Midwest/South have a LGBTQ-acceptance tone because ain't no way they're doing it themselves), then I'll take it. The sad thing is, there has to be a federal mandate of some sort if we want improvement.

 

[Solace]

the united states is never going to ban guns -- 20 kindergarteners were shot and all the politicians had to offer were "thoughts and prayers" rather than, you know, taking the kind of action they're elected to take. it certainly isn't going to change with the deaths of 50 lgbt+ people.

however, i think it's hypocritical to only blame islam/islamic culture for this. there are plenty of christians who claim to be following the bible as it is written who are violently homophobic and believed that this was retribution (!!!) for people being gay. there are politicians that follow christian beliefs who actively vote against laws that would increase the quality of life for lgbt+ people because of their religious beliefs and then at the same time condemn muslims for having homophobic beliefs in their religion.

the fact of the matter is that this was a preventable tragedy. if this country didn't allow guns to be so easily obtained, we wouldn't have to hear about mass shootings so often. whatever people's views are of whether or not you should own a gun, the 2nd amendment was written when guns required powder and shot one at a time and were gigantic and cumbersome to hold. they never foresaw assault rifles with 100+ bullet magazines and rapid fire capabilities. the 2nd amendment was certainly not written to guarantee you the right to a device that could be used to slaughter large numbers of your fellow citizens.

 

[Icing On Da Cake]

The Muslims I know my personal life definitely don't act that I guess because they aren't strict followers of Islam I was mostly refering to the ones in the US too not in war torn countries like Syria or something so their background isn't as harsh

 

[Punxsutawney Phil]

Am I the only one here who's worried that the Islamic State is far more dangerous and far, far more powerful than anybody takes it to be?

The killer did pledge allegiance to the Islamic State during a 911 call which he made while he carried out the attack. Here: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/12/police-orlando-gunman-pledged-allegiance-to-isis-c/

Notable quote: The gunman who killed 50 people at a popular Orlando gay nightclub early Sunday had twice come under investigation by the FBI for potential terrorist ties and paused during the attack to call 911 in order to pledge allegiance to the Islamic State, according to a police statement.

Given the FBI's suspicions, it's quite likely that he has been working for the Islamic State for quite some time while in the U.S., and with this attack, in addition to the terrorist attacks at San Bernadino, Belgium, and Paris, it's becoming more and more apparent that the Islamic State now has incredibly powerful global influence, and I do not doubt that it has countless operatives in the U.S., France, Britain, etc. Now, Omar could have just been a fanboy, or even just crazy, but again, these rapid attacks seem to be more of a focused series of jabs at the Western world, attacks which people like him, hiding in plain sight, could have helped orchestrate. The idea that these recent terrorist attacks are not very connected is a risky way of thinking that fails to see the organization behind them.

You have the right to call me paranoid, of course. And you can have the right to then hear of the next attack and get completely shocked all over again. The Islamic State, of course, said they would attack Florida a few weeks ago. Nobody paid attention, and that ignorance has claimed lives in innocent club goers. Only recently, the Islamic State has publicly said that it plans to launch terrorist attacks at the 2016 World Cup in Brazil, compounding a situation already made bad by Zika and government corruption. Like most statements from ISIS, it will be ignored by the population at large, or dismissed as bluster. Then we can all have the luxury of being surprised again by another death toll in the double, triple, maybe even quadruple digits.

What are we doing right now? Arguing about gun control? As if feel good, "safety" legislation would even remotely address the root of the problem. Gun control did not save Paris. Gun control did not save Brussels - it couldn't even have an effect, they used bombs. Gun control has not saved anybody from a terrorist attack, and gun control certainly would not save Brazil. Gun control is about as effective as a wet noodle.

 

[vonFiedler]

Am I the only one here who's worried that the Islamic State is far more dangerous and far, far more powerful than anybody takes it to be?

Who exactly do you think isn't concerned about how powerful and dangerous they are? Where have you lived where between San Bernadino and now this wasn't one of the biggest talking points and propelling forces for at least one of the major political parties in the country? You can even see the type of cliched responses that we've seen for over a year now in this thread.

 

[Punxsutawney Phil]

There's more concern about gun control in this thread than the real issue, which is the actual perpetrator of the cause (ISIS) and how to properly combat it. There's still this dumb idea that the Islamic State is some sort of group like Al Qaeda or the Taliban, when it is leaps and bounds more influential. It's a straight up state, a government. It undoubtedly has hundreds, maybe thousands, of cells operating in the U.S. alone, waiting for opportune moments to strike, and supplying materials to other operatives and assisting with the organization in the meantime. That doesn't even take into account millions of unofficial, quiet, sympathizers around the globe.

It's telling that we've all started to blame ourselves for this attack, as if we had it coming for lack of gun laws. As if suddenly we can push though some asinine bill and mitigate the problem. As if such laws would even make terrorists bat an eye. Did they bat an eye in the Bataclan or Brussels?

 

[Aberforth]

I find it curious to see the response this has had from America and the rest of the world, and the contrast it shows. Most of the American responses I've seen have been focusing on Islam, whereas most of the non-American responses I've seen have been "Another mass shooting in America? When will they fix their laws?"

Obviously neither should be ignored, the people who say that this has nothing to do with Islam are lying, either to everyone or to themselves. But its a hell of a lot easier to kill people when you've got the access to these weapons that suspected terrorists have in America.

 

[Punxsutawney Phil]

I find it curious to see the response this has had from America and the rest of the world, and the contrast it shows. Most of the American responses I've seen have been focusing on Islam, whereas most of the non-American responses I've seen have been "Another mass shooting in America? When will they fix their laws?"

Obviously neither should be ignored, the people who say that this has nothing to do with Islam are lying, either to everyone or to themselves. But its a hell of a lot easier to kill people when you've got the access to these weapons that suspected terrorists have in America.

But what about France? Did their gun laws help them with their attack? Did it help them against an organized, cohesive force that could easily skirt their laws which honestly only served to annoy those who wanted to get them legally? In a matter of hours deaths in Paris had exceeded Columbine, Virginia Tech, Sandy Hook, and all the rest, and for what? Their presence of gun control? Didn't help a bit.

It's the Islamic State people. They laugh at gun laws. They're up to their ears in "assault rifles" and ways to skirt them past clueless bureaucrats, and turn them onto an unsuspecting population.

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

Gun Laws:
To all people who object against stricter gun laws, why are they working in countries that have them? I have relatives in Canada and Japan who were both rather disturbed when they realised the ease of which you could obtain a gun when going to the US. Both of those countries have far stricter gun laws and, surprise, far less shootings and homicide problems. Though other factors come into play such as quality of social services in other countries and etc. Is it really a coincidence that countries with stricter gun laws have less problems with guns. And before you point out your right to own a weapon why? What do you need a weapon that is designed for the explicit purpose of killing humans and animals for? If its to protect yourself great, but do you actually plan on firing it when you feel like your in danger, who knows if you'll be doing the right thing or hitting the right person. Your possession of a gun is more likely to cause an accident than it is to save your life. Is to rebel against the government should they ever go corrupt? I hate tell but most countries in the world are fairly corrupt and no matter how many guns you have you're not going to be doing much to stop the US military or any police force. Is it because you like collecting them? In similar vain to collecting swords and the like thats a bit weird and honestly makes you seem like you have a problem, its like an alcoholic who drinks a lot having the excuse that they "enjoy collecting the beer bottles". Do you just like firing guns? Go to a place where you can rent one and knock yourself out.

Finally to all people that say gun laws won't change shit, Im sure you're aware that most first world countries have strict gun laws and as a result. Less problems with guns? My own home country of Australia increased gun laws immensely after a shooting and who would've guessed, we suffered far less problems since then.
If everybody in the world is looking at you guys as if you have the problem, then perhaps you do.

Religion:
On the topic of religion, are you guys really gonna claim that a religion that, in places where it practiced, actively encourages the killing of homosexuals, has nothing to do with this issue. Obviously generalizing a religion and all that believe in it is wrong and is a recipe for horrible things to happen but are you really going to insist that religion has nothing to do with it when of the 10~ countries that have the death penalty for homosexuality, all of them are muslim majority? Christianity and Judaism became more accepting of different sexual orientations long ago (though they still have a lot to go to reach an acceptable level) and its time for Islam to do the same.

LGBTQ:
If you are actually against LGBTQ rights. Why? Why do you care? Even if you think its wrong, they effect you in no way whatsoever. Have a think about that. Im not sure how schooling goes in the U.S but here in Aus my school is covered in posters celebrating gay rights and being homophobic is one of the worst things you can do. I hope that as more accepting people get into power we'll start seeing this less and less.

whew, now that I've pissed off the entire population of the Muslim world and the U.S.A, my heart goes out to the victims and families of this event. I hope that you are all safe and receive all the support you can get.

when more stuff comes out about this, I'll probably make a more organised post, until then, this'll have to do.

Hey rugi, ngl didn't read your whole post.


Let me ask you something... These countries with very strict gun laws you speak of.... What would THE PEOPLE of the country ever do if they had to PROTECT themselves against their heavily armed governments?

I'm not trying to imply government is bad or wants to get you, just asking.

You see, the founding fathers in this country that is USA wanted people to have the option to protect themselves against TYRANNY, so what?!
You can look at that as a bad thing but I don't! I'm not blasting your post defending gun laws, but let's just take away cops guns too if guns are so dangerous...ijs....

 

[Aberforth]

But what about France? Did their gun laws help them with their attack? Did it help them against an organized, cohesive force that could easily skirt their laws which honestly only served to annoy those who wanted to get them legally? In a matter of hours deaths in Paris had exceeded Columbine, Virginia Tech, Sandy Hook, and all the rest, and for what? Their presence of gun control? Didn't help a bit.

It's the Islamic State people. They laugh at gun laws. They're up to their ears in "assault rifles" and ways to skirt them past clueless bureaucrats, and turn them onto an unsuspecting population.

This wasn't an organized cohesive force. This was one bloke who picked up a tool to kill people for a couple hundred bucks and then went on to definitely kill 50 people, with 53 people in hospital in various conditions.

 

[Asek]

Hey rugi, ngl didn't read your whole post.


Let me ask you something... These countries with very strict gun laws you speak of.... What would THE PEOPLE of the country ever do if they had to PROTECT themselves against their heavily armed governments?

I'm not trying to imply government is bad or wants to get you, just asking.

You see, the founding fathers in this country that is USA wanted people to have the option to protect themselves against TYRANNY, so what?!
You can look at that as a bad thing but I don't! I'm not blasting your post defending gun laws, but let's just take away cops guns too if guns are so dangerous...ijs....

Every good democracy has ways to ensure that the power isnt vested too heavily into one group ensuring that such drastic abuses of power doesnt happen. There are many checks on government power in Australia especially (i know this is where he lives) including the bi cameral system, Governor General and the 2 party system amongst others.

if it really came down to it though are you really going to protect yourself with your handgun from an f22 or something like that.

e: pledging allegiance to islamic state /=/ being an attack coordinated by IS. Until the facts are cleared up i think its not suitable to think that IS did coordinate this attack on US soil. the implications of such an occurance would be far greater than this being a one man show

 

[Punxsutawney Phil]

This wasn't an organized cohesive force. This was one bloke who picked up a tool to kill people for a couple hundred bucks and then went on to definitely kill 50 people, with 53 people in hospital in various conditions.

This is what I'm talking about when I say people don't take ISIS seriously. It's this idea, exhibited right here, that a man who pledged allegiance to the Islamic State and was very likely working for them for years was not part of "an organized cohesive force". Under different circumstances I would agree with you that this man was probably a lone wolf. But the Islamic State has targeted Florida specifically, and has stated that they would attack such a place publicly only three days ago. And then, of course, it happened. It seems more and more likely that these "lone wolf" attacks fall coincidentally in line with what the Islamic State says it will do time and time again.

The FBI says there is no evidence of a direct link as of now, at this very moment, but that just means the FBI errs on the side of caution and that the Islamic State's operatives in the U.S. are good at not leaving behind evidence everywhere.

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

Every good democracy has ways to ensure that the power isnt vested too heavily into one group ensuring that such drastic abuses of power doesnt happen. There are many checks on government power in Australia especially (i know this is where he lives) including the bi cameral system, Governor General and the 2 party system amongst others.

if it really came down to it though are you really going to protect yourself with your handgun from an f22 or something like that.

e: pledging allegiance to islamic state /=/ being an attack coordinated by IS. Until the facts are cleared up i think its not suitable to think that IS did coordinate this attack on US soil. the implications of such an occurance would be far greater than this being a one man show

you bring up a valid point, don't bring a gun to a jet fight. here's the thing though, buried underneath your rhetoric is the very real possibility of all out war against citizens.


Let's assume this is the situation:

A first world country is tired of its government's shananigans. People take to the street and YOU are a government, would you rather those people have guns or not? Please be honest.

 

[Aberforth]

Organised cohesive force implies something other than a one man situation. In this shooting, while I have no doubt it was because of ISIS, this happened because a man known to have terrorist sympathies was able to purchase a weapon designed to murder other humans with no legal issue.

If you believe in few to no regulations on guns, thats fine, you're allowed to do that. But own it. Because that viewpoint enables ISIS sympathisers easy access to these weapons which do result in deaths. That is not to say that that viewpoint in and of itself is wrong, but it is a consequence of that viewpoint. Because people want to protect themselves from a hypothetical tyranical government that does not exist and likely will not, they will not allow for any restrictions on anybody to purchase a machine designed to kill things with brutal efficiency.

You're allowed to think that way. Just dont pretend that when this or the next massacre happens, that this is not in any way related to the ease of gun ownership.

 

[moonbound]

I'm in favor of at least slightly stricter gun control but the rhetorical and logic of the gun control arguments I see piss me off. Sure he bought the guns as a civillian, but he was also capable of getting employed as a guard/defense contractor, and unless I'm gravely mistaken that's a position that offers relatively easy access to firearms in every country on the planet.

The issue is background checks, as much as it is gun access, and the volume of them that need to be done here. If any of you geniuses with all the answers know how to fix that problem without increasing the already controversial American Surveillance State, please feel free to share.

 

[UncleSam]

Just once it would be nice if the facts could be related in a manner consistent with the truth, not spun to fit PC propaganda. Some people literally are blaming the 'Christian Right' for this.

I'd just like to see President Obama tell the truth and call it what it is: Radical Islamic Terrorism. While we're being open and honest, I hope we can also use this as a springboard towards discussing why anyone would ever need an assault rifle in this country if not to kill countless innocent civilians.

Does anyone know if this was specifically planned to be an anti-LGBTQ hate crime, or if the goal was simply to murder as many Americans as possible? It isn't 100% clear to me on this front, though given Islam's general homophobia I would certainly presume it was meant as a hate crime.

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

I hope we can also use this as a springboard towards discussing why anyone would ever need an assault rifle in this country if not to kill countless innocent civilians.

THIS...you see I don't own an assault rifle or know any civilian who does. However I see videos showing cops carrying assault rifles always. If law enforcement have access to it so should we. Just my opinion, flame if you like. Not going to change my mind.

 

[HailFall]

This absolutely was a hate crime holy shit the shooter did it because he saw two men kissing and they specifically targeted a gay bar.

Also im sure loving how the only time so many straight people care this much about violence against lgbt people is when they can use it to justify their hatred of yet another oppressed group of people lmao.....

 

[UncleSam]

THIS...you see I don't own an assault rifle or know any civilian who does. However I see videos showing cops carrying assault rifles always. If law enforcement have access to it so should we. Just my opinion, flame if you like. Not going to change my mind.

I do disagree in that I generally trust the state not to oppress it's citizens, but I don't disagree with the general principle. I do think it's important that the police have access to some technology which is illegal for civilians to have because criminals might also have illegal access to it, however, so refraining from allowing anyone to have it seems silly.

 

[jumpluff]

Yes, it was a hate crime

I agree with HailFall

Even on here few people can be bothered to discuss that aspect of it or even acknowledge it was a tragedy; it's interesting to compare gun control discourse in this event to the normal sacredness of guns after a school shooting or whatever. I don't disagree that this is entirely political, but the fact people are feeling free to politicise it where normally there would be a kerfuffle over even doing that is highly indicative of the angle here

Hate crimes against LGBTQ people are in huge part responsible for a remarkably above average death rate and low life expectancy in the queer community, and a huge reason for the way the queer community has formed into a relatively insular way. AIDS crisis, trans people using the bathroom, criminalisation of homosexuality, ostracism and hate crimes due to disgust from secular and religious communities, etc. have yielded murder after murder against the queer community. They happen as crimes of passion quite frequently too, and frequent police mistreatment. In fact, I would say hate crimes are the biggest issue for queer people as a collective, along with poverty and youth homeless (i.e. unsafety), and I would like to see the national discourse focus on the safety of queer people as well. It's not just ISIS that hates queer people -- with all the backlash against queer people right now, hate crimes are quit ea serious issue

P.S. I'm not anti-gun and I'm not going to wade into that at the moment, I'll post on my stance on gun control as it pertains to minorities later when I'm not feeling like throwing up

Obviously I'm fairly affected by this right now. Like I'm sick to my stomach, so posting is hard

 

[Punxsutawney Phil]

This absolutely was a hate crime holy shit the shooter did it because he saw two men kissing and they specifically targeted a gay bar.

Also im sure loving how the only time so many straight people care this much about violence against lgbt people is when they can use it to justify their hatred of yet another oppressed group of people lmao.....

I am highly skeptical that it was just because the shooter saw two gay men kissing. That is actually the claim by the shooter's father, who, mind you, actively and vocally supports the Taliban (he's actually got a Youtube talk channel where he supports them, check it out if you want to feel unclean). This dangerous man most likely ignored or even encouraged his son's terrorist sympathies, and now he's trying to cover his own ass. That's why he's saying things like "my son saw two gay men kissing [and that made him kill people]" and "this has nothing to do with religion" (actual words btw).

Not saying it's not a hate crime, but the idea that the shooter just got mad at gay people one day ignores the big picture, given the son's terrorist sympathies, the terrorist sympathies of his father, and the Islamic State as a whole.

Here's what probably went down: The shooter starts warming to the Islamic State and starts working for them, joining in its American activities and planning attacks of his own. Idiot Taliban supporting father either ignores him or encourages him. Now this attack has happened and the father is in the spotlight, so his tries to deflect as much blame from himself and from Islam as possible.