CAP 22 CAP 22 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment

[HeaLnDeaL]

Welcome to CAP 22 and let's finally get the discussion going! Here's the concept that we've voted in and that we'll discussing here and throughout the project:

Name: Last Act of Defiance

General Description: A Pokemon that is defined by its use of the move Parting Shot.

Justification: Parting Shot is another move that's pretty amazing on paper, but its true usage has yet to be fully explored because it's only available to Pangoro. Pangoro is not the most viable Pokemon OU and is nearly unusable in CAP due to its 4x weakness to Fairy. Moreover, when I've used it in RU (prior it to being banned) and UU, I found myself clicking an attacking move more often than not. With the optimal Parting Shot user in the CAP metagame, we may be able to tap into this move's potential and figure out how it is best utilized. Maybe Last Act of Defiance will be a fast Pokemon that aims to keep up offensive momentum. Maybe it'll use the move like it would use Memento to help a teammate use a boosting move. Maybe it'll be a slow, bulky pivot intended to discourage switching. Maybe it'll do something completely different.

This falls under both actualization and archetype in terms of being a concept. In terms of actualization, it will teach us how to use Parting Shot "properly." Clearly, no other Pokemon, not even Pangoro, comes close to it. Well, users of U-turn, Volt Switch, and Memento come somewhat close, but even then, we'll be able to see what makes Parting Shot different from (and possibly better than) them. In terms of archetype, Last Act of Defiance will give not just the CAP metagame, but also the whole game of Pokemon, a utility Pokemon that we've never seen before, as Parting Shot was not (and still isn't) one of Pangoro's most important assets. Because Parting Shot has so many potential uses, a utility Pokemon such as this can be the ultimate team player for offensive and defensive archetypes alike.

Questions To Be Answered:
- Whether it's pivoting, offensive momentum, Memento-esque support, or something else, what is the "ideal" way to use Parting Shot? Why?
- Considering Pangoro rarely finds the time to use the move, how much should a Pokemon be willing to sacrifice another offensive option for Parting Shot?
- What makes Parting Shot different or similar from Volt Switch, U-turn, and Memento?
- Pangoro is definitely not the ideal Parting Shot user, so what does the ideal user look like?
- What strategies, whether they be certain Pokemon, playstyles, or other factors, will rise to prominence to combat a Parting Shot user?

Guidelines:
1) Pay close attention to the Topic Leader during this discussion. His job is to keep us focused and to bring insight.
2) Do not poll jump. Poll jumping is a serious offense in these threads, and you can get infracted for it. Poll jumping is when you discuss something that should be discussed in the future, like specifying a CAP's stats or typing. You're allowed to hint at such things to conclude a point or to provide an example, but do not centralize your post on a poll jump. Poll jumping hurts the focus of early threads and can cause us to go off on a tangent. If you're not sure if you're poll jumping or not, err on the side of caution and don't post it.

Our topic leader, sparktrain, will start off this thread with his opening thoughts. Make absolutely certain that you use his post as a starting point for your discussion to follow. Continue to pay attention to his posts as he begins to guide the community through the chosen topic! It's very important that we are discussing with each other under the TL's guidance, and not talk *over* each other! Posts will be deleted accordingly!

 

[sparktrain]

Hey everyone. We've selected our concept, Last Act of Defiance, and now it's time for some analysis and discussion!

As per the concept's description, our goal is for CAP 22 to be defined by its use of the move Parting Shot. If you ask any experienced CAP metagame player, almost all of them would agree that there aren't any terribly prominent users of the move in the current metagame. The only Parting Shot users that are even worth mentioning are Pangoro itself (which suffers from general viability issues) and Necturna (which would usually rather run a different, more powerful/useful Sketch move).

So to kick off the concept assessment, I'd like for us to focus on analyzing the move Parting Shot itself, as well as its potential applications in the metagame. I've borrowed some of the questions from the concept submission for reference, and added a bit to one:

1. What makes Parting Shot different or similar from Volt Switch, U-turn, and Memento? Are there any noteworthy advantages or applications that Parting Shot has over these other moves?

2. Whether it's pivoting, offensive momentum, Memento-esque support, or something else, what is the "ideal" way to use Parting Shot? Why?

As always, be careful not to polljump in this stage of the process; we're just analyzing the concept at this point so we can get a better idea of where we're headed. I'll ask some more questions as the discussion progresses.

Let's go!

 

[Imanalt]

1. What makes Parting Shot different or similar from Volt Switch, U-turn, and Memento? Are there any noteworthy advantages or applications that Parting Shot has over these other moves?

This is really important. The big difference with parting shot is it doesnt do damage, which means it can't singlehandedly force a switch. You can't send a parting shot mon in on celebi for example and click parting shot, knowing they lose if they switch or if they stay in like you can with uturn. Parting shot is a move that is only useful if the opponent switches. This means the primary thing a pokemon attempting to use parting shot has to do is force switches without parting shot.

2. Whether it's pivoting, offensive momentum, Memento-esque support, or something else, what is the "ideal" way to use Parting Shot? Why?
This is a hard question, and i can see rationale for either fast or slow parting shot being ideal. Its very situational which is better. The overall big thing though is that you either want to go before anything to save your life to parting shot in the future if they stay in, or you want to go last to guarantee a safe switchin for whatever you're going to

 

[EpicUmbreon29]

1. The obvious similarity is that Parting Shot switches out the user at the expense of the foe. The important difference is how it harms the foe and what that means for the Pokemon coming in. Both moves provide team momentum and allow the player to see what the opponent will have in at the end of the turn before sending in another of their own Pokemon. Both can force switches. However, Volt Switch and U-Turn make it easier to directly get a KO, whereas Parting Shot makes it easier for the player to send in a Pokemon that can set up. Really, what sets Parting Shot apart is that it allows more Pokemon to be able to set up on whatever foe is out as a result of its lowered KO potential.

2. As I stated above, I feel like Parting Shot is especially helpful for setting up, and I do feel that that is an optimal specific use, considering it has half of the effect of Memento with none of the fainting. However, it is also good for just pivoting into something that can get a KO, either resulting in one Pokemon down for the opponent or a forced switch, either of which the player can capitalize on. What I'm getting at here is that Memento, regardless of the specific use, is best for forcing the opponent to react. It puts the user in a situation of power, and I think we should ultimately be focusing on how to best apply this control of momentum.

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

1. What makes Parting Shot different or similar from Volt Switch, U-turn, and Memento? Are there any noteworthy advantages or applications that Parting Shot has over these other moves?

While all of these are pivoting moves to some extent, they fill different roles from each other. Memento is a last-ditch move to cripple an incoming sweeper, so it is most useful when used by a Pokémon that is close to fainting already. More importantly, it means that Memento is not nearly as easy to spam as U-Turn and Volt Switch. U-Turn and Volt Switch serve more general purposes. The major difference between Parting Shot and the other moves is the list of suitable targets. Parting Shot is not a damaging move, so it cannot be used for chip damage like U-Turn and Volt Switch are, and it can be blocked by Taunt. However, this also means that Parting Shot cannot be punished by Iron Barbs and Rocky Helmet (U-Turn) or Ground-type Pokémon (Volt Switch). Parting Shot also has a few interesting interactions with certain abilities. Contrary would boost the opponent's Attack and Special Attack, but Serperior is the only remotely relevant Pokémon in the CAP metagame that has that ability. Clear Body blocks the stat changes from Parting Shot, but it does not prevent the switch. Magic Bounce reflects the stat drops to the user of Parting Shot, but the Magic Bounce user will be forced out instead, making Parting Shot a sort of phazing move. Soundproof is the only ability that blocks Parting Shot outright, but no relevant Pokémon in the CAP metagame has Soundproof.

2. Whether it's pivoting, offensive momentum, Memento-esque support, or something else, what is the "ideal" way to use Parting Shot? Why?

Before answering this question, one should examine the only Parting Shot user in the game to figure out why the move hasn't lived up to its potential. Looking at Pangoro, it's apparent that its stat distribution is the major reason why Parting Shot is difficult to use effectively. Base 58 Speed is too low to outrun much of anything, and base 95/78/71 defensive stats make it difficult to take more than one strong hit without being KO'd. Compounding Pangoro's longevity issues are its weaknesses to common types in the CAP metagame (Fairy, Fighting, Flying), a low number of resistances, and lack of reliable recovery. As such, it would seem that the best approaches are either to have a quick Parting Shot user that can switch out before it can take any damage or to have a slow Parting Shot user that can take hits for its teammates. I believe that either approach could work.

 

[Alchemister]

Earlier in this gen, I actually was using bulky support Parting Shot Necturna to allow the rest of my team, generally frailer setup sweepers or some setup support (Stealth Rock + stuff), come in and directly threaten opponent. From what I have seen, capability to force switches is generally appreciated on Parting Shooter, as is spreading status.
What differs Parting Shot from Memento in particular is that Parting Shot can be used multiple times in the battle. When it comes to VoltTurn, the main difference is that Parting Shot is not a standalone move. Where you can just casually U-Turn into (and out of) mostly everything (my typical use is "not to lose turn by switching" and sometimes slow-switching), you really really want to take advantage of Parting Shot by getting your setup going, covered by the lowered opponent offense.
What this as a combination lead into is that Parting Shot works best with teammates directly designed to make use of it, i.e. frail, but not too frail, setup sweepers. Multiple of them, so that you can choose based what you used Parting Shot on (think using like three different setup sweepers on a variation of HO team).
Another part of what makes Parting Shooter in such a situation viable is its ability to work as a switchin for several threats - again, actually allowing to get multiple safer setups throughout the battle.

No way I'm calling that the only way to use Parting Shot, rather one I found to be quite useful.

 

[Earth Traveler]

1. What makes Parting Shot different or similar from Volt Switch, U-turn, and Memento? Are there any noteworthy advantages or applications that Parting Shot has over these other moves?

2. Whether it's pivoting, offensive momentum, Memento-esque support, or something else, what is the "ideal" way to use Parting Shot? Why?

1. The advantage Parting Shot has over the two main pivot moves of VoltTurn is that nothing is immune to it (although using it on Serperior probably wouldn't be the best idea) and it lowers the opponent's offenses, allowing the next Pokemon to be brought in with less risk, maybe negating the need for a "slow pivot" style. The obvious advantage over Memento is that it doesn't KO the user, although the way I see it, Parting Shot and Memento have virtually the exact same function performed different ways. This, to me, makes its application over the VoltTurn moves basically pseudo-phazing the opponent.

2. E, all of the above. Honestly, it seems like there are a near limitless number of ways to use Parting Shot. I personally would probably try to use it to bring in a setup sweeper safely and try to put the opponent in a no-win situation.

I might edit in more later.

 

[Take Azelfie]

1. What makes Parting Shot different or similar from Volt Switch, U-turn, and Memento? Are there if any noteworthy advantages or applications that Parting Shot has over these other moves?

Well all provide offensive momentum. Memento is hard to utilize some times since you have to drop a Mon. And u-turn isn't extremely powerful while Volt Switch is blocked. Also Parting Shot straight out counters Mega Sableye (it also forces Diancie out but having -1 attack when the next Mon comes out wouldn't be optimal unless this Mon has Prankster or is the fastest thing alive) whiches something a lot people don't know about (for reference use Parting Shot Smeargle vs Xatu)

2. Whether it's pivoting, offensive momentum, Memento-esque support, or something else, what is the "ideal" way to use Parting Shot? Why?

Honestly it could do all of the above. Offensively it drags the opponent down and acts like U-turn, if it has a decent defensive typing and isn't paper thin the pivoting part is already solved, and momento support is naturally given. Abuse it or not you are forced to use it. I feel that if you aren't using it offensively you are dragging yourself since defensive Pokemon don't need to take hits better nor do they need constant momentum. A bulky attacker with Prankster could utilize it very well always getting Parting Shot off in case it is weakened but a slower PShot means set up sweepers don't have take a hit while still being a pivot.

 

[snake]

1. What makes Parting Shot different or similar from Volt Switch, U-turn, and Memento? Are there any noteworthy advantages or applications that Parting Shot has over these other moves?

Parting Shot is a momentum boost that cannot be punished in very few ways, unlike Volt Switch, U-turn, Memento, and Baton Pass. Volt Switch can be blocked by Ground-types and Electric-type immunity abilities; U-turn has to worry about Iron Barbs, Rough Skin, and Rocky Helmet; Memento straight up kills the user; Baton Pass has the potential to pass stat drops, Leech Seed, and confusion and there's also the Baton Pass Clause. Parting Shot, on the other hand, can only be blocked by Soundproof and be punished through Contrary. Only one Pokemon can actually punish Parting Shot effectively (Serperior), and that's really impressive.

EDIT: Bisharp / Milotic / whatever other Defiant and Competitive Pokemon can also take advantage of Parting Shot. However, Bisharp is really the only viable user of these abilities, so an effective list of two Pokemon isn't too shabby either.

2. Whether it's pivoting, offensive momentum, Memento-esque support, or something else, what is the "ideal" way to use Parting Shot? Why?

The ideal way to use Parting Shot would be to have a fast user. This way, the Pokemon coming in after CAP22 leaves can take a weakened hit; otherwise, we have to make CAP22 particularly bulky to take a full powered hit. By having a faster Pokemon, we maximize the usefulness of Parting Shot: giving CAP22's teammate a better switch in AND possibly forcing the opponent out, while if we make a slower Pokemon, we only get the effect of possibly forcing the opponent out. Having CAP22 being faster is better in basically every way.

 

[EpicUmbreon29]

1. What makes Parting Shot different or similar from Volt Switch, U-turn, and Memento? Are there any noteworthy advantages or applications that Parting Shot has over these other moves?

Parting Shot is a momentum boost that cannot be punished in very few ways, unlike Volt Switch, U-turn, Memento, and Baton Pass. Volt Switch can be blocked by Ground-types and Electric-type immunity abilities; U-turn has to worry about Iron Barbs, Rough Skin, and Rocky Helmet; Memento straight up kills the user; Baton Pass has the potential to pass stat drops, Leech Seed, and confusion and there's also the Baton Pass Clause. Parting Shot, on the other hand, can only be blocked by Soundproof and be punished through Contrary. Only one Pokemon can actually punish Parting Shot effectively (Serperior), and that's really impressive.

I do want to point out that Bisharp can also punish Parting Shot pretty hard thanks to Defiant, getting Attack up three stages.

 

[Alfalfa]

1. What makes Parting Shot different or similar from Volt Switch, U-turn, and Memento? Are there any noteworthy advantages or applications that Parting Shot has over these other moves?

The ability to reduce the offenses of an enemy without KOing yourself in return. Of course, it does not half enemy offenses like Memento does, but you can use it multiple times and can use it for constant opportunities for teammates to switch in. Unlike Memento, Parting Shot can be used for constant opportunities for a Pokemon to switch in. Parting Shot can be blocked by Taunt, and can backfire if the opponent has a Bisharp on his team, but these issues can be resolved with later CAP development.

2. Whether it's pivoting, offensive momentum, Memento-esque support, or something else, what is the "ideal" way to use Parting Shot? Why?
A combination of all of them, which is what gives Parting Shot so much potential. I have no intention of poll jumping, but how we tailor our CAP will likely affect what Pokemon will most commonly switch into this CAP, and will thus be affected by Parting Shot the most often. Ideally, Parting Shot should be used on offensive checks, for offensive Pokemon are the most likely to be affected by Parting Shot; for example, if Talonflame had Parting Shot, it would be using Parting Shot on Pokemon like Landorus-T or Heatran that try switching into it (this is only an example). Likewise, our CAP should be using Parting Shot on its own offensive checks as a means of providing the combination of pivoting, stat debuffs, and offensive momentum to the team.

 

[NumberCruncher]

1. What makes Parting Shot different or similar from Volt Switch, U-turn, and Memento? Are there any noteworthy advantages or applications that Parting Shot has over these other moves?

So the obvious difference between Volt Switch/U-Turn and Parting Shot is that Parting Shot spreads Debuffs and, like Baton Pass, deals no damage. The difference between Memento and Parting Shot is a bit trickier. Basically, it boils down to four points.

1) Memento debuffs by two stages as opposed to the one stage debuff of Parting Shot. Memento can turn a 2HKO into a 4HKO, whereas Parting Shot can't ever secure more than one extra attack. It can turn a 1HKO into a 2HKO, and it can turn a 2HKO into a 3HKO, but it will never do any better than that, except occasionally it can turn a 3HKO into a 5HKO, but sometimes that just turns into a 4HKO. That transitions well into difference two:

2) Memento never puts the switch-in in danger of taking damage. If you Memento, the switch-in comes in after the opponent has already fired off his move, whereas a mon slower than the Parting Shot user ends up smashing headlong into the mon you were trying to protect. Using the information from point 1, this turns the OHKO into a 2HKO, and then the mon takes a hit and is back in OHKO range. Likewise, the 2HKO is turned into a 3HKO, then back into a 2HKO after taking the hit. Even the 3HKO range only occasionally secures an extra hit.

3) Memento kills the mon using the move, whereas Parting Shot does not. Combine this with the other two points, and you come to a rather interesting conclusion. Suppose the Parting Shot user was trying to get a set-up sweeper ready to sweep like Memento usually does. Firstly, the mon has to be slower than the mon he's facing because otherwise you've net no advantage. But lets suppose you do manage the slow pivot to the set-up sweeper and successfully set up and sweep. What would actually be the benefit of keeping the Parting shot user alive. In this case, the Parting Shot is almost strictly worse than the Memento, as preserving the mon did absolutely nothing in the long run. That means that in the long run, Parting Shot users are actually bad at securing set-up sweeps. But if that's the case, then what does Parting Shot do? This brings us to point 4:

4) Because Memento kills the mon using the move, Memento isn't repeatable, whereas Parting Shot is. As it turns out, the other thing Memento does well is securing a revenge kill if the Memento user would otherwise be useless. The mon in front takes a huge stat debuff, gets trapped by the revenge killer, and then dies without much recourse, as its attack stats have dropped to nothing. In this case, Memento secures an advantageous 1-for-1 trade. However, the Parting Shot user can do the exact same thing, but not die in the process, meaning it can pull this trick again and again, possibly ever securing 2-for-1s or even 3-for-1s against teams not prepared for a heavy trapping team.

tl;dr Memento is better at supporting set-up sweepers than Parting Shot, and Parting Shot is better at supporting revenge killers and trapper than Memento.

2. Whether it's pivoting, offensive momentum, Memento-esque support, or something else, what is the "ideal" way to use Parting Shot? Why?

So Parting Shot wants to be used as a pivot to trappers. It does somewhat support set-up sweep teams, but less in a "CAP Parting Shots into Sweeper A and Sweeper A sets up and wins", and more "The opponent has answers B and C to Sweeper A, so CAP Parting Shots into Trapper D against B and Trapper E against C, and now Sweeper A has no answers, so it wins."

 

[jas61292]

Whie a lot of people are focusing on the positive things Parting Shot does in comparison to U-Turn and Volt Switch, I think Imanalt pointed out the most important difference here, which is that it cannot really create a win-win the same way that those two moves can. Like he said, against a Celebi, for example U-Turn (especially a fast one) is a win-win because either you KO their Celebi, or they switch, you get chip damage, and you get a switch advantage. Volt Switch isn't as easy as U-Turn since more things are immune to electric, but it still allows for such a situation to happen.

Parting Shot, however, cannot do this in the same way. No pokemon is going to be scared out by Parting Shot itself. Since a switch advantage is what makes pivoting moves so good, in order for Parting Shot to really function on the same level as U-Turn and Volt Switch, the Pokemon it is on absolutely must be able to force other Pokemon out reliably. At the same time though, you need to make sure the Pokemon who would want to switch into you are hampered by parting shot. If, for example, Chansey walled you, well... pivoting out as it came in is nice, but in such an instance parting shot is just being used as a worse U-Turn/Volt Switch, since Chansey doesn't care about the stat drops, and you get no chip damage.

Basically, I think the best way to sum it up is to say that Parting Shot is far more niche than U-Turn/Volt Switch, and it is not an all purpose great pivoting move like they are. You really need to tailor the Pokemon to make sure it actually gets something good when it uses it.

Now, as far as the best way to use the move, well, its a pivoting move, like it or not, and so it will be used for pivoting. I think it can be used for the other things mentioned in the question, and it might need to be to make up for the fact that Parting Shot is a more limited pivoting move. But ultimately, if you are not a good pivot, I don't think you will see Parting Shot getting any use.

 

[Billy the Uncle]

1. What makes Parting Shot different or similar from Volt Switch, U-turn, and Memento? Are there any noteworthy advantages or applications that Parting Shot has over these other moves?

The difference between U-turn/Volt Switch and Parting shot boils down to one thing: the formers deal damage and the latter lowers the target's offenses. This difference has quite a few implications, though. While the extra damage can be useful, pivoting moves often do little more than chip damage. This is especially true for U-turn, a 70 base power move of a bad offensive type, that is often un-STABbed and used more for momentum than anything else, unless your name is Scizor or something. Volt Switch, on the other hand, can be blocked by the common Ground-types and it too struggles to do much damage to enemies not weak to Electric.

To be truly effective, U-turn and Volt Switch need to scare the opponent out, or at least the bearer of the moves need to. Sure, U-turning in the face of Celebi is a win/win situation: the little onion is murdered by it. However, this is not always the case. Think of a Heatran vs. Landorus-T situation. Tran should run away screaming like a little girl scared of Earthquake, and the Lando used should capitalize on it and U-turn out for momentum. But what if the Heatran user gets ballsy and leaves it in? Tran takes minimal damage and now you have to switch something else into it.

Parting Shot (assuming Lando could learn it, which of course it can't) on the other hand, would at the very least lower Heatran's offenses and make it easier for the next teammate to get in safely and maybe set up. Not as rewarding as pivoting out of the opponent's switch-in AND lower its offenses, but still better than doing like 4% to Heatrain with U-turn.

Also, we shouldn't forget that KO-ing an enemy with a pivot move actually gives momentum to the opponent. Sure, he had to lose a Pokémon, but at least he got the switch advantage. With Parting Shot, this simply can't happen. Not that big of a deal, but it's still something worth of a mention I guess.

About Memento, it is obvious that Parting Shot doesn't kill your Pokémon, which is good. However, saccing a Poké gives you a completely free switch, which Parting Shot can't if the user is faster that the opponent. It also doesn't soften the foe as much as Memento does. Memento is more of a single big opportunity to safely set up a sweeper. Parting Shot is a move that can be used repeatedly but with a much less powerful effect.

2. Whether it's pivoting, offensive momentum, Memento-esque support, or something else, what is the "ideal" way to use Parting Shot? Why?

Parting Shot can do all of those. It is a single move and its effects are set in stone. You can use a shovel to dig the ground during summer, but this doesn't prevent you from plowing snow with it when winter comes. Yet it's always the same shovel.

What Parting Shot will do for us largely depends on the user we're gonna make for it. An offensive user will take advantage of the switches it forces to play 50/50 games and keep momentum on your side. A defensive user can make it easier for a teammate to absorb attacks. A fast user can weaken an opposing setupper before it becomes too dangerous, while a slow, bulky one gives gorgeous free switches to teammates against a weakened opponent.

That said, Parting Shot is still Parting Shot. The type, stats, and movepool of the user will dictate the most common use we'll make for it. I don't think there is an "ideal" way to use the move: just the ideal use CAP22 can make of it.

 

[Korski]

Oh fun a new CAP.

Parting Shot is a very worthwhile concept that's been floating around this forum for a while. It's a theoretically cool move that is unfortunately imprisoned in Pangoro's movepool (Sketch notwithstanding), which gives us a lot of freedom to isolate and optimize its potential on a custom-made mon.

So this Concept Assessment is ultimately about putting into words our expectations for this potential (what I presume the concept / OP questions are designed to achieve). So far, I think NumberCruncher and jas have hit the nail on the head.

As NumberCruncher (thoroughly) pointed out, Parting Shot is not best-suited to initiate a teammate's setup; that honor belongs to Memento or Healing Wish. It has the advantage of multiple uses, but that advantage is coupled with exposure to the many variables and downsides that all pivoting moves share and an additional risk of not being powerful enough to form a strategy around.

Which leads into one of jas's points: Parting Shot is not good against stall, not one bit. If Parting Shot is all this Pokemon does, or if stallmons end up becoming reliable switch-ins, then the CAP will end up being a liability in these matchups. Here, a U-turner would be much more preferable while remaining generically useful against other playstyles, so the CAP's matchup vs. stall is going to have a huge impact on the success of this concept.

For now, I like the idea of putting this move on a CAP that is already capable of offensive pressure, likely as a member of a bulky, offensive pivoting core (I'm thinking along the lines of Tornadus-T and Mega Scizor and things like that). We should constantly remind ourselves that the actual, practical effect of this move is not strong enough to be the foundation of a team's strategy or endgame sweep but is still in league with U-turn and Volt Switch as far as teamwork and momentum are concerned.

 

[Drapionswing]

1. What makes Parting Shot different or similar from Volt Switch, U-turn, and Memento? Are there any noteworthy advantages or applications that Parting Shot has over these other moves?

Well what makes Parting Shot different from Volt Switch and U-turn is the obvious fact that it doesn't do damage. That is a big factor to consider as the threat of super effective damage is no longer there, so parting shot itself can't scare the opponent to switch whereas the others do. The thing which ties these moves together is the fact that it makes you switch giving you a switching advantage, and in Parting Shots case weaken the pokemon's offensives potentially making the next pokemon you send out switch in to an attack easier rather than it having that straight forward "switch advantage", that being it's potential noteworthy advantage; being able to support your team more so than give you momentum. As well as this volt switch is stopped by a ground type completely, and u-turn is punished by rough skin, rocky helmet and iron barbs. The only punishing factor for Parting Shot is the threat of Bisharp getting to +3 from Defiant.

2. Whether it's pivoting, offensive momentum, Memento-esque support, or something else, what is the "ideal" way to use Parting Shot? Why?

Well due to the fact that Parting Shot doesn't have the threat of damage, to gain offensive momentum a way to do that would have to make the pokemon able to force a switch. In being able to force a switch you're able to parting shot on said, predicted, switch and switch out to your appropriate answer putting your opponent in an awkward situation and making them switch after but not necessarily due to the threat of another attack to the threat of "not being able to do enough damage" thus offensively supporting your teammate allowing them an opportunity to defog/rapid spin, lay hazards, setup etc. However a quite defensive way to use pivoting has come up recently in RU with a U-Turn + Yawn set which is rather straight forward, you yawn and the opponent either prevents sleep or let's something sleep and then you u-turn to see what they decide to do. Something potentially like this for this Parting Shot pokemon could allow for an ideal defensive pivot allowing you to support your team defensively by potentially hindering one of your opponents pokemon, more than the already gained stat drops from Parting Shot.

 

[Ignus]

I've always seen Parting Shot as a move that should actually be treated differently than U-turn or volt switch, as it lacks the true 'best case scenario' that those moves have. You can't kill anything with it, so you can't really force an unfavorable switch like you can with those moves.

Instead, using it as a sort of panic button is where it excels - Imagine something like Gengar or Weavile having it. Instead of using it as a win-win or using it to predict switches, it can be used to soften the blows the opponent can dish out against your team as chip damage.

Weavile Example

(Example Set: Parting Shot)
Weavile @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Parting Shot


We start in a situation where Weavile is against something that can kill it, but is slower than it, Like a Specs Keldeo.
We know the opponent will kill us if we try to fight it, so we're forced to switch out.
Using Parting Shot makes it easier for our Azumarill to absorb the incoming blow.

Running the same set with U-turn would be less effective, as it would deal less damage to Keldeo than would be absorbed from the stat reduction of Parting Shot

Placing a faster Parting Shot user with bulkier glue-mons will artificially increase the bulkiness of your team, allowing for Semi-stall and Fat Balance/Offensive teams more switch-ins over the course of the game. This is a distinct advantage and difference over using UT or VS.

Basically, Parting Shot is better than Volt Switch or U-Turn when:

• UT/VS won't deal much damage, either because the move isn't a STAB or because it's resisted by the opponent.
• it is used by a user that is faster than the opponent, and the thing you switch in appreciates the damage reduction.

Other than those situations, Parting Shot functions exactly the same or worse than U-Turn or Volt Switch.

 

[Alchemister]

However a quite defensive way to use pivoting has come up recently in RU with a U-Turn + Yawn set which is rather straight forward, you yawn and the opponent either prevents sleep or let's something sleep and then you u-turn to see what they decide to do. Something potentially like this for this Parting Shot pokemon could allow for an ideal defensive pivot allowing you to support your team defensively by potentially hindering one of your opponents pokemon, more than the already gained stat drops from Parting Shot.

I just wanted to address this little quote with a similar thing. In case of bulkier Parting Shooter, Wish/Parting Shot becomes again useful in similar way U-Turn does, but with several advantages (not only stat drop, but also that Parting Shot is IIRC unstoppable by Protect (am I right?). Think Wish-Turn Jirachi, on some teams, having Parting Shot instead of the U-Turn would make this way of switch a quite reliable way to put your switchin, possibly even damaged, into as safe position as basically nothing but suicide moves (particularly Healing Wish and possibly Memento) can achieve.

 

[Deck Knight]

1. What makes Parting Shot different or similar from Volt Switch, U-turn, and Memento? Are there any noteworthy advantages or applications that Parting Shot has over these other moves?

Parting Shot can't KO opponents, which means the recipient has to be able to take advantage of the -1/-1 inflicted on the opponent in every scenario. Parting Shot's biggest advantage over all others is that it enhances defensive momentum. If you use Parting Shot to get in one of your bulky supporting Pokemon, there is a chance the opponent will stay it and try to chip away at them while they set up, allowing the Parting Shot user to switch back in and still benefit from their own setup. U-turn and Volt Switch purely do damage, and obviously your mon isn't coming back after it uses Memento.

2. Whether it's pivoting, offensive momentum, Memento-esque support, or something else, what is the "ideal" way to use Parting Shot? Why?

After considering it for a bit, it's my view that Faster Parting Shot (FPS) is vastly superior to Slower Parting Shot (SPS). Here's my case:

Arguments regarding FPS:
FPS ALWAYS reduces incoming damage from an attack by 33%. No matter which Pokemon is switched in, they will take less damage because you moved faster than the opponent's attack.
FPS has applications as an anti-sweep option because it acts like an intimidate on both attacking stats for slowing down sweeps each time you pivot through.
FPS can be used in a last Pokemon scenario to outlast the active opponent by pushing their moves out of a relevant KO range.
Barring Prankster Taunt, FPS cannot be rendered ineffective by otherwise common means.
Generally if you are using FPS, it's because you can't directly threaten what is in front of you and FPS is a superior option to vanilla switching.
FPS is indistinguishable from SPS on a turn where an opponent uses an attack with more move priority than Parting Shot.

Arguments regarding SPS:
SPS requires you to take a fully damaging hit before any recipient can capitalize. If you faint, your intended recipient receives no benefit.
SPS is indistinguishable from FPS on a turn where the opponent switches.
SPS has a a situational advantage over FPS on turns when an opponent uses U-turn, Volt Switch, Baton Pass, or Parting Shot by allowing you to select your Pokemon against an opponent's weakened selection.
SPS's primary advantage over FPS is allowing a sweeper to come in without receiving any prior damage, however as pointed out above this benefit is not received if your Pokemon faints before using SPS, or is Taunted.

Just to be clear, SPS's primary and situational advantages over FPS are relevant, but I don't think they outweigh the overall benefits FPS brings. The advantages U-turn and Volt Switch have over Parting Shot are minimized when using FPS, whereas those same advantages become more apparent when using SPS.

 

[Scoopapa]

Back from the dead because CAP is fun! Or maybe I'm just walking amongst the living...

1. What makes Parting Shot different or similar from Volt Switch, U-turn, and Memento? Are there any noteworthy advantages or applications that Parting Shot has over these other moves?

The big disadvantage that has been pointed out a lot here is the fact that you never have a situation where Parting Shot is going to have STAB or a super-effective hit and thus do threatening amounts of damage to a pokemon that stays in. Comparing stat drops to the potential for massive damage makes Parting Shot look like a crappy version of U-turn or Volt Switch for most pokemon with access to those moves. There are also some pokemon who make advantageous use of U-turn or Volt Switch without doing much damage (because they attack on the other side of the Physical/Special split or are bulky supporters) as well as pokemon that make viable use of Baton Pass without passing any boosts. These pokemon isolate the pivoting aspect of U-turn/Volt Switch, so Parting Shot might do more for these pokemon than the current move they use. This doesn't mean they would use it to it's fullest potential, but I would say these pokemon are a good place to look for inspiration.

The advantages of Parting Shot's stat drops are that it can secure a safe switch that otherwise wouldn't be safe (if you go first and the opponent stays in) and that it can force a switch in a matchup that would otherwise favor the opponent (if you go last or the opponent switches). Parting Shot doesn't limit the enemy's safe switch-ins nearly as much as a strong U-turn, but it expands your own safe switch-ins more. Similarly, it doesn't gain as much momentum as a strong U-turn but it does limit the offensive pressure your opponent is putting on you. Because it doesn't deal any chip damage, there is a greater emphasis on making your next turn count.

2. Whether it's pivoting, offensive momentum, Memento-esque support, or something else, what is the "ideal" way to use Parting Shot? Why?

Well as many people have pointed out the ideal way to use a pivot in general is to force a switch and therby gain a switch advantage. Gaining a switch advantage is good and many existing pokemon have this as their claim to fame. Parting Mon should have this in its repertiore. There is more than one way to do this; offensive pressure is an obvious way, but support moves that force switches could synergize better with the fact that Parting Shot doesn't directly benefit from Atk or SpA EV's.

Looking at Parting Shot as opposed to other pivoting moves, however, the ideal way to use it is a way in which the attack drops matter. For this reason, I'm thinking that moving first will be an important aspect of utilizing Parting Shot to it's fullest potential; the fewer attacks you are taking at full power the more you are utilizing Parting Shot's unique advantages. Being able to soften the blow for a switch-in and not take any damage on the mon that switched out is something that other types of pivots can't really do. Speed, Prankster, and Trick Room could all potentially allow Parting Mon to go first. An example of how this could work would be a fast attacker that can pivot into friendly wallbreakers who will in turn help it clean up later in the game. Such a pokemon would do about as well as a U-turn mon at capitalizing on forced switches, but it would have the extra advantage of helping it's allies come into battle when faced with something that forces it out. It would literally be useful for taking a Parting Shot when it's time to switch.

 

[Absolclaw]

Parting Shot is more helpful dealing with a more offensive Pokemon. If you are against a Pokemon with good attacking stats and vastly different potential move sets, Parting Shot will allow you to work out that move set with less risk of losing a Pokemon, whereas Volt Switch and U-turn will allow you to defeat it faster through damage and bringing in a more appropriate Pokemon to deal with it. I do not see Parting Shot being of as much use against a more defensive/supportive Pokemon who wouldn't be attacking or needing to switch anyway.

Stat drops will be negated when the enemy switches, but damage tends to stick. If the opponent can foresee a Parting Shot inbound, they can swap out into a Pokemon they know will not be heavily impacted by the move. If it is an incoming Volt Switch/U-turn, then the opponent is forced to take damage either way. In a way, Parting Shot is more of a move for pestering the opponent, while Volt Switch and U-turn are more for maintaining momentum and keeping up the offensive pressure.

Memento is more of a last ditch move you would use when you cannot see the Pokemon as having any further use in battle. Using it early in a match would not only guarantee a free kill for the other player, but its advantage would once again be mired by the fact the opponent will just switch out to negate the stat drops, and there are better ways to force a switch without sacrificing your own Pokemon. In comparison, Parting Shot is not particularly limited to any point in the battle, thanks to the ability to use it over and over again.

In essence, due to not dealing damage like Volt Switch and U-turn, as well as being reusable unlike Memento, I see Parting Shot as more of a disrupting tactic then maintaining offensive momentum like the other moves.

Well, I tried.

 

[Imanalt]

i think there are a lot of good points in this post so everyone read it, and then read why its still wrong thx

2. Whether it's pivoting, offensive momentum, Memento-esque support, or something else, what is the "ideal" way to use Parting Shot? Why?

After considering it for a bit, it's my view that Faster Parting Shot (FPS) is vastly superior to Slower Parting Shot (SPS). Here's my case:

Arguments regarding FPS:
FPS ALWAYS reduces incoming damage from an attack by 33%. No matter which Pokemon is switched in, they will take less damage because you moved faster than the opponent's attack.
FPS has applications as an anti-sweep option because it acts like an intimidate on both attacking stats for slowing down sweeps each time you pivot through.
FPS can be used in a last Pokemon scenario to outlast the active opponent by pushing their moves out of a relevant KO range.
Barring Prankster Taunt, FPS cannot be rendered ineffective by otherwise common means.
Generally if you are using FPS, it's because you can't directly threaten what is in front of you and FPS is a superior option to vanilla switching.
FPS is indistinguishable from SPS on a turn where an opponent uses an attack with more move priority than Parting Shot.

Arguments regarding SPS:
SPS requires you to take a fully damaging hit before any recipient can capitalize. If you faint, your intended recipient receives no benefit.
SPS is indistinguishable from FPS on a turn where the opponent switches.
SPS has a a situational advantage over FPS on turns when an opponent uses U-turn, Volt Switch, Baton Pass, or Parting Shot by allowing you to select your Pokemon against an opponent's weakened selection.
SPS's primary advantage over FPS is allowing a sweeper to come in without receiving any prior damage, however as pointed out above this benefit is not received if your Pokemon faints before using SPS, or is Taunted.

Just to be clear, SPS's primary and situational advantages over FPS are relevant, but I don't think they outweigh the overall benefits FPS brings. The advantages U-turn and Volt Switch have over Parting Shot are minimized when using FPS, whereas those same advantages become more apparent when using SPS.

I agree with all of this, and all of it is great. The problem is there is one big thing you are missing. SPS allows for way more pokemon to switch in. Parting shot to me inherently is a massively better move when used on very aggressive teams who will use it to manufacture a "free" turn to set up in. These set up pokemon or even other relatively frail offensive pokemon simply don't have the bulk to take hits, even if they're -1 hits. The opponent being at -1 still won't reduce damage sufficiently for my [insert random set up sweeper here] to be able to take two hits and sweep most of the time, especially since the opponent will be aware of the fact that they need to be cautious about you creating set up opportunities and can play around that. The more pressure placed on the opponent to be able to control what you do, the better. Slow parting shot is valuable in that on offense you can have your one pokemon with bulk, allowing you to go into a wider variety of mons, especially since you no longer need to predict the incoming move. This is also the reason that screens azelf would run explosion over u-turn.

 

[Deck Knight]

i think there are a lot of good points in this post so everyone read it, and then read why its still wrong thx


I agree with all of this, and all of it is great. The problem is there is one big thing you are missing. SPS allows for way more pokemon to switch in. Parting shot to me inherently is a massively better move when used on very aggressive teams who will use it to manufacture a "free" turn to set up in. These set up pokemon or even other relatively frail offensive pokemon simply don't have the bulk to take hits, even if they're -1 hits. The opponent being at -1 still won't reduce damage sufficiently for my [insert random set up sweeper here] to be able to take two hits and sweep most of the time, especially since the opponent will be aware of the fact that they need to be cautious about you creating set up opportunities and can play around that. The more pressure placed on the opponent to be able to control what you do, the better. Slow parting shot is valuable in that on offense you can have your one pokemon with bulk, allowing you to go into a wider variety of mons, especially since you no longer need to predict the incoming move. This is also the reason that screens azelf would run explosion over u-turn.

This is what I imagine the concept assessment was eventually going to pivot to (no pun intended), which is really the application of parting shot to realistic battle scenarios.

Before I continue I want to bring up one argument Imanalt also could have brought up, which is that the dichotomy between FPS and SPS is somewhat false. We could for example turn an SPS user into an FPS user by utilizing Trick Room, and this would be perfectly viable because Trick Room sweepers are inherently bulkier Pokemon who take most -1 hits down from 3HKOs to 5HKOs, and would love the extra breathing room to set up a second boost before TR runs out. Additionally since we have to talk about realistic Speed Tiers, you aren't going to be FPS against every relevant metagame threat, especially with so many speed boosting ones like DD/QD Aurumoth, Shell Smash Necturna, and more traditional opponents like DD ZardX.

So the question becomes which battle scenarios are the most realistic. We already sort of have an SPS user in Necturna, which is fairly bulky and fairly slow, but Parting Shot is competing against every other existing move in the game for that Sketch slot so it isn't a viable set. Pangoro's problem is that it's both slow and (relative to CAP threats) frail.

The key question to me is, what would prompt our CAP to use Parting Shot over one of its attacks. I think it would be very, very bad if the reason was that our CAP was not offensively threatening and Parting Shot was its default option as a more support-oriented Pokemon. Arguably one of the strongest attributes of Parting Shot is what to can do to start a chain reaction on a predicted switch. If your opponent's sweepers are too afraid to switch in fearing a damaging attack, they'll opt for safer options, and what move makes life hell for -1 uninvested attackers? Substitute. Now, you can't just throw Substitute on whatever sweeper you want (access isn't the issue, set effectiveness is), but if you knew your sweeper's Sub could tank a -1 Scald and you could freely physical boost behind it, your opponent very quickly has to switch a second time. But I've digressed.

Back to the main point, Parting Shot becomes stronger and more relevant that U-turn or Volt Switch for their users when it's applying a different kind of pressure than CAP's other attacks. So if CAP can force a switch and let an alternative offensive threat start a sweep, it will have performed its job. I'm of the mind CAP will force more switches by doing so offensively rather than becoming a progressively more effective wall by repeatedly pivoting in and out. Parting Shot does the most work when CAP is adding its own offensive pressure to an onslaught rather than paving the way for other Pokemon. In other words, we need to build a Pokemon around Parting Shot that does not allow the opponent to simply switch in the Pokemon that cares about -1/-1 the least and then switch it back out. This can be done with either speedy offense or bulky offense, but it can't be done through passivity.

 

[Ignus]

I agree with all of this, and all of it is great. The problem is there is one big thing you are missing. SPS allows for way more pokemon to switch in. Parting shot to me inherently is a massively better move when used on very aggressive teams who will use it to manufacture a "free" turn to set up in. These set up pokemon or even other relatively frail offensive pokemon simply don't have the bulk to take hits, even if they're -1 hits. The opponent being at -1 still won't reduce damage sufficiently for my [insert random set up sweeper here] to be able to take two hits and sweep most of the time, especially since the opponent will be aware of the fact that they need to be cautious about you creating set up opportunities and can play around that. The more pressure placed on the opponent to be able to control what you do, the better. Slow parting shot is valuable in that on offense you can have your one pokemon with bulk, allowing you to go into a wider variety of mons, especially since you no longer need to predict the incoming move. This is also the reason that screens azelf would run explosion over u-turn.

While I agree that slower parting shot sets will generally be better for transitioning to a setup sweeper, I think you might be overestimating it's effectiveness. Setup Sweepers will generally still be able to set up on the same targets regardless of if they have their damage reduced or not. Cawmodore, for example, will still be unable to set up on fire types. Aurumoth will still be able to set up on... everything.

What's more likely is that CAP22 will have something switch into it that straight up counters it - which, inevitably, we'll have to switch away from as well. The number of chances where we'll be able straight up absorb an opponents move without it severely crippling or killing CAP are generally low.
It isn't designing CAP so that the opponent can control what we can do - it's just acknowledging the fact that a good opponent will have an answer to CAP, and that Parting Shot's biggest use is preserving momentum even if the opponent switches in that counter.

Running a faster Parting Shot gives us two options to handle a situation where a counter is coming: Using it the turn the counter switches in to preserve offensive momentum, or using it after the counter has switched in, and taking the extra turn to set up rocks, knock off the opponents item, or just chip down its health - and using parting shot the following turn to 'lighten the load' for your answer to the opponent. Being slower than the opponent utterly removes that second option in a situation where we'll be KOed.
On top of this, using the first option allows for us to switch into a setup sweeper just as easily as a slower parting shot, so I don't see any particular reason why having a slower parting shot would be particularly more effective than having a faster one.

 

[reachzero]

I think this assessment is trying to compare the proverbial apples to oranges in asking us to compare Parting Shot to U-turn, Volt Switch and Memento. U-turn and Volt Switch are actual attacks, and are used as such only by stuff that actual benefit from either STAB or coverage. Most of the time having either move without offensive investment is a bad move. Parting Shot used this way would be a much worse version. Any offensive Pokemon would never run it, since an extra coverage move is far more valuable. To give you an idea of what I mean, the most similar move to Parting Shot on an offensive Pokemon is a"dry" Baton Pass, one these passed no boosts. That is sometimes useful because it involves less prediction that a double switch and allows you to use trappers against the Pokemon's counters; it is usually more beneficial, however, simply to have an extra coverage move. Most users of dry Baton Passing have been offensive threats with very shallow movepools, like Jolteon.

Unfortunately, a mechanic in which Parting Shot more closely resembles U-turn than Baton Pass is its interaction with Pursuit. If CAP22 is faster than the Pursuit user, it will get hit with a full strength Pursuit on the way out. If it is slower, it would only take the base 40 damage. That matters, especially when discussing speed in relationship to role.

Parting Shot is a weak move on an offensive Pokemon. Stratagem or Latios would never use Parting Shot even if they learned it, coverage is too important. Parting Shot is fundamentally a support move, and in order to be actually worth using it needs to set something up that is more valuable than the free turn that is ceded on the turn it is used. Parting Shot has a weaker effect than Memento, but it has the obvious benefit that the Pokemon doesn't die using it, so you get the possibility of using it more than once, particularly if CAP22 is a dedicated support Pokemon. There are several team archetypes in which this would work: Rain, Trick Room, Heavy Offense. Most strikingly, however, even a one-stage drop allows a Belly Drum user like Cawmodore or Azumarill to set up more safely, and in a support role CAP22 could perhaps even make this work more than once in ways that Memento does not allow (Wish? Healing Wish?). For Parting Shot to be effectively used, I believe CAP22 should be a dedicated support Pokemon. A good model to follow would be something like Latias or Ferrothorn which have clear opportunities to switch in, clear staying power, and just enough offensive firepower to not be a liability like Uxie, Forretress, etc.

This has serious implications for the argument of fast versus slow Parting Shot. Since Parting Shot is fundamentally designed to benefit the Pokemon that will be switched in, the maximum benefit is to subject CAP22 to take a Knock Off, Toxic, Will-o-Wisp, Trick etc rather than allowing the incoming Cawmodore, Aurumoth, etc to take it. Moreover, in the case of a setup Pokemon like these, a slow Parting Shot means surviving one -1 attack as it sets up (CAP22 having taken a full strength attack last turn). By comparison, a fast Parting Shot means the setup Pokemon must survive two -1 attacks, as well being exposed to the possibility of status or secondary effects (Scald...) twice. This strongly favors a comparatively slow Parting Shot from a comparatively bulky CAP22.

tl;dr Parting Shot is less valuable than a coverage attack for an offensive Pokemon and is maximized as support for a one-turn setup sweeper like Cawmodore or Aurumoth.