CAP 22 CAP 22 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment

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I don't understand why some people are supporting a slow Parting Shot user. The main point of it is to get in a Pokemon easier (Note: not be as effective as Memento, but to soften the hit a little). If we made a slower user, there's really no reason not to just give CAP22 U-turn or Volt Switch.
 
snake_rattler said:
I don't understand why some people are supporting a slow Parting Shot user. The main point of it is to get in a Pokemon easier (Note: not be as effective as Memento, but to soften the hit a little). If we made a slower user, there's really no reason not to just give CAP22 U-turn or Volt Switch.
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I think the main reasoning behind SPS is that it doesn't necessarily soften the incoming hit, but allows the next Pokemon to come in without taking damage at all, with either the next hit it will have to take being softened or the opponent being forced to switch, both of which provide more opportunities to set up or deal damage than having to take damage while being sent in.
 
Ignus said:
While I agree that slower parting shot sets will generally be better for transitioning to a setup sweeper, I think you might be overestimating it's effectiveness. Setup Sweepers will generally still be able to set up on the same targets regardless of if they have their damage reduced or not. Cawmodore, for example, will still be unable to set up on fire types. Aurumoth will still be able to set up on... everything.

What's more likely is that CAP22 will have something switch into it that straight up counters it - which, inevitably, we'll have to switch away from as well. The number of chances where we'll be able straight up absorb an opponents move without it severely crippling or killing CAP are generally low.
It isn't designing CAP so that the opponent can control what we can do - it's just acknowledging the fact that a good opponent will have an answer to CAP, and that Parting Shot's biggest use is preserving momentum even if the opponent switches in that counter.

Running a faster Parting Shot gives us two options to handle a situation where a counter is coming: Using it the turn the counter switches in to preserve offensive momentum, or using it after the counter has switched in, and taking the extra turn to set up rocks, knock off the opponents item, or just chip down its health - and using parting shot the following turn to 'lighten the load' for your answer to the opponent. Being slower than the opponent utterly removes that second option in a situation where we'll be KOed.
On top of this, using the first option allows for us to switch into a setup sweeper just as easily as a slower parting shot, so I don't see any particular reason why having a slower parting shot would be particularly more effective than having a faster one.
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The important thing about supporting a setup is that you still get to choose what you bring in after the Parting Shot--if a Fire type comes in, I'm not going to bring in my Cawmodore, I'll bring in a Water or Dragon to set up. The whole point of building a Pokemon is that the counters that come in will be predictable, and that the Pokemon CAP22 will come in on will be predictable. The reason the -1 helps is because the counter is probably going to have to use non-STAB coverage moves to hit the Pokemon you bring in if it wants to stay, and -1 coverage moves are pretty weak. This is illustrative of the big difference between Parting Shot and Memento: with Memento you only get one chance, so you have to make it work. With Parting Shot, I can set up my Garchomp against your Fire now, and I might still have a chance to go to Cawmodore with Parting Shot again later, I don't need to force matchups that don't work.

The "lightening the load" concept is a terrible way to use Parting Shot. If you are using Parting Shot as essentially a better way of switching out of a bad situation than normal switching, your better option would be to run another attack for the sake of coverage, softening the counter to prevent the bad situation to begin with. You are giving up a free turn in which you did no damage and took a (-1) attack (and probably took entry hazard damage), which is better than pure switching but definitely not enough to compensate for the opportunity cost of a moveslot that could have been used for Substitute, Toxic, etc.

I do agree that if the opponent switches rather than staying in, Parting Shot is equally good whether CAP22 is fast or slow. At any rate, we don't really need to know exactly how fast CAP22 should be now; I view this more of an issue of role, where the point is that CAP22 should support other Pokemon rather than using Parting Shot as a weak solution to bad situations.
 
I wasn't going to make a post here but then I said "screw it ima make a post anyways >:["

Ok so I personally thought that this concept was "flawed" and it still is but I realised that what we need to do is make this concept fly and somehow make people use the move more than 80-90% of the time and not what I fear it to be which is 25-30% of the time. After having a few chats on PS I can see why this concept also has a lot of very good things about it.

Numba 1. What makes Parting Shot different or similar from Volt Switch, U-turn, and Memento? Are there any noteworthy advantages or applications that Parting Shot has over these other moves?

Much to my surprise there are actually quite a few advantages. This move can make switching out a safer thing to do as it lowers the opposing mons attack and special attack basically ending a sweepers life unless its Serperior or maybe Bisharp but more on that later. Another thing that separates it from VoltTurn is the fact that it does 0 damage when I first thought about it that sounded like a terrible thing and to me it still is let me explain my reasoning behind this. Stall teams are at an all time high with mons like Clefable in the S class that's a scary thing to think about especially with CAP 22 trying to use Parting Shot effectively since Parting Shot only does 0 damage and since lowering a stallmons attack and special attack is like throwing a pebble at a battleship so we really need to think of a way to help with this. Do I really need to explain the advantages of Parting Shot over friggin Memento do I really? Oh ok what a bother >:| Parting Shot is basically GameFreak trying to make a more practical version of Memento and putting it on a Pokemon that is 4x weak to fairy a type they just introduced I mean come on GameFreak how bad can you get. Sorry about the the rant but as I said Parting shot is a more practical Memento it may not lower the opponents stats as much but at least you're not killing your mon and can use the move more than once which is quite nifty.

Numba 2. Whether it's pivoting, offensive momentum, Memento-esque support, or something else, what is the "ideal" way to use Parting Shot? Why?

I personally think that this CAP 22 should be go for something like pivomentum I feel as if this mon would need good speed like Deck Knight has said to help it destroy sweepers.

Notes, Ideas and Other stuff

1) I personally think that a fast parting shot user would be more beneficial that a slow one I can see why people would want a slow ParSho user as a FPS has more benifits.

2) I can't wait for someone to use Parting Shot on a mon with Magic Bounce craziness just craziness!!!

3) Although I want this mon to be different but if I had to chose a pokemon that CAP 22 should be like then I would say it should be a faster Sabeleye. But I don't know what do you guys think?

I know I only have 3 things here but I iz lazy :P
 
1. What makes Parting Shot different or similar from Volt Switch, U-turn, and Memento? Are there any noteworthy advantages or applications that Parting Shot has over these other moves?

First of all, Parting Shot has to be handled differently from VoltTurn, as you can punish those two moves with Electric Immunity and Iron Barbs/Rocky Helmet, respectively. Instead, Defiant, Contrary and Taunt are the main issues. The advantages Parting Shot has are that the attack drops let you pivot in frailer mons, and it also has a niche use against Magic Bounce users as it can phaze them out (particularly helpful vs. Mega Sableye). However, the inability to deal damage means that you cannot wear down defensive checks with it, quite troubling for Pangoro (its only user) who cannot use its powerful 124 Attack with it. Parting Shot is better than Memento most of the time, as the ability to return to battle later on is more valuable than an additional stat stage drop (since switching cancels them out). PS: While there aren't any OU mons using this ability, Parting Shot is negated entirely by Soundproof, though I don't think this issue will ever come up.

2. Whether it's pivoting, offensive momentum, Memento-esque support, or something else, what is the "ideal" way to use Parting Shot? Why?

Because Parting Shot is a non-damaging move, it is probably better suited on a defensive mon as it does not require offensive stats to get more useful. Another good user would be a stallbreaker, which generally has more offense-oriented checks so that it can hit them with a stat drop, allowing another mon to come in more easily. Regarding speed, a Parting Shot user can actually be either fast or slow, where faster users would be able to weaken an attacker for a more defensive check and slower users can pivot just like with VoltTurn, with the added benefit of crippling incoming attackers. As a cherry on top, you can also screw over speed passers like Scolipede with a Parting Shot.
 
Responding to ReachZero's argument that Parting Shot will never be better than a coverage move, I think that's not necessarily true. It would be heavily dependent on what STABs and coverage we actually give this thing whether or not that's true. I think the same could be said for a support pokemon, as it would be hard to find room for PS on something that got Spore / Spikes / Defog / Haze, for instance. As much as we want to make the best possible use of Parting Shot, it's important to remember that we don't need to make Parting Shot the best move in the game. No matter what we do, we are going to need to avoid certain things that would overshadow a PS-oriented strategy. We want to be as creative and clever as possible to get the most out of Parting Shot (as opposed to something heavy-handed like great stats and a crap movepool with PS), but at the same time, our goal is not to prove that a pokemon uses PS instead of the best moves in the game even though it has them.

Right now I think offense and support are both viable options, one thing that I want to point out is that a support pokemon can also be fast. Very fast if we want it to be. Another thing I would like to talk more about (but I have to go) is that being forced out after a kill or met with an enemy pivot is a very common occurence in the early and mid-game, and that lots of early damage is done on switches and force-outs; the idea of a having a buffed switch-out isn't as underpowered as some are making it out to be. It isn't like the moveslot is solely devoted to that, since it will still punishe switches hard. I know at some point we will need to narrow things down between offense and support but I think for now both are still quite worth considering.
 
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Scoopapa said:
Responding to ReachZero's argument that Parting Shot will never be better than a coverage move, I think that's not necessarily true. It would be heavily dependent on what STABs and coverage we actually give this thing whether or not that's true. I think the same could be said for a support pokemon, as it would be hard to find room for PS on something that got Spore / Spikes / Defog / Haze, for instance. As much as we want to make the best possible use of Parting Shot, it's important to remember that we don't need to make Parting Shot the best move in the game. No matter what we do, we are going to need to avoid certain things that would overshadow a PS-oriented strategy. We want to be as creative and clever as possible to get the most out of Parting Shot (as opposed to something heavy-handed like great stats and a crap movepool with PS), but at the same time, our goal is not to prove that a pokemon uses PS instead of the best moves in the game even though it has them.

Right now I think offense and support are both viable options, one thing that I want to point out is that a support pokemon can also be fast. Very fast if we want it to be. Another thing I would like to talk more about (but I have to go) is that being forced out after a kill or met with an enemy pivot is a very common occurence in the early and mid-game, and that lots of early damage is done on switches and force-outs; the idea of a having a buffed switch-out isn't as underpowered as some are making it out to be. It isn't like the moveslot is solely devoted to that, since it will still punishe switches hard. I know at some point we will need to narrow things down between offense and support but I think for now both are still quite worth considering.
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I agree with pretty much everything in this post. If this post hadn't been put up, I probably would've made a post that expressed at the least the second paragraph's sentiment very closely. The only point I think he missed is that if our Parting Shot user is slow, then it probably eats two hits every time it comes in along with hazards damage. This is probably the spot to mention I also agree with reachzero that CAP22 needs to be a support Pokemon with offensive presence (but not too much offensive presence obviously, or else it won't run Parting Shot).

So now that I've quoted/borrowed from two people with just a scrap of an idea coming from myself, I guess I don't really have anything else. Other than that I obviously think it would be best off as a fast support Pokemon.
 
Premise 1: Parting Shot needs to be used on a Pokemon that is actively threatening the opponent in order to capitalize on free switches
Premise 2: Most offensively threatening Pokemon can't spare this moveslot because of 4MSS. Once the opponent knows they lack a 4th coverage move or a boosting move, etc, they become far less likely to switch, which greatly diminishes Parting Shot's usefulness

Conclusion: The CAP needs to be offensively threatening and needs to be able to do so in 3 attacking moves.

Pangoro is already a good example of this with Knock Off, Superpower, and Gunk Shot. Unfortunately, Pangoro is too slow and/or has too mediocre bulk/defensive typing to effectively do this role in an OU metagame. But I don't think CAP needs to stray too far from the Pangoro mold to make this work.
 
Bughouse said:
Premise 1: Parting Shot needs to be used on a Pokemon that is actively threatening the opponent in order to capitalize on free switches
Premise 2: Most offensively threatening Pokemon can't spare this moveslot because of 4MSS. Once the opponent knows they lack a 4th coverage move or a boosting move, etc, they become far less likely to switch, which greatly diminishes Parting Shot's usefulness

Conclusion: The CAP needs to be offensively threatening and needs to be able to do so in 3 attacking moves.

Pangoro is already a good example of this with Knock Off, Superpower, and Gunk Shot. Unfortunately, Pangoro is too slow and/or has too mediocre bulk/defensive typing to effectively do this role in an OU metagame. But I don't think CAP needs to stray too far from the Pangoro mold to make this work.
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I fully agree with this. The whole "3 offensive moves and a utility move" reminds me of Rapid Spin Starmie, since its offenses are not overwhelming but it has a great deal of coverage to put in the remaining three moveslots. I believe CAP could be like Starmie in this way.
 
So looking back to our original two questions, I think we've done a fairly good job at analyzing the first question; we have a pretty good understanding of how Parting Shot works. Perhaps the most important (obvious, but still important) difference that we've touched on is that it can't directly do damage (compared to U-turn and Volt Switch), so the mere presence of Parting Shot on a set isn't enough to force a switch and grab momentum. The ability to force a switch has to come from CAP 22's other traits, the most notable example that's been brought up so far being its offensive presence. There are many things we'd need to consider here; for example, if we want Parting Shot to actually see use on the set, getting good 3 move coverage is important. I won't delve too deeply into this right now (might be a topic for later), but it's something to keep in mind.

Right now I'm seeing multiple "visions" for the Pokemon, and I want to focus the discussion towards this for the remainder of the concept assessment. Slow vs Fast and Offensive vs Support are the two key distinctions here. By "Slow", I'm referring to a Parting Shot user that will generally want to move after the foe (assuming the foe stays in) to bring its teammate in undamaged so that it can healthily set up versus a weakened foe. By "Fast", I'm referring to a Parting Shot user that will want to hit the foe with Parting Shot first (assuming the foe stays in) so it can soften the blow for its teammate that switches in (this could be accomplished by a high Speed stat or Prankster, but I don't want to get too ahead of ourselves yet). The differences between offensive and support are fairly straightforward (an offensive user should be able to force out opposing Pokemon with its offensive prowess, a support mon is more geared towards... well, support). So, I'd like us to focus between these distinctions a bit more, as they'll play an important role in our upcoming stages.

In a way, this brings us back to our second question: what is the ideal way to use Parting Shot? This is important, seeing as we'd like CAP 22 to be defined by its use! Once we can get more of a consensus on this, I'm happy to move forward!
 
sparktrain said:
Right now I'm seeing multiple "visions" for the Pokemon, and I want to focus the discussion towards this for the remainder of the concept assessment. Slow vs Fast and Offensive vs Support are the two key distinctions here. By "Slow", I'm referring to a Parting Shot user that will generally want to move after the foe (assuming the foe stays in) to bring its teammate in undamaged so that it can healthily set up versus a weakened foe. By "Fast", I'm referring to a Parting Shot user that will want to hit the foe with Parting Shot first (assuming the foe stays in) so it can soften the blow for its teammate that switches in (this could be accomplished by a high Speed stat or Prankster, but I don't want to get too ahead of ourselves yet). The differences between offensive and support are fairly straightforward (an offensive user should be able to force out opposing Pokemon with its offensive prowess, a support mon is more geared towards... well, support). So, I'd like us to focus between these distinctions a bit more, as they'll play an important role in our upcoming stages.

In a way, this brings us back to our second question: what is the ideal way to use Parting Shot? This is important, seeing as we'd like CAP 22 to be defined by its use! Once we can get more of a consensus on this, I'm happy to move forward!
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I think we should go for a slow, offensive Pokemon.

Offensive reasoning:
I feel like this discussion has made it clear that Parting Shot can be used to great effect when the opponent can be forced out by offensive pressure.

Slow reasoning:
Again, I think that SPS will provide more opportunities for incoming Pokemon, assuming the Pokemon we create is able to take a hit from whatever it tries using the move against. Assuming the Pokemon moved faster than the opponent, the incoming Pokemon would still take damage, and the foe might be able to KO it the first turn it has to act. However, if the new Pokemon comes in without taking damage, it can get a more free turn to set up or attack whatever it has been sent in to stop.

Basically, I could see this Pokemon rewarding smart play this way. The player has to analyze the capabilities of both sides and how the opponent plays before deciding if it would be best to attack and potentially put the opponent at a disadvantage or get in a teammate at a potential advantage.
 
A possibility we could discuss is that it could run both fast and slow simultaneously, via having prankster (sorry if I'm getting ahead of us) as an optional ability on a slow pokemon, so it could either take a fast approach or a slow one depending on preference.
 
I've been thinking about a slow Pokémon for this CAP. Not too sure about offense vs. support right now, though.

Slow reasoning: The Pokémon arriving into battle would likely appreciate taking no damage when they switch in, especially when Pursuit has its full 80 BP as the Parting Shot user switches out. The switch-in would also enjoy indirectly forcing a switch against something it can't face without the debuffs.
 
As the match moves on, the purpose of Parting Shot changes from the focus of pivoting to supporting a sweeper. If we were to go the slower route, we would get worn down too quickly in order to be useful more than once or twice through the match. Going slow will force us to take a hit every time that we want to use Parting Shot, an option in which many times a hard switch will be preferred to avoid damage altogether as to preserve it for later. A faster route would allow us to take advantage of the ability to be useful throughout the match and not take unnecessary damage when a better suited teammate can take the hit (less damage even!).

It's hard to determine the better direction in terms of offensive and supportive, as these are not necessarily mutually exclusive (look at Tyranitar and Landorus-T). We need both in order to bring Parting Shot into the mainstream, because it is simply not strong enough of a move to carve this CAP a niche. If we were to choose just one however to begin building off of, having a solid offensive base is more important than having a supportive focus in order to force switches that are prime targets for Parting Shot during both phases of the match.
 
Let's start with which teams appreciate which approach to Parting Shot.
Faster is actually more defensive in this case, allowing to bring better aswer to the hit and soften it as well. This is the more pivoting-heavy way, being more useful for Stall, Semi-stall and VoltTurn teams that benefit from taking moves weak against their respective blockers (right walls or whatever).
Slower is more offensive here, having to take an unweakenedhit most of the time, but bringing the sweeper into a safe situation for setup (especially Cawm and some Tail Glowers appreciate this). This is what helps HO, bulky offense and possibly Balance with a setup finisher.
Given this and the state of the meta, where VoltTurn and Stall rank quite high, I'd go rather for a slower version or possibly Krazyguy's optionally-fast variant.

Now, if faster version is appreciated by slower team setup, support options are as well. The same applies for slower Parting Shot and offensive prowess.
So, I'd go with Slower/Bulkier/Offensive, possibly some mixture (2 attacks, support move and Parting Shot set; the support move might often be Toxic or Yawn (if CAP22 gets this option) because of their capability to give opponent intentions to switch or even Wish (again, given he can) to help your incoming attacker (alleviate hazards damage, maybe the attacker was in before)).
If we go faster, I think the support-heavy option would be more useful.

So, in conclusion, my choices are:
Slow, Mixed > Slow, Offensive > Fast, Support > Fast, Mixed > Slow, Support >> Fast, Offensive
 
I don't think we necessarily have to choose between slow vs fast, honestly. If we have a pokemon with good three move coverage, I can easily see it being scarf-able while still being able to fit parting shot and using it effectively. This allows us to have alternate sets where we don't use the scarf and instead use choice bandspecs/expert belt or something and abuse the slow switching aspect while feigning the threat of choice scarf (and having offensive potential). Or leftovers, and making it a very reliable parting shot pivot that can work really well with sweepers that allow multiple setup opportunities.

Of course, Landorus-Therian exists and already does the whole being-slow-or-fast-and-also-pivoting thing, so we'd have to be careful not to overlap with that.
 
I do not think I need to state much more, but I think this discussion over whether or not slow vs fast and offensive Parting Shot user vs. dedicated support Pokemon cannot be brought to a close that well because we do not have a basis for understanding for how Parting Shot will actually work in practice optimally, primarily because we do not have another move that can compare to Parting Shot in its entirety. U-turn, Volt Switch, and Memento have been used for comparisons on what Parting Shot's advantages, nuances, and disadvantages are, but given that we are using this CAP concept to understand how Parting Shot would be used most effectively, we are not going to understand how Parting Shot will be optimally used until after the CAP is completed. FPS vs SPS and three move coverage vs dedicated support are all points we can compare and try to explain favorably, but when it actually comes to choosing how we should tailor our CAP, all we have are strong explanations on which choices between FPS vs SPS and three move coverage vs dedicated support have the highest possibility of being consistent. Just because I personally favor FPS and three move coverage does not necessarily mean that Parting Shot will be used optimally that way, but we will not actually know how it will be optimally used until this CAP is finished and tested.
 
Alfalfa said:
I do not think I need to state much more, but I think this discussion over whether or not slow vs fast and offensive Parting Shot user vs. dedicated support Pokemon cannot be brought to a close that well because we do not have a basis for understanding for how Parting Shot will actually work in practice optimally, primarily because we do not have another move that can compare to Parting Shot in its entirety. U-turn, Volt Switch, and Memento have been used for comparisons on what Parting Shot's advantages, nuances, and disadvantages are, but given that we are using this CAP concept to understand how Parting Shot would be used most effectively, we are not going to understand how Parting Shot will be optimally used until after the CAP is completed. FPS vs SPS and three move coverage vs dedicated support are all points we can compare and try to explain favorably, but when it actually comes to choosing how we should tailor our CAP, all we have are strong explanations on which choices between FPS vs SPS and three move coverage vs dedicated support have the highest possibility of being consistent. Just because I personally favor FPS and three move coverage does not necessarily mean that Parting Shot will be used optimally that way, but we will not actually know how it will be optimally used until this CAP is finished and tested.
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I don't disagree with this, but what you're missing is that CAP is more about the journey than the destination. If smogon was a game development studio, they'd probably have a team of a few people making pokemon concepts and then doing cycle after cycle of test/analyze/test/analyze. CAP is a creation-by-committee type of project, and that has certain disadvantages, but it also exists because it has a wide base of people who want to contribute to the creation, and subsequent testing, of a pokemon. The long, in-depth, sometimes heated debates are one of the benefits of the CAP process, so while they may be no substitute for empirical data, they are really the most valuable part of this process, and you'll learn things you never would have if you and a couple of guys were making / testing mons on your own server, for instance.

At some point we will have to make a decision between FPS and SPS, offense and support, or some compromise. It may not be the absolute best one, but it will probably be the best one as indicated by the reasoned arguments that have been made, and will at the very least be a reasoned one.
 
Scoopapa said:
I don't disagree with this, but what you're missing is that CAP is more about the journey than the destination. If smogon was a game development studio, they'd probably have a team of a few people making pokemon concepts and then doing cycle after cycle of test/analyze/test/analyze. CAP is a creation-by-committee type of project, and that has certain disadvantages, but it also exists because it has a wide base of people who want to contribute to the creation, and subsequent testing, of a pokemon. The long, in-depth, sometimes heated debates are one of the benefits of the CAP process, so while they may be no substitute for empirical data, they are really the most valuable part of this process, and you'll learn things you never would have if you and a couple of guys were making / testing mons on your own server, for instance.

At some point we will have to make a decision between FPS and SPS, offense and support, or some compromise. It may not be the absolute best one, but it will probably be the best one as indicated by the reasoned arguments that have been made, and will at the very least be a reasoned one.
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I do not deny any of what you state; I am familiar with how the CAP process works, which is entirely why I am here. My point is that we are not going to learn how Parting Shot is best used until after the creation of the CAP and the beginning of CAP testing, and that we have no guarantees that our CAP will fulfill the concept to its entirety.
 
Alfalfa said:
I do not think I need to state much more, but I think this discussion over whether or not slow vs fast and offensive Parting Shot user vs. dedicated support Pokemon cannot be brought to a close that well because we do not have a basis for understanding for how Parting Shot will actually work in practice optimally, primarily because we do not have another move that can compare to Parting Shot in its entirety.
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I have to disagree with this premise in its entirety. Just because nothing functions like this doesn't mean it's not really predictable. If a move came into existence tomorrow with 90% accuracy that dropped the target's Defense by 1 and froze it, we would all pretty much know how well a move like that would work and what mons it would be best on. The same applies to Parting Shot. We know the mechanics of Parting Shot, and we know what those mechanics facilitate. In fact, given that literally everybody in the thread has very quickly identified that Parting Shot doesn't level the offensive pressure of Volt Switch, and that FPS supports more defensive strategies like semi-stall and SPS supports more hyper-offensive strategies, I'd say Parting Shot is even more predictable than the example I just gave.
 
NumberCruncher said:
I have to disagree with this premise in its entirety. Just because nothing functions like this doesn't mean it's not really predictable. If a move came into existence tomorrow with 90% accuracy that dropped the target's Defense by 1 and froze it, we would all pretty much know how well a move like that would work and what mons it would be best on. The same applies to Parting Shot. We know the mechanics of Parting Shot, and we know what those mechanics facilitate. In fact, given that literally everybody in the thread has very quickly identified that Parting Shot doesn't level the offensive pressure of Volt Switch, and that FPS supports more defensive strategies like semi-stall and SPS supports more hyper-offensive strategies, I'd say Parting Shot is even more predictable than the example I just gave.
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You have that switched around; FPS was stated to support HO, and SPS was meant to support defensive teams. Your move is also not applicable because we would understand that move is a status move, and we would use it that way (also, it is obvious that Parting Shot does not exert offensive pressure on the same level as Volt Switch; that is not difficult to see). Parting Shot is entirely different, in that we have a highly limited data pool on how it can be used to make a Pokemon be defined by it by using it to its optimum. We understand what Parting Shot does, but we do not understand how to tailor a Pokemon to be defined by it at this point.
 
Alfalfa said:
You have that switched around; FPS was stated to support HO, and SPS was meant to support defensive teams. Your move is also not applicable because we would understand that move is a status move, and we would use it that way (also, it is obvious that Parting Shot does not exert offensive pressure on the same level as Volt Switch; that is not difficult to see). Parting Shot is entirely different, in that we have a highly limited data pool on how it can be used to make a Pokemon be defined by it by using it to its optimum. We understand what Parting Shot does, but we do not understand how to tailor a Pokemon to be defined by it at this point.
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NumberCruncher is correct, slow Parting Shot benefits offensive teams with frail setup sweepers more, while fast Parting Shot is for defensively oriented teams. The point of being slow is to make sure that CAP22 takes a hit instead of the Pokemon that is receiving the switch, which makes a big difference for an offensive team.

I think it is a defeatist attitude to claim that we cannot arrive at an answer through discussion. Obviously we cannot prove either argument through data, and perhaps it would still be murky even if we could fully explore and test both options. Nevertheless, that is the whole point of trying this concept! I personally am not convinced that Parting Shot is a good enough move to be competitively viable at all, and I worry that a set based around it will get us C+ to B- viability at best. That being said, we can't really know until we try it, and exploring the unknown is what the CAP project does.
 
To speak more generally first, I've used a number of teams with Drypassing and slow Volt Switch/U-turn, and I can absolutely say that for bulky supportive Pokemon like Forretress and Sylveon/Vaporeon, if they had access to Parting Shot I would take that every day over their existing option. Even though it doesn't do damage, I'd pivot in Forretress a lot more often to shoot off a Parting Shot in addition to mixing it up with Spikes every now and again. That combination of moves on the right user is just sickening. The same applies with Sylveon/Vaproreon and Wish + Parting Shot. Obviously we're very far off from the Moves discussion, but I can easily see the incredible pressure that prediction tree between Switch and Parting Shot along with Wish can impose.

One very important thing to note about all 3 of those Pokemon though, is that they do have significant offensive presence. Vaporeon's Scald comes off a 110 Base SpA stat and can spread burns, Sylveon's Hyper Voice is very powerful against common metagame threats, and Forretress, while the most passive, can threaten Mega Diancie and other fairies with Gyro Ball or stack hazards. What I mean is none of those 3 Pokemon just sit there setting up, there is an inherent risk to switching into them and if they had access to Parting Shot, their other traits would increase that risk.

So I can vouch that Slow Support Parting Shot has a niche that a few Pokemon can already draw parallels too as a replacement move. It does seem to me though that if you're arguing for Slow Support, you can't entirely ignore offensive presence. What I'm saying is Slow Parting Shot does not work for a pure support Pokemon, it needs to be able to at least threaten one or two relevant CAP metagame threats.

Next I'll move on to Fast Support. Here I think the kind of support matters the most. Parting Shot + Hazards prevents an opponent from simply switching out unharmed, as the hazards do the work of adding offensive pressure. The key here though is that CAP must force an opponent into a position where they want to switch, so it can best utilize the mindgame of when to set the hazard and when to Parting Shot. So in that sense, you can't divorce Fast Support from an Offensive presence. It's the offensive presence that makes the Fast Support work.

What does this mean overall for this project?

The first is that we have to balance supporting role with a relevant offensive presence. We do not need to force most of the metagame to switch. We do need to force relevant parts of it to switch.

The second is we need to augment Parting Shot with the right support if we go down a primarily Support route. Without setting anything in stone, Parting Shot works best in those situations where either our Pokemon intends to switch (with or without Parting Shot) or the opponent intends to switch. Contrast a Fast Offensive route, where the best support we can offer for Parting Shot is great 3 move coverage, or 2 move coverage and one of the aforementioned kinds of support.

I am still leaning heavily in the Fast Offensive direction, but I do think the Pokemon should be more balanced and have additional supporting capabilities. In ORAS CAP the metagame is defined by Pokemon that break the old Build Triangle, so that the standard for a good Pokemon is both stats and options. I think it's perfectly possible to make a Pokemon work in this environment, and if CAP could break the the most aggravating members of CAP Stall and Semi-Stall teams we would achieve both a unique and effective Parting Shot user and a positive effect on the metagame.
 
I'm leaning more towards FPS than SPS still. On an offensive mon, FPS isn't just a buffed switch so much as a debuffed revenge kill for your opponent. Usually fainting a pokemon gives the other player a big opportunity to regain momentum, and FPS would cut that opportunity significantly. The same would apply to them switching into pivots or tanks to force you out. Normally these pokemon are supposed to gain momentum or deal damage, but Parting Shot messes with any kind of double switch or damaging attack they would throw at you (not slow U-turn though). Ideally something like this could threaten out a decent number of OU pokemon and either get a kill or force out their counters, then Parting Shot to keep momentum far better than a weak U-turn would. As long as we don't give it a choose-your-counters type of movepool, I think this could work pretty well. The problem with status moves or stall mons would be easy to solve with things like Taunt, Encore, various status healing/reflecting/negating abilities, or by making sure we synergize well with pokemon that have those abilities. It seems like there are a lot of options here. For instance, Mega Sableye could recieve a -1 attack or status move very easily. Scald can also be absorbed by CAP or it's teammates based on abilities. Good dual STAB and little-to-no coverage would ensure we have offensive presence but don't end up running 4-attack or Sub-3-attack sets.

In terms of support, a fast and bulky CAP could support various offense playstyles with field effects and/or hazard support options. Such a pokemon would ideally be able to set up it's support reliably with enough health to do it again later in the match, thanks to its speed. Parting Shot gives you a better switch to a field effect abuser or escape from the nuke they switched in while you were laying hazards. It would probably need one great STAB move to stand on its own without any other good options (like Crobat). Trick Room would be interesting because you get a FPS after Trick Room but a SPS otherwise. Unfortunately the same build would be unlikely to work for both Rain Dance/Tailwind and Trick Room because the Trick Room build would probably be slow.

SPS isn't impossible but I think the pokemon would need to be incredibly hard to kill to pull this off. A SPS support mon would need at least one turn to get something done, then take an attack the second turn (if not the first also) in order to pivot to a teammate. In many cases you would give your opponent the opportunity to hit you with their best shot before pivoting, meaning you are basically left with death fodder afterwards. In such a case it's not even necessarily better than Memento. This isn't an insurmountable problem, but I think the range of solutions is fairly narrow. Epic bulk/typing and Regenerator come to mind. An offensive SPS could get around this by forcing a lot of switches, but I see a greater conflict of interests here between dealing damage and using Parting Shot. Unlike FPS, you basically have to choose one or the other each time you come in, making it much more prediction reliant. A wallbreaker that can also give sweepers a setup opportunity does sound pretty cool, but I think allowing this CAP to heavily damage all switch-ins, even if it requires prediction, is a bad idea. A fast attacker has an easier time being walled without sucking, which gives us a better opportunity to use Parting Shot almost every time we switch in.
 
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Personally, I could easily see us building a mon that could both FPS and SPS. Lando can fast pivot and slow pivot by simply having mediocre speed the can get pushed pretty high by a Choice Scarf. It also makes our mon more likely to succeed if it can function on both semistall and hyper offense, as well as fitting whichever role you need in balance.
 
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