We're done talking about whatever's been going on the last 8 or so posts please move on.
I dont agree with any of this. Volc has been an A+ mon since quite a while. And no meta trend has really changed against Volc. Tran was always an issue, Tran has always been an overused OU mon in the tier. Thats why a lot have been running hp ground to kill it after a boost i believe. Scarf Kartana does not ohko it with AA. Also, Kartana has been around ever since its arrival. Check up the calc. Even at Adamant nature, u got 0% of killing it. If u factor in the bulky Volcs, Kartana is not the mon u can rely to prevent Volc sweeps. Mantine is a danger but so is it a very defensive and extremely passive mon. There are many ways of pressuring it and finishing it off with a z move of sorts after 1 or two prior boosts. Also, Mantine is not a viable mon of high ranked teams. It relies too much on matchup. Building a team around Volc dont need to worry about the odd teams that carry around a mantine when there are much better options than the job mantine is supposed to do.I'm gonna chime in on Volcarona. A while back, I was vehemently against it, and in spite of some meta trends favoring it - Celes/Pex/Venu is troubled by the Psychium Z set, and entry hazard removal is really good rn with the rise of Latias-Mega - I believe it's time for a drop. Offensively, yes, it still is very versatile. However, current teams are beginning to adapt to it. People have finally realized that >100 base scarfmons are not the best way to deal with it. In addition to what Robopoke had said, there are some more meta trends hurting it:
- Mantine, I'm noticing, is becoming more commonplace, even with Zard Y falling off (btw there is no way this thing should fall to B+, it's an absolutely horrifying wallbreaker and it still poses a huge threat to balance/stall). This just straight-up walls Volcarona.
- Scarf Kartana is becoming the more popular set, and while it supports Volc with Defog, it also KOes with Aerial Ace.
- The rise of Heatran. This thing hard walls Volcarona without HP Ground, which is losing usage as Bug Buzz and Psychic are gaining its place. Dugtrio can trap, yes, but Bulu is normally paired with Heatran, making that EQ rather weak.
Volcarona can still end games on its own, yes, but I feel that the rise of balance and stall teams that beat it, along with offense still not letting its guard down against it, means that it no longer has the prowess of other A+ mons and should subsequently drop.
Counter-Arguments:Argumens for drop:
1) Chansey. Chansey is literally everywhere. On Dittosquads, common Stallbuilds and it even found its way on Balance and some offense Builds as a cushion to fall back on.
2) Toxapex has Shed Shell, which makes trapping Pex very difficult with Dugtrio. You can still use Z-Bug Buzz over Z-Psychic if you support your Dugtrio with something like Knock Off Torn-T or Knock Off Clefable, but this is obviously another factor you did not have to consider during SPL meta.
3) Ditto himself. The rising usage of Ditto discouarges setting up in general and Ditto revengekills unless you have Firium Z (a Set that is extremly hard to justify these days).
4) Decreasing usage and viablity of mons Volcarona loves to take advantage off (Mew, Tangrowth).
5) Mega Diancie. Diancie can revengekill Volcarona because it can just stay in regular, eat the Giga Drain and Diamond Storm for the OHKO.
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Diancie: 198-234 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I admit, it is a very shacky check but it works on offensive teams. Volcarona will prob not find oppurtinies to setup twice.
6) Rise of Birdspam and increasing popularity for Dragonite for example. Those teams have an HO lead that gets up Rocks very early. If you Defog you might lose because of the offensive nature and Volcarona often enough will be a sitting duck. It can setup on Bolt Beam Magearna though, but even then there is so much priority (Sneak, Espeed, Quick Attack). Even other HO teams just have to keep their Mimikyu if they otherwise lose to Volcarona and Mimikyu is literally on every HO team.
7) Mega Scizor viability shift for its SD Set. Usually Mega Scizor is used as Defogger (still is) but with SD being much more viable, Volcarona loses another target he can setup on without taking any damage. +2 BP 2HKOs so you cannot switch in and click Quiver Dance.
8) Volcarona usage. Saying usage does not matter for viability is a plain lie. It does but it should not be used as a sole reason for a drop and fact is, Volcarona has very little usage right now.
9) Outclassed as a straightup-attacker by other mons. While Volcarona does not have to setup to be a threat, why use it then over something like Specs Lele or something more comparable, Specs Chandelure who has proven to be one of the most reliable breakers in the tier?
You cant say it deserves to drop than say it can be an A+ mon. You also didnt explain what trends have made it less viable. What checks are on an all time high? And, if im thinking the ones you thought, they have been around for quite some time and yet Volc was still an A+ mon.Volcarona should drop to A
Volcarona is still the threatening mon it was, but recent meta trends is not favourable for the bug. While Volcarona can still theoretically break through any of its checks, in practice there are just too much things your volc has to prepare for when so much of those checks are at all time high, power or usage. This makes it significantly more difficult to be effective. Volc is such a restrictive mon to use and you always want to get a lot in return, and currently it is not providing the return that really warrants A+ imo.
Make no mistake however, volc is still an amazing mon in SM OU, and I believe it could easily break A+ again in the future. But right now, kinda like diancie, it is one of the best pokemon in A, still waiting for the next opportunity to shine.
Yes, Tran was always an issue, but it's beginning to become more and more of one. Psychicium Z is its only hope vs Pex/Celes/Venu, yet in that it gives up HP Ground as Giga Drain is pretty much a must on it. Tran's usage is increasing btw, so that is a change as it is on more teams. Kartana does around 78-90% on it, which means that with a bit of chip, it will revenge kill. Don't mention Bulky Volc - that's really fallen off and I haven't seen one in forever. In addition, Mantine is still viable in upper-tier play and while it is MU reliant, it makes certain matchups unwinnable for Volcarona. You're not breaking past it:I dont agree with any of this. Volc has been an A+ mon since quite a while. And no meta trend has really changed against Volc. Tran was always an issue, Tran has always been an overused OU mon in the tier. Thats why a lot have been running hp ground to kill it after a boost i believe. Scarf Kartana does not ohko it with AA. Also, Kartana has been around ever since its arrival. Check up the calc. Even at Adamant nature, u got 0% of killing it. If u factor in the bulky Volcs, Kartana is not the mon u can rely to prevent Volc sweeps. Mantine is a danger but so is it a very defensive and extremely passive mon. There are many ways of pressuring it and finishing it off with a z move of sorts after 1 or two prior boosts. Also, Mantine is not a viable mon of high ranked teams. It relies too much on matchup. Building a team around Volc dont need to worry about the odd teams that carry around a mantine when there are much better options than the job mantine is supposed to do.
I just dont see why now it deserves a drop when all of these weaknesses have been around for a very long time. Every mon has a weakness. You pointed out its faults but its strengths are far too strong and worthy of an A+ mon. It is one of the most dangerous sweepers. It carries around a wide selection of move sets. It can carry around hp ground, hp ice, Fire Blast, Bug Buzz, Psychic, Giga Drain, along with z moves. Its far too hard to contain this mon. You cant scout out its moves, cuz if u do u lose to it dancing up. Whenever you see an opposling Volc, you know you gotta play the game entirely different, just like when u play a Duggy squad.
1) I still dont see how Chansey works against a drop. I understand ur reasoning but here's why I just dont agree. Volc was ranked an A+ mon for quite some time and I remember one point in the meta where every single team had a chansey, like literally, on stall, on balance and on offense. The past rise of Growth and recent surge of Mew have decreased this mon's usage as they both are more offensive and less passive. But the point is even when Chansey was everywhere, on every single team, Volc still was an A+ mon. So why would it drop now? Back then I dont believe trapping Chansey was a thing. Now, Duggy traps it with ease and kills it. And now we have so many physical wallbreakers thru the release of the stones.Thanks for answering to every point.
1) Chansey in the last cycles of OLT has increased in usage because there is just soo much to cover in the SM OU metagame, where Chansey helps teambuilding. You will see Dittosquads with Mega Medicham and Zygarde that have a Chansey or other bulky offense Squads tat have a random Chansey on them. It is already getting ridicilous srs. It just an all around answer to threats from Diancie to Zapdos to Kingdra to Magearna with access to Stealth Rock and tools like Skill Swap (which goes through Sub) to escape Dugtrio and it also helps vs Serperior Contrary and Hawlucha trying to SD on you, just to lose the Speedboost from Unburden to get revengekilled by Ditto (these are situations I actually saw happening).
2) This argument was a rhetoric way to say that Z-Psychic should be the only Set to use which cuts into the viability imo.
3) I said Ditto, not Dugtrio bro ^^ I can kinda understand you, both are nasty
4) Mew is still very common but you do not see Tangrowth that much these days. Tangrowth just gives too many threats free setup/switch-ins, is weak to all form of hazards (Dual Hazards Taunt Gren anyone?) which is the reason it dropped. But on the other hand Ferrothorn is used much more so you can ignore this point if you want for Volcarona having fewer mons to setup on.
5) Diancie is not a counter, of course not. But it is a check and most Volcarona teams are pressured to keep of hazards so it is a realistic assumption to not have Rocks on your Side. Thus Diancie can be used to check Volcarona, even if Volcarona is at +1.
6) They are not only njnp teams but yea, those teams are very fast paced and give Volcarona no air to breath. Volcarona is not fast, bulky and strong enough. The teams it can actually find oppurtinies to get off a free Quiver Dance have consistent countermeasures. Chansey, Ditto or even Mega Latias.
7) Obv Mega Scizor does not counter. But with SD being viable again, Volcarona cannot switch into Mega Scizor as it SDes and afford to Quiver Dance. You have to Fire Blast because BP can 2HKO after some chip (maybe from early game U-Turn)
8) This does say alot for Volcarona. Why do u think the usage of Volcarona lately is so low? Hard to build with? Hard to sweep with? Hard to win with consistently is the answer. You can thank me later.
9) Being choicelocked if your name is Chandlure is not a big deal. Two of the current best offensive typings into one pokemon should already speak for itself.
Dont you hate it when you see that one playstyle on your opponents team and be like "ok, this and this are useless". You absolutetly cannot afford to have mons on your teams that are 100% useless unless you prepared for them via teambuilding with your teammates. Koko for example, another A+ mon is never useless. Even if your Set cannot break Ferrothorn for example, you can U-Turn as it switches in on it. Volcarona in a terrible matchup has to make a double which is ironic because you have to remove Rocks before you can afford doubling around. Why limit yourself so badly? Just use mons like Specs Lele and see resists taking 45%+ to sweep with Scarf Kartana, no setupmove required.
Also Kartana needs to rise, but I am too lazy to provide the reasons rn.
Volc, like all other mons, can only carry 4 moves, meaning whichever moves it selects, it will be exposed to other mons. Its like that every mon and esp for the sweepers. Lets take Mag for example. If it carries the beambolt set it cant hit tran for any damage nor can it ohko certain offensive mons like Lele unless it has calm minded a bunch of times. Mag can run Focus blast, Ice beam and tbolt but then its weak to mons like Mew. I mean it all depends on the set u choose, if u run a certain set then a good player will have others mon to kill those that walls his sweeper.Yes, Tran was always an issue, but it's beginning to become more and more of one. Psychicium Z is its only hope vs Pex/Celes/Venu, yet in that it gives up HP Ground as Giga Drain is pretty much a must on it. Tran's usage is increasing btw, so that is a change as it is on more teams. Kartana does around 78-90% on it, which means that with a bit of chip, it will revenge kill. Don't mention Bulky Volc - that's really fallen off and I haven't seen one in forever. In addition, Mantine is still viable in upper-tier play and while it is MU reliant, it makes certain matchups unwinnable for Volcarona. You're not breaking past it:
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 240 HP / 72+ SpD Mantine: 189-223 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's not enough. The strongest move Volcarona otherwise has against it is Fire Blast (yes it is in fact more powerful than Giga Drain vs it), which 5HKOes against Mantine. At +2, Haze can get rid of all of Volcarona's boosts, while Scald does around 44.3-52.7% to it. This is all in addition to what robopoke has pointed out.
I was gonna bring that up with my Slowbro downgrade nom and forgot, thanks for bringing this up.I have been meaning to make this nomination for a while, but I think I forgot about it.
I think Buzzwole should go to c- or UR. There is basically no reason to use it. It can't check ground types reliably at all due to landorus with SSSS, Zygarde and Garchomp with Devastating drake. New bird spam teams is simply awful, with that 4x weakness. If running earthquake, Buzzwole gives landorus t free setup on veil, if running poison jab, Toxapex comes in for free and starts firing tspikes.
Conclusion:
Buzzwole is deadweight against stall.
Buzzwole is easily pressured by offense.
Buzzwole is easily walled by balance.
Buzzwole is forced out by Bird Spam.
Buzzwole also gives Landorus t free setup on veil if not running ice punch, Or magearna if not running earthquake if behind veil, which is not very difficult, especially with Buzzwole a low spd and speed.
Buzzwole: C to C- or UR
Lack of viability can also be seen in tournament results. Unless I missed some games, Buzzwole almost never showed up. I don't actually remember seeing a game with it recent official tourneys. Like you guys have said, it just doesn't have enough favorable matchups to be much more than a cellar-dweller in OU right now. Not unranked, but C- I can definitely get behind.I really REALLY wanted Buzzwole to be a great physical wall but SSS/Devastating Drake means that Buzzwole can't actually wall Dragonite/Landorus-T/Garchomp/Zygarde unfortunately.
I disagree w/ droppping swole as a whole, but this point in particular is just objectively false. While I concede this is somewhat outdated, looking at wcop usage stats ( the most recent tourney that records usage stats unless I've forgotten something, keep in mind this was written before smog tour starts), buzzwole was used twice, winning both times. The only mons in c used more in that tour were kyurem, nihilego, thundy t and cress, all w/ a negative w/l ratio, in fact, buzzwole won the most wcop games in c (equal with nihilego and kyreum). Barring shuckle (which shouldn't be used now bc diancie), which had equal usage, it was used more than every mon in c-. Looking at a more recent tour, olt, only mons in c or c- that have actually been used there are cress, uxie, crawdaunt, gliscor and crawdaunt. ofc it doesn't see much usage, but compared to other mons in c, its towards the middle of the pack.Lack of viability can also be seen in tournament results. Unless I missed some games, Buzzwole almost never showed up. I don't actually remember seeing a game with it recent official tourneys. Like you guys have said, it just doesn't have enough favorable matchups to be much more than a cellar-dweller in OU right now. Not unranked, but C- I can definitely get behind.
unfortunately i think you are missing something. what has changed for dugtrio? what's made it better? all this post does is state dugtrio's role, like we know it traps tapu lele. if anything dugtrio has gotten less effective because of all the teambuilding tricks you mentioned, that argument would be better off if you were arguing for dugtrio to be banned due to its effect on teambuilding.So I haven't looked through the whole thread to see if this was nominated or not, but I believe that Dugtrio should be moved to S rank.
While not being extremely splash able, not extremely versatile, and a little bit team dependent, Dugtrio has the ability to turn the tides of a battle, its able to remove important walls/wincons from the game with very little issues, it forces Pokemon like Toxapex to run Shed Shell to be able to check Charizard-Y, and it forces a thought of "Is my team too Dugtrio weak?" to run through the head of teambuilders.
Dugtrio also has the ability to:
1. Make stall more difficult to beat
2. Make stall easier to beat
As contradictory as this sounds, just by having a Dugtrio on your team (if it fits, of course) your stall matchup becomes MUCH better, as now stall has to think twice about switching into Chansey or Toxapex. If you are able to get Dugtrio in on one of these walls, you are able to eliminate it, making your Charizard-Y or similar wallbreaker a much larger threat to stall.
On the contrary, Dugtrio is able to make certain Pokemon much more difficult to use when attempting to break stall. Non-Shed Shell Tapu Lele is able to be trapped and killed easily by Dugtrio (many people think because they have Tapu Lele they are good vs stall, which is not true, even if it has a shed shell (which if it has a shed shell is even more reason that Dugtrio should be S rank, as it forces a Pokemon that would much rather have a different item to use Shed Shell)). Although there are teambuilding strategies (eg. Knock Off SD landorus-T and Magnezone) for beating stall, Dugtrio can prevent many "band-aid" stall checks from being a reliable answer.
When playing vs Dugtrio, you also have to worry about whether the Dugtrio has a Choice Scarf, a Focus Sash, or a Z-Move. If it has something like a Choice Scarf, it is much less of a threat to your Toxapex and Chansey, but now you can't play loosey-goosey with your Tapu Koko or other fast pivots. If it's Z-Move (which is the most common) you have to be much more careful with certain walls, or you have to teambuild in specific manners to avoid Dugtrio being able to handle all of your walls (eg. on SPL stall, unless Dugtrio has Reversal AND Z-Move, the Dugtrio may have a harder time dealing with both Chansey and Toxapex).
Although creative teambuilding tricks have been implemented in many high-tier teams to hinder Dugtrio (Shed Shell most specifically, but I have watched a high rank battle where Chansey used Skill Swap to get around Dugtrio), the fact that people are having to use these sets when they would much rather use normal, more consistent sets is why I believe Dugtrio should be moved up to S rank (also the fact that playing around a Dugtrio is very difficult at times).
If I am missing something, please let me know, otherwise, I hope I contributed to the discussion n_n
The difference is that if Volcarona doesn't carry a certain move, it's downright useless in a matchup. Without Z-Psychic, it's useless against balance. Without HP Ground, it needs a Dugtrio. Without HP Ice, it struggles vs the up-and-coming Dragonite, and by extension, bird spam. Without Giga Drain, the rising Manaphy exploits it. Dugtrio used to be able to solve some of these problems, but it's become ineffective vs many of the threats that Volcarona wants gone and is useless vs bird spam. It's not as simple as using other mons to get rid of those threats because by the time you're done with that, not only will your entire team be built around Volcarona, it still won't consistently win with all the threats in this meta and all the teams that Volcarona handles. Compare this to Magearna. It's never useless in a matchup, and can almost always find a way to sweep vs any team. The same can almost be said about Zygarde, which I've found to more consistently sweep in this meta. As robopoke said, consistency and frequency in sweeping is what matters, and Volcarona has lost both traits to the extent that I believe it's a much better fit in A. robopoke also pointed out its declining influence, which is rather important for an A+ mon to keep their rank.Volc, like all other mons, can only carry 4 moves, meaning whichever moves it selects, it will be exposed to other mons. Its like that every mon and esp for the sweepers. Lets take Mag for example. If it carries the beambolt set it cant hit tran for any damage nor can it ohko certain offensive mons like Lele unless it has calm minded a bunch of times. Mag can run Focus blast, Ice beam and tbolt but then its weak to mons like Mew. I mean it all depends on the set u choose, if u run a certain set then a good player will have others mon to kill those that walls his sweeper.
Volc has counters, so does every sweeper. That will never change in pokemon. If it does it will go straight to Ubers.
OMG I've been saying this for weeks now! Bisharp simply isn't good in this current meta. In addition to Webs falling off, Aurora Veil has fallen out. While it can really manhandle Pex/Celes/Venu rather well, it's simply dying vs anything else. Bird spam isn't a favorable matchup for it, as there's plenty of super effective coverage against it and it's not able to do much back. Dual Defog stall also isn't a great matchup, as there are resists to both of its STABs on the team, in addition to Dugtrio trapping and killing it. Lele is getting better, and it kills with Focus Blast or even Moonblast due to Psychic Terrain blocking Sucker. Kyurem-Black is rising and it forces a 50-50 with Sharp - either click Sucker and die if they roost or click Iron Head and die if they clicks Earth Power. I have to go rn but I'm gonna finish writing up this post later.Bisharp should drop to B rank.
Right now Bisharp doesn't really seem like a great pick in the current meta. The playstyle Bisharp fits best on, Webs, has died down quite a bit over the past couple of months because other HO playstyles like webs and birdspam are a lot more popular and consistent. In addition, Bisharp's checks and counters are still prevalent if not getting more popular. Mega Scizor, Skarmory, Mega Lopunny, Mega Swampert, Zygarde, Ash-Greninja, (and regular Greninja too) Tapu Lele, Toxapex, Tapu Koko, Heatran, Hippowdon, Keldeo, etc, all still get good usage, and some like Hippowdon and Mega Scizor are rising in popularity, while mons like Zygarde and Toxapex have always been top Pokemon in the tier. I just don't think Bisharp can thrive in a metagame that's as prepared for it as right now, compared to the beginning and middles of the generation when Webs was a dominant playstyle. I don't really see any metagame trends going in favor of Bisharp either outside of Mega Latias getting released and Latios getting more popular, but in my opinion these don't really outweigh the negatives that are going against Bisharp and it doesn't seem to fit with better, more popular Pokemon like Mega Swampert, Kartana, and Mega Latias.