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Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Gary
- Start date
- Status
Regular Slowbro needs to drop to C or even C-. It's just not that great right now. Spike Stacking and Toxic Spikes wreck its ability to check strong physical threats like Mega Medicham (which blows it away with Electric Terrain TPunch anyways) and Mega Tyranitar/Pinsir, and being very vulnerable to VoltTurn is bad when mons like Tapu Koko and BoltBeam Magearna are fairly common.
Volcarona should drop to A
Volcarona is still the threatening mon it was, but recent meta trends is not favourable for the bug. While Volcarona can still theoretically break through any of its checks, in practice there are just too much things your volc has to prepare for when so much of those checks are at all time high, power or usage. This makes it significantly more difficult to be effective. Volc is such a restrictive mon to use and you always want to get a lot in return, and currently it is not providing the return that really warrants A+ imo.
Make no mistake however, volc is still an amazing mon in SM OU, and I believe it could easily break A+ again in the future. But right now, kinda like diancie, it is one of the best pokemon in A, still waiting for the next opportunity to shine.
Pinsir should stay at A
The release of diancie has certainly knocked it down the throne it once sits, in multiple ways. But I still think it is still much more consistent than most things in A-. If the trends continue however, a drop is not that far way any more.
Volcarona is still the threatening mon it was, but recent meta trends is not favourable for the bug. While Volcarona can still theoretically break through any of its checks, in practice there are just too much things your volc has to prepare for when so much of those checks are at all time high, power or usage. This makes it significantly more difficult to be effective. Volc is such a restrictive mon to use and you always want to get a lot in return, and currently it is not providing the return that really warrants A+ imo.
Make no mistake however, volc is still an amazing mon in SM OU, and I believe it could easily break A+ again in the future. But right now, kinda like diancie, it is one of the best pokemon in A, still waiting for the next opportunity to shine.
Pinsir should stay at A
The release of diancie has certainly knocked it down the throne it once sits, in multiple ways. But I still think it is still much more consistent than most things in A-. If the trends continue however, a drop is not that far way any more.
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I agree with Volcarona dropping. The only thing it has going for now is people with offensive teams not preparing at all and not having a Volcarona check.
Me for example after hundreds of laddergames finally faced Volcarona again, lol.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-623677341
It literally killed three mons from turn 1.
Argumens for drop:
1) Chansey. Chansey is literally everywhere. On Dittosquads, common Stallbuilds and it even found its way on Balance and some offense Builds as a cushion to fall back on.
2) Toxapex has Shed Shell, which makes trapping Pex very difficult with Dugtrio. You can still use Z-Bug Buzz over Z-Psychic if you support your Dugtrio with something like Knock Off Torn-T or Knock Off Clefable, but this is obviously another factor you did not have to consider during SPL meta.
3) Ditto himself. The rising usage of Ditto discouarges setting up in general and Ditto revengekills unless you have Firium Z (a Set that is extremly hard to justify these days).
4) Decreasing usage and viablity of mons Volcarona loves to take advantage off (Mew, Tangrowth).
5) Mega Diancie. Diancie can revengekill Volcarona because it can just stay in regular, eat the Giga Drain and Diamond Storm for the OHKO.
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Diancie: 198-234 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I admit, it is a very shacky check but it works on offensive teams. Volcarona will prob not find oppurtinies to setup twice.
6) Rise of Birdspam and increasing popularity for Dragonite for example. Those teams have an HO lead that gets up Rocks very early. If you Defog you might lose because of the offensive nature and Volcarona often enough will be a sitting duck. It can setup on Bolt Beam Magearna though, but even then there is so much priority (Sneak, Espeed, Quick Attack). Even other HO teams just have to keep their Mimikyu if they otherwise lose to Volcarona and Mimikyu is literally on every HO team.
7) Mega Scizor viability shift for its SD Set. Usually Mega Scizor is used as Defogger (still is) but with SD being much more viable, Volcarona loses another target he can setup on without taking any damage. +2 BP 2HKOs so you cannot switch in and click Quiver Dance.
8) Volcarona usage. Saying usage does not matter for viability is a plain lie. It does but it should not be used as a sole reason for a drop and fact is, Volcarona has very little usage right now.
9) Outclassed as a straightup-attacker by other mons. While Volcarona does not have to setup to be a threat, why use it then over something like Specs Lele or something more comparable, Specs Chandelure who has proven to be one of the most reliable breakers in the tier?
needs to drop further (to B+). You can use almost all arguments I have used for Volcarona. From my experience something like Specs Chandelure is more consistent than Zard Y which is kinda true if you think about it for a second.
(another reason for Zard Y drop) has the potential to rise to A-. That mon can 6-0 Double Defog Stall with CM, Refresh, Stored Power, Roost or be a menace to balance teams with Thunderbolt > Refresh. Against offense it has the bulk and speed to check most threats and it is a superb Kingdra check and can almost 6-0 Rainteams if you weaken Ferrothorn and remove Mega Swampert. These are not new things but I just consider the initial placement of Mega Latias too hasty and thus inaccurate.
needs to rise to B+ because it is the best Suicidelead OU has to offer right now. The only mindgame happens when you see a Mega Lopunny or Medicham, fearing Fake out but no other lead has so little to worry to get up hazards so early. Other Suicideleads like Landorus-T or Azelf require a bit more thoughtprocess (Azelf hates Kokoleads and Landorus-T cant mindlessly get up Rocks against Mega Sab).
deserves to be ranked for its 4 Atks Life Orb Set (C+). With Adamant nature, you 2HKO Skarmory with Fire Punch. Quick Attack is strong enough to oneshot Dugtrio. It is a nice physical attacker that has no switch ins and checks Koko, which is very rare to find. Amazing partner for Scarf Kartana and Mega Pinsir.
Some replays with Diggersby in action:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-624251808
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-624237843
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-624222186
Me for example after hundreds of laddergames finally faced Volcarona again, lol.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-623677341
It literally killed three mons from turn 1.
Argumens for drop:
1) Chansey. Chansey is literally everywhere. On Dittosquads, common Stallbuilds and it even found its way on Balance and some offense Builds as a cushion to fall back on.
2) Toxapex has Shed Shell, which makes trapping Pex very difficult with Dugtrio. You can still use Z-Bug Buzz over Z-Psychic if you support your Dugtrio with something like Knock Off Torn-T or Knock Off Clefable, but this is obviously another factor you did not have to consider during SPL meta.
3) Ditto himself. The rising usage of Ditto discouarges setting up in general and Ditto revengekills unless you have Firium Z (a Set that is extremly hard to justify these days).
4) Decreasing usage and viablity of mons Volcarona loves to take advantage off (Mew, Tangrowth).
5) Mega Diancie. Diancie can revengekill Volcarona because it can just stay in regular, eat the Giga Drain and Diamond Storm for the OHKO.
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Diancie: 198-234 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I admit, it is a very shacky check but it works on offensive teams. Volcarona will prob not find oppurtinies to setup twice.
6) Rise of Birdspam and increasing popularity for Dragonite for example. Those teams have an HO lead that gets up Rocks very early. If you Defog you might lose because of the offensive nature and Volcarona often enough will be a sitting duck. It can setup on Bolt Beam Magearna though, but even then there is so much priority (Sneak, Espeed, Quick Attack). Even other HO teams just have to keep their Mimikyu if they otherwise lose to Volcarona and Mimikyu is literally on every HO team.
7) Mega Scizor viability shift for its SD Set. Usually Mega Scizor is used as Defogger (still is) but with SD being much more viable, Volcarona loses another target he can setup on without taking any damage. +2 BP 2HKOs so you cannot switch in and click Quiver Dance.
8) Volcarona usage. Saying usage does not matter for viability is a plain lie. It does but it should not be used as a sole reason for a drop and fact is, Volcarona has very little usage right now.
9) Outclassed as a straightup-attacker by other mons. While Volcarona does not have to setup to be a threat, why use it then over something like Specs Lele or something more comparable, Specs Chandelure who has proven to be one of the most reliable breakers in the tier?
Some replays with Diggersby in action:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-624251808
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-624237843
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-624222186
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Deleted User 400951
Banned deucer.
I'm gonna chime in on Volcarona. A while back, I was vehemently against it, and in spite of some meta trends favoring it - Celes/Pex/Venu is troubled by the Psychium Z set, and entry hazard removal is really good rn with the rise of Latias-Mega - I believe it's time for a drop. Offensively, yes, it still is very versatile. However, current teams are beginning to adapt to it. People have finally realized that >100 base scarfmons are not the best way to deal with it. In addition to what Robopoke had said, there are some more meta trends hurting it:
- Mantine, I'm noticing, is becoming more commonplace, even with Zard Y falling off (btw there is no way this thing should fall to B+, it's an absolutely horrifying wallbreaker and it still poses a huge threat to balance/stall). This just straight-up walls Volcarona.
- Scarf Kartana is becoming the more popular set, and while it supports Volc with Defog, it also KOes with Aerial Ace.
- The rise of Heatran. This thing hard walls Volcarona without HP Ground, which is losing usage as Bug Buzz and Psychic are gaining its place. Dugtrio can trap, yes, but Bulu is normally paired with Heatran, making that EQ rather weak.
Volcarona can still end games on its own, yes, but I feel that the rise of balance and stall teams that beat it, along with offense still not letting its guard down against it, means that it no longer has the prowess of other A+ mons and should subsequently drop.
- Mantine, I'm noticing, is becoming more commonplace, even with Zard Y falling off (btw there is no way this thing should fall to B+, it's an absolutely horrifying wallbreaker and it still poses a huge threat to balance/stall). This just straight-up walls Volcarona.
- Scarf Kartana is becoming the more popular set, and while it supports Volc with Defog, it also KOes with Aerial Ace.
- The rise of Heatran. This thing hard walls Volcarona without HP Ground, which is losing usage as Bug Buzz and Psychic are gaining its place. Dugtrio can trap, yes, but Bulu is normally paired with Heatran, making that EQ rather weak.
Volcarona can still end games on its own, yes, but I feel that the rise of balance and stall teams that beat it, along with offense still not letting its guard down against it, means that it no longer has the prowess of other A+ mons and should subsequently drop.
I dont agree with any of this. Volc has been an A+ mon since quite a while. And no meta trend has really changed against Volc. Tran was always an issue, Tran has always been an overused OU mon in the tier. Thats why a lot have been running hp ground to kill it after a boost i believe. Scarf Kartana does not ohko it with AA. Also, Kartana has been around ever since its arrival. Check up the calc. Even at Adamant nature, u got 0% of killing it. If u factor in the bulky Volcs, Kartana is not the mon u can rely to prevent Volc sweeps. Mantine is a danger but so is it a very defensive and extremely passive mon. There are many ways of pressuring it and finishing it off with a z move of sorts after 1 or two prior boosts. Also, Mantine is not a viable mon of high ranked teams. It relies too much on matchup. Building a team around Volc dont need to worry about the odd teams that carry around a mantine when there are much better options than the job mantine is supposed to do.
Counter-Arguments:
1) Chansey has been around since the start of S/M OU. Why is this an argument against it now? Chansey is a real obvious switch to a volc, allowing u to freely double and hurt ur opponent for making such a play. Those switch ins loses too much momentum for ur opponent as u play it correctly. Also, no one is gonna set up when theres a healthy chansey around. Weaken it and leave Volc do what it does best, which is cleaning up the game.
2) Volcs tendency to carry around z move psychic makes tox not much of a problem after a single dance.
3) I agree this has weaken Volc's ability to sweep. But if u can set up rocks and break its sash, duggy cant revenge kill it. Unless, Volc has just danced up once and u carry the rare scarfed duggy.
4) Altho those mons have dropped, they are still fairly common in OU and are free set up bait for Volc. Also, Volc has been A+ before the rise of those 2 mons, namely Mew.
5) Mega Diancie isnt a counter. Diancie, regular form, is a rather weak mon. A Volc player will simply wait untill u mega evolve or if hes sure it can dance up twice to guarantee the ohko.
6) I agree but alot of mons struggle with this type of team. These Njnp teams (are they?) are some of the best teams in the OU tier and you will see alot of them in the high ladder (1900-2000+).
7) How is M scizor a counter or an argument for its drop. No scizors will stay in if they do to bp, that allows volc to freely set up and ohko with a fire move. How does M-Sciz get to +2 in front of a Volc?
8) This doesnt mean anything agaisnt Volc. Its just a really hard mon to fit into a team as it relies heavily on team members before sweeping. It needs a trapper (Duggy) to kill things like Tran, Chansey, as well as a defogger.
9) Only lele is a better wallbreaker but those mons are locked it whereas Volc wont have to be. The rise of dark type mons, such as Mega Ttar, and the greninjas prevents Lele from spamming Psychic. At +2, no greninjas can check Volc.
You cant say it deserves to drop than say it can be an A+ mon. You also didnt explain what trends have made it less viable. What checks are on an all time high? And, if im thinking the ones you thought, they have been around for quite some time and yet Volc was still an A+ mon.
I just dont see why now it deserves a drop when all of these weaknesses have been around for a very long time. Every mon has a weakness. You guys pointed out its faults but its strengths are far too strong and worthy of an A+ mon. It is one of the most dangerous sweepers. It carries around a wide selection of move sets. It can carry around hp ground, hp ice, Fire Blast, Bug Buzz, Psychic, Giga Drain, along with z moves. Its far too hard to contain this mon. You cant scout out its moves, cuz if u do u lose to it dancing up. Whenever you see an opposling Volc, you know you gotta play the game entirely different, just like when u play a Duggy squad.
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Thanks for answering to every point.
1) Chansey in the last cycles of OLT has increased in usage because there is just soo much to cover in the SM OU metagame, where Chansey helps teambuilding. You will see Dittosquads with Mega Medicham and Zygarde that have a Chansey or other bulky offense Squads tat have a random Chansey on them. It is already getting ridicilous srs. It just an all around answer to threats from Diancie to Zapdos to Kingdra to Magearna with access to Stealth Rock and tools like Skill Swap (which goes through Sub) to escape Dugtrio and it also helps vs Serperior Contrary and Hawlucha trying to SD on you, just to lose the Speedboost from Unburden to get revengekilled by Ditto (these are situations I actually saw happening).
2) This argument was a rhetoric way to say that Z-Psychic should be the only Set to use which cuts into the viability imo.
3) I said Ditto, not Dugtrio bro ^^ I can kinda understand you, both are nasty
4) Mew is still very common but you do not see Tangrowth that much these days. Tangrowth just gives too many threats free setup/switch-ins, is weak to all form of hazards (Dual Hazards Taunt Gren anyone?) which is the reason it dropped. But on the other hand Ferrothorn is used much more so you can ignore this point if you want for Volcarona having fewer mons to setup on.
5) Diancie is not a counter, of course not. But it is a check and most Volcarona teams are pressured to keep of hazards so it is a realistic assumption to not have Rocks on your Side. Thus Diancie can be used to check Volcarona, even if Volcarona is at +1.
6) They are not only njnp teams but yea, those teams are very fast paced and give Volcarona no air to breath. Volcarona is not fast, bulky and strong enough. The teams it can actually find oppurtinies to get off a free Quiver Dance have consistent countermeasures. Chansey, Ditto or even Mega Latias.
7) Obv Mega Scizor does not counter. But with SD being viable again, Volcarona cannot switch into Mega Scizor as it SDes and afford to Quiver Dance. You have to Fire Blast because BP can 2HKO after some chip (maybe from early game U-Turn)
8) This does say alot for Volcarona. Why do u think the usage of Volcarona lately is so low? Hard to build with? Hard to sweep with? Hard to win with consistently is the answer. You can thank me later.
9) Being choicelocked if your name is Chandlure is not a big deal. Two of the current best offensive typings into one pokemon should already speak for itself.
Dont you hate it when you see that one playstyle on your opponents team and be like "ok, this and this are useless". You absolutetly cannot afford to have mons on your teams that are 100% useless unless you prepared for them via teambuilding with your teammates. Koko for example, another A+ mon is never useless. Even if your Set cannot break Ferrothorn for example, you can U-Turn as it switches in on it. Volcarona in a terrible matchup has to make a double which is ironic because you have to remove Rocks before you can afford doubling around. Why limit yourself so badly? Just use mons like Specs Lele and see resists taking 45%+ to sweep with Scarf Kartana, no setupmove required.
Also Kartana needs to rise, but I am too lazy to provide the reasons rn.
1) Chansey in the last cycles of OLT has increased in usage because there is just soo much to cover in the SM OU metagame, where Chansey helps teambuilding. You will see Dittosquads with Mega Medicham and Zygarde that have a Chansey or other bulky offense Squads tat have a random Chansey on them. It is already getting ridicilous srs. It just an all around answer to threats from Diancie to Zapdos to Kingdra to Magearna with access to Stealth Rock and tools like Skill Swap (which goes through Sub) to escape Dugtrio and it also helps vs Serperior Contrary and Hawlucha trying to SD on you, just to lose the Speedboost from Unburden to get revengekilled by Ditto (these are situations I actually saw happening).
2) This argument was a rhetoric way to say that Z-Psychic should be the only Set to use which cuts into the viability imo.
3) I said Ditto, not Dugtrio bro ^^ I can kinda understand you, both are nasty
4) Mew is still very common but you do not see Tangrowth that much these days. Tangrowth just gives too many threats free setup/switch-ins, is weak to all form of hazards (Dual Hazards Taunt Gren anyone?) which is the reason it dropped. But on the other hand Ferrothorn is used much more so you can ignore this point if you want for Volcarona having fewer mons to setup on.
5) Diancie is not a counter, of course not. But it is a check and most Volcarona teams are pressured to keep of hazards so it is a realistic assumption to not have Rocks on your Side. Thus Diancie can be used to check Volcarona, even if Volcarona is at +1.
6) They are not only njnp teams but yea, those teams are very fast paced and give Volcarona no air to breath. Volcarona is not fast, bulky and strong enough. The teams it can actually find oppurtinies to get off a free Quiver Dance have consistent countermeasures. Chansey, Ditto or even Mega Latias.
7) Obv Mega Scizor does not counter. But with SD being viable again, Volcarona cannot switch into Mega Scizor as it SDes and afford to Quiver Dance. You have to Fire Blast because BP can 2HKO after some chip (maybe from early game U-Turn)
8) This does say alot for Volcarona. Why do u think the usage of Volcarona lately is so low? Hard to build with? Hard to sweep with? Hard to win with consistently is the answer. You can thank me later.
9) Being choicelocked if your name is Chandlure is not a big deal. Two of the current best offensive typings into one pokemon should already speak for itself.
Dont you hate it when you see that one playstyle on your opponents team and be like "ok, this and this are useless". You absolutetly cannot afford to have mons on your teams that are 100% useless unless you prepared for them via teambuilding with your teammates. Koko for example, another A+ mon is never useless. Even if your Set cannot break Ferrothorn for example, you can U-Turn as it switches in on it. Volcarona in a terrible matchup has to make a double which is ironic because you have to remove Rocks before you can afford doubling around. Why limit yourself so badly? Just use mons like Specs Lele and see resists taking 45%+ to sweep with Scarf Kartana, no setupmove required.
Also Kartana needs to rise, but I am too lazy to provide the reasons rn.
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Deleted User 400951
Banned deucer.
Yes, Tran was always an issue, but it's beginning to become more and more of one. Psychicium Z is its only hope vs Pex/Celes/Venu, yet in that it gives up HP Ground as Giga Drain is pretty much a must on it. Tran's usage is increasing btw, so that is a change as it is on more teams. Kartana does around 78-90% on it, which means that with a bit of chip, it will revenge kill. Don't mention Bulky Volc - that's really fallen off and I haven't seen one in forever. In addition, Mantine is still viable in upper-tier play and while it is MU reliant, it makes certain matchups unwinnable for Volcarona. You're not breaking past it:
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 240 HP / 72+ SpD Mantine: 189-223 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's not enough. The strongest move Volcarona otherwise has against it is Fire Blast (yes it is in fact more powerful than Giga Drain vs it), which 5HKOes against Mantine. At +2, Haze can get rid of all of Volcarona's boosts, while Scald does around 44.3-52.7% to it. This is all in addition to what robopoke has pointed out.
1) I still dont see how Chansey works against a drop. I understand ur reasoning but here's why I just dont agree. Volc was ranked an A+ mon for quite some time and I remember one point in the meta where every single team had a chansey, like literally, on stall, on balance and on offense. The past rise of Growth and recent surge of Mew have decreased this mon's usage as they both are more offensive and less passive. But the point is even when Chansey was everywhere, on every single team, Volc still was an A+ mon. So why would it drop now? Back then I dont believe trapping Chansey was a thing. Now, Duggy traps it with ease and kills it. And now we have so many physical wallbreakers thru the release of the stones.
3) My bad. I actually read Duggtrio. Altho, ditto is a problem to Volc, so is a problem to all sweepers. Should Mag drop bcuz off Ditto? Also I dont think there has been a surge in Dittos to call it the rise of ditto. Its been used sparingly here and there.
8) Or it just fits hard onto teams and is not a mon that can switch into any mons asides the passive threats. It also requires alot of skill to use it. You will see alot of players in the mid ladder start setting up with its volc as soon as possible, on rocks and without scouting for the scarfers, or any consideration for its wallers. It fails to sweep and people stop using it. Im more interested in whether there has been a decrease in Volc usage among the higher ladder, 1900-2000+, with 1800s being acceptable.
9) Chandelure wont enjoy being locked into any of its stabs when Ttar comes out and either starts setting up or pursuits it.
Personally an A+ mon has to be a game breaker and currently Volc does that really well.
As for ur last section. A mon is never useless, they can be treated as sack fodder. But then again Volc might be useless in certain matchups but so will other mons be useless. If tran is an A+ and is extremely limited by Duggy, how is Volc any different?
Volc, like all other mons, can only carry 4 moves, meaning whichever moves it selects, it will be exposed to other mons. Its like that every mon and esp for the sweepers. Lets take Mag for example. If it carries the beambolt set it cant hit tran for any damage nor can it ohko certain offensive mons like Lele unless it has calm minded a bunch of times. Mag can run Focus blast, Ice beam and tbolt but then its weak to mons like Mew. I mean it all depends on the set u choose, if u run a certain set then a good player will have others mon to kill those that walls his sweeper.
Volc has counters, so does every sweeper. That will never change in pokemon. If it does it will go straight to Ubers.
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So I know this thing just recently rose, but I still feel it's ranked too low.
Aside from checking what we already know (Magearna, Celesteela, A-Gren, Heatran, Koko, non-Toxic Toxapex, non-Drain Volcarona, Zapdos, Magnezone, Rain in general, ...) it now has 2 new things to check/counter: Mega-Carbink and Mega-Latias. M-Diancie has literally no way of hurting it without the odd Nature Power Grass and +1 CM Stored Power M-Lati is barely able to 4HKO after rocks, so Gastro can always switch in and Toxic it. Same story for Reflect Type except it gets walled even harder.
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 240-283 (56.3 - 66.4%)
248 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 148-175 (34.7 - 41%)
8 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gastrodon: 111-131 (26 - 30.7%)
+1 8 SpA Latias-Mega Stored Power (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 108-127 (25.3 - 29.8%) -- 21.9% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
248 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 148-175 (34.7 - 41%)
8 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gastrodon: 111-131 (26 - 30.7%)
+1 8 SpA Latias-Mega Stored Power (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 108-127 (25.3 - 29.8%) -- 21.9% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
It's kinda absurd that a mon that checks or straight up walls such a huge portion of OU's biggest and most common threats is only B. I believe Gastrodon would fit much better in B+ being (IMO) as viable as Mantine and Fini and more viable than Amoonguss, M-Hera and Torn-T, who all are B+ as well. And it's definitely better than R-Wash, Thundurus, Reuniclus and most of the other stuff in B that only have very narrow niches in this meta.
I agree that it's pretty damn passive aside from Toxic and Scald burns (though at +1 after Storm Drain it can actually deal some decent damage), but that's why I only nom it for B+ and not like A-. It just does the thing you expect it to do perfectly.
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There is a slight misunderstanding on your part. Magearna has no counters from teampreview because of the multiple options it has. It can even run something like Iron Head or Pain Split and Chansey does not counter anymore. Z-Focus Blast for Steels, Gigavolt for Waters/Flying-Types etc. or Z-Fleur Cannon to kill offensive resists after rocks or to just get the Soul Heart going or even Ghostium Z for Jirachi.
Volcarona did adapt to the metagame quite well. From Firium Z to people thinking Toxapex is safe just for Psychinium Z to blow that mon away. But no matter what moves it tries to run, there are dead matchups. Chansey, Rain, Trick Room, hazard spam HO to name a few or when your Defogger loses against your Rocker. But Magearna is S anyway and they are not very comparable but having no counters is not an argument anymore for Ubers, as long as checking it is not too difficult.
The question is not if Volcarona as a mon can win games. The question is how consistent and how often it does so. With all the points given, it should be obvious that it is less likely to sweep with Volcarona today than during SPL meta. What is the big deal with Volcarona dropping? I also read Gary stating, that the council is 50/50 with Volcarona dropping. Could be interesting to read the arguments who support Volcarona staying A+ and if they honestly used Volcarona in any Cycle of OLT successfully.
Logically speaking: If a mon closes games that easily, then wouldnt everyone use it? There are legitimate reasons to ladder up (OLT) and look at these A+ mons:
Dugtrio, Ferro, Grens, Heatran, Koko, Pex, Volcarona. Click this link and STRG-F all the A+ mons. You will find a team with them or them being mentioned multiple times from different posts. Being mentioned alot in a recent thread about the ladder can be used as a metric to know the current relevance of a pokemon. I will count for you:
Dugtrio: 8 times
Ferrothorn: 3 times
Greninja: 14 times
Heatran: 3 times
Koko: 10 times
Toxapex: 11 times
Volcarona: 1 time (and 0% usage in any teams posted)
The only time Volcarona was mentioned is here:
"Uses Scarf Lando-T so its a bit weak to fast things like Volc, but Volc has been extremely uncommon during OLT so far, maybe we'll see a rise in it soon with all these <100 Scarfer teams."
As you can see people are already disrespecting Volcarona by not preparing anymore. Obv there is alot to prepare for and you will usually focus on USED threats like Magearna, Koko, Greninja, Landorus-T, Rainteams etc..
Volcarona did adapt to the metagame quite well. From Firium Z to people thinking Toxapex is safe just for Psychinium Z to blow that mon away. But no matter what moves it tries to run, there are dead matchups. Chansey, Rain, Trick Room, hazard spam HO to name a few or when your Defogger loses against your Rocker. But Magearna is S anyway and they are not very comparable but having no counters is not an argument anymore for Ubers, as long as checking it is not too difficult.
The question is not if Volcarona as a mon can win games. The question is how consistent and how often it does so. With all the points given, it should be obvious that it is less likely to sweep with Volcarona today than during SPL meta. What is the big deal with Volcarona dropping? I also read Gary stating, that the council is 50/50 with Volcarona dropping. Could be interesting to read the arguments who support Volcarona staying A+ and if they honestly used Volcarona in any Cycle of OLT successfully.
Logically speaking: If a mon closes games that easily, then wouldnt everyone use it? There are legitimate reasons to ladder up (OLT) and look at these A+ mons:
Dugtrio, Ferro, Grens, Heatran, Koko, Pex, Volcarona. Click this link and STRG-F all the A+ mons. You will find a team with them or them being mentioned multiple times from different posts. Being mentioned alot in a recent thread about the ladder can be used as a metric to know the current relevance of a pokemon. I will count for you:
Dugtrio: 8 times
Ferrothorn: 3 times
Greninja: 14 times
Heatran: 3 times
Koko: 10 times
Toxapex: 11 times
Volcarona: 1 time (and 0% usage in any teams posted)
The only time Volcarona was mentioned is here:
"Uses Scarf Lando-T so its a bit weak to fast things like Volc, but Volc has been extremely uncommon during OLT so far, maybe we'll see a rise in it soon with all these <100 Scarfer teams."
As you can see people are already disrespecting Volcarona by not preparing anymore. Obv there is alot to prepare for and you will usually focus on USED threats like Magearna, Koko, Greninja, Landorus-T, Rainteams etc..
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I would like to nominate a mon by myself, which isn't in the current slate but... I think it could be a good point of discussion
to A-
I'm making this because of how beneficial is for Kartana the current influx of Aurora Veil HO in the ladder, making its Choice Scarf set a pain in the ass for this teams to deal. Being able to OHKO A-Ninetales, as well as 2HKO common mons in this archetype such as Suicune, Manaphy, and wear down other stuff like Zygarde and M-Pinsir. Also, it could run the classic SD/Fightinium Z set, making it somewhat unpredictable; this set also can put high pressure in CelePexTang core, but struggling more with VenuPexSteela. However, IMO, A- rank is a great reflect of how good Kartana is doing in the current metagame.
I'm making this because of how beneficial is for Kartana the current influx of Aurora Veil HO in the ladder, making its Choice Scarf set a pain in the ass for this teams to deal. Being able to OHKO A-Ninetales, as well as 2HKO common mons in this archetype such as Suicune, Manaphy, and wear down other stuff like Zygarde and M-Pinsir. Also, it could run the classic SD/Fightinium Z set, making it somewhat unpredictable; this set also can put high pressure in CelePexTang core, but struggling more with VenuPexSteela. However, IMO, A- rank is a great reflect of how good Kartana is doing in the current metagame.
It's been I long time since I have posted in thread, so my arguments could be a little rusty, and sorry about this not being in the discussion slate. However, I think it is about time that Chansey should seriously go to A.
The overall viability has been reflected on its usage in the OTL and its overall good winrates. We all know what Chansey does right, so there is no need to say anything except that Chansey is a huge fat pink blob that is the answer to so many threatening things in the tier, and it should now be quite obvious that it does its job consistently. A couple of pages back, it was in the discussion slate, but the council decided it wasn't time yet. After seeing how changed the metagame is compared to a few weeks back, I think that it now at least deserves to be considered.
Sorry for the quick and lousy arguments, but I honestly don't think that there more to that I have to say at these point, as we all know how good chansey is.
Conclusion= Chansey A- to A
The overall viability has been reflected on its usage in the OTL and its overall good winrates. We all know what Chansey does right, so there is no need to say anything except that Chansey is a huge fat pink blob that is the answer to so many threatening things in the tier, and it should now be quite obvious that it does its job consistently. A couple of pages back, it was in the discussion slate, but the council decided it wasn't time yet. After seeing how changed the metagame is compared to a few weeks back, I think that it now at least deserves to be considered.
Sorry for the quick and lousy arguments, but I honestly don't think that there more to that I have to say at these point, as we all know how good chansey is.
Conclusion= Chansey A- to A
I have been meaning to make this nomination for a while, but I think I forgot about it.
I think Buzzwole should go to c- or UR. There is basically no reason to use it. It can't check ground types reliably at all due to landorus with SSSS, Zygarde and Garchomp with Devastating drake. New bird spam teams is simply awful, with that 4x weakness. If running earthquake, Buzzwole gives landorus t free setup on veil, if running poison jab, Toxapex comes in for free and starts firing tspikes.
Conclusion:
Buzzwole is deadweight against stall.
Buzzwole is easily pressured by offense.
Buzzwole is easily walled by balance.
Buzzwole is forced out by Bird Spam.
Buzzwole also gives Landorus t free setup on veil if not running ice punch, Or magearna if not running earthquake if behind veil, which is not very difficult, especially with Buzzwole a low spd and speed.
Buzzwole: C to C- or UR
I think Buzzwole should go to c- or UR. There is basically no reason to use it. It can't check ground types reliably at all due to landorus with SSSS, Zygarde and Garchomp with Devastating drake. New bird spam teams is simply awful, with that 4x weakness. If running earthquake, Buzzwole gives landorus t free setup on veil, if running poison jab, Toxapex comes in for free and starts firing tspikes.
Conclusion:
Buzzwole is deadweight against stall.
Buzzwole is easily pressured by offense.
Buzzwole is easily walled by balance.
Buzzwole is forced out by Bird Spam.
Buzzwole also gives Landorus t free setup on veil if not running ice punch, Or magearna if not running earthquake if behind veil, which is not very difficult, especially with Buzzwole a low spd and speed.
Buzzwole: C to C- or UR
I was gonna bring that up with my Slowbro downgrade nom and forgot, thanks for bringing this up.
Buzzwole thrives when stuff like Bisharp, non-SSS Landorus-T, and Tyranitar (i.e. physical Dark and Rock types) are really common. Unfortunately the meta is just really awful for Buzzwole.
Offensively, Buzzwole has decent coverage but it just doesn't hit hard enough and isn't fast enough. Yea, you can run a Z-move but there are many better users. You can run Band, but being locked into EQ or Superpower/Hammer Arm is not great at all even though it hits fairly hard. Sub Punch is okay but you're still walled by something depending on the situation (usually Mantine/Toxapex).
In addition to everything mentioned here, Buzzwole's matchup against rain is awful. Low SpDef means that it gets blown away by any rain-boosted Special attack, and being slow as hell doesn't do any favors either. Mega Diance eats Buzzwole alive (and can even switch into it, though that's not recommended) too, as do Mega Altaria (uncommon as hell) and Mega Latias which just uses Buzzwole as setup fodder (or Defog fodder)
Not against dropping, but against unranking:
Buzzwole is not deadweight against Stall at all with Sub, Focus Punch, Earthquake, Poison Jab.
MSab Stall:
Focus Punch for Chansey and Skarmory, Pjab for Clef and Mega Sab Poison, Earthquake for Pex and Mega Sab
You get a free Sub against everything except Dugtrio (coz of Toxic) and Clefable thanks to Substitute.
I used it like half a year ago and stalls way to deal with this is PPstalling Buzzwole and saving as many Recovers on Pex as possible by making ballsy plays like predicting your Earthquake and going to Skarmory while hoping you do not hard Poison Jab on a Clefable pivot. Otherwise you PPstall Recovers easily with 32 PP Focus Punch and some Earthquakes here and there.
Against other matchups it definitely struggles because even with its amazing physical bulk it is very easy to check because of the nonexistent speed. I think the highlight of Buzzwole was Baton Pass metagame with fat Bulk Up, BoltBeam, Earthquake. I really miss those times x_x
Buzzwole is not deadweight against Stall at all with Sub, Focus Punch, Earthquake, Poison Jab.
MSab Stall:
Focus Punch for Chansey and Skarmory, Pjab for Clef and Mega Sab Poison, Earthquake for Pex and Mega Sab
You get a free Sub against everything except Dugtrio (coz of Toxic) and Clefable thanks to Substitute.
I used it like half a year ago and stalls way to deal with this is PPstalling Buzzwole and saving as many Recovers on Pex as possible by making ballsy plays like predicting your Earthquake and going to Skarmory while hoping you do not hard Poison Jab on a Clefable pivot. Otherwise you PPstall Recovers easily with 32 PP Focus Punch and some Earthquakes here and there.
Against other matchups it definitely struggles because even with its amazing physical bulk it is very easy to check because of the nonexistent speed. I think the highlight of Buzzwole was Baton Pass metagame with fat Bulk Up, BoltBeam, Earthquake. I really miss those times x_x
Lack of viability can also be seen in tournament results. Unless I missed some games, Buzzwole almost never showed up. I don't actually remember seeing a game with it recent official tourneys. Like you guys have said, it just doesn't have enough favorable matchups to be much more than a cellar-dweller in OU right now. Not unranked, but C- I can definitely get behind.
I disagree w/ droppping swole as a whole, but this point in particular is just objectively false. While I concede this is somewhat outdated, looking at wcop usage stats ( the most recent tourney that records usage stats unless I've forgotten something, keep in mind this was written before smog tour starts), buzzwole was used twice, winning both times. The only mons in c used more in that tour were kyurem, nihilego, thundy t and cress, all w/ a negative w/l ratio, in fact, buzzwole won the most wcop games in c (equal with nihilego and kyreum). Barring shuckle (which shouldn't be used now bc diancie), which had equal usage, it was used more than every mon in c-. Looking at a more recent tour, olt, only mons in c or c- that have actually been used there are cress, uxie, crawdaunt, gliscor and crawdaunt. ofc it doesn't see much usage, but compared to other mons in c, its towards the middle of the pack.
Usage aside, I still think swole should stay in c. People fail to realise just how much this mon checks, while not inviting *too much* in for free, and most of what it does invite is fairly passive. Just looking through s to b, here are all the mons it checks. A lot of mons it checks (kart, lop, weavile, drill, have rose in popularity recently, whereas mons like zard y have dropped, which is also cool for it.
- Ferrothorn
- Z charge koko ( only if roost and requires scouting, so it's more of a set dependent check)
- Zygarde
- Garchomp (again, set dependent, chomp can't do anything if it's scarf, for sd+sr dragonium if it goes for any move besides sd on the switch you beat it).
- Tang
- Bulu
- Ttar + mega tar
- Bisharp
- Kartana
- Pert ( doesn't check w/ the 0 hp 0 def spread but I usually run a fatter spread to cushion hits from mons like pert)
- Lop
- Weavile
- Exca
- Hoopa
- Jirachi
- Mamoswine
- Terrakion
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Hello.
We are not moving Dugtrio to S rank at this point in time or at any point in the near future. Stop posting about it.
Dugtrio clearly is a good Pokemon in the current metagame and the ability to trap an expanded pool of Pokemon is not something that we are neglecting in our decision. It is just that Dugtrio itself is a shitty Pokemon with a godsend of an ability slapped on and it is nowhere near as metagame defining as the other top Pokemon (just look at the post above -- it all ties into a general archetype or things that stem off of the impacts of others). Being potentially banworthy and unhealthy does not correlate to being S rank -- there are many other, more important facets of a Pokemon that define overall viability and you can see those presented in the well thought out arguments for just about any other Pokemon in this thread.
Goodbye.
We are not moving Dugtrio to S rank at this point in time or at any point in the near future. Stop posting about it.
Dugtrio clearly is a good Pokemon in the current metagame and the ability to trap an expanded pool of Pokemon is not something that we are neglecting in our decision. It is just that Dugtrio itself is a shitty Pokemon with a godsend of an ability slapped on and it is nowhere near as metagame defining as the other top Pokemon (just look at the post above -- it all ties into a general archetype or things that stem off of the impacts of others). Being potentially banworthy and unhealthy does not correlate to being S rank -- there are many other, more important facets of a Pokemon that define overall viability and you can see those presented in the well thought out arguments for just about any other Pokemon in this thread.
Goodbye.
unfortunately i think you are missing something. what has changed for dugtrio? what's made it better? all this post does is state dugtrio's role, like we know it traps tapu lele. if anything dugtrio has gotten less effective because of all the teambuilding tricks you mentioned, that argument would be better off if you were arguing for dugtrio to be banned due to its effect on teambuilding.
don't let this discourage you though; i think your arguments are good, you were just arguing for the wrong thing in the context of the vr
Deleted User 400951
Banned deucer.
The difference is that if Volcarona doesn't carry a certain move, it's downright useless in a matchup. Without Z-Psychic, it's useless against balance. Without HP Ground, it needs a Dugtrio. Without HP Ice, it struggles vs the up-and-coming Dragonite, and by extension, bird spam. Without Giga Drain, the rising Manaphy exploits it. Dugtrio used to be able to solve some of these problems, but it's become ineffective vs many of the threats that Volcarona wants gone and is useless vs bird spam. It's not as simple as using other mons to get rid of those threats because by the time you're done with that, not only will your entire team be built around Volcarona, it still won't consistently win with all the threats in this meta and all the teams that Volcarona handles. Compare this to Magearna. It's never useless in a matchup, and can almost always find a way to sweep vs any team. The same can almost be said about Zygarde, which I've found to more consistently sweep in this meta. As robopoke said, consistency and frequency in sweeping is what matters, and Volcarona has lost both traits to the extent that I believe it's a much better fit in A. robopoke also pointed out its declining influence, which is rather important for an A+ mon to keep their rank.
Bisharp should drop to B rank.
Right now Bisharp doesn't really seem like a great pick in the current meta. The playstyle Bisharp fits best on, Webs, has died down quite a bit over the past couple of months because other HO playstyles like webs and birdspam are a lot more popular and consistent. In addition, Bisharp's checks and counters are still prevalent if not getting more popular. Mega Scizor, Skarmory, Mega Lopunny, Mega Swampert, Zygarde, Ash-Greninja, (and regular Greninja too) Tapu Lele, Toxapex, Tapu Koko, Heatran, Hippowdon, Keldeo, etc, all still get good usage, and some like Hippowdon and Mega Scizor are rising in popularity, while mons like Zygarde and Toxapex have always been top Pokemon in the tier. I just don't think Bisharp can thrive in a metagame that's as prepared for it as right now, compared to the beginning and middles of the generation when Webs was a dominant playstyle. I don't really see any metagame trends going in favor of Bisharp either outside of Mega Latias getting released and Latios getting more popular, but in my opinion these don't really outweigh the negatives that are going against Bisharp and it doesn't seem to fit with better, more popular Pokemon like Mega Swampert, Kartana, and Mega Latias.
Right now Bisharp doesn't really seem like a great pick in the current meta. The playstyle Bisharp fits best on, Webs, has died down quite a bit over the past couple of months because other HO playstyles like webs and birdspam are a lot more popular and consistent. In addition, Bisharp's checks and counters are still prevalent if not getting more popular. Mega Scizor, Skarmory, Mega Lopunny, Mega Swampert, Zygarde, Ash-Greninja, (and regular Greninja too) Tapu Lele, Toxapex, Tapu Koko, Heatran, Hippowdon, Keldeo, etc, all still get good usage, and some like Hippowdon and Mega Scizor are rising in popularity, while mons like Zygarde and Toxapex have always been top Pokemon in the tier. I just don't think Bisharp can thrive in a metagame that's as prepared for it as right now, compared to the beginning and middles of the generation when Webs was a dominant playstyle. I don't really see any metagame trends going in favor of Bisharp either outside of Mega Latias getting released and Latios getting more popular, but in my opinion these don't really outweigh the negatives that are going against Bisharp and it doesn't seem to fit with better, more popular Pokemon like Mega Swampert, Kartana, and Mega Latias.
Deleted User 400951
Banned deucer.
OMG I've been saying this for weeks now! Bisharp simply isn't good in this current meta. In addition to Webs falling off, Aurora Veil has fallen out. While it can really manhandle Pex/Celes/Venu rather well, it's simply dying vs anything else. Bird spam isn't a favorable matchup for it, as there's plenty of super effective coverage against it and it's not able to do much back. Dual Defog stall also isn't a great matchup, as there are resists to both of its STABs on the team, in addition to Dugtrio trapping and killing it. Lele is getting better, and it kills with Focus Blast or even Moonblast due to Psychic Terrain blocking Sucker. Kyurem-Black is rising and it forces a 50-50 with Sharp - either click Sucker and die if they roost or click Iron Head and die if they clicks Earth Power. I have to go rn but I'm gonna finish writing up this post later.
Enough. Just because one person wants to troll doesn't mean you should all respond to them and derail the whole thread.
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