np: UU - A New Beginning

Status
Not open for further replies.
+1 Drain Punch vs 68 HP Raikou: 48.72% - 57.31%

So you'll only be recovering 30% HP or so per turn. Raikou meanwhile can stall you out of your 8 pp with Substitute and Pressure. I would seriously consider Hi Jump Kick or Brick Break for that set, since you have Recover anyway.
 
This is going to sound odd, but I'm trying out a Yanma right now, with Life Orb. I'm struggling a bit finding a proper moveset (Although Protect and Bug Buzz are auto-ins) and its power is nothing to write home about, but it IS a lovely little finisher due to its speed boost. Protect on T1, and you'll outrun pretty near everything (Sans a few scarfers). Anyone have any suggestions for moves to accompany Bug Buzz? I found HP Ground to be okay to deal with weakened Steels so far, and most Poisons, but you think there are better ideas?
I tried this one around the beginning of the Underused test:

Yanma @Focus Sash
Speed Boost/Jolly
4HP/252Atk/252Spd
~ Hypnosis
~ Protect
~ U-Turn
~ Reversal/Aerial Ace

Take my word for it: don't try to run a sweeper set on Yanma, as Stealth Rock just inhibits it too much to allow that to work effectively. This right here is likely the best it has to offer compared to other fast sleepers, especially as a lead, so you should be taking advantage of it. Take pride in your STAB U-Turn, as despite coming off only 65 base Atk it's going to hit hard. With Jolly, you reach 475 Speed after a Speed Boost; see the list below for relevant threats. STAB Aerial Ace goes some ways of taking care of them, but I'd recommend Reversal as it turns Yanma's common weaknesses and low defenses into a powerful asset and a great revenge killing tool, as long as you keep it clear of Stealth Rock.

The biggest concern with Yanma is that Crobat has greater speed coming out the box, stronger STAB, Taunt for preventing rivals from setting up, and even Nasty Plot for special sweeping. Using Yanma while this guy is around is just bad, which is why I gave up on it for a while. It's all fair game if and when he's banned, though. Also, you can give Wide Lens a try if you're really scared of Hypnosis failing, but you'd be missing out on Reversal without Focus Sash to absorb possible K.Os. Replacing Protect with Endure would make up for it, but also lower Yanma's ability to revenge kill.

EDIT: Here's are some lists of relevant threats that surround Yanma's speed tier in the Underused environment (after 1 Speed Boost).

The following pokemon outspeed and threaten Yanma with a Choice Scarf. They can be deflected with Protect, though:
Froslass, Persian, Lopunny, Rapidash, Tauros, Charizard (+Speed Nature), Sceptile

The following pokemon outspeed and threaten Yanma with a 2+ Speed boost. Do not approach these setups with Yanma:
Blaziken (Agility), Kabutops (Swift Swim @Salac)
 
Honestly Yanma is just too slow and frail to be able to be used properly. The only way it can be competitive at all is with a Scarf/Focus Sash and Compundeyes Hypnosis. But with Crobat, Froslass, and Ambipom being so popular, it'll get shot down too easily. Besides, Butterfree beats it in that category anyway by getting better defences and Stun Spore.
 
I think Yanma is probably the best Bug/Flying type left, overall, save Scyther, but I don't think it's useable in a metagame where Pokemon such as Raikou, Registeel and Shaymin dominate. You can always just hope that Yanmega drops out of OU in April. :)

Maybe Yanma will have a better chance in a lower usage tier, like NU.
 
Why in the world would you Scarf a Yanma? After one turn he is as fast and doesn't have to switch out. And don't say Compoundeyes, because Butterfree.
 
Well i think Butterfree will likely be NU while Yanma would likely (as i said) not be usable in NU, so maybe in the tier below that, he will be usuable.
 
So I've been using Regigigas lately. I know it's gimmicky, but it's good enough to be a lot of fun. The set I'm running is:

Regigigas @ leftovers
252 HP / 252 Atk
Frustration
Earthquake
Substitute
Thunder Wave

Usually I set it up with some screen support from Uxie, but sometimes it sets up without that. If you can get it in on something that will switch (screen helps here) and sub, you can proceed to stall with t-wave and sub. I don't wan't to give too long of a description, but you can imagine that a pokemon with 424 max HP, 460 atk, 256 both defenses, and 236 speed can take a lot of a team out if it doesn't have steelix or a flying/levitating ghost. What makes this somewhat usable is that it can provide decent support and some damage even if you don't manage to stall out slow start.

I'm not saying this is awesome, but its fun to mess with, and with the right teammates it can still be a real pain for you opponents. I suggest using Shaymin with it, since it can come in on Steelix easily, and no team can withstand too many free Shaymin switches. Mismagius and Drifblim also crap on this set, since they are immune to your attacks and always have substitute, so having solid switch ins for them is probably a good idea.
 

dekzeh

B is for BRUTUS
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
CB Kabutops with Aqua Jet, Waterfall, Stone Edge and a filler (I'm using Stealth Rock) is a surprinsily good lead.
 
CB Kabutops with Aqua Jet, Waterfall, Stone Edge and a filler (I'm using Stealth Rock) is a surprinsily good lead.
It's not all that surprising really, given that it has the upper hand on a number of common leads, walling and threatening Crobat whilst 2HKOing Froslass with priority for starters (and resisting Ice Beam). I'm not too sure about CB though. I personally prefer to be able to switch attacks on strong priority users so that I can hit hard then finish off the turn after against faster opponents, but if you say it works well then I'm not one to argue.

Anyway, I've recently been trying out another recent recommendation in this thread: Ampharos, and it works brilliantly. Whoever it was that said it has a valuable niche in this metagame got it absolutely spot-on. You see, its key selling point (particularly over Raikou) is Static. With the likes of Crobat and Staraptor more than happy to employ a supposedly risk-free scouting method in U-turn early game, Ampharos not only gets easy switch-ins, it can also cripple said Pokemon in a way that very little else can. Works best alongside Ghosts and bulky Fighters like Hariyama, as they lure Brave Birds like no tomorrow.

Access to Focus Blast / Focus Punch and Heal Bell are two more excellent selling points over Raikou. Remember, statistically speaking, the two are very similar apart from the massive speed difference, but with bulky EVs and appropriate use of Static you barely miss the speed at all.
 
Scoopapa said:
Regigigas @ leftovers
252 HP / 252 Atk
Frustration
Earthquake
Substitute
Thunder Wave
Glad to see I'm not the only one that runs Frustration over Return =P

Lemmiwinks MkII said:
You see, its key selling point (particularly over Raikou) is Static
It could just be that Static is bugged on Shoddy that makes it so effective.
 
It could just be that Static is bugged on Shoddy that makes it so effective.
I don't think so. It doesn't activate all the time, and I've not seen any evidence of the rate being higher than 30%. Still, 30% is really high for what is essentially a bonus effect. It still makes a fantastic switch into Crobat, plus Staraptor's Brave Birds and U-turns, among other things. Even when it doesn't activate, there is always the threat that it will, which makes your opponent weary of using physical moves not called Earthquake with their fast sweepers at the risk of getting paralyzed. It works a lot better than you might think.
 
I can say for a fact that I have looked at the code for all those abilities, and can say with 100% confidence that their abilities only happen 30% of the time.

The thing is, the chance that an effect will happen after 2 attacks is 51%, so I can see why people think that the 30% is not true.
 

Legacy Raider

sharpening his claws, slowly
is a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
While I'm all for labeling them as BL suspects for closer observation, I really feel that the top level pokemon in UU sort of balance each other out to create a stable, and in my opinion enjoyable, metagame.

I've made a very rough diagram that shows how I think the top threats balance each other, sort of like an 'UU food web'.



An arrow indicates 'is beaten by'.

  1. Special Attackers such as Raikou and Shaymin.
  2. Bulky Steels such as Steelix and Registeel.
  3. Bulky Waters such as Slowbro and Milotic.
  4. Physical Attackers such as Gallade and Staraptor.

This is all very generalized, but I feel it is a somewhat accurate portrayal of how these different groups of pokemon interact with each other. We start off with the powerful special sweepers such as Raikou and Shaymin. Both are very hard to stop once they get going, get very good coverage and are bulky enough to take hits if need be (which makes them less vulnerable to priority attacks).

They are held in check by the steel types, Registeel and Steelix. They resist / are immune to their primary stabs, and can hit back with super effective attacks if need be. Basically, the damage output of the steels is greater than the special sweepers, meaning that the steels win against them.

This is where the bulky waters, primarily Slowbro and Milotic, come in. Bulky waters take little from steel stab attacks and earthquakes, don't mind paralysis all too much, and with access to reliable recovery moves will easily outstall the steels, unless of course they decide to blow up. In turn, these bulky waters are held in check by the original special sweepers, who hit them very hard with their stab attacks, and have the bulk to come in on weak surfs.

Physical attackers such as Gallade and Staraptor fit in at the bottom, being able to take out the steel types with high powered super effective hits, but are generally stopped by the bulky waters, in particular slowbro. Physical attackers are generally a lot more susceptible to status, so the waters' Thunder Waves that Shaymin can switch away and Raikou can hide from behind subs tend to cripple these physical attackers. The physical and special attackers sort of balance each other out, with neither of them being able to switch into each other, but both of them being able to revenge kill the other. Raikou can outspeed and revenge kill a weakened Gallade, whereas Gallade can take a Thunderbolt and proceed to beat a weakened Raikou. Similarly, whereas Staraptor cannot directly switch into Shaymin, it can come in after a kill and scare it off, and similarly, Shaymin can take choice locked Close Combats and force Staraptor away.

I feel that if you remove one of these key links, the rest of the chain unravels with something losing a check or counter and dominating the metagame. Once again, I know that this is a very generalized view of the UU tier, but I feel it is quite accurate for what it is. And ladder a couple of times and you'll begin to see this team pattern of 'lead / bulky water / bulky steel / physical attacker / special attacker / something else' quite a lot.

Anyway, let's hear others' opinions on this =).
 

Syberia

[custom user title]
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
They may balance each other out to an extent, but you have to consider that most likely 4 or 5 of those eight pokemon will be on nearly every UU team you see out there.
 
I agree completely with you LR, and that is one of the reasons that I nominated Milotic as a suspect. Not because "it currently walls a significant part of the metagame," because "it will wall a significant part of the metagame if we ban Raikou and Shaymin."

The last thing that I want to do is ban the top 10, throw the whole metagame into chaos again, and then have to go through the whole process again, with people screaming x is now too powerful, ban it. The last thing I want tis to get into the horrible Cleffable vs. Banded fighters war that we had in the old UU, that particrlarly is why I want Staraptor and Gallade to stay, even if they "have no clear counters" as neither does Mix Mence, SD Lucario etc...

Just to let everybody know what my current position on this is (not that you probably care, but I'd like to have my opinion heard), the only Pokemon that I am even considering banning at this point is Abomasnow, and even then I'm fighting a mental battle over "Is it because it is too straong, or simply because I don't like dealing with hail teams." I would like to see the metagame snapshots for UU by this time next month to see if UU continues to be "less centralised than OU" because if it does i will probably vote everything UU.
 

reachzero

the pastor of disaster
is a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
While I don't disagree with your chart overall, Legacy Raider, I think that Staraptor and Gallade don't really belong in the same bracket. Gallade has a huge movepool, but is limited by which one he chooses; Staraptor can destroy nearly everything with one moveset. CB Adamant Staraptor 2HKOs both Slowbro and Milotic, for example. Also, Hail Pokemon (Abomasnow, Walrein)/Rain Pokemon (Kabutops, Ludiculo)/Clefable deserve their own chart.
 

Legacy Raider

sharpening his claws, slowly
is a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Trying to think of pokemon to nominate is exactly what prompted me to post this too. I started off by nominating Staraptor and Gallade, because of our experiences with them as sweepers. Having written quite a bit on both, I suddenly came to the realisation that if they go, then taking down steels, in particular Registeel, is going to be quite a daunting prospect. So I add Registeel to the list of pokemon to be nominated, and then ask myself, what on earth is going to keep Shaymin in check then? So add Shaymin and possibly Roserade to the ban pile, and the metagame starts revolving around Raikou even more, as it is the only thing left that can take down those bulky waters. So scratch Raikou, and Milotic and Slowbro become too difficult to handle, so scratch them too. Now priority Azumarril starts to dominate with such few things left to resist its Aqua Jets....

By the time you're done with this, you're better off not having introduced anything in the first place. This is why I think I'm really going to try and limit myself in the pokemon I actually vote for BL when the time comes. I'm more than willing to nominate these guys as suspects, but I urge everyone to be a bit more reserved when the time for the banhammer comes.

EDIT: Reachzero, it's a very sketchy diagram that I've done to try and generalize. Otherwise, there are differences in every pokemon and it is very difficult to group them together. I know that Staraptor and Gallade aren't the same =) but in order to get a kind of overview of the tier I've decided to lump them together in that bracket.
 

reachzero

the pastor of disaster
is a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I really don't think the loss of Gallade and Staraptor would make bulky steels or waters terribly hard to deal with, considering the power of Fire-types like Arcanine, Moltres and Houndoom and Grass types like Roserade, Ludiculo, Sceptile and even the vastly underrated Leafeon (I have a very hard time seeing Roserade get voted BL, it just isn't fast enough, and Grass isn't a great offensive type). In other words, UU isn't really hard pressed to find things to kill Steels or Waters; Gallade, Staraptor, Raikou and Shaymin are just such paragons of those qualities that there is little reason to experiment with others.
 

Caelum

qibz official stalker
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
That's a whole lot of theorymon guys. We can't get into "x will be broken once y is banned", especially when we don't even know if y is going to be banned at all.

Maybe I need to post a more in depth explanation on how exactly this is going to work again since I don't think a lot of people are getting it yet =/.

If a,b,c keep threat d in check; however, it is realized that a,b,c are broken in the metagame and our banned and only then does d reveal itself broken. I can assure you there will be no hesitation to put d as a suspect. I mean you can get into ridiculous scenarios of this checks that and this checks that and I could probably come up with theorymon reasons to ban half of the tier based on "if x gets banned, then y is broken, then y gets banned, but then z is broken" etc etc etc. This is partially why we are examining them individually rather than as a group, to prevent this ridiculous theorymoning.
 
Maybe its just me, but out of the 8 Pokemon you listed, 5 of them appear to be excellent counters to a good sandstorm team. That might explain why sandstorm appears to be a hard team to use. GOod luck building a team week to 5 of the top pokemon.

And to add on to what caelum said, we are going to have more than one round through of this banning testing pokemon.
 


An arrow indicates 'is beaten by'.
  1. Special Attackers such as Raikou and Shaymin.
  2. Bulky Steels such as Steelix and Registeel.
  3. Bulky Waters such as Slowbro and Milotic.
  4. Physical Attackers such as Gallade and Staraptor.
.
Well you forgot to draw a huge collective arrow Pointing at Abomasnow!!


In all seriousness...i think i have to disagree with this. Pokemon such as these cant be put into general catagories.

Shaymin will ALWAYS destroy Steelix, and also can 1v1 Registeel most of the time(barring Paraflinch hax). But Shaymin can be stopped by Random pokemon, such as Staraptor and Crobat.

Raikou on the other Hand, cant be stopped by anything minus those two Steel types.

So i think Raikou and Misdreavus(to an a better degree than Shaymin) belong in the same catagory, as both are stopped by the Steels(again, to an extent because of HP fighting...)

On the other side, Gallade and Staraptor are alike only because they both know Close Combat, and are Physical Attackers. Gallade is stopped(barring prediction) by Crobat, and BulkyStaraptor as well as Slowbro. But Gallade tears through Milotic and the Steels. Staraptor is also stopped by Slowbro, but cant really do much to Steelix. Staraptor loses to random pokemon as well, while also getting hurt badly by SR.

There is another group i would add as well. Magmortar and Blaziken among other pokemon function soley(almost) as Wall Breakers, but they are easily beaten by faster sweepers.

I just think its difficult to place pokemon in a "Group" for UU, especially the suspects such as those who are quite unique to the tier.
 

Legacy Raider

sharpening his claws, slowly
is a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
That's a whole lot of theorymon guys. We can't get into "x will be broken once y is banned", especially when we don't even know if y is going to be banned at all.

Maybe I need to post a more in depth explanation on how exactly this is going to work again since I don't think a lot of people are getting it yet =/.

If a,b,c keep threat d in check; however, it is realized that a,b,c are broken in the metagame and our banned and only then does d reveal itself broken. I can assure you there will be no hesitation to put d as a suspect. I mean you can get into ridiculous scenarios of this checks that and this checks that and I could probably come up with theorymon reasons to ban half of the tier based on "if x gets banned, then y is broken, then y gets banned, but then z is broken" etc etc etc. This is partially why we are examining them individually rather than as a group, to prevent this ridiculous theorymoning.
I guess I went a bit far with the banning and counter-banning thing, but there is something I'd really like a bit of clarification on. All these BL nominations, how is it to be determined if they are deemed broken or not? Will we have like a mini-suspect test for every nomination, observing a metagame without the suspect for a couple of weeks? I assumed this is what was going to happen, but if we get more than a handful of suspects, something like 15-20 nominations, are we going to have an isolation test for all of them? I don't think it's just me who'd appreciate some clarification on this suspect test process as a whole, and since this is the UU test thread I guess it is as appropriate a place as anywhere to ask this.

EDIT: And guys please, it's a generalisation! I've posted that at least 3 times in my original post, and twice since then. All pokemon are dissimilar, so there will always be some disrepetencies when grouping them. Yes, Staraptor is hurt by SR while Gallade is not, but in order to see the tier as a whole, and really the purpose of my argument, please look past these! Uggh.
 
Do you mean that the Pokemon that the arrow is pointing to beats the Pokemon on the other side of the arrow? If that's the case, I disagree on a few points.

Neither Steelix nor Registeel is effective at stopping Shaymin, like, at all. Steelix is easily 2HKOed by Seed Flare or Earth Power. Registeel can avoid the 2HKO from Earth Power, but remember, it can't do shit in return unless it's some weird-ass Amnesia set. If it's a RestTalker, Shaymin can Seed Flare until she gets a SpD drop then go for the 2HKO. Shaymin's 100/100/100 bulk can withstand weak Seismic Tosses and Ice Punches, and she can Rest off the damage.

I'm not entirely sure, but I think Staraptor and Gallade both 2HKO the bulky waters with their CB sets, and Gallade has sufficient SpD to set up on their weak Surfs.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top