Moltres (OU Analysis)

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[Overview]

<p>Moltres is a niche Pokemon in the OU environment. On one hand, it is possibly the best Scizor counter outside Ubers. On the other, it loses half its health whenever it switches into Stealth Rock, a common battle condition. Rapid Spin support is a must when using Moltres, as the damage is just too devastating to its survivability without it. If you can keep Stealth Rock off the field, Moltres is a great asset to any team, able to counter some of the fiercest Pokemon in the metagame. All things considered, Moltres can either make or break the game, so tread with caution.</p>

[SET]
name: OU SubRoost
move 1: Flamethrower
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Roost
move 4: Toxic / Roar
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Unique typing coupled with good defenses allows Moltres to stall out many defensive Pokemon with Toxic, even in the OU metagame. Flamethrower is a reliable STAB move which hits nearly every Pokemon immune to Toxic super effectively. Roost recovers your HP in a pinch, and removes Moltres' Electric-type weakness and grants Moltres a resistance to Ice-type attacks. Substitute helps Moltres stall out attacks such as Stone Edge and also guards against status. If your team uses Toxic Spikes, Roar can replace Toxic so that you can rid yourself of annoying RestTalkers such as Gyarados and Suicune. However, you may still want to keep the status move so Moltres can better harm Pokémon not affected by Toxic Spikes, such as Gliscor.</p>

<p>A combination of Toxic, Roost, and Substitute allows Moltres to defeat walls such as Vaporeon, Blissey, and Gliscor with a little prediction. Since it resists Fighting-, Steel-, Bug-, and Fire-type attacks, Moltres is able to counter Scizor, Jirachi, Infernape (if he lacks Stone Edge), and numerous other physical attackers without many drawbacks. Scizor cannot break Moltres' Substitute with Bullet Punch, meaning Moltres can switch in (even on Stealth Rock), set up a Substitute on the likely switch, and Roost off the damage. An Adamant Lucario's Swords Danced Life Orb Close Combat will only 2HKO, so if the foe doesn't have Stone Edge, Moltres makes a good counter to Lucario as well.</p>

[Additional Comments]

<p>Moltres' biggest problem (other than Stealth Rock) is the competition it faces for a team slot. Heatran and Zapdos are two other common Toxic stall Pokemon, both possessing a Fire-type attack as well. Heatran, however, lacks reliable recovery, which Moltres has in the form of Roost. Zapdos lacks Fire-type STAB, which enables Moltres to beat the standard RestTalk Rotom-A. Zapdos can only hurt it with an unSTABed Fire-type attack or a resisted Electric-type attack. Fire-type STAB also allows Moltres to defeat Celebi and OHKO Lucario. Gliscor is immune to Thunderbolt and can Roost off Zapdos' Heat Wave without a problem, but will have some trouble stalling out Moltres, even with Taunt blocking Toxic. This is due to STAB Flamethrower having a chance to 2HKO Gliscor.</p>

<p>A Heatran locked into a move by a Choice item is walled by Moltres, not the other way around. A Specs Fire Blast does less than 50%, and Pressure burns up Fire Blast's PP faster than napalm on top of a flame. Even if Heatran comes in on a Flamethrower, Moltres can still Roost or Substitute while he attacks and Pressure the Fire Blasts away. Moltres' time will be largely focused on putting up another Substitute or Roosting, and in the lulls between these turns, it can Toxic Heatran to waste time. Moltres also beats RestTalk versions of Heatran, as they need to be damaged to Rest in the first place. Without being able to Rest, Heatran is forced to attack—almost as if he were Taunted—as Pressure slowly chokes his attacks. Since Choice Specs Heatran can't even beat Moltres, this strain of Heatran is going to do even less.</p>

<p>If Moltres is ever facing a Blissey, Moltres usually stalls Blissey out of her Seismic Toss PP with Pressure, Substitute, and Roost. Ice Beams usually don't break a Substitute, and Flamethrowers can't even in two hits. Even if Blissey has Thunderbolt, Moltres can still win, as Roost removes its Electric-type weakness while healing itself. Blissey's only chance to win is to either predict a Roost and status Moltres with Toxic, or use Calm Mind and Thunderbolt. Landing a Thunder Wave will also help, but paralysis doesn't quite stop Moltres (although getting fully paralyzed at a vital point quickly gets annoying). Vaporeon is also a great partner to Moltres as he counters Suicune and Gyarados well. Vaporeon can also pass Wish to Moltres, healing off Stealth Rock damage the very turn you switch in.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>The main thing hindering Moltres' use in OU is its 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, meaning it is stripped of nearly half of its health whenever coming in. This greatly diminishes its ability to counter Pokemon and Toxic stall effectively. A Rapid Spin user is a must whenever using Moltres. Forretress and Starmie are the best choices. Starmie resists Water-type attacks which often trouble Moltres. Forretress can set up Toxic Spikes, aiding Moltres' stalling efforts. If it doesn't have to Toxic first turn, it can set up a Substitute right away.</p>

<p>Blissey is a great Pokemon to use alongside Moltres as Blissey is able to absorb Electric-type attacks and most Water-type attacks very well. Vaporeon, Starmie, and Rotom-A don't stand a chance against the almighty Blissey. If you have a Ground-type to absorb Electric-type attacks, then Suicune makes a fabulous partner to Moltres. One of Suicune's arch nemeses is Vaporeon, whom Moltres just happens to lure very well. Swampert works rather well with Moltres as he can counter Tyranitar without a problem, as well as Choice Specs Jolteon if he lacks Hidden Power Grass.</p>

<p>A status absorber will be very helpful to Moltres, as many of the Pokemon Moltres wishes to beat often pack status moves. These Pokemon include Roserade, Celebi, Breloom, Bronzong, and even Blissey. RestTalk Machamp pairs decently with Moltres, capable of countering troublesome Tyranitar and making an excellent immediate switch into Blissey. Gyarados, although also weak to Rock-type attacks, absorbs status very well when using a RestTalk set. Intimidate also serves as an added bonus to help stop physical attacker.</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>Moltres can use Air Slash alongside Hidden Power Grass in an offensive set decently, but is outclassed by Heatran, who takes neutral damage from Stealth Rock and possesses a slightly higher Special Attack score.</p>

<p>A lead Moltres with a Choice Scarf is viable, as many of the common OU leads are weak to Fire-type attacks, but they will likely switch out anyway, leaving you in against your counter. Aerodactyl, Tyranitar, and Swampert are fairly common leads who will probably beat such a Moltres as well.</p>

<p>248 HP is preferred to simply maxing HP as it means Moltres can switch into Stealth Rock three times rather than two, which can be crucial in certain situations. Investing in Special Defense is viable as it helps you stall against weaker Surfs and Thunderbolts. 60 Speed EVs allow Moltres to outspeed 88 Speed Rotom-A, most Breloom, Adamant Scizor, and Adamant Tyranitar. 112 Speed EVs are enough to beat Jolly Tyranitar, while 160 Speed EVs with a boosting nature are enough to beat Adamant Lucario.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Bulky Water-types, as well as Blissey, do a decent job at countering Moltres, but will often get crippled in the process. Tentacruel is immune to Toxic, and thus can Surf Moltres without much fear of retaliation. The best counters to Moltres use Rest to eliminate poison damage and repeated Flamethrowers. Heatran makes a wonderful counter to Moltres <em>if</em> he has Taunt. A Taunted Moltres will always be forced to switch against Heatran or just end up activating Flash Fire. RestTalk Suicune and Gyarados can recover off Toxic damage, and also use Calm Mind and Dragon Dance, respectively, to sweep. Snorlax with Thick Fat takes next to no damage from Moltres and can use Curse to set up on it. When poison has taken its toll, he can then use Rest to recover his health. Tyranitar makes a decent switch-in to Moltres as he does not fear Flamethrower and can use Stone Edge to easily OHKO Moltres. Be wary of Pressure stalling, however. Curse Tyranitar is a wonderful counter to Moltres. The sandstorm that Tyranitar brings also greatly limits Moltres' ability to continuously stall Pokemon. Dragonite can come in on a Flamethrower, but usually fears Toxic.</p>
 
You should add j.franky's lead set. I can't find it anymore but basically Specs and Scarf Moltres work well as a lead should you want to investigate.
 
[SET]
name: Toxic Stall
move 1: Flamethrower
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Roost
move 4: Toxic / Roar
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Unique typing coupled with good defenses allows Moltres to stall out many defensive Pokemon with Toxic, even in the OU metagame. Flamethrower is a reliable STAB move, which hits nearly every Pokemon immune to Toxic super effective. Roost recovers your HP in a pinch, and removes Moltres' Electric-type weakness, as well as gives Moltres a resistance to Ice-type attacks. Substitute helps Moltres stall out attacks such as Stone Edge and also guards against status. If your team uses Toxic Spikes, Roar can replace Toxic to rid yourself of annoying RestTalkers such as Gyarados and Suicune. However, you may still want to keep the status move so Moltres can better harm Pokémon not affected by Toxic Spikes, such as Salamence and Gliscor.</p>

<p>A combination of Toxic, Roost, and Substitute allows Moltres to defeat walls such as Vaporeon, Blissey, Gliscor, Latias, et cetera with a little prediction. Since it resists Fighting-, Steel-, Bug-, and Fire-type attacks, Moltres is able to counter Scizor, Jirachi, Infernape and numerous other physical attackers without many drawbacks. Scizor cannot break Moltres' Substitute with Bullet Punch, meaning Moltres can switch in (even on Stealth Rock), set up a Substitute on the likely switch and Roost off the damage. An Adamant Swords Danced Life Orb Lucario Close Combat will only 2HKO, so if the foe doesn't have Stone Edge, Moltres makes a good counter to Lucario as well.</p>

<p>Moltres' biggest problem is the competition it faces for a team slot. Heatran and Zapdos are two other common Toxic stall Pokemon, both possessing a Fire-type attack as well. Heatran, however, lacks reliable recovery, which Moltres has in the form of Roost. Zapdos lacks Fire-type STAB, which enables Moltres to beat the standard RestTalk Rotom-A. Zapdos can only hurt it with an unSTABed Fire-type attack, or a resisted Electric-type attack. Fire-type STAB also allows Moltres to better ward off Jirachi and Metagross, easily 2HKOing both. Gliscor is immune to Thunderbolt and can Roost off Zapdos' Heat Wave without a problem, but will have some trouble stalling out Moltres, even with Taunt blocking Toxic. This is due to STAB Flamethrower having a chance to 2HKO Gliscor.</p>

<p>A Heatran locked into a Choice item is walled by Moltres, not the other way around. A Specs Fire Blast does less than 50%, and Pressure burns up Fire Blast's PP faster than napalm on top of a flame. Even if Heatran comes in on a Flamethrower, Moltres can still Roost or Substitute while it attacks and Pressure the Fire Blasts away. Moltres' time will be largely focused on putting up another Substitute or Roosting, and in the lulls before then, it can Toxic Heatran to waste time.</p>

<p>If Moltres is ever paired up against a Blissey, Moltres usually stalls Blissey out of her Seismic Toss PP with Pressure, Substitute, and Roost. Ice Beams usually don't break a Substitute, and Flamethrowers can't even in two hits. Even if Blissey has Thunderbolt, Moltres can still win as Roost removes its Electric-type weakness while healing itself. Blissey's only chance to win is to either predict a Roost and status Moltres with Toxic, or use Calm Mind and Thunderbolt. Landing a Thunder Wave will also help, but paralysis doesn't quite stop Moltres (although getting fully paralyzed at a vital point quickly gets annoying).</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Moltres can use Air Slash alongside Hidden Power Grass in an offensive set decently, but is outclassed by Heatran who is neutral to Stealth Rock and possesses a slightly higher Special Attack score.</p>

<p>A lead Moltres with a Choice Scarf is viable as many of the common OU leads are weak to Fire-type attacks, but they will likely switch out anyway, leaving you in against your counter. Aerodactyl, Tyranitar, and Swampert are fairly common leads who will probably beat such a Moltres as well.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>Another huge thing hindering Moltres' use in OU is its 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, meaning it is stripped of near half its health whenever coming in. This greatly diminishes its ability to counter Pokemon and Toxic stall effectively. A Rapid Spin user is a must whenever using Moltres. Forretress and Starmie are the best choices. Starmie resists Water-type attacks which often trouble Moltres. Forretress can set up Toxic Spikes, aiding Moltres' stalling efforts. If it doesn't have to Toxic, say a Vaporeon, it can set up a Substitute right away.</p>

<p>Blissey is a great Pokemon to use alongside Moltres as Blissey is able to absorb Electric-type and most Water-type attacks very well. Vaporeon, Starmie, and Rotom-A don't stand a chance against the almighty Blissey. If you have a Ground-type to absorb Electric-type attacks, than Suicune makes a fabulous partner to Moltres. One of Suicune's arch nemeses is Vaporeon, whom Moltres just happens to lure very well. Suicune can also take on Salamence one on one if it has Ice Beam. Swampert works rather well with Moltres as it can counter Tyranitar without a problem as well as Choice Specs Jolteon if you can avoid a Hidden Power Grass.</p>

<p>A status absorber will be very helpful to Moltres, as many of the Pokemon Moltres wishes to beat often pack status moves. These Pokemon are Roserade, Celebi, Breloom, Bronzong, and even Blissey. RestTalk Machamp pairs decently with Moltres, its main advantage is(remove this) being capable of countering troublesome Tyranitar, and making an excellent immediate switch into Blissey. Gyarados, although also weak to Rock-type attacks, absorbs status very well when using Rest and Sleep Talk. Intimidate is very valuable against Salamence and other physical attackers.</p>

[EVs]

<p>248 HP is preferred to simply maxing HP, as it means Moltres can switch into Stealth Rock three times rather than two, which can be crucial in certain situations. Investing in Special Defense is viable as it helps you stall against weaker Surfs and Thunderbolts.</p>

<p>60 Spe EVs allows Moltres to outspeed 88 Spe Rotom-A, most Breloom, Adamant Scizor, as well as Adamant Tyranitar. 112 Spe EVs is enough to beat Jolly Tyranitar, while 160 Spe EVs with a boosting nature is enough to beat Adamant Lucario.</p>

[Opinion]

<p>Moltres is a niche Pokemon in the OU environment. On one hand, it is possibly the best Scizor counter in the game. On the other, it loses half its health whenever switching into Stealth Rock, a common battle condition. Rapid Spin support is a must when using Moltres—the damage is just too devastating to its survivability without it. If you can keep Stealth Rock off the field, Moltres is a great asset to any team, able to counter some of the fiercest Pokemon in the metagame. All things considered, Moltres will either break or make the game so tread with caution.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Bulky Water-types as well as Blissey do a decent job at countering Moltres, but will often get crippled in the process. Tentacruel is immune to Toxic, and thus can Surf Moltres without much fear of retaliation. The best counters to Moltres use Rest to eliminate poison damage and repeated Flamethrowers. Heatran makes a wonderful counter to Moltres if it has Taunt. A taunted Moltres will always be forced to switch against Heatran or just end up activating Flash Fire. RestTalk Suicune and Gyarados can recover off Toxic damage, and also use Dragon Dance or Calm Mind (maybe switch the two around to correspond with their respective Pokemon?) to sweep. Snorlax with Thick Fat takes next to nothing from Moltres and can use Curse to set up on it. When poison has taken its toll, it can then use Rest to heal its health. Tyranitar makes a decent switch in to Moltres as it does not fear Flamethrower, and can use Stone Edge to easily OHKO Moltres. Be weary of Pressure stall however. Curse Tyranitar is a wonderful counter to Moltres. Sandstorm greatly limits Moltres' ability to continuously stall Pokemon. Salamence, Dragonite, and Latias all make decent checks to Moltres but usually fear Toxic.</p>
Mostly just minor nitpicks, hope it helps.
 
Zapdos lacks Fire-type STAB, which enables Moltres to beat the standard RestTalk Rotom-A. Zapdos can only hurt it with an unSTABed Fire-type attack, or a resisted Electric-type attack. Fire-type STAB also allows Moltres to better ward off Jirachi and Metagross, easily 2HKOing both.
Click to expand...

I don't think this is a good example of why Moltres should be used instead of Zapdos. Zapdos seems to do a much better job at Toxic stalling than Moltres. When you say that Moltres can beat the standard RestTalk Rotom-A, that's not necessarily true. Moltres can only 3HKO it with Flamethrower, in which Rotom-A can just use Sleep Talk to get the chance at using Thunderbolt. On the note of Moltres 2HKOing Jirachi and Metagross, that doesn't really make it better. Those two threats can't harm Zapdos much at all, and Zapdos can just repeatedly attack them with Thunderbolt to finish them off. Most of all, the 50% damage taken upon entering the field from Stealth Rock really hinders its ability to switch in and stall effectively.

Aren't there any other important traits that differentiate Moltres from Zapdos as a Toxic staller? I don't know any myself at this moment, so I can't really say what to add.
 
diinbong said:
You should add j.franky's lead set. I can't find it anymore but basically Specs and Scarf Moltres work well as a lead should you want to investigate.
Click to expand...

I mentioned Choice Scarf in other options. Lead Moltres is worse than Specs Lead Heatran. At least Choice Specs Lead Heatran has some surprise value, and could easily be passed off as the standard LeadTran, while Moltres has no such luck.

Fuzznip said:
I don't think this is a good example of why Moltres should be used instead of Zapdos. Zapdos seems to do a much better job at Toxic stalling than Moltres. When you say that Moltres can beat the standard RestTalk Rotom-A, that's not necessarily true. Moltres can only 3HKO it with Flamethrower, in which Rotom-A can just use Sleep Talk to get the chance at using Thunderbolt. On the note of Moltres 2HKOing Jirachi and Metagross, that doesn't really make it better. Those two threats can't harm Zapdos much at all, and Zapdos can just repeatedly attack them with Thunderbolt to finish them off. Most of all, the 50% damage taken upon entering the field from Stealth Rock really hinders its ability to switch in and stall effectively
Click to expand...

Moltres is not OHKOed by a Thunderbolt and can use Roost to remove its weakness to said attack. Being faster, it can 3HKO with Flamethrower before it dies. And 1/3 chance to pick Thunderbolt is pretty poor imo. Metagross can break standard Zapdos' Substitute with Meteor Mash, while it cannot break Moltres. Running some calcs now however, I realize that Zapdos can actually 2HKO Metagross with Heat Wave so I shall remove said part anyway. And whoever is using Moltres shouldn't really be sending Moltres in with Stealth Rock on the field anyway unless in dire situations. I can add other stuff too I guess.

And thank you Flamestrike for the corrections.
 
MetaNite said:
Spr_4h_146.png

[SET]
name: Toxic Stall
move 1: Flamethrower
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Roost
move 4: Toxic / Roar
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Unique typing coupled with good defenses allows Moltres to stall out many defensive Pokemon with Toxic, even in the OU metagame. Flamethrower is a reliable STAB move, which hits nearly every Pokemon immune to Toxic super effectively. Roost recovers your HP in a pinch, and removes Moltres' Electric-type weakness, as well as giving Moltres a resistance to Ice-type attacks. Substitute helps Moltres stall out attacks such as Stone Edge and also guards against status. If your team uses Toxic Spikes, Roar can replace Toxic to rid yourself of annoying RestTalkers such as Gyarados and Suicune. However, you may still want to keep the status move so Moltres can better harm Pokémon not affected by Toxic Spikes, such as Salamence and Gliscor.</p>

<p>A combination of Toxic, Roost, and Substitute allows Moltres to defeat walls such as Vaporeon, Blissey, Gliscor, Latias, et cetera, with a little prediction. Since it resists Fighting-, Steel-, Bug-, and Fire-type attacks, Moltres is able to counter Scizor, Jirachi, Infernape and numerous other physical attackers without many drawbacks. Scizor cannot break Moltres' Substitute with Bullet Punch, meaning Moltres can switch in (even on Stealth Rock), set up a Substitute on the likely switch and Roost off the damage. An Adamant Swords Danced Life Orb Lucario Close Combat will only 2HKO, so if the foe doesn't have Stone Edge, Moltres makes a good counter to Lucario as well.</p>

<p>Moltres' biggest problem is the competition it faces for a team slot. Heatran and Zapdos are two other common Toxic stall Pokemon, both possessing a Fire-type attack as well. Heatran, however, lacks reliable recovery, which Moltres has in the form of Roost. Zapdos lacks Fire-type STAB, which enables Moltres to beat the standard RestTalk Rotom-A. Zapdos can only hurt it with an unSTABed Fire-type attack, or a resisted Electric-type attack. Fire-type STAB also allows Moltres to defeat Celebi and OHKO Lucario. Gliscor is immune to Thunderbolt and can Roost off Zapdos' Heat Wave without a problem, but will have some trouble stalling out Moltres, even with Taunt blocking Toxic. This is due to STAB Flamethrower having a chance to 2HKO Gliscor.</p>

<p>A Heatran locked into a Choice item is walled by Moltres, not the other way around. A Specs Fire Blast does less than 50%, and Pressure burns up Fire Blast's PP faster than napalm on top of a flame. Even if Heatran comes in on a Flamethrower, Moltres can still Roost or Substitute while it attacks and Pressure the Fire Blasts away. Moltres' time will be largely focused on putting up another Substitute or Roosting, and in the lulls between these turns, it can Toxic Heatran to waste time.</p>

<p>If Moltres is ever paired up against a Blissey, Moltres usually stalls Blissey out of her Seismic Toss PP with Pressure, Substitute, and Roost. Ice Beams usually don't break a Substitute, and Flamethrowers can't even in two hits. Even if Blissey has Thunderbolt, Moltres can still win as Roost removes its Electric-type weakness while healing itself. Blissey's only chance to win is to either predict a Roost and status Moltres with Toxic, or use Calm Mind and Thunderbolt. Landing a Thunder Wave will also help, but paralysis doesn't quite stop Moltres (although getting fully paralyzed at a vital point quickly gets annoying).</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Moltres can use Air Slash alongside Hidden Power Grass in an offensive set decently, but is outclassed by Heatran, who takes neutral damage from Stealth Rock and possesses a slightly higher Special Attack score.</p>

<p>A lead Moltres with a Choice Scarf is viable, as many of the common OU leads are weak to Fire-type attacks, but they will likely switch out anyway, leaving you in against your counter. Aerodactyl, Tyranitar, and Swampert are fairly common leads who will probably beat such a Moltres as well.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>Another huge thing hindering Moltres' use in OU is its 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, meaning it is stripped of near half its health whenever coming in. This greatly diminishes its ability to counter Pokemon and Toxic stall effectively. A Rapid Spin user is a must whenever using Moltres. Forretress and Starmie are the best choices. Starmie resists Water-type attacks which often trouble Moltres. Forretress can set up Toxic Spikes, aiding Moltres' stalling efforts. If it doesn't have to Toxic first turn, it can set up a Substitute right away.</p>

<p>Blissey is a great Pokemon to use alongside Moltres as Blissey is able to absorb Electric-type and most Water-type attacks very well. Vaporeon, Starmie, and Rotom-A don't stand a chance against the almighty Blissey. If you have a Ground-type to absorb Electric-type attacks, then Suicune makes a fabulous partner to Moltres. One of Suicune's arch nemeses is Vaporeon, whom Moltres just happens to lure very well. Suicune can also take on Salamence one on one if it has Ice Beam. Swampert works rather well with Moltres as it can counter Tyranitar without a problem as well as Choice Specs Jolteon if you can avoid a Hidden Power Grass.</p>

<p>A status absorber will be very helpful to Moltres, as many of the Pokemon Moltres wishes to beat often pack status moves. These Pokemon are Roserade, Celebi, Breloom, Bronzong, and even Blissey. RestTalk Machamp pairs decently with Moltres, being capable of countering troublesome Tyranitar, and making an excellent immediate switch into Blissey. Gyarados, although also weak to Rock-type attacks, absorbs status very well when using Rest and Sleep Talk. Intimidate is very valuable against Salamence and other physical attackers.</p>

[EVs]

<p>248 HP is preferred to simply maxing HP, as it means Moltres can switch into Stealth Rock three times rather than two, which can be crucial in certain situations. Investing in Special Defense is viable as it helps you stall against weaker Surfs and Thunderbolts.</p>

<p>60 Spe EVs allows Moltres to outspeed 88 Spe Rotom-A, most Breloom, Adamant Scizor, and Adamant Tyranitar. 112 Spe EVs is enough to beat Jolly Tyranitar, while 160 Spe EVs with a boosting nature is enough to beat Adamant Lucario.</p>

[Opinion]

<p>Moltres is a niche Pokemon in the OU environment. On one hand, it is possibly the best Scizor counter in the game. On the other, it loses half its health whenever switching into Stealth Rock, a common battle condition. Rapid Spin support is a must when using Moltres—the damage is just too devastating to its survivability without it. If you can keep Stealth Rock off the field, Moltres is a great asset to any team, able to counter some of the fiercest Pokemon in the metagame. All things considered, Moltres will either make or break the game, so tread with caution.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Bulky Water-types, as well as Blissey, do a decent job at countering Moltres, but will often get crippled in the process. Tentacruel is immune to Toxic, and thus can Surf Moltres without much fear of retaliation. The best counters to Moltres use Rest to eliminate poison damage and repeated Flamethrowers. Heatran makes a wonderful counter to Moltres <em>if</em> it has Taunt. A Taunted Moltres will always be forced to switch against Heatran or just end up activating Flash Fire. RestTalk Suicune and Gyarados can recover off Toxic damage, and also use Calm Mind or Dragon Dance to sweep. Snorlax with Thick Fat takes next to nothing from Moltres and can use Curse to set up on it. When poison has taken its toll, it can then use Rest to heal its health. Tyranitar makes a decent switch in to Moltres as it does not fear Flamethrower, and can use Stone Edge to easily OHKO Moltres. Be weary of Pressure stall, however. Curse Tyranitar is a wonderful counter to Moltres. Sandstorm greatly limits Moltres' ability to continuously stall Pokemon. Salamence, Dragonite, and Latias all make decent checks to Moltres but usually fear Toxic.</p>
Click to expand...
 
just posting to say that I like the reasoning for why Stall Moltres beats even Rest/Talk Heatran that is currently on-site (and which seems to be missing from this analysis). even though that Heatran set isn't very popular, it's a bit of insight that is certainly useful yet isn't immediately apparent.
 
<p>A Heatran locked into a Choice item is walled by Moltres, not the other way around. A Specs Fire Blast does less than 50%, and Pressure burns up Fire Blast's PP faster than napalm on top of a flame. Even if Heatran comes in on a Flamethrower, Moltres can still Roost or Substitute while it attacks and Pressure the Fire Blasts away. Moltres' time will be largely focused on putting up another Substitute or Roosting, and in the lulls before then, it can Toxic Heatran to waste time.</p>
Click to expand...

Moltres cannot toxic Heatran due to steel-typing.
 
The one thing hindering Moltres' use in OU is its 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, meaning it is stripped of near half its health whenever coming in.

Just a small usage edit, as there is nothing huge mentioned previously, so "Another huge thing" seems a tad out of place.
 
Just suggesting an alternate EV spread since I toyed with this today for a while. I used 192 HP / 64 Def / 252 Spe, Timid and actually had Moltres in the lead position and she stuck around for a while. Also experimented with Will-O-Wisp over Toxic and Toxic Spikes Support on the rest of the team. But the spread I listed outspeeds most Roserade as they are HP Fire, as well as Lucario and Salamence before he Dragon Dances (which is crucial since you can Toxic him behind a Sub if he switches in).
 
<p>A Heatran locked into a Choice item is walled by Moltres, not the other way around. A Specs Fire Blast does less than 50%, and Pressure burns up Fire Blast's PP faster than napalm on top of a flame. Even if Heatran comes in on a Flamethrower, Moltres can still Roost or Substitute while it attacks and Pressure the Fire Blasts away. Moltres' time will be largely focused on putting up another Substitute or Roosting, and in the lulls between these turns, it can Toxic Heatran to waste time. Moltres also beats Rest / Sleep Talk versions of Heatran, as they need to be damaged to Rest in the first place. Since Specs can't even beat Moltres, this strain of Heatran is going to do even less. Without being able to Rest, Heatran is forced to attack—almost as if it were Taunted—and Pressure slowly chokes its attacks away.</p>

<p>If Moltres is ever paired up against a Blissey, Moltres usually stalls Blissey out of her Seismic Toss PP with Pressure, Substitute, and Roost. Ice Beams usually don't break a Substitute, and Flamethrowers can't even in two hits. Even if Blissey has Thunderbolt, Moltres can still win as Roost removes its Electric-type weakness while healing itself. Blissey's only chance to win is to either predict a Roost and status Moltres with Toxic, or use Calm Mind and Thunderbolt. Landing a Thunder Wave will also help, but paralysis doesn't quite stop Moltres (although getting fully paralyzed at a vital point quickly gets annoying).</p>
Click to expand...

This section needs to be made more concise. It's over 40% of your analysis, and the primary intention of this set is not to beat just Heatran and Blissey but many other Pokemon as well.

Ice Beams usually don't break a Substitute, and Flamethrowers can't even in two hits.
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Ice Beam will never break a Sub unless it crits, so you can remove "usually."

Blissey's only chance to win is to either predict a Roost and status Moltres with Toxic, or use Calm Mind and Thunderbolt.
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To predict when Moltres will Roost, this will need to occur when Moltres is not behind a Sub, which means Blissey needs either Seismic Toss or Thunderbolt to break the Sub in one hit; you should mention this.
 
[Team Options]

<p>The one huge thing hindering Moltres' use in OU is its 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, meaning it is stripped of near half its health whenever coming in. This greatly diminishes its ability to counter Pokemon and Toxic stall effectively. A Rapid Spin user is a must whenever using Moltres. Forretress and Starmie are the best choices. Starmie resists Water-type attacks which often trouble Moltres. Forretress can set up Toxic Spikes, aiding Moltres' stalling efforts. If it doesn't have to Toxic first turn, it can set up a Substitute right away.</p>
Click to expand...

Tentacruel makes a better partner than Starmie because it can both Rapid Spin and set up Toxic Spikes. It can also help lure Earthquakes giving Moltres a free switch in after spinning the rocks away.

<p>Blissey is a great Pokemon to use alongside Moltres as Blissey is able to absorb Electric-type and most Water-type attacks very well. Vaporeon, Starmie, and Rotom-A don't stand a chance against the almighty Blissey. If you have a Ground-type to absorb Electric-type attacks, then Suicune makes a fabulous partner to Moltres. One of Suicune's arch nemeses is Vaporeon, whom Moltres just happens to lure very well. Suicune can also take on Salamence one on one if it has Ice Beam. Swampert works rather well with Moltres as it can counter Tyranitar without a problem as well as Choice Specs Jolteon if you can avoid a Hidden Power Grass.</p>
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The bolded sentence is confusing. I had to read it several times to understand what you were getting at. If I am understanding it correctly though, maybe replace it with something like:

"Moltres can lure out and poison bulky waters such as Vaporeon early on to clear the way for Suicune to sweep later."

<p>A status absorber will be very helpful to Moltres, as many of the Pokemon Moltres wishes to beat often pack status moves. These Pokemon are Roserade, Celebi, Breloom, Bronzong, and even Blissey. RestTalk Machamp pairs decently with Moltres, being capable of countering troublesome Tyranitar, and making an excellent immediate switch into Blissey. Although also weak to Rock-type attacks, RestTalk Gyarados absorbs status very well. Intimidate is very valuable against Salamence and other physical attackers.</p>
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ANY pokemon absorbs status well when using a RestTalk set. Gyarados specifically though shares two of Moltres's weaknesses. In OU, Roserade and Celebi have much better synergy with Moltres. They resist electric and water and take neutral damage from rock. In turn, Moltres can help protect them from fire and bug attacks.
 
Overall, I feel that ScarfLead Moltres deserves a spot in your OU Analysis for Moltres. I've used (and invented) the current ScarfLead Moltres set... and while I'm still getting used to the current metagame, I don't see any reason why it doesn't deserve a spot in this analysis, especially because it is probably the best Scizor and MixApe counter if the Stealth Rocks are kept off the field.

I admit I'm a fan of my own set (who isn't :-p), so I'll use a different approach here. As far as I can see, Scarf Lead Moltres is still one of the more common Moltres sets in the game. According to Doug's November statistics, Choice Scarf is on 32% of Moltres, and Overheat, U-Turn, Air Slash and Will o wisp are all more common than both Substitute and Toxic: leading me to believe that the Scarf Set is at least as common as the Toxic Stall set. Especially because 57.9% of Moltres had 0 EVs in HP in November.
 
There is not a "current" Moltres Choice Scarf set. That set has mention of Deoxy-S, exemplifying how it is old and outdated. Since that set remains the first Moltres set in the analysis (which is still OU based might I add), of course it is going to be more used than the others, as most newer players here tend to use the Smogon sets. And it is a worse Scizor / Infernape counter than the Stall set due to it lacking Roost, and Scizor more than easily switching it out to say Heatran, as can and most likely will any smart player with say a Metagross against said lead Moltres. Being locked into a move it just terrible in this situation, as you can't even stall Heatran.

If a couple more people can attest to your set's effectiveness, I will add it. But as of now I don't see its usefulness. (I mean really, I'd rather just use a ScarfTran lead who can actually set up Stealth Rock. Hell, I'd rather use a Scarf Blaziken lead than Moltres to beat Heatran and Tar leads as well, while not being weak to stealth rock...)
 
MetaNite said:
There is not a "current" Moltres Choice Scarf set. That set has mention of Deoxy-S, exemplifying how it is old and outdated. Since that set remains the first Moltres set in the analysis (which is still OU based might I add), of course it is going to be more used than the others, as most newer players here tend to use the Smogon sets. And it is a worse Scizor / Infernape counter than the Stall set due to it lacking Roost, and Scizor more than easily switching it out to say Heatran, as can and most likely will any smart player with say a Metagross against said lead Moltres. Being locked into a move it just terrible in this situation, as you can't even stall Heatran.
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I wrote an updated analysis for the ScarfLead Moltres, but to be honest, I was kind of ambivalent about it. It worked fairly well (kinda like Jirachi, but based on immediate damage), but prediction was at a premium when using it. Also, Fire Blast should be used over Overheat, due to how easy it is to set up on an ever-weakening Overheat. Let me link you to my updated analysis if it interests you.

I would suggest giving it a spot in OO at the very least, because Infernape is a great threat to many teams not packing Latias, and solid checks on it are hard to come by.

[SET]
Name: Immediate Damage Lead (OU)
Move 1: Air Slash
Move 2: Fire Blast
Move 3: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Fighting
Move 4: U-turn
Item: Choice Scarf
Nature: Modest
EVs: 40 Def / 252 SpA / 216 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Stealth Rock may have become ubiquitous in the OU environment, but Moltres can still work as a lead by virtue of the fact that it can handle so many different leads and still come out on top much of the time. Azelf and Infernape suffer 2HKOes from Air Slash, and combined with the 30% flinch chance, there is a very real possibility that your opponent may gain no momentum at all. Swampert is OHKOed by Hidden Power Grass, Jirachi is OHKOed by Fire Blast, and Metagross and Hippowdon are 2HKOed by the Fire-type attack, meaning that should your opponent choose to put up Stealth Rock, they will need to pay for it.</p>

<p>The magic of the Moltres lead is that there is only one lead against whom you unequivocally lose: Aerodactyl, in which case you should U-turn to a counter. Roserade and Smeargle can put a sleep status on you if they avoid the flinch (although they will be at 1 HP regardless), but if those leads are a concern for your team, you should employ a Scarfed Anti-lead Jirachi. Moltres is a lead with a focus on dealing immediate damage to the opponent's lead rather than attempting to cripple it with Trick. Although Will-O-Wisp has traditionally been used in the third slot, with Gyarados, Tyranitar, and Salamence declining as leads, the move is of less utility as far as leading is concerned. So instead, Hidden Power Grass is used to OHKO an unsuspecting Swampert. For other options, Hidden Power Fighting ensures that you 2HKO Heatran and Tyranitar, who otherwise wall you. But if you choose Hidden Power Fighting, be prepared to use U-turn more often to avoid giving setup opportunities to Gyarados and Salamence.</p>

<p>Moltres is useful later in the game as well as a potential sweeper or cleaner with Air Slash or Fire Blast, and check on potent threats such as Lucario, Infernape, Scizor, and Heatran (with appropriate Hidden Power), provided you have a way of removing Stealth Rock from the field. A Starmie is a perfect candidate for this role, as it can take the Fire-type and Water-type attacks from the likes of Gyarados and Heatran that give Moltres trouble, while using Rapid Spin to clear the field of hazards when it gets the opportunity. If you are interested in a bulkier, more utility-minded spinner, Forretress is what you need, as it can also set up Stealth Rock and Spikes. While the likely need to use Rapid Spin may be anathema, keep in mind that if Moltres has KOed the opposing lead (which it is designed to do), you only need to use Rapid Spin once, a small price to pay for a useful sweeper and check on many threats.</p>

<p>The sad reality about using Moltres (besides the Stealth Rock weakness) is that since it depends on prediction, you will need a way to deal with your predictions going wrong. These include things like using Overheat or Will-O-Wisp on an incoming Heatran, or just having Salamence, Gyarados, or Tyranitar come in as revenge killers after a Fire Blast and begin a setup. A Starmie can handle Gyarados, while a Salamence, though difficult to counter, can often be revenge killed by Scizor. Suicune is a great way to check threats such as Heatran and Gyarados, but one should be careful not to let it be overwhelmed, and if using it, you may wish to consider Forretress as your spinner to avoid typing issues. Scizor is a solid partner for Moltres as far as being a lead is concerned, as it can OHKO opposing Aerodactyl leads after a U-turn. Tyranitar is the most problematic Pokemon for you to deal with, but a Machamp, Swampert, or Gliscor can do well at defeating it if you can't weaken it to the point where a Scizor's Bullet Punch can OHKO through the Babiri Berry (an OHKO is guaranteed otherwise).</p>
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This I believe is the set Diinbong was talking about in his post. It was part of the UU analysis, but I removed it a while ago.

[SET]
name: Anti-Lead v2
move 1: Fire Blast / Overheat
move 2: Air Slash
move 3: Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Grass
move 4: U-turn / Roost
item: Life Orb / Expert Belt
nature: Modest
evs: 24 Def / 252 SpA / 232 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This is a slight variation of the Anti-lead set. Instead of getting locked into one move, due to Choice Scarf, you have more freedom to hit opposing leads with Life Orb under your belt. Moltres' amazing typing makes it easier for Moltres to combat with the common leads in today's metagame, and at the same time overwhelm the opposition with your Special Attack stat, which peaks at 383. The basic idea of the set is to hit the opponent’s slower lead, to prevent them from laying down Stealth Rock, and to score an early KO in the match. Moltres can patch up its own weakness by taking out the opponent's Stealth Rock user early in the match, which can help out Moltres in the long run.</p>

<p>Fire Blast is your main attacking option, which can OHKO the frequently used Steel-type leads, like Metagross, Jirachi, and Bronzong. Metagross and Bronzong are useless when they match up against Moltres because they are outpaced and OHKOed by Fire Blast. Jirachi can’t do much because it can only muster up 17.76% - 20.87% with Iron Head and Moltres can gladly accept Choice Scarf (if it uses Trick). Overheat is always welcome as your second option to increase your chances of scoring a KO on Metagross (when it's equipped with an Occa Berry) and have a chance to OHKO Hippowdon. Your secondary STAB is Air Slash, which completes the Fire- and Flying-type combination, which is only resisted by a few Pokemon. Air Slash has a dandy 30% flinch rate, which can come in handy when matching up with Hippowdon and Swampert. A combination of Air Slash and Fire Blast can 2HKO Hippowdon and a combination of two Air Slashes can 2HKO Swampert. Air Slash also hits lead Infernape for super effective damage, while Infernape has no way hurting you back because Moltres resist both Fire- and Fighting-type attacks.</p>

<p>The third slot relies on Hidden Power to further improve your type coverage. Heatran can come on this set easily if you’re not packing Hidden Power Ground and, while Hidden Power Grass is not necessarily required; it gets a sweet OHKO on Swampert. U-turn is your final move, which is required to scout out incoming Pokemon and escape from Tyranitar – who can really give Moltres a hard time. Packing Roost is another option for your final slot to heal Moltres because Sandstorm damage, Life Orb recoil and previous damages can slice down Moltres' HP far too quickly.</p>

<p>24 Defense EVs gives Moltres more Defense to help survive a Waterfall from Swampert and Gyarados, when they have Leftovers. It’s not recommended to stay in on Gyarados to gamble on the Air Slash flinch, though, because Gyarados' Waterfall has 46.15% chance of OHKO. 232 Speed EVs is enough to outspeed Jolly Smeargle, striking it with Air Slash (and hopefully score a flinch) before it puts you into a deep slumber with Spore.</p>

<p>There are multitude of options for the item slot: Lum Berry, Charti Berry, and Expert Belt. These are other options to bluff your opponent into thinking you wield a Choice item. Lum Berry is only useful when you match up against someone like Roserade or Smeargle, who don't necessarily pose much of a threat to Moltres when they cannot put it to sleep. Charti Berry is an interesting option because it reduces the damage of Rock-type attacks by 50%. Expert Belt is probably your best choice out the three listed. Expert Belt bluffs the opponent into thinking that you wield a Choice item, and at the same time it provides a damage boost for Moltres, without loosing any HP. Don't get too frantic when selecting Expert Belt as your item, because you are could still miss out on some crucial 2HKO and OHKOs.</p>

<h3>Life Orb vs Expert Belt</h3>

<h4>Damage Calculations with Life Orb</h4>
<pre>
Overheat vs. max HP / 88 SpD Hippowdon - 88.10% - 103.81%
Overheat vs max HP / min SpD Metagross (with Occa Berry) - 95.60% - 112.36%
Air Slash vs max HP / min SpD Swampert - 46.04% - 54.21%
</pre>

<h4>Damage Calculations with Expert Belt</h4>
<pre>
Overheat vs. max HP / 88 SpD Hippowdon - 67.86% - 80.00%
Overheat vs max HP / min SpD Metagross (with Occa Berry) - 87.91% - 103.85%
Air Slash vs max HP / min SpD Swampert - 35.64% - 41.83%
</pre>

<p>Moltres with Life Orb in the lead slot is an absolute force, but it is stopped stone cold by Tyranitar. Your best option is to utilize U-turn to escape from the tyrant’s dreaded Rock-type attacks and switch in Machamp to take Stone Edge and strike back with a STAB Fighting-type attack. Suicide leads are bundle of trouble because they pack Focus Sash to survive a hit. Aerodactyl in particular can OHKO Moltres with Rock Slide or execute Stealth Rock early in the match. Scizor is arguably the best partner alongside this Moltres set, because Moltres can U-turn on Azelf and Tyranitar and let Scizor finish these pesky Pokemon with Bullet Punch. No one in the right mind would use a Fire-type move on Moltres, making Scizor the perfect switch-in without breaking a sweat. Moltres is by no means a suicide lead; it can also be used late-game as a sweeper. It is advised that you pack an effective Rapid Spinner, like Tentacruel or Donphan, to remove these floating rocks from existence, which can hold back Moltres from switching in later in the match.</p>
Feel free to include it or keep it out at your discretion, or to change any set comments that may be out of date or incorrect.
 
MetaNite said:
If a couple more people can attest to your set's effectiveness, I will add it. But as of now I don't see its usefulness. (I mean really, I'd rather just use a ScarfTran lead who can actually set up Stealth Rock. Hell, I'd rather use a Scarf Blaziken lead than Moltres to beat Heatran and Tar leads as well, while not being weak to stealth rock...)
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I can agree with that overall. Its your analysis, and I've been out of the loop for a while anyway. So a player more experienced in the current metagame should probably give the recommendation.

But here are the things that give Moltres an edge compared to other fire types: Immunity to Earthquake, U-Turn, and Air Slash. Air Slash gives you a 30% chance to stop Azelf Stealth Rocks early on. U-Turn into Dugtrio can provide you an early OHKO vs Tyranitar or Heatran switch-ins (and you can delay the choice until after they've switched in).

U-Turn was made for lead pokemon. It benefits greatly from the opponent's switches, and even if they don't switch out, you still have 5 other pokemon who can keep you at an advantage in the early game. I can understand the dislike of Overheat and probably WoW as well: but the real utility of Lead Moltres is the potential of the early U-Turn.

There are very few pokemon who threaten a straight up OHKO on so many leads, while simultaniously learning U-Turn. This is a niche that ONLY Moltres can do. Even if it isn't my specific set that goes up there, something needs to take advantage of Moltres's ability to U-Turn.

Because hey, you put your opponent in a bad spot. Switching to a counter (like Heatran or TTar) can lead to U-Turn -> Dugtrio. Staying in means that Moltres can OHKO their lead. At high level play, your opponent's best option has been minimized.
 
The statement that Aerodactyl is the only lead you unequivocally lose to is rather bold, considering Tyranitar shits all over it too (it laughs at HP Grass), and possibly others that I haven't thought of.
 
Perhaps its poorly worded... because I could have sworn that I ran damage calculations showing that SpecsMence OHKOs it with DracoMeteor, which "shits all over it" to say the least. I think I also listed Zapdos.

At the moment: my main argument is this: I think there should be a lead Moltres set that threatens a lot of OHKOs and takes advantage of this fact with U-Turn.
 
cookie said:
The statement that Aerodactyl is the only lead you unequivocally lose to is rather bold, considering Tyranitar shits all over it too (it laughs at HP Grass), and possibly others that I haven't thought of.
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That was an oversight. Also, Tyranitar isn't too common a lead in OU (IIRC, it's not in the top 10), so I'm not that worried about it. The main point is that a Scarfed-Lead is decent, but really prediction-reliant, which is disappointing. To be honest, I would probably prefer a Togekiss, although IMO Moltres is superior in the middlegame and endgame given spin support.
 
MetaNite said:
Heatran makes a wonderful counter to Moltres <em>if</em> it has Taunt.
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It may be a little gimmicky, but some Heatrans carry Roar, don´t they?
Being forced out can be a serious problem to 4x Rock-weak mon.
As using Moltres with spinner is mandatory, mostly you will have a good chance to have a Stealth rock free field, but Heatran is able to carry SR as well.

Most of Heatrans will not be able to use the free turns, so your statement has a very good point.
 
As we are likely aware of, Moltres's analysis has had a set called "Staller" for quite some time now, so this thread should not remain here any longer. Moderation assistance needed.
 
I'm going to assume by "moderation assistance needed" you mean this thread should be locked. But I think you are not aware that the on site set labeled "Staller" is for UU and this is an OU analysis. Thank you for bumping this however, as I need to input Additional Comments and add the Overview.
 
Not exactly, I've already PMed a Moderator for taking the appropriate decision regarding some threads around. Also, this one is way outdated, so in case it stays around I suggest revising the entire write-up before adding anything else.
 
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