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np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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And I don't understand if you're not reading the posts, not understanding them or pretending not to do so, which would be the worst.
Let's play the math game where we add numbers together to see if someone is bullshitting or not (using standard UU Registeel from analysis, which is the "best" spread for beating Raikou actually):
With min/min Sub CM Raikou....
Registeel switches in. Raikou uses Substitute (81.25%)
Raikou uses Calm Mind. Registeel uses Earthquake. Raikou (87.5%)
Raikou uses Thunderbolt (39.8%max). Registeel uses Earthquake (50.9%min). Raikou (42.5%)
Raikou uses Thunderbolt (39.8%max). Registeel needs to have started with more than 39.8+39.8 - 6.25 = 73.35% to "hard counter" Raikou. That's triple your suggested 25%, and this is without any entry hazards.
Let's try the Life Orb variant now:
Registeel switches in. Raikou uses Calm Mind. Raikou (100%)
Raikou uses Thunderbolt (51.9%max). Registeel uses Earthquake (2HKOes).
Raikou uses Thunderbolt (51.9% max). Registeel needs to start with 51.9 + 51.9 - 6.25 = 97.55% to "hard counter Raikou". Even Stealth Rock would close that gap. That's roughly quadruple your suggested 25%.
So please, stop with this annoying "REGISTEEL HAS GOOD SPECIAL DEFENSE SO IT COUNTERS RAIKOU" argument. It's simply false.
You don't understand or you don't like what I said? It's quite simple; Bluewind and I were saying that people's reasons for Raikou not being broken are inconsistent with our previous ban of Cresselia. Cresselia was banned because it sweeps easily and "could" run any of those moves I listed with the EVs I listed, then so is Raikou. Similar logic applies to the SubCM set, if Cresselia was broken for doing what Raikou does but with more reliable and viable counters, then so is Raikou. It's really not complicated, you are clearly competent enough to understand this simple logic.
And about Registeel: Once again, LO Raikou Thunderbolt does 51.9% max. Swellow is weak to Stealth Rock and does 29.40% max with Facade. Calculations are really all I need for any of these arguments.
Maybe not but it managed to have max Speed when a counter was suggested, like Modest Moltres or Rotom.
Heysup said:
What? Cresselia was banned for a variety of reasons, of which sweeping was but one. I'll link you the nominations from last round:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67567
Every single time Cresslia was nominated, it was under the Defensive Characteristic. Every time someone nominated Cresselia under the OC, he / she also nominated Cresselia under the DC. In fact even Bluewind nominated Cresselia under the DC but not the OC. And now you're saying that Cresselia was banned because of the SubCM set.
Please justify.
PS: Cresselia obviously cannot have 252 EVs in every stat and have positive natures in them all, but it conceivably can have 252 EVs in any one of those stats and a positive nature in it. This matters, because what to do in response to Cresselia varies depending on what set it's using. There was this quote by Lemmiwinks MkII somewhere - can't find it now - about what to do against Cresselia. If you think it's SubCM but wind up switching Absol into Thunder Wave, you're in trouble. On the other hand, if you switch in (say) Uxie and it uses Substitute, you're also in trouble. Cresselia is obviously more versatile than Raikou, which I am sure contributed to its banning.
Good calcs by the way, although you should say it doesn't make Registeel any less of a hard counter to Raikou. You can see when it switches in whether or not it has Leftovers recovery and so read what set it's likely to use, it would've taken down Raikou before it died itself, Raikou might be under pressure and unable to set up, and for some reason it's possible to have Froslass at full health each time you want to spin block but not Registeel when you want to counter Raikou.
PPS: You need to -6.25% twice in your calculations to get the minimum HP at which Registeel is a full counter to Raikou. That's because if Registeel is already damaged it'll recover twice, e.g. if Registeel is at 70% and switches into the SubCM set, it'll be 76.25% when Raikou first uses Thunderbolt.
PPPS: Here's something fun to look at. With min/min Raikou using either set (assuming LO for convenience)
Registeel switches in, Raikou uses Calm Mind.
Raikou uses Thunderbolt (51.9% max). Registeel uses Amnesia.
I'll leave it to your imagination to see what happens next ^^
PPPPS: Something else mentioned by Lemmiwinks MkII somewhere. When Raikou switches in, you switch in Mesprit with some attack investment (+ some defensive investment, in the case of LO Raikou). Whatever Raikou does, you U-turn out to Dugtrio. You break the Sub if it's SubCM, giving Dugtrio a free kill; you take the hit and live if it's LO Raikou, again giving Dugtrio a kill. Finally, if Raikou switches, U-turn buys you the momentum. I've never tried it, but it sure seems effective.
Man, I really won't post anything else in this regard because you're either playing dumb or you'll just never get it. With that said, I'll quote my original posts, that it seems you didn't bother reading at all, and that kicked up this shitstorm. Have that in mind when posting anything else in this regard and also have in mind that it doesn't matter if I, Heysup or God think set number 1, 2 or 3 was broken, the fact is Cresselia's offensive set was deemed so. It doesn't matter if it was because it had freaking lots of defenses, because if it only had that it would be the epitome of a good-for-nothing pokémon, that stays there and go on an endless stall wars with Milotics, Chanseys and Umbreons.
READ THE GODDAMN POSTS! (yes I know, caps look really childish, but it seems to be the only way I'll get people to read this).
PPPPPPPPPPPS: Stop trolling with this Amnesia thing.
PPPPPPPPPPPPS (this one is actually worth reading): Have you just seen how many people mentioned the words "Calm Mind" on their nominations?
READ THE GODDAMN POSTS! (yes I know, caps look really childish, but it seems to be the only way I'll get people to read this).
PPPPPPPPPPPS: Stop trolling with this Amnesia thing.
PPPPPPPPPPPPS (this one is actually worth reading): Have you just seen how many people mentioned the words "Calm Mind" on their nominations?
Nominations are reliable indications of what something was actually banned for. Oh wait...
In fact even if they were, just because something is nominated under the DC doesn't mean they weren't nominating the SubCM set either. The characteristics are almost completely subjective. At least a "general consensus" is better than "subjective interpretations of characteristics and the nominations".
Justification? Where's yours?
Banedon said:
Oops. I think there is some sort of glitch that switches Raikou and Cresselia's names.
Banedon said:
Accusation by shrang: "Raikou is hard countered by Registeel unless it's at 25%"
Calculations prove: Registeel needs 75% at the very least to hard counter Raikou with zero entry hazards.
Raikou can be at 75% and still beat Registeel at 75%. It CAN be worn down and still win simply because it 2HKOes Registeel after it's sitting at 75% or less.
Why is Froslass always healthy in my comparisons? It isn't, for starters. Froslass can switch into Donphan's Earthquake even with 60%. Additionally, it has recovery unlike Registeel.
If Registeel had recovery, then maybe you would have some form of an argument but as it stands you have basically nothing.
Banedon said:
I was making the calculations with no previous damage for clarity, but you're correct if I was considering that.
Unfortunately for you / Raikou, it makes no difference.
Banedon said:
What happens next? I switch out and set up SD Absol because you are using a pathetic and worthless Registeel set. Additionally, if you are indeed suggesting this set: Amnesia / EQ / Iron Head / Rest because it is the only set that can beat LO / SubCM Raikou....why can't I suggest Restalk Raikou or CM Roar Raikou?
Banedon said:
The amount of ignorance it takes to bring up Dugtrio while arguing about using Registeel....
This is also amusing:
I split this quote into two parts, since one was obviously incorrect.
Banedon said:
Damn. The name switch glitch happened again.
Banedon said:
EDIT: Oh I see you were talking about Mesprit switching in?
Thunderbolt does 48.9% - 57.7% 2HKO with Stealth Rock vs 252 HP Mesprit. So you are sacrificing one Pokemon and using Dugtrio to get rid of Life Orb Raikou semi-reliably. That's not a good trade.
Anyway, this is a good tactic, but that's why I carry a Pursuit user so I can switch in as Mesprit uses Stealth Rock before it U-turns or if just straight up U-turns. If it wasn't one of the Raikou trapping variants of Mesprit, it wouldn't come in, so it is fairly obvious.
Heysup said:
The nominations indicate that most people felt Cresselia was broken under the DC. Beyond that, I don't have any further justification. But unless you or Bluewind can exhibit justification that Cresselia was banned under the offensive characteristic, don't claim that it was.
Heysup said:
You do realize that almost no matter what Raikou is doing it will be some kind of special sweeper right - there are exceptions (e.g. it can be setting up Rain Dance), but they are very rare. Cresselia can lurch between being a defensive Pokemon to an offensive one. There is a difference.
Heysup said:
Aye, it can. That's why I said good calcs. So I'll say Registeel isn't a "hard counter" to Raikou in the truest sense of the word. But it's still a check. Also you have assumed the best case for Raikou, e.g. you switch LO Raikou in and Calm Mind on your opponent's switch to the same Mesprit I mentioned. What are you going to do next?
Froslass at 60% is OHKOed by Donphan's Assurance after it switches into SR, and Pain Split isn't reliable recovery.
Heysup said:
I wasn't suggesting that set. I did say "here's something fun to think about". The point is to illustrate that Registeel can be running something unorthodox, and things will not run like clockwork. I remember this set because I was almost swept by it once, when I was 5-1 up in Pokemon as well - and I only won because on the very last move before he KO'ed the last of my Pokemon, I got a crit. The set he used was Amnesia / Curse / Iron Head / Rest.
The more variables you put in the more uncertain things get. I'd rather you left this set alone though and don't respond to this, because like I said it's "something fun to think about".
Heysup said:
Don't forget, Dugtrio works both ways.
Heysup said:
Again there is a difference. How much damage does Pursuit do? What if Cresselia stays in? What if Mesprit switches into Reflect? Cresselia can do so much more to defend itself vs. this tactic than Raikou can.
Heysup said:
Raikou is in and uses Sub / CM (it should, since that's what you assumed). Mesprit switches in.
Mesprit lives the hit (even better if Raikou CM's behind the sub) and U-turns to Dugtrio OR Raikou switches out and Mesprit's U-turn gets his team momentum.
Mesprit isn't using Stealth Rock, nor is it taking two hits. I'll say that when I first saw this tactic, I tried to think of ways past it too (since I did think at that point that Raikou is BL - right now I think he's borderline BL), but couldn't. Raikou can do a lot less to defend itself against this tactic than Cresselia can.
I'm done with this argument for now, and after this post I'll stop commenting on it. Good luck convincing voters that Raikou is BL.
I just wanna say that if you believed Cresselia wasn't broken, then this logic doesn't apply.
Then again, I also want to say that using Amnesia Registeel as a counterexample to Heysup's arguments is equally as stupid.
There's like no point left to argue. Voting will commence in a few days, and then this will all be history anyway.
You're 100% correct, if that's what I was implying. However I was simply saying that it was hypocritical to ban Cresselia for those reasons and not Raikou. The logic does apply there, I'm almost sure of that. I am taking the fact of Cresselia being broken as a fact for these arguments, since there is no point in arguing that now. All I'm saying is that banning Cresselia for those reasons that apply much more effectively to Raikou is fallacious / hypocritical.
I Give up. I feel like I'm talking to a door.
you guys whine too much
This last couple of pages have been nothing nothing short of a farce IMO.
Is Raikou as good as Cresselia? No, of course not. Cress was a "super-BL", however there are many compelling arguments for Raikou being BL already, completely separate to Cress' situation, and the focus should remain as such. Simple really. Any attempts to draw comparisons to the mighty Cress with Raikou is both completely unnecessary and asking for trouble, as are any attempts to grossly simplify Cress' "BL-ness". Raikou doesn't deserve that, and the anti-Raikou crowd doesn't need to go there at all.
Is Raikou as good as Cresselia? No, of course not. Cress was a "super-BL", however there are many compelling arguments for Raikou being BL already, completely separate to Cress' situation, and the focus should remain as such. Simple really. Any attempts to draw comparisons to the mighty Cress with Raikou is both completely unnecessary and asking for trouble, as are any attempts to grossly simplify Cress' "BL-ness". Raikou doesn't deserve that, and the anti-Raikou crowd doesn't need to go there at all.
Alright, time for a change of topic:
Well, I've never even heard of a pure specially defensive Milotic (the standard Bulky water set does just fine) unless you mean calm over bold. Even then,
Super Power deals 46.1% - 54.5% to the Bulky water set with Calm nature.
(42.2% - 49.9% with bold) That's never a 2HKO.
Magmortar's T-bolt deals 60.6% - 71.2% to Bold Milotic and 55% - 65.1% to calm versions. That's a guaranteed 2HKO.
For Azumarill, Blaziken's Vacuum wave deals 25.4% - 29.9%, meaning your almost always forced to switch out unless Azumarill is crippled.
I'll give you that, Blaziken beats down Lanturn better than Magmortar however, Magmortar can potentially 2HKO Lanturn with HP Grass assuming Entry hazards are in play. (44.9% - 53.4%)
I don't know... Magmortar can actually 2HKO the Mighty Slowking with T-bolt, while Blaziken can't even touch Slowking. He can actually run through stall teams like a hot knife through butter under the correct circumstances.
I mean you say this yourself.
You say this yourself. (Not trying to slanderize you)
Well, I've never even heard of a pure specially defensive Milotic (the standard Bulky water set does just fine) unless you mean calm over bold. Even then,
Super Power deals 46.1% - 54.5% to the Bulky water set with Calm nature.
(42.2% - 49.9% with bold) That's never a 2HKO.
Magmortar's T-bolt deals 60.6% - 71.2% to Bold Milotic and 55% - 65.1% to calm versions. That's a guaranteed 2HKO.
For Azumarill, Blaziken's Vacuum wave deals 25.4% - 29.9%, meaning your almost always forced to switch out unless Azumarill is crippled.
I'll give you that, Blaziken beats down Lanturn better than Magmortar however, Magmortar can potentially 2HKO Lanturn with HP Grass assuming Entry hazards are in play. (44.9% - 53.4%)
I don't know... Magmortar can actually 2HKO the Mighty Slowking with T-bolt, while Blaziken can't even touch Slowking. He can actually run through stall teams like a hot knife through butter under the correct circumstances.
I mean you say this yourself.
You say this yourself. (Not trying to slanderize you)
I like how you just tried to pass your opinion off as a fact but you always call others out for doing something similar. :D
I knew it would do me good to keep my calculator up. More math games yay!
240 Atk Blaziken vs 252/252+ (with a bold nature) Milotic: 51.1% - 60.3%
252 SpA Hidden Power vs 252/0 Milotic: 40.2% - 47.8%
51.1 + 40.2 = 90.3 - 6.25 = 84.05 minimum damage, basically a guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock.
And the SpD variant clearly does worse.
PK Gaming said:
240 Atk Blaziken Superpower vs Azumarill: 71.8% - 84.5%
252 SpA Blaziken Vacuum Wave: 25.4% - 29.9%
Clearly guaranteed with Stealth Rock.
PK Gaming said:
So I say that you're better off comparing Magmortar and Charizard to Blaziken than comparing them to Moltres and that means what exactly?
Magmortar and Charizard have clear benefits over Blaziken, but breaking down stall as a whole is definitely Blaziken's advantage over them. Magmortar hits harder with SpA's and has access to Thunderbolt, but when you compare them directly against walls, you're not going to get very far.
Oh... I was assuming you ran the 0 attack ones. Still, you can't deny that T-bolting with Magmortar does the exact same thing but better.
But a single T-bolt on Azumarill switching in deals:
86.3% - 101.7%
I clearly OHKO with entry hazards.
Ah my mistake. I must of misread then. I don't know dude... I mean Blaziken needs to invest in Attack/SpA and is far slower than Maggy if he goes that route. To add insult to injury, T-bolt almost always outdamages Super power, and you can easily fire off another one.
I just don't see how Blaziken is superior at breaking down stall.
And assuming you DON'T face stall, Maggy is still a huge threat on it's own (with a lot less counters than most give credit)
It doesn't even need LO to 2KO Milotic so it can afford to run something like Lum Berry or Leftovers or Expert Belt to bluff a choice item. It really is strong. You guys should try it.
Oh, and has anyone ever fooled around with passing SD using Leafeon to Arcanine? SD E-Speed looks like it could do a lot of damage coming off an attack stat equivalent to Lucario's.
Also, just found out SD Flare Blitz with LO kills Uxie assuming there is SR. The only problem it looks like is bulky waters which it kills with Thundeer Fang. Leafeon also happens to handle them well.
Oh, and has anyone ever fooled around with passing SD using Leafeon to Arcanine? SD E-Speed looks like it could do a lot of damage coming off an attack stat equivalent to Lucario's.
Also, just found out SD Flare Blitz with LO kills Uxie assuming there is SR. The only problem it looks like is bulky waters which it kills with Thundeer Fang. Leafeon also happens to handle them well.
If Raikou was deemed to be as good as Cress, it wouldn't have survived even one round of testing in UU, never mind two on the trot. We have to respect the integrity of the pool of qualified voters as a means of achieving progress, otherwise the minority that always exists can just yell 'opinion!' every time in order to impede any and all progress. You seem to either have serious issues with the testing policies, or have little respect for the integrity of the qualified voter pool, or worse, both. I hope you remain in a tiny minority in this regard, otherwise we really will have problems.
Oh yes, many times. One of my favorite UU combos ever. Yache Leafeon is particularly effective from my experience.
Flare Blitz helps with the wall breaking hitting most physically defensive pokemon for Super Effective damage. CC does have the advantage of hitting Bulky Waters, though. I've also passed SDs to RP Rhyperior. When it works (happened 3 times today) it's so beautiful. XD
Oh, I'm using my Leafeon with DS support and an offensive set with LO allowing me to sweep if I ever need to. Sort of like a Hybrid. Baton Pass is really useful fr scouting.
Oh, I'm using my Leafeon with DS support and an offensive set with LO allowing me to sweep if I ever need to. Sort of like a Hybrid. Baton Pass is really useful fr scouting.
The only thing I don't like about Alakazam is how difficult it is to switch him in. The easiest time to switch him in is on an obvious Stealth Rock, but even then, you could potentially be risking a Thunder Wave against something like Chansey or Registeel.
If he had even ONE immunity, he would be a staple on most of my teams.
However, the amount on Venusaurs that simply love to SD first turn are great switch-ins for Alaka.
He loves switching in on Venusaurs Swords Dance. Switching into the most common Pokemon is a nice quality.
Others who enjoy this: Scyther, Swellow, all fire-types, etc....
Edit: Ninja BW. ;_;
You must have missed RT's rmt a while back. =( For everyone's reference: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62275
I don't know how to make it into a word that functions as a link. =( Help would be appreciated though. =)
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