Empoleon (Update)

Substitute allows you to activate Petaya with a substitute up, which means that now your Grass Knots have a solid chance to 2HKO. That's also assuming that your opponent's priority is still alive. Also, if Vaporeon rolls anything other than minimum damage when it's HP Electric-ing you, then Scizor will be able to revenge after Vaporeon goes down anyway. What point did this have anyway?
What are you talking about here? How does Empoleon get a Sub up at such a low health without Vaporeon attacking it? As soon as you're in range for Vaporeon to KO, it will attack you instead of using Wish. That means it's attacking you if you decide to Sub... -__-

Where did he actually talk about Salamence NOT coming in on a revenge KO?
I guess I mistook his statement about SS killing as him thinking Surf allows Empoleon to still sweep with SS around. So okay... 50% chance that Empoleon's sweep is stopped, assuming Salamence doesn't have any bulk.

You guys keep talking like you're the only people who have ever used Sub Petaya Empoleon. I have used it quite a bit myself, and have found Ice Beam to be useful more often than Grass Knot (post Latias even).
 

cim

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What are you talking about here? How does Empoleon get a Sub up at such a low health without Vaporeon attacking it? As soon as you're in range for Vaporeon to KO, it will attack you instead of using Wish. That means it's attacking you if you decide to Sub... -__-
If you Subbed to that last 25% on a Wish, he has to break the Sub first.

I guess I mistook his statement about SS killing as him thinking Surf allows Empoleon to still sweep with SS around. So okay... 50% chance that Empoleon's sweep is stopped, assuming Salamence doesn't have any bulk.

You guys keep talking like you're the only people who have ever used Sub Petaya Empoleon. I have used it quite a bit myself, and have found Ice Beam to be useful more often than Grass Knot (post Latias even).
I guess I'm just confused because this has never been the case for me with any kind of team. What's your trapping solution for Suicune and Vaporeon, so I can include that in the analysis? The style of an "Empoleon team" generally assumes that Emp is a "checkmate" for a sufficiently weakened team and this problem is one I couldn't get past.
 
I always use a bait Heatran with Emp, because it does a great job bringing out Blissey and bulky waters. I guess that explains why Ice Beam always proves to be way more useful for me... I guess I should've mentioned that, lol.

Anyways, as long as Ice Beam gets a slash, like I said, I will approve (which you agreed to).
 
In listening to the whole argument though I'm not a QC member I always used Ice Beam because its easier to bait out and beat Suicune / Vap than actually trying to mutilate it. Tyranitar doesn't guarentee that you beat Celebi at all since if you mispredict Celebi actually beats you (unless its Tinkerbell, then you just straight lose). Suicune / Vap is just a simple case of running Heatran / Inernape along with it.

I was experimenting with an EV spread for a 3 attack Petaya Empoleon that was quite promising dropping Sub so you keep type coverage. However, it is probably too complex for most people to use. But I had it set so that after Stealth Rock, Earthquake from Gliscor, Swampert, Hippowdon, Flygon, and Life Orb Naive Mixmence all fail to KO and put you in torrent range, while Thunderbolt from Zapdos, Rotom and Starmie did the same. Though it took some EVs that eventually dropped the Special attack from 350 to 330ish I can't remember.
 

cim

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In listening to the whole argument though I'm not a QC member I always used Ice Beam because its easier to bait out and beat Suicune / Vap than actually trying to mutilate it. Tyranitar doesn't guarentee that you beat Celebi at all since if you mispredict Celebi actually beats you (unless its Tinkerbell, then you just straight lose). Suicune / Vap is just a simple case of running Heatran / Inernape along with it.
With the 2hko on both after torrent, even wearing Celebi down is generally enough, which you can do with Pursuit. also fuck tinkerbell but i'll mention this as a pro for IB (which BTW doesn't OHKO celebi)

I was experimenting with an EV spread for a 3 attack Petaya Empoleon that was quite promising dropping Sub so you keep type coverage. However, it is probably too complex for most people to use. But I had it set so that after Stealth Rock, Earthquake from Gliscor, Swampert, Hippowdon, Flygon, and Life Orb Naive Mixmence all fail to KO and put you in torrent range, while Thunderbolt from Zapdos, Rotom and Starmie did the same. Though it took some EVs that eventually dropped the Special attack from 350 to 330ish I can't remember.
If you find em let me know and I'll put it as an AC option on the agility set which I'll probably include I guess just because of the things you can do with it.
 
You should probably mention that Salamence makes an excellent partner for Empoleon, since it lures in Ice and Dragon attacks. More to the point, it lures in Scizor, who is setup fodder for Emp. Also, let's not forget Salamence's wallbreaking capabilities, and the potential (fine, 50-50 shot) of beating Scarfed base 100s that may try to stop your sweep.
 

cim

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You should probably mention that Salamence makes an excellent partner for Empoleon, since it lures in Ice and Dragon attacks. More to the point, it lures in Scizor, who is setup fodder for Emp. Also, let's not forget Salamence's wallbreaking capabilities, and the potential (fine, 50-50 shot) of beating Scarfed base 100s that may try to stop your sweep.
Awesome suggestion, especially considering what moves people use to beat Emp are ones that Salamence loves (fighting ground etc). Thanks!
 

jc104

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Chris is me said:
There was something really specific I ran 232 for. I think it got edited out, but I remember running 212 Speed until I ran into a Pokemon, going "FUCK!" and then bumping it up. Was it Scarf Mamoswine? Either way I'll double check and possibly edit the set to this as the extra bulk for priority attacks would be nice.

edit: i'll check in a bit but i think it was scarf rotom
It wasn't Scarf Rotom but may have been Scarf Mamoswine. Scarf Mamoswine, however, is a fantastically rare set, used on less than 6.6% of Mamoswine. Scarf Togekiss is somewhat more common, used on 9.6% of Togekiss. Remember that both of these are also low-range OU pokemon. A number of rarer things like +1 Gallade, Dragonite, and Medicham are of little consideration, particularly given that you can't KO Dragonite without Ice Beam anyway.

You need Timid to outrun Scarf Rotom, which leaves you in huge trouble against a number of opponents. If you were to put this in set comments, definitely suggest Ice beam with this, since you will have trouble even getting through the targets of grass knot, and you will not KO Salamence with Surf.
 
Grass Knot also does more damage to Gyarados (and Kingdra btw), although you still won't OHKO after Stealth Rock damage. Both deserve to be slashed in my opinion, as it depends completely on what your team can handle. If you don't want to use Tyranitar and add another Fighting / Ground weaknesses just to Pursuit Celebi, then maybe you're better off with Ice Beam. If you're packing Spikes support and the like, then maybe you're better off with Grass Knot so you can kill Suicune / Vaporeon more reliably. I've admittedly been swept before by Life Orb Agility Empoleon and think it should stay in the analysis, especially if Specs is o-o
 

cim

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It wasn't Scarf Rotom but may have been Scarf Mamoswine. Scarf Mamoswine, however, is a fantastically rare set, used on less than 6.6% of Mamoswine. Scarf Togekiss is somewhat more common, used on 9.6% of Togekiss. Remember that both of these are also low-range OU pokemon. A number of rarer things like +1 Gallade, Dragonite, and Medicham are of little consideration, particularly given that you can't KO Dragonite without Ice Beam anyway.

You need Timid to outrun Scarf Rotom, which leaves you in huge trouble against a number of opponents. If you were to put this in set comments, definitely suggest Ice beam with this, since you will have trouble even getting through the targets of grass knot, and you will not KO Salamence with Surf.
I checked, it was Scarf Lucario. I figure that Base 90s are a decent enough concern that I'd rather not risk it, even if the set is pretty rare.
 

Setsuna

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Approving:
- Agility SubPetaya (Ice Beam slashed)
- Lead
- Defensive
- LO + Agility staying on-site
- Choice Specs
- Removal of SD

Nothing else pendent, so
 

Ray Jay

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Hey hey, I'm happy with all the discussion and calcs here. A quick note:

and Scizor's Bullet Punch will never KO an Empoleon, even after 4 Subs and switching in on Stealth Rock
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that that should read after 3 subs.
 

jc104

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This is a very impressive write-up:

[Overview]
Empoleon is an often-overlooked Pokemon with some great offensive potential. Between Torrent, 12 resistances, and high Special Attack, Empoleon can do some serious damage in the late game. Empoleon's movepool is just large enough for him to have a few tricks up his sleeve; few teams are prepared for everything Empoleon brings to the table. (This overview seems a bit short to me)

[SET]
name: Agility SubPetaya
move 1: Agility
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Surf
move 4: Grass Knot / Ice Beam
nature: Modest
item: Petaya Berry
ivs: 30 HP
evs: 24 Def / 252 SpA / 232 Spe

[Set Comments]
<p>While not a very intuitive set for Empoleon's stat spread and typing, Empoleon is most threatening as a late game cleanup Pokemon. Using Empoleon is pretty simple. Near the end of the battle, bring Empoleon in on one of the 12 types of attack he resists, Agility on the switch, and then use Substitute until Empoleon activates his Petaya Berry, increasing Empoleon's Special Attack to 529. With the added bonus of Torrent multiplying Surf's power by 1.5, Empoleon can punch right through Pokemon, even those that resist Water. What really makes Empoleon shine over other late game sweepers is his resistance to priority attacks. Other than Mach Punch and Vacuum Wave, Empoleon resists every priority attack in the game, and Scizor's Bullet Punch will never KO an Empoleon, even after 3 Subs and switching in on Stealth Rock. This makes Empoleon nearly impossible to stop if you provide some key team support with Stealth Rock, Sand Stream, and the elimination of a few key threats earlier in the game.</p>

<p>The given EVs ensure you outrun +1 neutral-natured Base 90 Speed Pokemon and positive-natured +1 base 80 Pokémon after an Agility. However, since these are relatively rare, you may reduce the number of Speed EVs to 212 to outrun Choice Scarf Heatran, giving a spread of 12 HP/32Def/252SpA/212 Spe, but the increase in defense is only slight. 30 HP ensures that Petaya Berry activates on your third Substitute, and 24 Def ensures that Scizor won't be ruining your fun. Grass Knot and Ice Beam each cover some key Water resists. </p>

[Additional Comments]
<p>Your first major decision when using Empoleon is what to use as your 4th attack. Grass Knot is the primary option, as it can help you to obtain (they are far from secure)KOs on particularly tricky opponents like Suicune and Vaporeon. Unless they come in on Toxic Spikes as you begin to set up, both of these Pokemon will end Empoleon's sweep, so having insurance against them is recommended. Ice Beam is an option if you are scared of Salamence, Celebi, and Shaymin. Salamence is only OHKOed 50% of the time by Surf after Stealth Rock (Sandstorm finishes it off, but Empoleon will die first). Celebi and Shaymin will be KOed by Ice Beam with any prior damage (small chance with just SR), but they take 42.3% - 49.8% from Surf as well. Grass Knot is the better option simply because working around Celebi and Shaymin is a lot easier for a team to do than to work around Suicune and Vaporeon due to Celebi's Pursuit and Shaymin's lack of real recovery, but if your team is structured against the aforementioned bulky Waters, running Ice Beam is still an option.</p>

<p>Empoleon is one of the rare Pokemon that is reliable enough to build a team around, and he really shines with proper support. First of all, Stealth Rock and Sandstorm are requirements. Stealth Rock ensures vital KOs on many defensive Pokemon that don't resist Water, while helping with many who do as well, including the aforementioned Salamence. Sand Stream is also immensely beneficial to Empoleon, making a few key Pokemon unable to stop Empoleon's sweep on the switch in. For this reason, Tyranitar makes an ideal partner for Empoleon, providing Sand Stream permanent Sand for the team. Any suicide lead, including Aerodactyl or Azelf, will help Empoleon's sweep by ensuring SR makes it onto the field on turn 1. </p>

<p>Key counters to an Empoleon team include Blissey, Celebi, some Bulky Waters, and Choice Scarfed Pokemon with higher than 80 Base Speed. Choosing Pokemon for the rest of your team to eliminate these threats early is vital to the success of an Empoleon team. The best Empoleon complement is the aforementioned Tyranitar. With Sand Stream as well as a very powerful Pursuit, he is able to do significant damage to Blissey, Celebi, Rotom-A, and many of the game's fastest Choice Scarfers (including Timid Rotom, which outspeeds Empoleon). He also baits out the fairly rare Vacuum Wave Lucario. Other complements to Empoleon focus on either providing Empoleon with switch-ins or baiting and wearing down key Pokemon before Empoleon's sweep begins. Salamence is one of the best offensive complements to Empoleon, as he tends to draw Ice and Dragon attacks that Empoleon loves to come in on. In addition, Scarf Salamence can come in after an opponent's Scarfer takes out Empoleon with Earthquake or a Fighting move and revenge kill to clean up the remnants of the opponent's team. Stallbreaking Gliscor provides Empoleon with even more support, as he baits and Toxics Vaporeon and Suicune while providing a bit of support against stall teams trying to Spike or otherwise set up on your team. Tentacruel, Forretress, and Roserade all provide Toxic Spikes, which basically do Gliscor's job with the addition of hitting Blissey, Celebi, and Shaymin through Natural Cure. A baiting Heatran can Explode on bulky waters and Blissey to make way for Empoleon's sweep, but watch out for Protect. Rotom-A is useful to block Rapid Spin from taking away Stealth Rock or Toxic Spikes. Careful thought needs to be put into the entirety of your team in order to make sure Empoleon gets the support he needs; Empoleon is sadly not a Pokemon well suited to being "dropped in" on a team.</p>

<p>You can run Timid with a spread of 12 HP/48 Def/252 SpA/196 Spe in order to beat Scarf Rotom, but you lose a massive amount of power and ensure far fewer KOs, so it is a poor option. Hydro Pump gains guaranteed KOs on Salamence, Rotom, and some other borderline Pokemon, and can offset the use of a Timid nature, but the last thing you want your late game sweeper to do is miss a vital attack, so Hydro Pump is an inferior option. When you consider how useful Scarf Rotom's perfect counter, Tyranitar, is, it becomes even less appealing as an option. </p>
 

cim

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I'll add a mention for the spread, but those KOs are pretty conclusively proven "secure" as the last 20 posts confirmed, so I still think the other spread is ideal.

Edited in everything else, thanks!
 
Just posting to say that you aren't beating Crocune with Grass Knot. It is basically a 100% counter and Crocune IS the first Suicune set so we probably shouldn't mislead the readers...
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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Sigh... did you just not read anything here?

Crocune needs the following luck to beat Empoleon:

1: Not getting CH'd at any time while it's trying to set up (already a >50% chance to ch at least once during the first 11 turns, and ~64% chance after just half of Grass Knot's 32 PP)
2: Getting a CM during the two turns of Sleep Talk in the first rest (otherwise it is 3HKOed even at +1 (~55% chance to occur)
3: Not managing to put Empoleon into Petaya range (enough Surfs from Sleep Talk will eventually make this happen)

Crocune is probably the bar none shakiest "counter" ever to exist for Empoleon, and relying on it is a bad, bad decision.
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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There's a reason Grass Knot is listed as the primary slash, and Crocune is one of them. Obviously the issue of Vaporeon and Suicune is a fairly big one for Ice Beam variants (and iirc that's mentioned? if not it definitely should be).
 
Sigh... did you just not read anything here?

Crocune needs the following luck to beat Empoleon:

1: Not getting CH'd at any time while it's trying to set up (already a >50% chance to ch at least once during the first 11 turns, and ~64% chance after just half of Grass Knot's 32 PP)
2: Getting a CM during the two turns of Sleep Talk in the first rest (otherwise it is 3HKOed even at +1 (~55% chance to occur)
3: Not managing to put Empoleon into Petaya range (enough Surfs from Sleep Talk will eventually make this happen)

Crocune is probably the bar none shakiest "counter" ever to exist for Empoleon, and relying on it is a bad, bad decision.
Bolding done by me.

Just a nitpick here, but the absolute maximum number of times Empoleon can get off a Grass Knot on Suicune is sixteen due to Pressure, which is not entirely insignificant when taking into account the odds of getting a critical hit off.
I agree with SDS, however, that Crocune should definitely not be listed as an Empoleon counter on-site.
 

firecape

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The given EVs ensure you outrun Choice Scarf Heatran, Jolly Gyarados after a Dragon Dance, and the occasional +1 positive-natured Base 80 speed Pokemon after an Agility. A 30 HP IV ensures that Petaya Berry activates on your fourth Substitute, and 24 Def ensures that Scizor won't be ruining your fun, bar a rare Choice Band Quick Attack. Grass Knot and Ice Beam each cover some key Water resists.
It should be third, I know other people have mentioned it, but you still haven't changed it.Also, CB Quick Attack does 18% minimum. Meaning that if Empoleon has taken SR Damage and used Agility on your opponents switch, then substituted down to Petaya range, it will be in range for CB Quick Attack.
 
excuse me; the subpetaya spread is stupid

comparing new spread to old spread (after moving 8 evs into speed)

hp/def evs (hp iv): 0/16 (30 hp iv) vs 12/4 (31 hp iv) holding sdef constant
hp/def/sdef stats: 308/216/238 vs 312/213/238

physical defense product: 66528 vs 66456
physical defense change: +0.108%

special defense product: 73304 vs 74256
special defense change: -1.299%

you gain a tenth of a percent of physical defense but lose over ten times that much in special defense. worth it? i think not.

finally - let's consider the only justification for the spread given in the set's comments. to 4 defense empoleon, 591 atk scizor deals 44-52 damage with bullet punch. to 16 defense empoleon, 591 atk scizor deals... wait for it... 44-52 damage with bullet punch. you are, hands down (barring weird rounding with the non-uniform rng lol), worse off against scizor's bullet punch with the current spread.

unless i made a grave mathematical error (relatively unlikely but possible) or a stupid pokelogic mistake (a lot more likely but i don't think i screwed up), i'd also like the on-site spread to be changed since for some reason (and i would like to know who/why) it has the same 30 hp ivs shenanigans. the old spread of 12 hp 12 defense 252 special attack 232 speed was good (if no one wants to shift 8 out of defense into speed and write the corresponding text).

edit: what i meant by the last part was that i think a spread of 12 hp 4 defense 252 special attack 240 speed is best, but that requires whoever fixes it to write a bit of text describing the new spread. it's like two sentences though so it should be done.
 
"When you consider how useful Scarf Rotom's perfect counter, Tyranitar, is, it becomes even less appealing as an option."

Rewrite that one, as with the commas it's rather ugly.

A better alternative to running Timid is to team Empoleon up with Scarf Tyranitar, who can trap and eliminate Scarf Rotom that would try to revenge you.
 

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