Generation 5 Uber threatlist [GP 2/2]

firecape said:

The OP is updated. A few issues though:

@Venser: Latios and Latias do not get Soul Dew as of yet this generation. I would normally fix issues when I C/P them, but this is a rather big fix so I would recommend you make it. I also already caught the Terakion mistake you pointed out ;). Regarding the Scizor mix up, I would recommend getting in contact with shrang to see if there is anything he would like to add to it, and then telling me. There's no use in having shrang rewrite it now that it's done in my opinion, just try to be more careful.

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Oh, man! Thanks for pointing that out, I'll fix it.


Latias - Link coming when we have dex pages
Type: Dragon / Psychic
Base Stats: 80 HP / 90 Atk / 80 Def / 110 SpA / 130 SpD / 110 Spe
Ability: Levitate

Latias plays similarly to her brother Latios, but with some major differences. Superior bulk and enough attacking power to rip through stuff, and access to Calm Mind and recovery means that she often gets the bulky sweeper teamslot. Latias shares many of the same flaws with Latios; having a low defense stat means that she is easily trapped by the likes of Tyranitar and Scizor. Latias can also play a support role on teams; access to moves like Wish, Reflect, and Light Screen makes her a great addition to heavy offense teams. Overall Latias isn't as threatening a sweeper as Latios but better bulk and more support options means she often sees play over Latios.


Latios - Link coming when we have dex pages
Type: Dragon / Psychic
Base Stats: 80 HP / 90 Atk / 80 Def / 130 SpA / 110 SpD / 110 Spe
Ability: Levitate

Latios is one of the best sweepers in Ubers, but has a few key drawbacks. With decent defenses and incredible special attack, Latios can be either a bulky attacker or a set-up sweeper. Calm Mind plus a base 110 speed means that Latios can easily sweep teams. Its drawbacks include weaknesses to trappers such as Scizor and Tyranitar, and an unfortunate weakness to U-Turns. However, base 110 speed is quite fast, and a wide movepool (including Recover) means that this is a definite threat in Ubers.

Fixed?

Also, Heracross is done. I guess I'll reserve Manaphy.



Heracross - Link coming when we have dex pages
Type: Bug / Fighting
Base Stats: 80 HP / 125 Atk / 75 Def / 40 SpA / 95 SpD / 85 Spe
Ability: Swarm / Guts / Overconfidence (unreleased)

Heracross is seen in Ubers for one main reason: it's almost a hard counter to Darkrai. Heracross resists the two common moves seen on Darkrai, Focus Blast and Dark Pulse, and by giving it Sleep Talk, it can hit it for super-effective damage with either of its two STABs with a guts boost thrown in, dealing huge damage to other things as well. In addition to countering Darkrai, Heracross can slap on a Choice Scarf and become a great revenge-killer and trapper, dealing super-effective damage to the many Psychic- and Ghost-typed Pokemon in the tier. Despite its low usage, if your team pivots on Darkrai Heracross must be considered.

Manaphy is taken. Please check the OP!

firecape said:

Manaphy is taken. Please check the OP!

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Wow, getting up at 4 is starting to catch up to me. I guess it'll be Water Arceus, then.


Water Arceus - link coming when we have dex pages
Type: Water
Base Stats: 120 HP / 120 Atk / 120 Def / 120 SpA / 120 SpD / 120 Spe
Ability: Multitype

With it's mono-water typing, Water Arceus often competes with Kyogre for team slots, but it is a fearsome sweeper both under and out of the rain. Under the rain, Water-type attacks receive a Splash Plate, STAB, and rain boost, making them incredibly powerful coming off a base 120 Attack or Special Attack. Dragon Arceus can run Swords Dance and Calm Mind sets effectively, with a wide movepool and access to Recover. Its incredible bulk also allows the possibility of a tanking set, which is seen less commonly than the sweepers, but is good to have outs to as well.


Water Arceus is done, reserving Dragon Arceus.

Dragon Arceus - link coming when we have dex pages
Type: Dragon
Base Stats: 120 HP / 120 Atk / 120 Def / 120 SpA / 120 SpD / 120 Spe
Ability: Multitype

Dragon Arceus is a fearsome threat indeed in the Ubers tier. Its signature move, Judgment is a 180 base power Dragon-type attack without drawbacks, which does massive damage to anything not a steel type. A movepool that includes Flamethrower, Calm Mind, and Recover means that is an incredible bulky Calm Minder, and it isn't too shabby on the physical side with Swords Dance and Dragon Claw. Dragon Arceus must be considered when teambuilding, as unprepared teams will be ripped to shreds.

Dragon Arceus is done, but I can expand a little more if you feel that it is too short. Reserving Magnezone. Arcei are boring to write up :/

HD said:

Palkia's typing is even better. The Water/Dragon STAB combo hits everything for at least neutral except Nattorei, Empoleon, Shedinja and Magnezone.

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Magnezone is neutral to water.

Venser: what is Water Arceus doing with SD that other Arceus can't do better, and please check your usage of the word "it."

imperfectluck said:

Magnezone is neutral to water.

Venser: what is Water Arceus doing with SD that other Arceus can't do better, and please check your usage of the word "it."

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Well, in the rain, it gets double STAB Waterfall.

Reserving Venusaur. Will be done later today, need to do stuff around the house.

Kyogre
Type: Water
Base Stats: 100 / 100 / 90 / 150 / 140 / 90
Ability: Drizzle

With its monstrous base 150 Special Attack and the ability to create permanent rain to boost its STAB, Kyogre is just as much of a terror as it was in Gen 4. Factoring in STAB and the boost from rain, all Water-type attacks that Kyogre uses are boosted to 2.25 times there normal power. This would make even weaker Water-type moves fearsome, let alone the powerful moves that Kyogre has. The most notable of these is Water Spout, which has an enormous BP of 337 at full health. It also has other strong Water-type attacks like Hydro Pump, Surf, and Boiling Water. These allow Kyogre to effectively pull off Choice Specs or Choice Scarf sets extremely well. Kyogre also has access to move like Roar, Calm Mind, Thunder Wave, and Rest/Sleep Talk that can allow it to pull off several bulky sets as well.



Manaphy
Type: Water
Base Stats: 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100
Ability: Hydration

While Manaphy stats are not awe inspiring in any way, it is still a potent threat within the Uber tier. With the incredible boost that Tail Glow received in Gen 5, Manaphy can get +3 Special Attack in one turn. While not as useful as it was in Gen 4, Manaphy can also use Calm Mind fairly well. However, Calm Mind is often outclassed because of the immense power boost that Tail Glow now brings. Manaphy has access to a couple powerful Water-type moves to help it abuse the rain boost, most notable being Surf and Boiling Water. Aside from boosting Manaphy's STAB even further, Rain helps Manaphy even more through its ability. Hydration automatically cures it of all status when there is rain, which is ever present with the reign of Kyogre. This allows Manaphy to recover to full health using Rest without any consequences, as well as being immune to ToxicStall and Darkrai's Dark Void.

Sazandora is done, reserving Lucario.


Sazandora - Link coming when we have dex pages
Type: Dark / Dragon
Base Stats: 92 HP / 105 Atk / 95 Def / 125 SpA / 90 SpD / 98 Spe
Ability: Levitate

Sazandora's stats may not lead you to believe that it is a threatening Pokemon in any way, the fact that it has a very wide movepool can make it a very effective wallbreaker or simply a clean-up sweeper. Very respectable bulk combined with decent attacking stats from both sides of the spectrum mean that it is often seen running mixed attacking sets, as well as choice sets with Draco Meteor and U-turn. Having Dark as a secondary STAB is very useful in Ubers, allowing you to hit many Pokemon in the tier for super-effective damage. It can even stall Pokemon with Torment! All in all, Sazandora is a very potent threat that threatens to rip through unprepared teams.

Venusaur is done:

Venusaur
Grass/Poison
Base Stats: 80 HP / 82 Atk / 83 Def / 100 SpA / 100 SpD / 80 Spe
Ability: Overgrow / Chlorophyll

in the past, Venusaur's speed has been a major issue in its performance, as it leaves it unable to deal with faster pokemon. The Dream World ability Chlorophyll, however, completely erases that problem. In addition to its speed doubling thanks to permanent sun from Groudon, Venusaur has access to both Swords Dance and Growth, the latter of which boosts Attack and Special Attack by 2 in the Sun. With either of these moves, Venusaur is easily able to run a special, physical, or mixed set. Venusaur's typing also gives it the ability to absorb Toxic Spikes, making life easier for the rest of your team.

Ok I've done a quick skim of the 600 whatever Pokemon and added a few to the list. If you know a few that you think are worthy for this threatlist, but don't actually want to write them, speak up please.

Reserving Quagsire.

EDIT:

Yeah, I let Venser take Scizor and told him to be more careful next time (Just take his entry), here's Qwilfish.


Qwilfish
Type: Water / Poison
Base Stats: 65 HP / 95 Atk / 75 Def / 55 SpA / 55 SpD / 85 Spe
Ability: Swift Swim / Poison Point / Intimidate (Unreleased)

While Qwilfish might look just like a throw-away Swift Swimmer, its movepool makes it much deadlier than it looks. With access to Swords Dance, Qwilfish can, with the aid of Wobbuffet, set up and sweep unprepared Ubers teams with boosted Attack, double-STAB Waterfalls and blistering Speed. What makes Qwilfish more appealing than a Pokemon like Kabutops is the extra speed and ability to hit Grass-types super effectively with its secondary STAB. Aside from sweeping, Qwilfish is the fastest Spiker in the rain, and with other moves like Taunt, Explosion and Destiny Bond, Qwilfish can act as an effective stall-breaker by absorbing Toxic Spikes, using Taunt on a wall, setting up Spikes or Toxic Spikes then use a speedy Destiny Bond when he's about to die.

EDIT: Reserving Metagross and Doryuuzu

I hate to say it but I honestly don't believe that Quagsire deserves a spot on this threat list. Storm Drain now heals 25% when hit with a Water-type move and raises SpA by 1 stage, this means that Gastrodon can now do Quagsire's job but better. Gastrodon has more overall bulk than Quagsire; a significantly higher amount of HP and SpD, a lower Def stat that can easily be fixed with some EV investment. The only thing Quagsire has that Gastrodon doesn't is Encore, which is not nearly as effective as it was last gen. As opposed to 5-8 turns, it has been reduced to a flat 3 turns, which means it's pretty much useless.

Just my 2 cents.

Yeah I was kinda thinking the same thing locopoke posted, even though I put it in the OP. Sorry Don Honchkrorleone its going to be taken off. Thanks for the work though!

firecape said:

Yeah I was kinda thinking the same thing locopoke posted, even though I put it in the OP. Sorry Don Honchkrorleone its going to be taken off. Thanks for the work though!

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No big deal :)

Anyway, reserving Shedinja.

Reserving Poison Arceus will be done later today.

Edit

Poison Arceus - Link coming when Dex pages are up.
Type: Poison
Base Stats: 120 HP / 120 Atk / 120 Def / 120 SpA / 120 SpD / 120 Spe
Ability: Multitype

Although Poison has always been considered a sub par typing due to a lack of offensive coverage being resisted or immune by 5 Types, 4 of which are common in Ubers and only being Super Effective against one type which is rather rare, but Poison Arceus has a unique niche in Ubers. Poison Arceus brings Solid resists, good bulk and the ability to Calm Mind up on Blissey with out the use of Substitute. It is also the only viable Toxic Spikes absorber in Ubers making it hard for Stall Teams to do significant damage to your grounded Sweepers. Poison Arceus is able Calm Mind effectively with the combination of Judgement, Focus Blast and Recover and be an effective Supporter with its unique resists and odd typing.

I hope this enough, it can be expanded more if needed.

I'll take Ice Arceus, Bronzong and Gastrodon.

WIll get the lot done after I get back from classes today.

Garchomp
Type: Dragon / Ground
Base Stats: 108 HP / 130 Atk / 95 Def / 80 SpA / 85 SpD / 102 Spe
Ability: Sand Veil / Rough Skin (unreleased)

Garchomp remains relatively unchanged in the generation transition, which, of course, is certainly not a bad thing. Although it has a shallow movepool, its amazing dual STABs provide it with near-perfect coverage. It can nail all but Steel-type Pokemon with powerful Dragon-type attacks, and fall back on Earthquake when needed. Its unique 102 Speed stat allows it to outspeed a great number of Dragon-type Pokemon, allowing for great use of a Swords Dance or Choice Band set. Garchomp is also a great user of the item Choice Scarf, outspeeding most other Scarfers in the tier. Garchomp can also use Stone Edge, Dragon Claw, and Fire Fang to augment its coverage.

Arceus
Ice
Base Stats: 120 HP / 120 Atk / 120 Def / 120 SpA / 120 SpD / 120 Spe
Ability: Multitype

Ice Arceus was always one of the black horses of the Arceus types, and it is no different this generation. STAB Judgement combines with Thunder for excellent coverage on its best set, the Calm Minder. It suffers unfortunately from a Stealth Rock weakness, which gives a massive blow to its bulk. However, a judiciously played Ice Arceus can play past this problem, and it remains an important threat.


Bronzong
Steel/Psychic
Base Stats: 67 HP / 89 Attack / 116 Def / 79 SpA / 116 SpD / 33 Spe
Ability: Levitate / Heatproof / Heavy Metal*

Bronzong is one of the more uncommon threats in Ubers, but cannot be ignored. Its main purpose is to set up Trick Room and act as a general team supporter, though it can also hold a Life Orb and sweep under Trick Room with STAB Gyro Ball and Earthquake complementing each other very well. Outside of setting up Trick Room, Bronzong is generally outclassed in all of its other jobs by the denizens of Ubers, so if you see a Bronzong, it is a ssafe bet to assume it is going to set up Trick Room.


Gastrodon
Water/Ground
Base Stats: 111 HP / 83 Atk / 68 Def / 92 SpA / 82 SpD / 39 Spe
Ability: Sticky Hold / Storm Drain / Sand Strength*

Gastrodon has just one niche in Ubers: The ability to utterly wall Kyogre outside of using Ice Beam, which will not do too much damage to it. Gastrodon's best set in Ubers is Surf / Ice Beam / Earth Power / Recover, and works best with scouting. Switch Gastrodon into Kyogre's water-type attack, then use your knowledge of the opponent's team to appropriately attack and take a chunk out of his switch in. ALl of this necessitates the ability Storm Drain. Outside of being a counter to Kyogre, Gastrodon has no other uses in Ubers however.

Lucario is done. I guess I'll reserve Jumpluff (erufuun is better though >.<)


Lucario (link to come)
Base Stats: 70 HP / 110 Atk / 70 Def / 115 SpA / 70 SpD / 90 Spe
Ability: Inner Focus / Steadfast / Justice Heart (Unreleased)

Lucario is not one of the most commonly-seen sweepers in Ubers, but that does not mean that one should not prepare for it. Lucario's almost unique typing grants it resistances to Dark, Ghost, Dragon, and Ice, as well as several other attacking types, and it can come in on these attacks and set up with Swords Dance or Agility. What's more, he is a fantastic anti-lead, taking on many of the common leads with super-effective hits or Countering attacks like Groudon's Earthquake. Lucario's defenses let it down, but if played correctly, Lucario is a viable threat.

Magnezone is done, I'll reserve ummm Flying Arceus. If I can reserve a third I'd also like to reserve Ninjask.


Magnezone (link to come)
Type: Steel / Electric
Base Stats: 70 / 70 / 115 / 130 / 90 / 60
Ability: Magnet Pull / Sturdy / Analyze (unreleased)

Magnezone holds a specific niche in Ubers for one reason: its ability, Magnet Pull, allows it to trap and kill steel types with a combination of Hidden Power Fire and Thunder/Thunderbolt. This allows it to make life easier on Choiced sweepers, removing Pokemon immune to or resisting the sweeper's moves. In addition, a fantastic base 115 Defense means that it can switch in on Outrages and other attacks coming from Steels. Lastly, its movepool does not lack outside of attacking moves, allowing it to use Light Screen and Reflect to aid sweepers. Overall, Magnezone must be considered if one relies on Steel-type Pokemon to prevent sweeps.


Ninjask is done.


Ninjask (link to come)
Type: Bug / Flying
Base Stats: 61 / 90 / 45 / 50 / 50 / 160
Ability: Speed Boost / Slip Through (unreleased)

With the second highest speed in the game (beaten only by Deoxys-S), Ninjask is unfortunately let down by its other stats. However, it does hold a specific niche in Ubers. That is, Ninjask is the only Pokemon in the game with access to the ability Speed Boost, which boosts Speed by 1.5 each turn, and Baton Pass. In addition to this, Ninjask has a movepool perfect for a Baton Passer, including Swords Dance and Substitute. Its downfalls, however, are a base 90 Attack stat which can't really do much damage and a 4x weakness to Stealth Rock. Because of this, it is often seen in the lead spot holding either a Focus Sash or a Pinch Berry.

Jumpluff is done, I'll reserve Psychic Arceus.



Jumpluff (link to come)
Type: Grass / Flying
Base Stats: 75 / 55 / 70 / 55 / 85 / 110
Ability: Chlorophyll / Leaf Guard / Slip Through (unreleased)

Jumpluff may seem outclassed by Erufuun in every single way, but Jumpluff has a few key advantages over Erufuun. First of all is the fact that Jumpluff has access to Sleep Powder, which allows it to shut down some sweepers much more reliably using a combination of Sleep Powder and Stun Spore. It can still be an extremely fast SubSeeder and Annoyer under the sun due to its ability Chlorophyll, which allows Jumpluff to reach 700 Speed. As such, it is more useful on sun-based teams with Groudon support. Lastly, it has a myriad of support options cut off from Erufuun, such as Reflect and Memento.

Psychic Arceus is done. I think Charizard deserves to be mentioned with Solar Power, can I reserve it?



Psychic Arceus - link coming when we have dex pages
Type: Psychic
Base Stats: 120 HP / 120 Atk / 120 Def / 120 SpA / 120 SpD / 120 Spe
Ability: Multitype


Psychic-typed Arceus has a few drawbacks that prevent its usage from being as high as the other types, but has some specific uses. It is a very good counter to Poison and Fighting Arceus, and due to its great bulk can be an excellent Calm Minder. The poor coverage of Psychic lets down Arceus somewhat as well. Mewtwo is faster and has Aura Sphere instead of the inaccurate Focus Blast, which makes it the chosen Pokemon most of the time. Psychic Arceus is in no way bad, but other Arceus are simply better options the majority of the time. However, it is still a potent threat, and must be prepared for.

Just posting say that Qwilfish and Skarmory's Dream World abilities have been released.

shrang said:

Just posting say that Qwilfish and Skarmory's Dream World abilities have been released.

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I could see niche usage of Intimidate on Qwilfish, but Swift Swim and Sturdy are better than the DW abilities respectively. Also, should we consider a writeup for Blaziken, as it's basically a better Ninjask, now that it has Speed Boost and access to SD and Agility, as well as better attacking stats? I've convinced myself typing this up ^^

edit: Flying Arceus is done. Reserving Blaziken.



Flying Arceus - link coming when we have dex pages
Type: Flying
Base Stats: 120 HP / 120 Atk / 120 Def / 120 SpA / 120 SpD / 120 Spe
Ability: Multitype

Flying Arceus may not immediately look worthy of a slot on a team, when one takes into account its nasty Stealth Rock weakness and poor mono-flying defensive and offensive typing, but upon closer examination it is definitely a threat. Flying Arceus has very good bulk with base 120 HP and 120 in both defensive stats, which it can use alongside hard-to-break Substitutes and Calm Mind to pose a threatening mono-attack sweeper with a 180 Base Power Judgment. However, Flying Arceus isn't only a one-trick pony, as it can also run Swords Dance alongside Cosmic Powers from the other side of the attacking spectrum. Flying Arceus might be one of the lesser-used Arceus, but this doesn't mean that it isn't effective at what it does.

Destiny Warrior said:

Gastrodon
Water/Ground
Base Stats: 111 HP / 83 Atk / 68 Def / 92 SpA / 82 SpD / 39 Spe
Ability: Sticky Hold / Storm Drain / Sand Strength*

Gastrodon has just one niche in Ubers: The ability to utterly wall Kyogre outside of using Ice Beam, which will not do too much damage to it. Gastrodon's best set in Ubers is Surf / Ice Beam / Earth Power / Recover, and works best with scouting. Switch Gastrodon into Kyogre's water-type attack, then use your knowledge of the opponent's team to appropriately attack and take a chunk out of his switch in. ALl of this necessitates the ability Storm Drain. Outside of being a counter to Kyogre, Gastrodon has no other uses in Ubers however.

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This is all wrong. First and most importantly the moveset. You make it sound like Gastrodon is going to be sweeping teams with +1 SpA. That moveset is not the best moveset for Gastrodon, the one you want to use is Toxic / Yawn / Recover / Ice Beam. The SpA boost from Storm Drain isn't really what this set is built around, it's the immunity to 3/4 of Kyogre's attacks and exploiting that with Yawn and Toxic to rack up entry hazard damage. Gastrodon makes Kyogre an inconvenience to your opponent and it weighs down their team, allowing Gastrodon to ruin their game plan.

Gastrodon may not have any other uses with the moveset you specified, but with my moveset he does. While it's true, most of his uses stem from the ability to perfectly counter Kyogre, in most cases he can do much more than that. While it helps, Gastrodon can still be very useful if your opponent's team doesn't include Kyogre. He's very hard to kill and takes most players by surprise. He can switch into choice Electric- and Water-type attacks, Yawn the switch-in and recover off any damage. If used with Spikes support, he can be deadly.

Metagross
Steel / Psychic
Base Stats: 80 HP / 135 Atk / 130 Def / 95 SpA / 90 SpD / 70 Spe
Ability: Clear Body / Light Metal (Unreleased)

Metagross is virtually everything you want from a sturdy tank. The Steel-typing gives it many resistances (including the prized Dragon resist) while the high base 135 Attack makes foes think twice before trying to set up on it. Metagross can fill many jobs for an Ubers team. It can set up Stealth Rock and act as a decent anti-lead by taking out many of the common Ubers leads with a combination of Meteor Mash and Bullet Punch. It can use a Choice Scarf and revenge kill dangerous threats, don a Choice Band and nuke opposing Pokemon with its powerful attacks, or even use Agility to attempt a late game sweep.



Doryuuzu
Steel / Ground
Base Stats: 110 HP / 135 Atk / 60 Def / 50 SpA / 65 SpD / 88 Spe
Ability: Sand Throw / Sand Power / Mold Breaker (Unreleased)

Doryuuzu is possibly one of the most fearsome sweepers to exist. In the Sand, it is capable of reaching outspeeding even Choice Scarf Mewtwo, and with Swords Dance, any Pokemon that cannot remove the weather or possess a priority move is going to get hurt. Even Groudon needs to be careful of its health as it too is 2HKOed by Swords Danced Earthquake. Outside of sweeping, Doryuuzu is a fantastic offensive Spinner, since it can break through virtually all Ghost-types, even the Giratina formes and pull of a Rapid Spin.

Charizard is done, I'll stick a placeholder in for Primeape. IMO Infernape doesn't really deserve to be on the list, as all it had really over Blaziken was higher speed, which Speed Boost remedies.

Charizard - link coming when we have dex pages
Type: Fire/Flying
Base Stats: 78 HP / 84 Atk / 78 Def / 109 SpA / 85 SpD / 100 Spe
Ability: Blaze / Solar Power
Charizard may not seem like a threatening Pokemon, being doomed to NU for the last generation, but it received a nice boost in the ability Solar Power. This makes Charizard a devastating sweeper under the infinite sun brought by Groudon. The most common set usually has a Choice Scarf slapped on, and is an excellent revenge-killer. However, Charizard's unfortunate typing means that it takes 50% from Stealth Rocks upon switching in, and as such is not used as commonly. Nonetheless Charizard is able to punch holes in teams unprepared for it.

If any of you think I'm reserving pokemon that don't see enough play, just let me know.