Data State of the Game - 6/10/2011

It's a common tactic, which is easily resolved. Only give counters out to a mon when it is KOed, and no TC until the match ends. This solves the problem quite neatly.

Banryu said:

Metal Bagon said:

The only one I disagree with is the implantation of not being able to evolve mid-battle. This is Anime Style Battling and do Pokemon evolve mid battle, YES.

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By this logic, Pokemon should be able to learn moves in-battle if they have the MC for it. One particularly absurd example I recall is when Ash's Noctowl suddenly learned Confusion mid-battle with gym leader Morty, without which he was on the fast track to losing that match. :0 I dunno about you, but that doesn't seem quite right to me.

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Youv'e actually conviced me there, good point Banryu.

Tortferngatr said:

Add Drill Run to Colossoil's Gen V levelup movepool. This is 100% a flavor implementation (along with a buff for raids), but about as obvious as one can get.
Add Flash, Swords Dance, and Rock Slide back into the Embirch line's 5th Gen TM movepool. Embirch's family gets all of these by gen 4 TM and they maintain their gen 5 TM status, but for some reason they are not listed in Embirch's Gen V movepool, or for that matter, Flarelm/Pyroak's.

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I agree with both of these 100% percent, but there's another CAP movepool addition I'd like to propose:

Give Stratagem Icy Wind, somehow. I don't care if it's by level-up or by retroactive 4th gen tutor, it doesn't make sense that Stratagem doesn't get this move. It already gets Heat Wave and Omnious Wind by 4th gen tutor, so it makes sense that Stratagem would also get Icy Wind. In-Game precedent against this is held by Flying types and Fire types who shouldn't get icy wind anyway. The Pokemon that do get icy wind by 4th gen Tutor that aren't water or ice types have fairly large special attacking movepools, which Stratagem also qualifies for.

Add Dragon Pulse to the Cyclohm Line's Level-up Movepool. Otherwise Cyclohm has no level-up access to any Dragon-Type attacks besides Twister, and with Dragon Pulse stripped of its TM status, a 5th gen Cyclohm has no way of getting a reliable special dragon move whatsoever.

For Dragon Pulse you can still get it, it just costs 3 MC instead of 2. And the line hardly needs it; once they get Sheer Force their coverage moves often hit harder (even without Sheer Force STAB Dragon Pulse is only equal in power to Fire Blast and Hydro Pump, though admittedly with better accuracy). It's not an urgent concern. As for Icy Wind, it doesn't really matter to me, though since Stratagem has Technician there may have been a competitive reason for omitting it (and at the end of the day competitive reasoning>flavour reasoning).

For Dragon Pulse it is a flavor reason why it should be in the level-up movepool, or at least among its egg moves. If you were in gamefreak designing Monohm and family's movepool for Pokemon Black and White, it'd be odd that a special attacking dragon wouldn't get access to dragon pulse outside a TM from a past generation. It's the same reason why we gave Stratagem Gige Drain in its 5th gen level-up movepool.

As for Stratagem's Icy Wind, most Stratagem carry HP Ice now, which has the same base power as technician-boosted Icy Wind. The most it would amount to is allowing Stratagem a different typed Hidden Power. It's not the biggest deal competitively. Besides, in battling servers, Icy Wind has 55 base power, giving Stratagem an 82.5 base power ice move after technician. I don't really see the competitive reason for omitting that when Hidden Power can outclass it and STAB ancient-power/Paleo Wave hits harder most of the time anyway. That's just my case for the move, though.

Eh, I still can't see any of the movepools changing. The simple fact of the matter is that we use the CAPs the way they are given to us by the CAP project. ASB is supposed to have 0 influence on CAP, so I doubt any of the CAP movepools will be changed, for flavour reasons or otherwise.

RE: Movepool additions:

NO

When the game began they needed a fleshing out so I gave them one, mostly autocratically. If I missed something it's pretty much TDB (Too Damn Bad) unless the main CAP Forum wants to do a 5th Gen Movepool update, or I get the approval of Dusk/Wyv for an official process of some kind. Otherwise you're stuck with what I initially gave them. Scratchet/Tomohawk got the benefit of being 5th Gen CAPs, so their movepool is what it is.

RE: Torment:

I have used moves that are effective consecutively once, but I can see the point of how its not quite limiting in an all-moves format. My solution is twofold. Make Torment sort of a localized global effect (which I'm reducing to 4 rounds) like a reverse Safeguard, and making it so a Pokemon cannot repeat a move during a round. This would be the result:

Torment: The Pokemon taunts and mocks the foe, enraging them and preventing the opponent from using the same attack twice in any given round, or repeat the final action of the previous round as the first action of the current round. This effect lasts for four (4) rounds. If the Pokemon is switched out, the effect ends.

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 10 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Dark | Priority: 0

RE: Hidden Power Change:

Alright, I can buy Dusk's argument, as far as a matter of cost, I'm thinking 7 TC. You'd have to ref a 4vs4 Doubles or a 3vs3 Singles match for it, which is a significant amount of work.

A few more clarifications:

Multi-hit moves and Substitute:

Multi-Hit moves aimed at a Substitute will do spillover damage. Basically if a Multi-Hit move does enough damage to break a Sub, the remaining damage will affect the target's HP directly, EG. If an opponents Sub has 5 HP left and a multi-hit move is used and does 10 damage, Substitute will take 5 HP Damage and the target will take 5 damage.

I realize in-game it's a bit more nuanced, but since the attacks are aggregated this is the only simple solution.

Battle Slots and User Profiles:

In order to get a better look at what's going on, I'd like to implement a format change on profiles to include this section:


Increasing Stat boost to +2.

There's been a fair few complaints about the ineffectiveness of stat boosters. I'd like some feedback on a suggestion to move them to +2 each stage rather than +1.5.

Well, I calculated it and, if I use Swords Dance for 7 energy on action 2 of round 1, then use all physical moves until the boost wears off completely at the end of round 3, then I overall do 4+4+4+4+2+2+2=22 more damage in that time. This is equivalent both in power and energy cost to a 12 BP STAB super effective move. It comes out to 18 damage if you use it on action 3 of round 1 and 14 damage if you use it on action 1 of round 1.

Objection said:

Well, I calculated it and, if I use Swords Dance for 7 energy on action 2 of round 1, then use all physical moves until the boost wears off completely at the end of round 3, then I overall do 4+4+4+4+2+2+2=22 more damage in that time. This is equivalent both in power and energy cost to a 12 BP STAB super effective move. It comes out to 18 damage if you use it on action 3 of round 1 and 14 damage if you use it on action 1 of round 1.

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Alright, hmmm.

Various values for stat boosting:

Value: +1s, +2s, +3s, +4s, +5s, +6s
1.50: 1.50, 3.00, 4.50, 6.00, 7.50, 9.00
1.75: 1.75, 3.50, 5.25, 7.00, 8.75, 10.5
2.00: 2.00, 4.00, 6.00, 8.00, 10.00, 12.0

The +6 Values are also the maximum impact (6 actions) of a +1 Boost

+2 Stage with maximum impact:

(N = Null, B = Boosting turn)

N + B + 3
3 + 3 + 3
1.5 + 1.5 + 1.5

Total 16.5

N + B + 3.5
3.5 + 3.5 + 3.5
1.75 + 1.75 + 1.75

Total: 19.25

N + B + 4
4 + 4 + 4
2 + 2 + 2

Total: 22

2 per stage seems to end a bit high, even if the EC was adjusted upward. It only gets worse with the few moves that are +3. Which is Tail Glow, and only Syclant really has the stats to abuse it, though Volbeat is no slouch. 1.75 seems like a decent middle ground.

Why is it that stage boosts aren't multiplied by type effectiveness? It's something I've just accepted throughout my time here but moving it into the main brackets would certainly make stage boosts a lot more viable.

Spoke to Deck and confirmed some new rules about DQs.

1: When a player/Referee is DQed, they forfeit all counters they would have earned, including TC and KOC for players.

2: When a player is DQed, any Pokemon belonging to a non-DQed player that hasn't been sent into play gains counters as if they did.

Example: 3v3, 1 Pokemon sent out on each side before a DQ happens. The player not getting DQed gets 1 EC, 1 DC, and 2 MC for each of his 2 benched Pokemon.

In the case of a 2v2, only two Pokemon get counters, even when required to send 3 potential Pokemon, and in a 1v1, there's no award.

deadfox081 said:

Why is it that stage boosts aren't multiplied by type effectiveness? It's something I've just accepted throughout my time here but moving it into the main brackets would certainly make stage boosts a lot more viable.

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The problem with stat boosts is that inside W/R they're way too powerful, as it's basically a weather boost on all attacks for less energy, and can be stacked or built up. Breloom for example could Swords Dance and then gain insane amounts of healing with Drain Punch, since if it were super-effective it wouldn't gain 1.5 HP, it'd gain 4.5 HP.

Also confirming the DQ penalties SDS posted.

Deck Knight said:

The problem with stat boosts is that inside W/R they're way too powerful, as it's basically a weather boost on all attacks for less energy, and can be stacked or built up. Breloom for example could Swords Dance and then gain insane amounts of healing with Drain Punch, since if it were super-effective it wouldn't gain 1.5 HP, it'd gain 4.5 HP.

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That's mostly what I thought it would be, but taking the semi-extreme case of Drain Punch out of the equation moving it inside the brackets would reward the use more. That same Breloom using Seed Bomb against a water type after a Swords Dance would gain 4.5 extra damage, as opposed to 3 currently, or 4 with your proposed changes. The only time it becomes heavily weighted is when a 4x effective move is used. Swords Dance still costs 7 energy, and you can only get the full boost for 4 actions at most. Just some thoughts, but in most cases I think moving it into the effectiveness bracket is close to equal to making it a 2 times multiplier.

Seven Deadly Sins said:

Spoke to Deck and confirmed some new rules about DQs.

1: When a player/Referee is DQed, they forfeit all counters they would have earned, including TC and KOC for players.

2: When a player is DQed, any Pokemon belonging to a non-DQed player that hasn't been sent into play gains counters as if they did.

Example: 3v3, 1 Pokemon sent out on each side before a DQ happens. The player not getting DQed gets 1 EC, 1 DC, and 2 MC for each of his 2 benched Pokemon.

In the case of a 2v2, only two Pokemon get counters, even when required to send 3 potential Pokemon, and in a 1v1, there's no award.

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I completely agree with this Deck! Does it count for my battle I had or not? (Cross fingers)

Yeah, tbh, I think a 4.5 damage increase is too much. For 7 energy you're doing up to 4.5*4+2.25*3=24.75 more damage. To my knowledge, no move that costs 7 energy does that amount of damage unless the target is 4x weak to it (and against 4x weak mons a Swords Dance boost would give 6.75*4+3.375*3=37.125 damage - an insane amount of damage for 7 energy). If there is one, it's probably got a huge drawback like sucky accuracy. The energy cost for stat-boosting and stat-lowering moves (outside of speed, accuracy and evasion) would need a significant increase. Swords Dance would probably cost 10 energy and Tail Glow 12 energy.

Seven Deadly Sins said:

Spoke to Deck and confirmed some new rules about DQs.

1: When a player/Referee is DQed, they forfeit all counters they would have earned, including TC and KOC for players.

2: When a player is DQed, any Pokemon belonging to a non-DQed player that hasn't been sent into play gains counters as if they did.

Example: 3v3, 1 Pokemon sent out on each side before a DQ happens. The player not getting DQed gets 1 EC, 1 DC, and 2 MC for each of his 2 benched Pokemon.

In the case of a 2v2, only two Pokemon get counters, even when required to send 3 potential Pokemon, and in a 1v1, there's no award.

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Just Curious, but does this mean that the pokemon we used would gain their counters since one person DQd in our 2+2v2+2 here?

Seven Deadly Sins said:

Spoke to Deck and confirmed some new rules about DQs.

1: When a player/Referee is DQed, they forfeit all counters they would have earned, including TC and KOC for players.

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I somewhat disagree here - a person could have a loss of internet for a few days (This does sometimes happen), or another life event occur. I think that if a person has shown signs of activity when s/he is DQ'ed (Perhaps having been on within the DQ timeframe), then a punishment is fair. If they have suddenly vanished, no punishment should occur.

2: When a player is DQed, any Pokemon belonging to a non-DQed player that hasn't been sent into play gains counters as if they did.

Example: 3v3, 1 Pokemon sent out on each side before a DQ happens. The player not getting DQed gets 1 EC, 1 DC, and 2 MC for each of his 2 benched Pokemon.

In the case of a 2v2, only two Pokemon get counters, even when required to send 3 potential Pokemon, and in a 1v1, there's no award.

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I'm eternally worried about this being usable as a Token Farming technique - 6 v 6, 1 Day player DQ. Go for a couple of rounds, and in a week you've got a full set of EC/MC/DC on 6 mon.

Also, how would this work in conjunction with a match concluding as a DQ before 2 rounds?

There are still no counters given out if there are less than two rounds already, partially to stop the token farming you were talking about.

EDIT: Actually, I agree with Dogfish. It seems wrong to me too.

So, have a 6 v 6 singles, go through 2 or 3 rounds, DQ one guy. takes no more than a week with a ref ho follows DQ times, by the time most 1 v 1's haven't finished, you've got 6 full sets of counters on your mons. Farming - I dislike it.

On Stat Boosts:

Why not use them in the brackets, but in the Atk-Def/SpA-SpD part, making a pokemon with Attack 4, an Attack 6 after a Swords Dance, this makes it less abusable in brackets since you have to deal with the 5 limit of 1.5, making it max at 1.5 extra damage if SE and you've passed the limit

That is functionally the same as moving stat boosts into the brackets without them affecting ranks.

Not really, a Rank 4 pokemon in attack, if using Swords Dance, would get to Rank 6, dealing with the 5-1 limit, his "first" boost would get him +1.5, but it's "second" would only get +1, effectively giving a +2.5 (interestingl enough 2*1.75), but something in the rank 5 or above would only get a +2, making it max an extra 3 damage i SE (5 if 4x), something in the rank 2 or 3 is the best abuser, but they would only get to a rank 4 or 5 after it, not making them extra powerful pokemon considering they are week before it, altough i might be wrong if i'm missing something

Rank 2 or 3 mons are the best abusers, especially when up against other rank 2 or 3 mons. NFEs vs NFEs are pretty much all rank 2 and rank 3 until you factor nature into it. It might be a bit tamer among FEs though.

True..., well at least into Fully evolved pokes it might work

Also, could we get a boost in defensive boosts? thanks to 1.5 the bost is more likely than not a 1 boost thanks to rounding up damage that ends in .5, this makes attack boost way better than defensive ones thanks to that one extra damage instead of one extra non-damage
Boosts like cosmic power or calm mind only reduce the damage taken by one, while bulk up/hone claws increases damage in two thanks to rounding up
.

Or, we could do .5's as alternating between up and down to compensate for this.

Or, we could just not round at all (not recommended for the faint-hearted).

And I should probably stop posting here for now.