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Deoxys-S Tiering Discussion
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Well, I guess he could set up screens like Deoxys might have? That being said, couldn't Prankster tricking Deoxys a Scarf be a viable strategy? Can't outspeed, can't Magic Coat.
A lagging tail might work in a pinch.
You guys act as if playing against fast dual screen supporters has always been an excruciating problem. What sets Deoxys-S apart from similar Pokemon with the same strategy is its fast speed (oh sure using your fast speed to set up screens faster than your opponents should be broken) and relatively decent list of other options. It's a dual screener; it doesn't need such ridiculous dedicated counters to get around it. Avoid this area if possible.
Also, wow, the thread after Woodchuck's deduction. Just so you know he made a little fun of the defense, because it's all ADAPT JESUS.
Also, wow, the thread after Woodchuck's deduction. Just so you know he made a little fun of the defense, because it's all ADAPT JESUS.
The problem with this approach is since Deoxys-S is so fast, once the screens are stalled out it can still set them up again. The other thing is something that aldaron brought up earlier; Deoxys-S can switch out after it puts up the screens, and switch in again midgame to do it again. It makes it incredibly difficult to stop since Deoxys-S is the fastest dual screener in the tier, and can come in at will and set them up effortlessly. Azelf or Espeon can't really say they have the ability to do the same thing.
I would like to ban Deoxys-. Because Deoxys-S allows you to set-up one layer of hazards, something you usually can't prevent because it's just to freaking fast. And since the ban of Thundurus, there is no competitive user of Prankster in OU, that can't survive one hit from Deoxys and taunt it successfully.
Sure, you can try to play Tornadus non standard outside of a rain team, but the residual damage and even weakest attacks are bringing it down without even the use of Smack Down! And Deoxys can just BoltBeam it to oblivion, like Whimsicott, that faints from a super effective Ice Beam.
I just want to say, that it's not possible to prevent Deoxys from setting up, because it's just to fast. If you go with Scarftar it'll play a easy game with Superpower or it won't even start to avoid getting Crunch'd. Scarf Terrakion goes the same way, though he can 2HKO it, but then you're just setup-fodder for Skarmory or Forretress.
my couple cents,
LovelyTrio
Sure, you can try to play Tornadus non standard outside of a rain team, but the residual damage and even weakest attacks are bringing it down without even the use of Smack Down! And Deoxys can just BoltBeam it to oblivion, like Whimsicott, that faints from a super effective Ice Beam.
I just want to say, that it's not possible to prevent Deoxys from setting up, because it's just to fast. If you go with Scarftar it'll play a easy game with Superpower or it won't even start to avoid getting Crunch'd. Scarf Terrakion goes the same way, though he can 2HKO it, but then you're just setup-fodder for Skarmory or Forretress.
my couple cents,
LovelyTrio
While I agree that Deoxys-S can switch out, Deoxys-S can't really "switch in" on any attacks. If you're allowing Deoxys-S to switch in multiple times in a match, there is no way you are keeping any offensive pressure at all. I agree with AccidentalGreed; even Deoxys-S's immense speed doesn't seem to bring to the table enough extra to actually cause it to be broken. IMO the real cause of all of this concern over screens offense is the setup sweepers themselves. The options that hyper offense got have become very threatening, so giving them any kind of setup opportunity will make them much more difficult to handle.
However, that's the sweepers' fault. Last generation, we had dual screens offense readily available -- Azelf or Uxie could set up both screens relatively quickly and then go out with Explosion or Memento. The problem was, the sweepers just weren't devastating enough to attack with one turn of setup. The difference from last gen to this gen -- and, I guess, what the pro-ban people find problems with -- is that the setup sweepers this gen can wreak a lot more havoc than last gen.
But that's not Deoxys-S's fault. Moreover, I'm still not really convinced that those setup sweepers under screens are actually that broken of a scenario in themselves. It only puts you at somewhat of a temporary disadvantage -- in fact, I'd say the dual screens user is trading long-term momentum for short-term (aka sacrificing a valuable teamslot for a Pokemon that is often useless outside of one setup opportunity for the chance to bring about a devastating sweep). If your team is well-built you should be able to recover from this momentum loss and make your opponent pay for the sacrifices he/she had to make in order to fit Deoxys-S onto the team. Losing a teamslot to Deoxys-S only makes it more likely that there's a weakness in their team that you can exploit to your own gain.
in response to azumarill: i said under rain and it is blatently a 2hko when aqua jet will not hit blaziken for super effective when under sun.
deoxys-s isnt uber. but in my eyes pocket i dont believe excadrill/thundurus/blaziken/garchomp are uber either considering weather is constantly changing when there are viable sweepers for each climate. also it's what deoxys-s alone contributes to a competitive team. azelf cant threaten dragons or unexpected ohkos with either ice beam or psycho boost; not to mention coverage is well-rounded with thunderbolt and superpower. you can ev deoxys-s to be offensively powerful, yet the support sets equally contribute towards the game in such a manner its "role" so to speak has already been fullfilled by either ohkoing your pokemon or surviving your attack to set up once again.
if this was gen 4 he would have been long gone. we have crippled most weathers in one way or another and dragon offense/HO can be dealt with through means of solid team building and conservative play; two key elements in pokemon that we always strive to move forward in. whats left in this metagame are terrakion, reuniclus, volcarona, tornadus and haxorus who really captivate what bw has been about. stretching the limits to a certain point where diversity continues to grow, but without going "too" far; ie: giving volcarona magic guard!
fact is they dealt with one another and i was never too fussed after ss + drizzle was dealt with. after thundurus and excadrill were deemed uber, deoxys-s theoretically is as effective as it ever was and yet in a relatively new ou tier, a desirable metagame would be one without a pokemon who compliments its team in many ways.
bottom line: if you were assed about the fact excadrill could flinch "skarm", or force you to run gliscor of all pokemon, then im sure as hell there are some of us who dont want to go out of our way to prepare for weather, top threats and then ridiculously hyper offensive teams that take full advantage of what remains available to them, by means of espeon.
deoxys-s isnt uber. but in my eyes pocket i dont believe excadrill/thundurus/blaziken/garchomp are uber either considering weather is constantly changing when there are viable sweepers for each climate. also it's what deoxys-s alone contributes to a competitive team. azelf cant threaten dragons or unexpected ohkos with either ice beam or psycho boost; not to mention coverage is well-rounded with thunderbolt and superpower. you can ev deoxys-s to be offensively powerful, yet the support sets equally contribute towards the game in such a manner its "role" so to speak has already been fullfilled by either ohkoing your pokemon or surviving your attack to set up once again.
if this was gen 4 he would have been long gone. we have crippled most weathers in one way or another and dragon offense/HO can be dealt with through means of solid team building and conservative play; two key elements in pokemon that we always strive to move forward in. whats left in this metagame are terrakion, reuniclus, volcarona, tornadus and haxorus who really captivate what bw has been about. stretching the limits to a certain point where diversity continues to grow, but without going "too" far; ie: giving volcarona magic guard!
fact is they dealt with one another and i was never too fussed after ss + drizzle was dealt with. after thundurus and excadrill were deemed uber, deoxys-s theoretically is as effective as it ever was and yet in a relatively new ou tier, a desirable metagame would be one without a pokemon who compliments its team in many ways.
bottom line: if you were assed about the fact excadrill could flinch "skarm", or force you to run gliscor of all pokemon, then im sure as hell there are some of us who dont want to go out of our way to prepare for weather, top threats and then ridiculously hyper offensive teams that take full advantage of what remains available to them, by means of espeon.
PRANKSTER SABLEYE! with 252 HP/ 252 Sp. Def and inmunity to PsychoBoost.
But Deoxys-S can carry Magic Coat to bounce back Sableye's Taunt or both can carry Mental Herb.
I know, I said an absourd counter.
The main trouble with this set is being locked in a move due to the Scarf.
Also, don't forget Defog also deletes the screens and decreases -1 the evasion, but since it also removes hazards of the objective's field, it sucks, but if you are lucky, Deoxys-S can bounce it to you and remove the hazards into your field.
ToF, Deoxys-S's speed doesn't matter if you kill Deoxys-S the turn or the turn before screens wore off.
I agree with Woodchuck - Deoxys-S is usually a one-time set up. People usually sac Deoxys-S, because they don't want their offensive sweepers taking damage or take indirect status via Scald burns or Jirachi's paraslam. Heavy Offensive tactics in general dissuades switches and promotes saccing. You can use this to your advantage by wearing down Deoxys-S with a move that wont kill it outright, burning Screen turns.
Taylor, are you saying that Deoxys-S is not broken, but it is in the same league as Excadrill / Thundurus / Blaziken / Garchomp, the suspects which you thought weren't broken either? Since all the respective weather got nerfed, now it's HO's turn to receive a nerf? All of the banned suspects were broken in their own right. Deoxys-S seems to be broken because it can set up a hazard or two / a screen or two. These can be accomplished without Deoxys-S's insane Speed by other monsters.
Usually bans elicit a visible change to the metagame. The loss of Garchomp, Blaziken, Excadrill, and even Thundurus is noticeable. This is because they had such a huge influence on the metagame that their elimination "freed up" the metagame. However, I don't see the same thing happening with Deoxys-S. HO teams will still be perfectly effective by replacing Deoxys-S with any of the several available Dual Screeners, such as Espeon or Jirachi. People will still struggle with Sweepers behind screens - it doesn't matter if Deoxys-S or Jirachi sets them up, because either of them can put them up consistently.
I mirror Woodchuck's view that Dual Screen offense is not broken to begin with - setting up Dual Screens leave the opponent's team open to heavy assaults that can hugely dent the opponent's sweepers even with Screens up or leave them crippled with Scald burns / paraslams / etc.
Even if Dual Screen offense is an issue to the community, removing Deoxys-S will do little to curve their effectiveness. Banning Light Clay is what you guys should be pushing for, lol. Kind of analogous to the Damp Rock Suspect in DPP UU, because Rain Offense was powerful.
I agree with Woodchuck - Deoxys-S is usually a one-time set up. People usually sac Deoxys-S, because they don't want their offensive sweepers taking damage or take indirect status via Scald burns or Jirachi's paraslam. Heavy Offensive tactics in general dissuades switches and promotes saccing. You can use this to your advantage by wearing down Deoxys-S with a move that wont kill it outright, burning Screen turns.
Taylor, are you saying that Deoxys-S is not broken, but it is in the same league as Excadrill / Thundurus / Blaziken / Garchomp, the suspects which you thought weren't broken either? Since all the respective weather got nerfed, now it's HO's turn to receive a nerf? All of the banned suspects were broken in their own right. Deoxys-S seems to be broken because it can set up a hazard or two / a screen or two. These can be accomplished without Deoxys-S's insane Speed by other monsters.
Usually bans elicit a visible change to the metagame. The loss of Garchomp, Blaziken, Excadrill, and even Thundurus is noticeable. This is because they had such a huge influence on the metagame that their elimination "freed up" the metagame. However, I don't see the same thing happening with Deoxys-S. HO teams will still be perfectly effective by replacing Deoxys-S with any of the several available Dual Screeners, such as Espeon or Jirachi. People will still struggle with Sweepers behind screens - it doesn't matter if Deoxys-S or Jirachi sets them up, because either of them can put them up consistently.
I mirror Woodchuck's view that Dual Screen offense is not broken to begin with - setting up Dual Screens leave the opponent's team open to heavy assaults that can hugely dent the opponent's sweepers even with Screens up or leave them crippled with Scald burns / paraslams / etc.
Even if Dual Screen offense is an issue to the community, removing Deoxys-S will do little to curve their effectiveness. Banning Light Clay is what you guys should be pushing for, lol. Kind of analogous to the Damp Rock Suspect in DPP UU, because Rain Offense was powerful.
this sums it up right here. Deoxys-s is not broken by itself, it could possibly be considered broken when combined with other offensive threats, but is simply not broken by itself. banning the use of light clay w/ deoxys-s is the best way to remove the problem with duel screens(if you believe it is broken) but honestly, screens arn't really broken, with the prevalence of brick break on numorous pokes, its rediculously easy to remove them, and since most HO teams sack their deoxys-s after screens, they have no way to bring it back up. the other 2 sets are also due to scrutiny.
The deoxys-s entry hazard setter is also easy to counter. putting a spinner on your team isn't extremely difficult. Before, we have banned pokemon because of the fact they were uncounterable, for example nothing could take excadrill's hits and could be countered back besides really gliscor and skarmory maybe bronzong, but skarmory can only phaze it out. We have banned pokemon because they had too much effect on standard metagame. deoxys-s does not have the power to be broken itself. Combined with other pokemon yes, but plenty of other pokemon can be considered "broken" when utilised with the right teammates.
All in all, deoxys-s has nothing to be considered broken. If you wish to be ban-happy, i would advise just banning lightclay w/ deoxys-s being that duel screens could possibly be the most dangerous out of all the sets
in the best way i can explain was when these pokemon were ou, yes, they were extremey powerful in their own ways like many of the current trends going on now, but together and the rest of what we built in our teams was its own metagame: bw ou.
we banned swift swim and drizzletoed after we knew weather would be the foundation of generation five, and that it would literally be the metagame.
when we started taking what, a year or so in order to get where we are now and with debates and common, yet valuable complaints surface everyday?
blaziken, garchomp, etc., were each highlighted just because we continued to experiment different ways to manipulate our teams and change our perspective playing in most reckless environments were where the truth lied in my honest opinion; i'll vouch for that for i, admittedly, i have played 10 matches at least a day for the past year and a half, since bw was released. theres probably a lot of you smogoners and more who may have and are likely to have also.
anyway we are where we are now and most of us seem set on deoxys-s remaining ou and seeing how it pans out. after st#8 we will definitely know as a community where we stand on our game.
I kinda take offense to this considering that this is pretty much the same thing as Brightpowder was with Garchomp, a Pokemon which was broken by itself - banning that one item just made it a little less annoying, not manageable. If you ban Light Clay, you nerf all of the other screeners in OU which benefit greatly from it as well, stuff like Espeon mostly which isn't broken in the least. Light Clay by itself is not broken, so why ban it from every metagame except for Ubers just because 1 Pokemon takes advantage of it exceptionally well? Again, kinda like Brightpowder, which really had no use besides making a broken Pokemon seem a bit more annoying to play against (This brings to the point that the council should just unban Brightpowder already lol, but that's besides the point).
That said, Dual Screens Deoxys-S can still run a Focus Sash to get both screens up on most Pokemon provided sandstorm isn't present. You'll still always get at least a single screen up, so face it, you'll still have at least one Pokemon set up and ready to go by the time screens wear off, even when deoxys dies. That's really what makes Deoxys-S a bit much for OU: You kinda have to remember that you're dealing with the fastest Pokemon, more importantly the fastest one with screens and hazards.
edit: yeah st8 is gonna have and probably has in r1 a shitload of deoxys-s. I for one used it, LO is still really hard to counter lol
If you think it's a one turn setup Pokemon, you haven't played enough games with Deoxys-s helping Smash Pass teams, where it comes in like 2-3 times in one game and sets up screens. You don't kill Deoxys-s the turn before screens are finished, no player of these kinds of teams is that much of a retard to sacrifice Deoxys-s that easily.
We're talking about HO teams here guys. HO teams are kill something, get killed, send out something to kill, get killed again, repeat. If you sac Deoxys-s early game, that's fine, but don't say that everyone plays Deoxys-s the same way. There are a ton of sweepers that can come in and don't mind status or are immune to it. Go into the RMT archive and look at Taylor's HO Deoxys-S team from DPP. It used a defensive Metagross, yet is still characterized as HO. You don't need a team of Deoxys-S and 5 glass cannons, that doesn't define this playstyle.
As for Woodchuck's points, Azelf can't set up Spikes like Deoxys-s can, which makes the comparison invalid. The whole reason we're arguing Deoxys-s does it better is because it adds that EXTRA level of support that the other dual screeners don't. Oh, by the way, it outspeeds Azelf by almost 1.5 times, something that does matter regardless of how much you discredit it.
It's not the sweeper's fault also, you're way off base there. If you had to put money on winning a game with Deoxys-s leading versus Azelf leading, all 5 sweepers the same, everyone on this forum unless you enjoy losing would pick Deoxys-s. That sums up the difference between them and which one is more deadly, so I really don't need to say more to your points other than that. Azelf glass cannon teams are so much easier to deal with than Deoxys-s glass cannon teams, there is zero debate to that. And if you try and debate it, you're really out of your mind :P
I really don't understand why most of this discussion is on the screens set. For me, it is the hazards lead that makes it an obvious Uber in my eyes.
In gen 4, Aerodactyl was your ideal hazard setter, it allowed no set up to immediately threaten your offensive team and almost always got rocks up too. Now Deoxys-S prevents set-up and doesn't have a much harder time setting up both rocks and spikes. Any attempt to play around it can be made a joke by changing a move. Starmie, Sableye, and Whimsicott are pointed to as fool proof answers but a LO 3 attack SR or spikes set destroys Starmie and Mental Herb means only Sableye is a problem and only if it threatens the rest of your team badly. We all know other spinners get wrecked, and when preserved are given almost no time to spin. It's speed and high power moves mean you'll die trying to scout it, a lot of excellent teams are ruined by this combined with hazards.
Because I have a less of a stance on the screens set and it's been covered well enough, I'll move on to the Life Orb set. I always thought it was the least powerful Deoxys-S but still think its bad for the metagame. It may not have sky high attack scores but it's movepool is absolutely ideal for late game cleaning and easy revenging. Once you weaken the probable single bulky poke that takes neutral damage from your attacks you may be able to outrun and clean up the rest of the team no problem unless your opponent is lucky/skilled enough to play around Psycho Boost and Superpower. You can fill the roles of a scarfer, mixed attacker, and even quick Spiker all in one here, almost as good of a Swiss Army Knife as Excadrill.
In gen 4, Aerodactyl was your ideal hazard setter, it allowed no set up to immediately threaten your offensive team and almost always got rocks up too. Now Deoxys-S prevents set-up and doesn't have a much harder time setting up both rocks and spikes. Any attempt to play around it can be made a joke by changing a move. Starmie, Sableye, and Whimsicott are pointed to as fool proof answers but a LO 3 attack SR or spikes set destroys Starmie and Mental Herb means only Sableye is a problem and only if it threatens the rest of your team badly. We all know other spinners get wrecked, and when preserved are given almost no time to spin. It's speed and high power moves mean you'll die trying to scout it, a lot of excellent teams are ruined by this combined with hazards.
Because I have a less of a stance on the screens set and it's been covered well enough, I'll move on to the Life Orb set. I always thought it was the least powerful Deoxys-S but still think its bad for the metagame. It may not have sky high attack scores but it's movepool is absolutely ideal for late game cleaning and easy revenging. Once you weaken the probable single bulky poke that takes neutral damage from your attacks you may be able to outrun and clean up the rest of the team no problem unless your opponent is lucky/skilled enough to play around Psycho Boost and Superpower. You can fill the roles of a scarfer, mixed attacker, and even quick Spiker all in one here, almost as good of a Swiss Army Knife as Excadrill.
Yeah, me too, although I'm not going to go so far as to say that is outright Uber just yet. Right now, I'm basically using the suicide lead we used back in 4th gen Ubers (252 HP / 252+ Spe / 4 wherever @ Focus Sash, with Stealth Rock / Spikes / Taunt [or Magic Coat] / filler), and it is so damn easy to get up two layers of hazards. With ChopleTar going around (seriously, why do people use this), it can easily survive a Crunch and not get killed by Sandstorm and get up two layers, easily. For most Pokemon, this means 25% gone per switch-in. I've been using Lucario a lot with Deoxys-S lately, and let's just see what kind of impact that two layers has (Assuming Adamant, max Attack, LO).
Close Combat vs 252/252+ Hippowdon: 75.71% - 89.29% (What used to be a guaranteed survival after SR is now an over 50% chance to get OHKOed)
Close Combat vs 252/252+ Tangrowth: 75.74% - 89.36% (Pretty much a guaranteed OHKO now)
Crunch vs 252/252+ Slowbro: 75.63% - 89.34% (Now a guaranteed OHKO)
ExtremeSpeed vs 220/0 Celebi: 55.81% - 65.91% (Very little wriggle room)
Sure, you can say that you can just lead with Starmie or *insert Spinner here* and get rid of them. However, Deoxys-S is not an individual Pokemon, it is a supporter. What's to stop Deoxys-S from switching out? Again, I like to use Mostwanted's team as an example, as it really captures how Deoxys-S is played (although I don't like the EVs and item, but whatever). You lead with Starmie? Fine, you just switch straight to Rotom-W. If Starmie stays in, it dies to Volt Switch, if it switches out, you just Volt Switch straight back into Deoxys-S and cycle begins again. There's also the possibility that Deoxys-S can run Thunderbolt or Shadow Ball as its filler move, which completely stomps Starmie. Not only is the hazard lead great at setting up hazards, but that one filler move also allows it to revenge kill something like a 50% Dragonite or Gyarados if the need arises. Even if you are highly prepared for the hazard lead, chances are that it'll still come in at some point in the match and guarantee at least one layer of hazards. Think Froslass in UU last gen. It's pretty much what Deoxys-S does.
The usage stats have now been released. As I expected, Scizor is now #1 in usage, getting almost 30%, almost on one out of every three teams. And 95% of them happen to be the Choice Band set. While Scizor was already getting good usage, it's still increased drastically. The main thing I can attribute this to is the rise of Deoxys-S, Scizor being the most viable of its checks.
Yes, Deoxys-S is a reason for Scizor's rise, but you can not forget how its used to counter Dragonite and Terrakion. In fact, I'm honestly pretty sure more people use Scizor to not get buttraped by CB Terrakion and Dragonite with 2 or 3 DD's than Deoxys.
Deoxys is now the #1 lead.
EDIT: God dammit Antar, you ninja.
EDIT: God dammit Antar, you ninja.
I would simply like to point out that one reason that Excadrill was banned was because of the fact that it broke Speed tiers. Deoxys also falls into that catagory, however, unlike Excadril, there is no way to change this fact. Unless you're running a Scarfer with a base speed higher than 104 iirc, then Deoxys-S will be faster. To be honest, that sounds completely absurd.
Not only is Deoxys fast as hell, it's not thin as paper like its other forms (minus D). Deoxys can come in, live a hit, and accomplish what it needs to do pretty easily. Aside from the fact that Deoxys is hands down the best Dual Screener in OU right now, it makes a fantastic support Pokemon as well as a decent sweeper, seeing as how almost nothing can outspeed it unless you're running Scarfed Terrakion or Infernape, and if you have to do that, then that's saying something about Deoxys.
Deoxys also doesn't even need any speed in order to outpace most of the un-boosted metagame, which is absolutely absurd. This means that Deoxys can be built to be both bulky and quick, which makes it even harder to stop this thing under screens at times.
Of course, Deoxys is probably the best answer to some of the set up sweepers right now if it's offensive (Dragonite after SR), but I feel as though Deoxys really needs to go.
Not only is Deoxys fast as hell, it's not thin as paper like its other forms (minus D). Deoxys can come in, live a hit, and accomplish what it needs to do pretty easily. Aside from the fact that Deoxys is hands down the best Dual Screener in OU right now, it makes a fantastic support Pokemon as well as a decent sweeper, seeing as how almost nothing can outspeed it unless you're running Scarfed Terrakion or Infernape, and if you have to do that, then that's saying something about Deoxys.
Deoxys also doesn't even need any speed in order to outpace most of the un-boosted metagame, which is absolutely absurd. This means that Deoxys can be built to be both bulky and quick, which makes it even harder to stop this thing under screens at times.
Of course, Deoxys is probably the best answer to some of the set up sweepers right now if it's offensive (Dragonite after SR), but I feel as though Deoxys really needs to go.
if conkeldurr is not enough to stop exca's banishment to ubers, there's no way any counter can stop deo-s to same fate. deo-s does his job too easy even with the existence of counters (scizor, tyra, starmie etc), especially that suicide lead with spinblock support (there's no point in countering a suicide lead who has already done his job) and if it survives, it can leave a huge dent on at least one poke.
We've reached the unanimous decision that Deoxys-S is Uber
We feel like the arguments for Uber in this thread pointed to two main points that pushed Deoxys-S over the edge: 1. It does its job incredibly easily and; 2. Upon completion of that job, the Deoxys-S user has a distinct advantage over his opponent.
Of course, that can almost be said of any Pokemon that does its job well (Latios, Dragonite, Volcarona, etc.), but none of those Pokemon can guarantee constant momentum to one player from turn 1. Deoxys-S's two primary jobs are setting screens and laying hazards. Other Pokemon can fill this role, but nowhere near as effectively as Deoxys-S. Aldaron was personally swayed by the bulky screener that doesn't need to be used as a sacrificial screener and can come in throughout the game to repeatedly do its job. Even by sacrificing speed for bulk Deoxys-S still outspeeds most of the metagame. Even the non-bulky version is by far the best screener in the game. Several posts in this topic have also outlined why the constant presence of Screens on one side of the field breaks several sweepers. Deoxys-S is the only screener that can almost guarantee this constant presence.
The spiker, on the other hand, separates itself from other spikes/stealth rockers in that it can give the user immediate momentum from Turn 1. That momentum, just like screens, makes it harder for teams to deal with any and all offensive threats. Deoxys-S speed, access to taunt, team preview helping it avoid Scizor or TTar, or any other immediate threat, and ability to both Spike and lay Stealth Rock are what make it an amazing spiker. But most notably its ability to run specific moves to counter Pokemon that threaten it are what really separate it from the rest of the pack.
Deoxys-S is already a difficult Pokemon to deal with, but the uncertainty of its moves make handling it an exercise in extreme caution. Most spikers can be dealt with by a rapid spinner, however Deoxys-S immediately threatens all rapid spinners with its amazing movepool. Forretress can be dealt with with HP Fire (as well as Scizor, another typical answer to Deoxys-S). Starmie can be dealt with by Thunderbolt. Tentacruel can be dealt with by Psycho Boost. Tyranitar, a threat to OHKO through Sash, is handled by Superpower. Now obviously Deoxys-S isn't going to be running HP Fire/Thunderbolt/Superpower/Psycho Boost as its offensive moves, but the fact that you have no idea if your "counter" to Deoxys-S is going to swiftly die rather than doing the job it's meant to do really pushes it over the edge, especially compared to other Spikers who may be able to get Spikes down quickly, but have no way of handling their most common counters.
Of course, Deoxys-S can also run an offensive set. While nowhere near as gamebreaking as the other two sets, it's still arguably the best revenge killer in the game, with amazing speed, reliable attack stats, and one of the best offensive movepools in the game. The existence of this set simply hammers home the fact that you don't know if your Deoxys-S counter is going to counter Deoxys-S.
Looking at specific counters, you can see that if they counter one set, they are a complete liability against the others. Forretress may stop HP Fire-less spikers, but is setup fodder for the screener (and an especially easy Pokemon for a sweeper to setup on following the setup of the screens). Starmie, Tentacruel, and other spinners fall into the same trap as Forretress. The screener requires specialization that leaves you at a disadvantage against the rest of the metagame. The offensive version is countered mostly by bulky steels that are once again setup for the other versions. Being able to handle all three requires even more specialization than to beat the screener, and this just puts all teams hoping to properly deal with Deoxys-S at a severe disadvantage against other teams.
For these reasons, Deoxys-S is now Uber.
We feel like the arguments for Uber in this thread pointed to two main points that pushed Deoxys-S over the edge: 1. It does its job incredibly easily and; 2. Upon completion of that job, the Deoxys-S user has a distinct advantage over his opponent.
Of course, that can almost be said of any Pokemon that does its job well (Latios, Dragonite, Volcarona, etc.), but none of those Pokemon can guarantee constant momentum to one player from turn 1. Deoxys-S's two primary jobs are setting screens and laying hazards. Other Pokemon can fill this role, but nowhere near as effectively as Deoxys-S. Aldaron was personally swayed by the bulky screener that doesn't need to be used as a sacrificial screener and can come in throughout the game to repeatedly do its job. Even by sacrificing speed for bulk Deoxys-S still outspeeds most of the metagame. Even the non-bulky version is by far the best screener in the game. Several posts in this topic have also outlined why the constant presence of Screens on one side of the field breaks several sweepers. Deoxys-S is the only screener that can almost guarantee this constant presence.
The spiker, on the other hand, separates itself from other spikes/stealth rockers in that it can give the user immediate momentum from Turn 1. That momentum, just like screens, makes it harder for teams to deal with any and all offensive threats. Deoxys-S speed, access to taunt, team preview helping it avoid Scizor or TTar, or any other immediate threat, and ability to both Spike and lay Stealth Rock are what make it an amazing spiker. But most notably its ability to run specific moves to counter Pokemon that threaten it are what really separate it from the rest of the pack.
Deoxys-S is already a difficult Pokemon to deal with, but the uncertainty of its moves make handling it an exercise in extreme caution. Most spikers can be dealt with by a rapid spinner, however Deoxys-S immediately threatens all rapid spinners with its amazing movepool. Forretress can be dealt with with HP Fire (as well as Scizor, another typical answer to Deoxys-S). Starmie can be dealt with by Thunderbolt. Tentacruel can be dealt with by Psycho Boost. Tyranitar, a threat to OHKO through Sash, is handled by Superpower. Now obviously Deoxys-S isn't going to be running HP Fire/Thunderbolt/Superpower/Psycho Boost as its offensive moves, but the fact that you have no idea if your "counter" to Deoxys-S is going to swiftly die rather than doing the job it's meant to do really pushes it over the edge, especially compared to other Spikers who may be able to get Spikes down quickly, but have no way of handling their most common counters.
Of course, Deoxys-S can also run an offensive set. While nowhere near as gamebreaking as the other two sets, it's still arguably the best revenge killer in the game, with amazing speed, reliable attack stats, and one of the best offensive movepools in the game. The existence of this set simply hammers home the fact that you don't know if your Deoxys-S counter is going to counter Deoxys-S.
Looking at specific counters, you can see that if they counter one set, they are a complete liability against the others. Forretress may stop HP Fire-less spikers, but is setup fodder for the screener (and an especially easy Pokemon for a sweeper to setup on following the setup of the screens). Starmie, Tentacruel, and other spinners fall into the same trap as Forretress. The screener requires specialization that leaves you at a disadvantage against the rest of the metagame. The offensive version is countered mostly by bulky steels that are once again setup for the other versions. Being able to handle all three requires even more specialization than to beat the screener, and this just puts all teams hoping to properly deal with Deoxys-S at a severe disadvantage against other teams.
For these reasons, Deoxys-S is now Uber.
- Status