NOC Medieval Mafia - Game Over: Majora's Maskians Win

j-squared!!!! Glad to see you are still alive!

*Remembers Peace NOCed Down Mafia...the nostalgia*

Anyways, carry on...

And no, I'm not a sub nor am I subbing in...
 
Yeti said:
jumpluff: out of retirement for the good of the NOC
or just really stupid subbing into a game with like 600 posts?

(aren't we all stupid for playing it tho)
Click to expand...

Checked back to see if anyone was complaining that I hadn't posted yet (I am at post #196, so I think I'd better just start skipping over individual post analysis). I think it's a combination of both lmao tbh I was just craving to play some NOC with your good self and all these interesting colourful users.

ETA: progress report, this post may take me the rest of the day rofl, since I am trying to make it shorter. Apologies for the slowness, I have spent hours on it and am taking a break now, so it might have to come tmr. Sorry!!
 
Okay, so, this post was originally chaotic and jumbled. I saved it as noctldr.txt; this file is saved as nocslightlylesstldr.txt, consider yourself warned. I had a lot to say but I decided nobody would read it if I didn't concise it so I am now trying, but please keep in mind I need to talk about all 600ish posts since Kaxtar left a lot out. ^^; Additionally, I'm concerned I might have missed some people when I listed examples of commonalities, so please let me know if you spot any missing people, as it's hard to keep track of 600 posts in your head and I am very interested in having more evidence for or against my ideas.

Firstly I would like to address Kaxtar, although a lot of my comments will concern Ditto as I found his behaviour regarding Ditto the most concerning of all. x_x

Kaxtar

  • The first thing I saw from him I disagreed with, post #111, Ditto read. I believe the ~*~*psychological scumhunting term*~*~ is IIoA or information instead of analysis. I will address how I feel about Ditto in his own section, but suffice to say I found his posts unhelpful. However, I know I'm village, and therefore Kaxtar was village, so I have to try to understand his perspective other than that we're different players of different experience levels. I wish he had been more active, so I would have more to go off, but then I guess I wouldn't be subbed in for him.
    • I noticed several of the apparently inexperienced users thinking what Ditto did was good. Whether they were all just copying each other or it was just their inexperience, I'm not sure. These users are Kaxtar, TalkingLion (#106), Leethoof (#152), Rediamond (#244). Possibly some others, but it's hard to search this thread. This in no way justifies Kaxtar's read, and I actually find the other two users suspicious, but it's a link I wanted to highlight.
    • He explained this in post #147. I found this explanation relatively satisfactory. It could have been more substantial, but it's hard to defend an opinion that's just plain wrong, I guess! Additionally, all of Kaxtar's post were like that. The only reason I can imagine for Kax's opinion is that he felt Ditto was examining an aspect of the game nobody else was and using numbers and logic to back it up. This I guess is a problem with not knowing fully how players should go about contributing to the town.
    • He moved to protect Ditto again in #251. This by itself is not alarming since he clearly felt Ditto was being ganged up on and since he had a town read on Ditto it was natural he would move to defend him. His reasoning was a bit flawed as Ditto was pretty clearly desperate from the language in his posts, but he did use reasoning to support his reiterated town read. The main worrying thing about this post is him trying to divert the conversation again, but he was quite right that there were other candidates for the lynch and they weren't bad ones, though he should have explained them.
  • #240 is just a plain 'be active' post. He also makes it clear he doesn't like the psychological aspect of this game. I believe this may be why he was subbed out, as he realised NOC games are all about finger-pointing and didn't have much to contribute on that front.
  • I am not sure what to make of #300. It was a weak, wishy-washy attack on Quagsires, and an attempt to direct the conversation again. Right then, I would have asked him why he would not commit to a lynch, and for him to list lynch targets worth discussing more than Quagsires. However I can only guess that he felt he was being helpful and keeping discussion on track, and may have been concerned about UncleSam and the Quagwagon controlling the conversation. He also attempted to alert people of his inactivity in advance so people would worry less about his inactivity, I suppose.
  • While his posts were short, they were at least attempting to be insightful. I never got a feeling of irrational jumping around or defensiveness from him. 5/600 posts are not much to go off, though, so all I can say is that I don't know Kaxtar's life circumstances, and I'll try to make up for him as best as I can.
Verdict: Inexperienced player, too noncommittal, too inactive to get a clear read from in all honesty. I don't see anything too terrible in his posts I should have to defend myself from, but if you disagree, sure, I'm open to questions. A neutral analysis (as much as possible) on Kaxtar.

Secondly, I would like to address Ditto, since my Kaxtar section mostly concerned Kaxtar's feelings on him. It should be really evident by now I think Ditto is pretty scummy, and that's not exactly an original thought there.

Ditto (and a little bit of Yeti!)

  • Like I said, IIoA, especially at the start when he could probably get away with it in his opinion. Yes, he was apparently answering a question about the game setup. That's a fair defence for one post. But then to continue to make seemingly irrelevant (to the discussion) posts about the game setup (#43, #58, #64), that was IMO either an attempt like last game to appear active while contributing very little or a (possibly both) way of bogging down conversation and spreading misinformation. Since I believe he is mafia, he would probably know more about the game setup than us.
    • I believe this is what Ditto was doing in the last NOC mafia (I think), and it was something of which he was accused constantly.
    • The cited posts were in the middle of conversation about StevenSnype, dunno if he was just trying to distract people, but either way they lacked any kind of context since people were discussing something else and he wasn't bringing up anything new or related to players.
    • One thing I noticed about Ditto's game setup post (#64), though I may be reading too much into this, was that he assumed always a mislynch worst case scenario. I felt like this was a subtle way of cautioning people not to lynch D1 in context with his other posts.
  • I noticed a weird recurring pattern in Ditto's post: one of simultaneous distancing and defensiveness. He would jump to defend himself in a really snappy way (this jumpiness I find a bit disturbing) and at the same time detach himself from the things he had said before. Why did he keep feeling the need to defend those things instead of contribute something new? It was really redundant, and it made me suspicious that he seemed desperate both to get the heat off himself and push himself away from his old posts, as if he had made a big mistake and his stratagem had backfired and he regretted it.
    • In some part I can attribute his frustration to IRL stress related to the rehearsals he constantly mentioned, but it seemed highly unwarranted to me.
  • #71 was a post I found quite worrying. While his contempt for D1 is shared by Crux and askaninjask, I feel that Ditto's is the worst. 'In all honesty, I find conversation on the first day to be absolutely pointless.' This coming from someone who was making quite a lot of posts. 'Until we have some scope on how people react by analyzing their dealings in D1 and the lynch to their dealings in D2.' So basically nobody has anything worthwhile to state but one day we'll need to analyse it. All I get from this is discussion stifling and copping out. 'For the most part D1 discussion is pulling at straws.' Perfectly true for RVS, but at this point RVS had somewhat ended and everyone was starting to discuss the actual action with other users, so why not join in and give us more to analyse? That would be a pro-town action.
  • He went off at Rediamond in #171. 'Rediamond, could you please do something besides bandwagon? kthx' and in response to billymills pointing out in #173 that Ditto has contributed very little himself, 'Still better than bandwagoning' (#176). Latter is a really weak defence and I find both overall an attempt to make out as if he had contributed more than he had, since he was called out on it himself. This supports my idea that Ditto was trying to blend in while not offering anything that could be really used against him or would help the town.
    • Actually, I found it interesting that billymills just dropped that thread of argument, asking instead for an item two minutes later in #177, which means he may not have read Ditto's post. But after that he just didn't seem particularly worried by what Ditto said, and I would like billymills to explain this for me, please, because I would have expected you to press him after a weak, defiant defence like that.
  • Kamikaze Ditto (#196, #199, #201). Clearly not a pro-town move, and he had nothing to offer us by suiciding since he had given us no information to analyse following his hypothetical death whatsoever.
    • It is possible though unlikely he did not like the way the discussion was heading in, and wanted to kill himself to curtail it, but that is a bit implausibly irrational. I feel it is more likely he was at a point of not caring about the game and/or trying to goad users. I'm really not sure what to make sure of his 'you can lynch me' gambit because it's obviously a scumtell but I somehow can't bring myself to believe Ditto would do that as mafia... which is the main thing that makes me not 100% sure about him, even though I think I could be forgiven if I considered that so very anti-town a townie could not possibly want to do that.
  • I would like to note that Ditto wasn't the only one to talk about the game setup: see Yeti (#131) and Coronis (#144). I don't feel that game setup discussion by itself is pure suspicious and unhelpful, but this is in context of Ditto's reticence about other things.
  • He did begin to contribute in #212, though he did not defend himself anymore (perhaps since he'd been called out on it), and posted a list of reads. Didn't understand how some of his reads jumped from his descriptions, particularly Coronis's. None of the reads really tied him to anyone except possibly Staraptor Call's and Coronis's.
    • Coronis: Dunno how he jumped from 'isn't helpful / echo chamber' to 'noobtown'. I could say that Ditto was possibly feeling that he was in a similar position to Coronis, but I'm also pretty sure from Ditto's experience level that Ditto doesn't consider himself noobtown (he mentioned his limited experience in both #277 #284 admittedly).
    • Staraptor Call: Apparently Ditto could not get a clear read on Jalmont (none listed), Leethoof, Metal Bagon (of all people, METAL BAGON? I'll write about him later though), but could get a clear read from SC's single post (#157). In Ditto's defence Staraptor Call's post is quite reasonable, but wanted to highlight the potential inconsistency.
    • I noticed he was confident enough in saying people were (tentatively) clean, but not ever actually accusing anyone, despite writing purely negative descriptions for some of them (such as Metal Bagon). I really don't like behaviour like this personally. At this point I would have expected at least a tentative scum accusation. I don't expect people to be 100% confident about their ideas and think that is actually scummy if too extreme since scum are the informed minority, but I also don't like when people aren't willing to tread on toes a bit / put themselves forward. It's very easy to be wrong in NOC mafia and this kind of non-committalness gets us nowhere.
  • Still kind of wishy-washy in #223, but he did at least promptly answer Blue_Tornado calling him out (#214). Here he suggested he might at least lynch nEsp and Metal Bagon, which appeared to satisfy B_T. I certainly don't disagree with the candidates he raised, especially Metal Bagon, but this is the Metal Bagon he claimed to have no strong read on in #212...
  • He seemed to have a mood swing in #284 ('I only like to finalize a lynch when I feel almost certain that the person is scum. I am an overall somewhat timid player when it comes to lynching.') that I found contradicted his behaviour in this game. While the first sentence matched Ditto's refusal to offer his opinion on people, he was not remotely timid about lynching himself. His actions and tone did not match the profile of a conservative player imho and I would consider this a copout.
  • I need to write about the Ditto/Quagsires stuff that some other people mentioned, but uhhh I posted this analysis incomplete by accident and I'll just save it for the Quagsires analysis >_<
  • More of that defiant, 'I don't care to defend myself from you' attitude in #606, shortly before he requested to sub.
    • 'I was not being suicidal D1, at least not in my mind. It was more of an acceptance of being lynched. I did not initially say that people should kill me, like Leethoof did.' Umm, maybe it's just my spin on things, but I can't help but see him as anything but suicidal, because he was basically goading people to lynch him, voted himself despite there being no massive wagon yet, etc. So I really disagree with this post, and maybe he just came across that way from mood, but I can't help but note this contradiction as suspicious.
  • In this post he claimed 'I was not being suicidal D1, at least not in my mind. It was more of an acceptance of being lynched. I did not initially say that people should kill me, like Leethoof did.'
  • There's an evident Yeti/Ditto relationship, though the nature of which I'm not sure, since I generally found Yeti's defence of him, while very blatant sometimes, to be reasonable enough, and she seemed to waver between suspicious and defensive. Here my analysis will mostly focus on Yeti since Ditto did not seem to reciprocate the connection.
    • See #74 where Yeti comes to Ditto's defence (valid enough though imo) and #206 (which was actually perfectly correct since rushing Ditto was probably just playing into his hands and would unnecessarily curtail discussion).
    • She was a bit distant with Ditto in #247, but was hesitant to really give a clear opinion on him and instead prompted others for one (#247, #253). I think this was fair enough though even for Yeti, who can be a bit aggressive (although her energies were focused on UncleSam at the time), but would have liked to see more of her own opinion on him in that post.
    • Her willingness to reiterate her call for opinion may have been an attempt to distance herself after UncleSam pressed her about the buddying, but she did at least keep him under the spotlight, so although I'm unsure, I'd TENTATIVELY give Yeti the benefit of the doubt on this, and of course if either of them dies the flip will hopefully shed some light on the other.
    • I discuss this below, but she put some pressure on the Kaxtar/Ditto pairing. I'm a bit confused since she seemed to be blaming Kaxtar in #393 when she asked for his thoughts and not Ditto's, but then in #557 she claims 'if Quag is mafia, look at Ditto and then Kaxtar carefully, they buddy in that order', which makes it sound like Ditto is buddying Kaxtar ?_?
    • She seemed to change her mind (dunno if this is just scummy trying to go along with the flow, distancing, or her mind genuinely changing) in #603, since she called him out as an honourable mention. Also called out Staraptor Call, who as we now know Ditto seemed to find clean from a single post alone.
    • Overall I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on this and think it is unlikely they are both mafia together due to her later behaviour towards Ditto and Ditto's apparent ignoring of her. See my analysis of post #253.
  • Also a Ditto/Quagsires defender/defendee relationship (#283, #313), though he never gave a read on him in #212. Probably not much to fuss about but would like to make note of it now!
  • Kaxtar/Ditto relationship, as Yeti highlighted in #393 and I discussed a bit above. Now since I happen to be 'Kaxtar', you'll notice I'm obviously suspicious of Ditto. If I'm honest I'm expecting someone to call me out on trying to distance myself from Kaxtar with my opinions on Ditto, but so be it. All I can do is acknowledge that relationship and denounce it, I guess.
Verdict: Scummy especially at the start, really erratic behaviour, seemed to stifle discussion a bit. I would support a lynch on him unless something good comes up to clear his name, but I'm not 100% sure because I also get a 'stressed out, over-pressured villager' vibe from his language. Overall, his pattern of behaviour was very erratic. He went from calm to angry to calm again, which I found a bit jarring, but not sure what to make of that, guess it was the heat coming off him. He asked for a substitute in #629, so I would prefer to observe his inevitable substitute for a little while if possible and see if they can shed any light on Ditto's behaviour after his damage control. Sorry that none of my analysis is particularly original but it's a bit hard to be at post #600 when Ditto already made a show of himself !!!

Essentially, scum read and possible lynch target but would prefer some more time on that one.

TalkingLion/Dummy007

  • I share my past life Kaxtar's opinions on this user, and I found post #106 noteworthy for his reads on Ditto, UncleSam, and zorbees.
    • 'UncleSam: He is one of the more vocal posters, could be a mafian trying to blend in but I think he is most likely a villager.' What I'm taking from this is either TL feels vocal players are most likely townies (I can't really argue with that though it is poor reasoning by itself since it didn't at all consider the content of Sam's vocalising) or, hiding behind D1 uncertainty, he's protecting Sam. I say the latter because of his read on zorbees:
    • 'zorbees: He lynches people too quickly to be honest, without providing much justification. Could be scum, but could also be village trying to get people to talk more.' Wait, isn't that true of UncleSam too? Admittedly, Sam provided more justification, and maybe TL just tl;dred Sam's posts. However, I interpreted the first sentence followed by 'could be scum' as 'sounds scummy to me' as opposed to 'I think UncleSam is most likely a villager', though that's just how I understood the language TL used. TL/Sam relationship here, which even Sam pointed out and distanced himself from because of TL's subtle and not-so-subtle reliance on Sam's opinions.
    • 'Ditto: He seems like he is trying to get the village organized quickly, which I support so that we don't mislynch too much early on.' I was actually inclined to be gentler with TL here because Kaxtar made the same mistake, so from my POV it's something a newer townie could easily slip up with, especially as I admit Ditto's posts do come across as rational (especially compared to all the yelling and shouting going on with the more player-analytic posters like Sam) at first glance, and I got a feeling from like every read in this post that there wasn't really much content analysing going on at all (which is not a good thing). However I do find it interesting that TL felt that Ditto was trying to get the village organised when Ditto was barely even addressing the village, he was rambling about game setup and yelling at people instead. Possible TL/Ditto relationship? Maybe, especially since he raised player analysis as pro-town behaviour in the Brammi read then completely ignored that Ditto was straight up refusing to offer any at that point in time.
    • As for TL/Ditto/Sam, I feel like this may not be some kind of triangle since TL didn't think to mention at all that Sam was 'organising the village' when he had it the wrong way around: Sam was clearly trying to establish himself as in control and Ditto was doing nothing of the sort by contrast, so I feel that the TL/Ditto relationship evidenced by these reads was far clearer than TL/Sam, despite being subtler. I differentiate this from Kaxtar's read on Ditto, because like I mentioned the whole thing I found fishy about his post was the way the reads worked in context. A naïve and inconsistent post that needed more justification either way you look at it.
  • TL resurfaced in post #148, at least responding to what was addressed to him... Defends Sam again, though he is at using some form of reasoning to support it; I don't find that reasoning to be solid since people were already posting why people thought Sam's aggression could be construed as UncleScum. This post was pretty weird though since he argues a scum player would probably try to fall under the radar, but I got that impression from him myself. He then said that kok and zorbees are scummy and asks for explanations from them... without offering any of his own as to why kok and zorbees are scummy. Maybe diversionary tactics ?_?
  • Reappeared in #258, and this was the scummiest thing I saw yet from him. 'My opinion of Ditto hasn't changed too much.' WRONG. Reread this 'Ditto: He seems like he is trying to get the village organized quickly, which I support so that we don't mislynch too much early on.', sounds like a positive endorsement to me. 'At the beginning, he was posting a lot about the numbers of mafia, which could hint at scum posting wrong information on purpose to seem less suspicious. He also seems a bit defensive and overreacts too much when someone claimed he was partly scummy. And now he is being "suicidal" and lynching himself, to make himself seem like he is not that suspicious.' I almost can't believe these two posts were made by the same user about the one person, wtf? I found this scummy because it was extremely self-contradictory and noncommittal.
    • First of all, if they're both scum, TL was trying to go with the flow while not looking like a flipflopper, but he may be too inexperienced to do that (though it's entirely possible scum can contact each other in the day, rendering most experience-based arguments moot, and I could be underestimating him). I find this the likeliest just because of my suspicion of them both. TL was also extremely hesitant to vote his mafia partner Ditto, but if you listen to TL, he thought Ditto was bad all along, so why would he be so afraid of voting him after all that time? That's evidence of this scenario imo.
    • Second of all, TL is scum but Ditto isn't, and Ditto was just playing messily. I find both of these users scummy but their relationship made me a bit hesitant now...
    • Third of all, TL is villy and Ditto is scum and TL is just really absentminded and noobtown, which is plausible, I guess, but this post seriously set off sirens.
    • Last of all (unless neuts and whatnot), TL and Ditto are both villagers and I'm a dumbass. TL is parroting other users in this case, so noobtown. I really don't know what to make of these posts since that's all I have to go off and I would like to hear what others think, since afaict nobody called TL out on this glaring contradiction.
  • He was then subbed out for Dummy007, aka Koopa Kid (yes, that's how I think of you, Dummy n_n). Post #379 is a cursory acknowledgement of sub, nbd. The first stuff comes in #480, in response to aska's questions in #476. Immediately defers to the Yeti/billy coalition and then the Quagwagon while providing no reason of his own except 'uhhh there are a lot of reasons and there are a lot of votes on the Quagwagon and stuff'. Bad start for our Koopa Kid.
    • The TL/US relationship, which US was oh-so-eager to distance himself from, is reinforced by Dummy's post. Now that is incriminating imo, since I already thought TL/US was a bit off. I suppose it is entirely possible for a sub to agree with his or her past life (saying that with a bit of irony since I agreed with Kaxtar), but I noticed it straight away. Calls out Brammi and B_T with no reasoning, not even someone else's. Overall, not too much of a useful post, but I can't help but feel that if Cereza flipped bad, that would cast the Talking Koopa in a terrible light.
  • Posts again in #489, nothing to see there, but returns again at #497, so at least Koopa Kid is more active than his predecessor. 'Anyhow, the users I pegged as scum were Brammi, Ditto, Kaxtar, and Quagsires.'
    • Well, this matches up with his past post, though he seems to have dropped B_T for now. Oh, wait, Kaxtar, that's me. 'Kaxtar for bandwagoning on the TalkingLion lynch and being totally inactive afterwards'. Well, I get an OMGUSy feeling from this since TL was buddying US and quite inactive himself, but okay.
    • 'Quagsires for a number of already stated, indefinite reasons (could someone please tell me the most crucial reason why he's being lynched?).' Wait wtf. So he thinks Quagsires is bad but wants to be spoonfed the reasons for why? Get your own opinion :/ Seems more like he was trying to answer the question there than actually offer anything new.
  • At billymills' prompting, he unvoted lkk (yo I didn't even see the lkk vote in the first place ._. did TL delete his post?) and Quagwagon in #499.
  • Brings up some original thought on the persuasion matter in #585. I have some thoughts on this post I'm not sure if I really should divulge AT THIS POINT. I think it might be better to keep that card up my sleeve, but I hope to be able to pursue it at some point.
  • Posts reads again in #604 on Ditto, Brammi, and Kax. Mostly just reiterates what he already said. 'Inactivity is one of the textbooks signs of being mafia.' WELL TL WAS INACTIVE!!!!! no rly I don't think Dummy can defend himself from that one since TL was just plain inactive and I am presently quite sympathetic to his position, so I'll drop that one. 'I would like to see Kax say something again, especially since his most recent activity consisted of bandwagoning on a fad lynch' was a bit hypocritical after the whole Quagwagon.
  • I didn't find any more of his posts particularly remarkable.


Verdict: Scummy, both users buddy US and show hesitance to really put their money where their mouth is (particularly TL), though maybe they coincidentally have very similar playstyles, I can't help but feel it's part of an overarching strategy that may be directed by his scumbuddies (if I am correct about day communication, which was a factor in both of the NOC games I played and idk about the other ones off the top of my head, but it's something to keep in mind). I would like to see what Dummy thinks about this before placing a vote on him, since the Koopa Kid and Kaxtar have a history.

Lady Salamence/DetroitLolcat

  • Ah, our silent Lady Salamence, she completely perplexed me from the get go in post #151. I mean, I don't even know what to make of that, LS, other than she defends Sam in the same breath as admitting she didn't read his posts ?_? Poor Sam, only people defending him were doing it terribly. If I were mafia!Sam I would be furious and if I were village!Sam I would be furious too. Who knows though?
  • Relying on UncleSam again in her next contribution, #175. It would appear that LS has now read some of Sam's posts. Now, plenty of users have pointed this out, but she just completely ignored everyone else, who posted quite emphatically they would not like the announcer to claim, and followed US's lead. In fact there are so many users behaving weirdly around US I can't help but start reconsidering my opinion of US... Surely they all can't be mafia!!!
  • DL, thanks for offering to sub in, but why did you offer to sub in then go inactive yourself? ._< Suspicious much? (I'm referring to #117.) He didn't even read the thread for three days (#410) and hadn't finished by the 9th (#517), then disappeared again until the 12th and the 14th. DL is hardly the most inactive person in this game but I couldn't help but find it suspicious that after offering to sub in, he went right under the radar. What are your thoughts on my assessment, DL?


Verdict: LS? Very, very suspicious. Of her few posts, there is almost nothing -- if anything -- redeeming I can find, except for her claim, which has not been CCed. Call this rolefishing but I would be delighted if the announcer CCed, since we'd either be trading them for a surefire lynch or we'd be getting a clean villager in exchange for a surefire lynch. Actually, surefire is a bit excessive since a mafia might kamikaze CC themselves on her, and I think we all learned from Orcinus, but seriously why would you force a mislynch on the announcer unless it was the last day of the game...? I think I would be suspicious if Ditto did it but I have seen no inclination from him whatsoever to CC, so there you go. DL? Not much better, almost nothing to go off here.

Rediamond

  • Post #130, standard inactivity excuse (though he did at least give a commitment to being more active following a given date), completely neutral by itself since anyone can have irl shit going on (though of course if he kept making them that would be pretty dodgy). Nothing to see there.
    • 'And I have a virtually useless village role, so my use is somewhat limited. If people really want me to post a PM confirming that I can do absolutely nothing, I would be willing to do so.' Wait, plenty to see here. First of all, public claim, which B_T did at least highlight in #132. Also, don't know if this is just inexperienced treating NOC mafia as OC mafia or not with the whole 'let me post my PM to prove I'm clean plz don't lynch me ;_;'. OK, admittedly when I phrase it that way, it sounds like strawmanning, sorry, but lol that's sorta how I interpreted it since he wanted to post a claim to clean himself rather than argue his way out of it. Lazy + no real defence.
    • Furthermore, he was being wayyyyy too paranoid. Such unsolicited public claims are not what was anyone asking of Rediamond at all. In fact, there was one (1) vote on Rediamond according to Spiffy's very recent vote count, which I will charitably assume Rediamond saw since otherwise his completely unwarranted defensiveness in the last sentence was clearly caused by active!lurking and seeing UncleSam and billymills call him out. However I will operate under the assumption he was indeed busy since it hardly detracts from my argument anyway. No need at all for Rediamond to get jumpy and public claim because of one vote, especially on D1. It's completely natural for a villager to not want to be lynched either and what I found ridiculous in the last NOC mafia was that people were calling people out for expressing their survival instinct, but... dude, one vote?You could say billymills and UncleSam were applying some pressure but then you have to accept Rediamond was reading the thread and thus could've posted that way earlier, if not anything more substantial. So, yeah, I found just these two lines extremely odd.
  • #167 is pretty silly since he just quotes Leethoof's reads (#152) and agrees with them. I'm not a fan of #152 and I am especially not a fan of #167.
  • #170, which got him called out by Ditto, voting Metal Bagon. Can't say I disagree with it but would like to see more reasoning from him than something he parroted from Jalmont.
  • Renounces these posts in #233. Maybe prompted by scumbuddies or just realised from being calling out it was a bad idea, not sure.
  • Rediamond brings up an interesting new thought in #244 wrt Leethoof and UncleSam. Not sure I totally agree and it could be construed as protecting them both, but it was nice to see some original thought coming from him.
    • 'There isn't anything inherently scummy about either of them to be perfectly honest, outside of the fact that they're posting and drawing attention to themselves.' Okay, I can't be bothered going through this one again, just wanted to point out that billymills, UncleSam, and Ditto all seem to have a talent for getting themselves surrounded by the newer (? sorry if I'm wrong) users. billy and UncleSam have sought to distance themselves from it and Ditto has utterly ignored it, as far as I have noticed. This doesn't necessarily make Rediamond bad, it was just something relevant to the Rediamond analysis that I felt was worth noting.
    • Not too indepth but they are his own opinions, which is a huge improvement.
  • Back in #437. Sticking to his Leethoof and US/Cereza assertion. It's nice to see him having a clear and determined opinion, at least. Protecting Ditto again. Casting aspersions on Quagsires and Metal Bagon.
  • Apparently changed his mind on UncleSam, since he then votes Cereza in #453. 'The only reason I was hesitant to lynch US was that he was furthering discussion. Since that isn't in play, I think Cereza has become the elephant in the room given US' highly Agressive behavior and unwillingness to let his own scumminess be discussed' I didn't really get this feeling at all from Rediamond's previous opinion on Sam. What happened to Quags and Metal Bagon? And the Leethoof theory seems to have been totally discarded. Um, wanna explain when you get the chance? :/
  • Wait wtf. Okay, there's a five day gap between #453 and #537, but Rediamond comes out of nowhere during the Staraptor Roll, pulls his vote off UncleCereza, and starts on Ditto, about whom he was quite confident before.
    • Since he was throwing Ditto under the bus while everyone else seemed content to leave him alone, I do not believe Rediamond and Ditto are both scum. The reason I don't think this is a gambit is because Ditto seemed quite happy to have the heat off him and was too busy to defend himself so I doubt if he were mafia another mafia would encourage Rediamond to randomly accuse him, and because Rediamond wasn't really drawing attention to himself before and this was a pretty attention-drawing thing imo... Still a contradiction I would like to see explained.
    • It's possible this was a randomish and desperate attempt to protect Staraptor Call from the Staraptor Roll by diverting attention to Ditto, but that would be pretty dumb since his vote was on Cereza and his best shot of saving Staraptor Call was by keeping it there and persuading other people to join the tidal wave.
    • Worth noting that he pulled his Cereza vote, which was made in a somewhat bandwagony way during the Cereza vote, possibly to save her and not Staraptor Call.
    • Really does not like Ditto anymore, as evidenced by his Day 2 vote of him in #575.
  • His last post was #620, where he shows a bit more indecision about Cereza... again. I'm just getting the impression he's a flipflopper now. His reasoning on Quagsiresa is a little strange since we discourage pubclaiming and yet he condemns Quags for 'taking forever to say it'.


Verdict: Has done some weird things, not sure if inexperienced or not since he seems to know how Metal Bagon plays and I don't follow small mafias as much as I used to. As mentioned, I don't believe Rediamond and Ditto are scum together, and that Rediamond is a flipflopper. Mixed read, would like to say tentatively townie if Ditto is scum and would like to see explanations of the things I raised. However, if Cereza is scum, I am way more suspicious of Rediamond, especially if we know whether Ditto is clean or not.

Leethoof

Okay, so there's a bit of a consensus he's noobtown, apparently, but I would like to examine that for myself. Certainly, Leethoof's behaviour is hard to get a solid read on, as it's eccentric in a way I've never seen before. I actually didn't intend to comment on him, because frankly I just got a 'hi I'm trying to help but have no clue what I'm doing' vibe from his whole thing with offering himself up to die, but then his post confused me, so can someone please elaborate on what he said in post #138?


  • #138: 'I thought that NOC Mafia had a dayline, but and thought that sacrificing my useless mind for an extra X hours of discussion would be for the good of the village.'
    • Am I just missing something (I accept very well I could be since lol I'm tired and trying to closely read every post itt) or is that completely backwards logic? He said he didn't know lynch ends at majority but still wtf was he trying to do, lynch himself and prove he's clean with absolutely no information to go off so people could discuss this zero amount of information for the rest of the day... and kill the possibility of lynching mafia D1? Or did he think him lynching himself would extend the day or... ?__________? Maybe he didn't just think this one through...
    • I find if he was actually trying to pull that off it would be completely senseless for mafia, but also senseless for town. However it is so blatantly senseless for mafia due to no players going in suicidal unless trolling (which I did not get the impression of at all) and slightly less senseless for noobtown that this tips him in favour of noobtown.
    • Mafia wouldn't try to kill discussion by sacrificing themselves completely randomly D1. I have to assume even newbies have basic survival instinct, but they certainly might try to come across as noobtown D1 and use that as a façade, which I didn't really consider too strongly at first, since I found his behaviour too bizarre to classify as either textbook scum or textbook noobtown until he then asked in the same post if the mafia is allowed to talk between themselves because that's like textbook 'I'm noobtown' and stands out way more.
    • Either way, I expect Leethoof will be around for a long time if people think he's noobtown, since now the mafia won't want to kill him since he claims he's useless if he is indeed noobtown, and now the village won't want to lynch him since there are far more alarming targets than someone everyone assumed ages ago was noobtown, so it's to our benefit to observe his behaviour closely imo. I know this is a bit inconclusive, but honestly I just wanted to know what other people thought about this because, well, colour me perplexed @ post #138.
  • #152: Reads. In general these reads weren't very substantial and were backed up by very little in the way of evidence, but they were at least reads and give us some insight onto Leethoof's rudimentary relationships with other users.
    • Felt UncleSam was totally clean, did not offer any reasons for it which is odd.
    • Again with the apparently new users thinking Ditto's IIoA was useful...
  • Given that Leethoof offered very little information, I find it very bizarre that he would be apparently so very certain Sam is clean, since his reticence implies a lack of confidence to me (especially in context of his inexperienced actions earlier).
  • Leethoof apparently grew up a lot from his absent-minded behaviour, since his post in #333, despite not being that long in IRL time after his confused, ditzy posts, makes use of critical thinking pretty well.
    • Whether it's right? I can't say, since a lot hinges on: was Leethoof really persuaded? Was it a gambit by the mafia? etc. But good post from him, though I notice his deference to other users after making a confident statement in 'However, other players have explained...'. His post was pretty similar to Yeti's, but he mentioned that.
  • #610 implicates Cereza. I can understand where he's coming from, though his reasoning smacks a bit of inexperience, since I refuse to believe the mafia only has newbies and any experienced player would know revealing the persuader early for a D1 lynch would be dumb unless they were aiming at some kind of gambit, since NOC mafia is less about actual vote control earlygame and more about manipulating people with your words. Still, it seems fair enough to me and supports my noobtown verdict.


Verdict: Yeah, noobtown, ballsiest scum ever, or this is being orchestrated by someone. I'm inclined to take his word on the persuader just because I think he's overall fairly townie.

Metal Bagon/loudkirbyking

Last one for tonight. I'm not even done thinking about every user yet. I don't plan to post these long lists for every user, just the ones that really stuck out at me. Because of all the subbings, it's hard to keep up with everyone...


  • Shows up at post #198, bandwagons billy's entire posts, makes some inexplicable comment about being tempted to vote for Quagsires, makes some indecisive and uncertain on-the-fence reads, and explains his inactivity as 'first day back at school'. Which means he could've posted before.
    • In his defence, though, this game was pretty active the first few days so it could be overwhelming, but bad excuse there.
    • Basically I agree with Blue_Tornado in that Metal Bagon's entire post contradicted his reliance on billy's leads. 'Most of his posts don't help much'. Okay, then why do you think his reads are so good? Actually, I'd like to know that regardless. 'He seems pro-village and is sparking good discussion' but you think his posts don't help much? This theme continues for the whole of the post, with him making a clear comment then distancing himself desperately from them to give the illusion of uncertainty.
    • This is the same shit TalkingLion was doing, even with the lack of explanation. At least TL demonstrated some reasoning. I thought 'He seems hellbent on getting me subbed out, so I'm unable to give a non-biased read on him.' was a little dodgy too (wrt Quagsires) because, well, can't you just own up and admit you've been inactive? That's why Quaggy wanted to sub you out, dude, it's not like you have to *~*~*OMGUS*~*~* over being requested to be subbed. Overall he just refused to take responsibility for a single thing he said. I would expect someone to be a little more confident by the nearly-200th post.
  • Comes back in #203: 'Edited my read on Billymils so it makes sense.'
    • Man, I'm so confused. So wtf was I reading? The original one was somehow more confusing than what I just read? ._. PLEASE DON'T REMOVE OLD INFORMATION, GUYS. It makes it very hard for us to go back and refer to stuff you did, and it's like covering your tracks.
    • Offers to lynch if B_T wants, it's not that huge a deal honestly but just seemed like he was trying to go along with what was expected of him. Which is neutral by itself but I thought that was a little strange.
  • Returns in #435, apparently hates the game now. '@@Vote Quagsires@@ to break the deadlock because even though I'm not trying (no night role :(...) I may as well give a sub the opportunity to enjoy this game more then I am.'
    • Okay, why would you pubclaim? Your poor sub...
    • Quagwagon again -_- This vote might as well be random, for all we know Metal Bagon flipped a fucking coin. I am of the opinion here that Metal Bagon could not handle the pressure and that's why he got sick of the game. Could be true of a townie too, but I'd like to think a townie would be a little more considerate...
  • loudkirbyking was subbed in on the 5th.
    • Didn't post anything of substance since he seemed to find the whole thing very confusing (can't blame him, this thread is huge).
    • Thoughtfully removed the vote on Quagsires since he didn't know whether to stick by it, however this may have just been damage control.
  • He unvoted Cereza in #481, so I think he must have deleted his vote on her, which is seriously a bit of a pain for me :( Oh, well.
    • Wish he had provided more reasoning, but was brave enough to call out B_T and billy, so props for that and I certainly find both users extremely interesting.
    • 'diverting attention towards inactives' I sincerely believe pressuring inactives is a good thing and I don't know why people are arguing it isn't. It's only bad when you do it to destroy discussion of an active user and deflect accusations / protect someone, which may have been what lkk was referring to.
    • 'And, honestly, I have no reason to be hating on these people, especially since I just subbed in and have had not even a finger pointed at me to post since I walked in, which seems a little strange behavior from how often you prodded inactives previously, but I dunno.' Okay, so uncertainty there. I guess if he hadn't read the thread that's acceptable, but quite evidently he does have reason or he wouldn't have brought anything up. May have been trying to be inoffensive?
  • Still doesn't like billy as of #612, but I can't really say much since he's being so vague. lkk, your theories could be quite interesting, so I'd like to see you, if you get the time, go through and get some examples to back them up with, and show a bit more confidence. We're 650 posts in now -- you're allowed to make mistakes as long as you back them up! So, yeah, consider this the request wrt 'Yet again, I can go back and find some stuff later if requested and what-not'.


Verdict: I don't honestly mean this as an attack or anything, but Metal Bagon, if you were town, you shouldn't've signed up and done that stuff. Pretty suspicious, but then again Metal Bagon was like this in the last NOC mafia I followed (and he did flip wolf) so maybe it's just inexperience (though that doesn't mean he's inexperienced town, just inexperienced!). lkk is harder to read. So inconclusive read.

Would also like to add in my own post I seem to find myself (completely inadvertently) attacking people who protect Ditto... and people whose opinions suddenly change for no explanation. The first is probably just in part due to coincidence and in second part due to my suspicion of Ditto, and the second is because I hate unexplained contradictions and see it as the sign of people bandwagoning.

There are some other users I am formulating an opinion on and would like to discuss tomorrow, but for now I hope this opens up a bit of discussion and gives people a clearer read on KaxPluff. After all, users like Staraptor Call, billymills, Yeti, and Blue_Tornado are more interesting than the ones I talked about imo, but I'm still thinking a bit (so this isn't a ~*~*finger of suspicion*~*~ or anything). Hopefully those posts won't be as long. If there's anything or anyone someone would like to see me analyse in-depth, ask away!

One thing you can await from me is my thoughts on users: Quagsires and UncleCereza (already half-written so this post may make reference to an as yet unexisting analysis of US, which I apologise in advance for, but honestly I just wanted to be done with this post), whom I think are quite scummy and plan to elaborate on.

Also, dunno if the hosts have been on it, but we need a mass activity prod imo... like via PM, not in the thread.

For now, I will tentatively @@Lynch loudkirbyking@@ in the hopes it encourages him to answer my questions.
 
Hello, just wanted to ask Blue_Tornado to clarify on this paragraph from post #193 before I contemplate him further:

I also love how people are still reluctant to vote. The townie's vote is their best asset and worst enemy. By avoiding using it, you're being cautious (this is scummy) and are hindering the town at the same time.
Click to expand...
While I agree with the sentiment that voting is an important analytic tool, why do you think cautiousness = scummy? There are cautious behaviours that are scummy, like the shit TL and Ditto were doing when they refused to call anyone out or commit to an opinion (but that imo comes down more to buddying and not wanting to draw attention to oneself), but caution isn't inherently scummy.

I do think at this stage that townies should be far more confident and assertive than most of us have been, but recklessness certainly isn't a good thing, and the main people I would expect to be less than cautious in their judgments are informed people... like scum. It's very easy for scum not to be cautious since they know for sure they can accuse someone. Anyone, because other than the possibility of wolf, all the users they accuse are safe targets.
 
Being cautious in a mafia game is: fear that something will happen to you. Kills, hooks, whatever. Generally lynches, though. When you're cautious in a NOC game, you basically don't want to say stuff that will get people to pursue you. Townies are expected to overcome this risk since being cautious with your opinions also hurts the town. Scum have all the reasons to stay cautious.

Of course, I guess I'm used to games that are more active than this. What I was saying there was mostly to prod people. I wasn't going to accuse 20 players for being cautious, after all...

Your post is big. Like, really big. I'll get to reading it sometime.
 
Yeah, sorry about that. I didn't really want to make it long but I tend to talk about things in a non-concise manner, I guess, and since I was going through the thread as I wrote it I just included everything noteworthy that ran through my mind. I appreciate that it's something of a deterrent to replying, but since deadline will come soon enough I didn't want to split it up more than I already have.

(I swear the final product was shorter than the original draft though.)

Thanks for your explanation! It helps get a picture on where you're coming from.
 
Yep Ack, I'm back from the void! Are you sure you don't want to sub in? Good times hahaha.

Ok now on to business. I'll try to go through and post my initial gut feelings for everyone since reading through the thread (nothing too in-depth, 600+ post is alot to catch up on).

askaninjask - Clean, had a clean, pro-village feeling on him before reading that Quag checked him, still think he is clean.

billymills - Trolls alot, but that's what he does. Seems a little quiet so far, but nothing too out of the ordinary. Clean feeling at this point, maybe a neutral fishing for items. I would really like to know why he wants said items, but can see the need for him to keep his role under wraps.

Blue_Tornado - Seemed to be butting heads with Ditto. Alot of B_T's posts seem to be deflecting attention from himself and others. Also, the beginning of post #329 just reads to me "Snipe, my mafia buddy, you better post something because people are getting suspicious." Puts a little heat on on his friend but quickly diverts the attention to others. Not really sure how you have escaped the glare of the village so far. Scum. I know calling out someone who thinks I am scum makes me seem suspicious, but I really do think you are scum.

Brammi - Village, a little unfamiliar with Smogon mafia, but village

Crux - A little quiet, but I get a clean vibe from him

Ditto/J^2 - Clean, duh

Infinity.Cypher Staraptor Call - Maybe I missed it, but what caused the roll on Staraptor Call yesterday? Not a statement of on how I feel about SC, but a genuine question. Could some please answer? Otherwise, hasn't said to much to get much of a read. For now, I will say village.

Jalmont - Liked the little of what he said early in the game, but is very quiet. DANGEROUS! Village for now, but a possible wolf suspect.

Kaxtar Jumpluff - Just subbed in for a non-existant user. You suspicious of Ditt/me, but you explained your stance well. TBH, Ditto was acting defensively yesterday, but most of Ditto's posts were answering direct questions.

kingofkongs - strangely silent, but still in the game. Scum feeling from him.

Lady Salamence DetroitLolcat -No reason not to believe your claim, but why not say anything last night? Everyone should know you are commentator. Please answer that question. Otherwise, village.

Leethoof - Noobville, not much else to say.

Metal Bagon loudkirbyking
TalkingLion Dummy007 - I'm going to lump the above two together. Neither previous user said anything of substance. Looking to get a read on their subs. Village gut feeling for now. I was somewhat suspicious of Metal Bagon at the start of the game.

MK Ultra - Also nothing of note. I'm about 50/50 on you right now.

nEsp Empoof - Seems pro-village so far. Just a gut feeling that he is clean.

Paperblade - Scum. Doing enough to make friends and seem active, but also staying under the radar. Watch out!

Quagsires - I share Ditto's feelings on Quag, even though that's what got Ditto into trouble. We could lynch him to get some info on DLC and aska (and possibly clean myself as well), but with the BG dead already (lame), we will probably find out if Quagsires is lying tomorrow morning. If he survives the night, we have a lynch target for tomorrow. But, I think he is clean.

Rediamond - Scum feeling from just skimming your few posts. Don't shoot the messenger.

Steven Snype Snike -B_T's scum buddy. Was a little thrown-off by your recent claim of information. I don't know why you would give info on your role without someone pressuring you. Seems a little over-eager. Scum, but possible noobville.

UncleSam Cereza - I thought US was clean, and I think your clean as well. I know it was US's usual style, but mafia in NOC games usually try to stay under the radar as much as possible.

Yeti - One of the hardest players to get a read on, seems like your thoughts are all over the place. I'm 50/50 on you.

zorbees - Another dangerous player. It would not surprise me at all if you were wolf.

Anyways, these are my thoughts on everyone. Sorry I couldn't get into too much detail. Reading through 600+ posts and not missing anything is hard. These are just my initial feelings after reading through the thread.
 
To respond to jumpluff and MK(Sorry, just saw it when digging through the thread) about my suspicions on billy...

He did have some better posts, even more so when US was on to kinda spark a fire of doing so. By better, I mean more in the area of contributing more, having things that seemed to stick out as village-ish... but, I also noticed it seemed to kinda go over some of his... for lack of better words lacking posts.

Firstly, he claimed desiring two items: A bell, and parchment. He never really explained why he wanted these, needed these, or how in the world he knew they were in the game. I've yet to play NOC, but I doubt that a random village would require an item to do something... I could be wrong, but I would assume not. Not to mention that, even though he said to just press the issue, everyone seemed to ignore that. I personally would like explanation for both of these things. And even more, in #641, he refuses to answer about it, which makes him seem even more fishy.

Secondly, he seems to be pretty sensitive to whoevers 'buddying' him(Post #236). Perhaps I find it a bit odd that it's more so "Hey, no, I'm not with him. This guy, however, I'm with." It just seems really awkward in there.

I will admit, billy's had some great posts(#293 and #414 for example), but the later(And in some cases his much earlier posts) we get, the more... shorter... and he tends to want to end the day pretty quick. I realize that such a long day could get tiring, but it's probably the best thing to do in order to get info, right?

Also, I'd be willing to point out that billy changing his vote at the last minute caused the no lynch. That seems very odd to me as for why he'd do that to get a no lynch vote. Mind explaining the, literal, last minute vote change?

I'm not going to lynch billy or anything for answers, but that's my thoughts in a nutshell of him, and I'd like some explanation, or perhaps some posts I missed that he talked about these issues and actually explained his reasoning for this. I might've missed it, but don't think so.
 
I know this is going to be read as a defense but seriously.

J-Squared. Why am I the only one you seem to read as "covering for scumbuddies" and "diverting attention"? Accusations such as these have been running around everywhere, and the fact that I am the only one you find scummy -- no, scum -- due to these reasons is fishy.
 
j squared can you go a bit more in depth. for example, your reads on people like myself, empoof, rediamond, etc, don't really provide reasoning other than "i feel like he is town/scum"

EDIT: hi pluff :D
 
WAIT. SHIT.

Now I gotta explain myself...

Okay, turns out I have a bit of time, so I'll post my top two suspicions.

Note: I AM NEW TO THIS SHIT. So my reads might be a bit...inexperienced.

I don't like the looks of billymills or Blue_Tornado. I kind of agree with some that billy seems to be fishing for items/roles, and lkk kinda outlined my feelings fairly well.

Blue seems to be a bit hyperactive, and jumpy when people accuse him.

As neither of my scumtells are overly definite, I refrain from casting a vote atm.
 
Votecount:
MK Ultra (3) - askaninjask, Jalmont, zorbees
j-squared (2) - Rediamond, Blue_Tornado
Quagsires (2) - Paperblade, kingofkongs
billymills (1) - Snike
loudkirbyking (1) - jumpluff
DetroitLolCat (1) - billymills
Cereza (1) - Leethoof
Leethoof (1) - Empoof

Any votes that are not in the correct format will not count.

If you have not @unvote@ed a previous vote, that is the vote that will count.
 
Empoof said:
gotta love being seen as clean through gut feelings. Ain't that the shit.
Click to expand...

I said they were undeveloped. Besides, it's not like any of us have much to go on...

EDIT: Ok, just to show I have SOME conviction, @@Vote billymills@@

DOUBLE EDIT: Yes, I have very little to prove I'm clean. Imma look thru SC's posts, and get a somewhat decent response tonight.
 
lol i was more talking about J-squared, no worries mate. I'm basically reiterating what zorbees is saying. There should be reasons I'm pro-town rather than a feeling...
 
zorbees said:
j squared can you go a bit more in depth. for example, your reads on people like myself, empoof, rediamond, etc, don't really provide reasoning other than "i feel like he is town/scum"
Click to expand...

I'll try to remember what gave me the gut feelings on the three you mentioned. Once again, this was a of reading to catch up on. I basically read through everything, making a few small notes along the way about a players guilt/innocence. Thus, I was basically left with just a general feeling about most of the players (especially with so many people being subbed-out and/or barely posting).

Zorbees - You've made a decent amount of posts in the thread (enough to not be asked to speak up), but not enough real substance in your posts to draw attention to yourself. This is a sign of experienced scum. I'd love to hear you opinion of the current billymills/Snike situation. Also, your thoughts on B_T.

Empoof - Took over for someone you barely posted. Pretty active, not afraid to take a stance and stick with it. All this leads me to think he is village.

Rediamond - If I remember right, I listed him as scum because he seemed eager to jump on bandwagons. He also seems like he changes his opinions alot. Looking back at his post history, he doesn't post much in this thread, but posts on alot of other threads. Somewhat fishy for a guy who claims he is strapped for time.

Anyway, if you have anymore questions or want more more details about my opinions on any other players, just ask.
 
Wow, never realised just how suspicious my actions look. To clarify, yes this is my first NOC game. I only know of Metal Bagon from playing against him in my first game. As for my inconsistency on various users, it's honestly that it takes me a little while to fully think through a conclusion in an NOC game, and my initial opinions on UncleSam were far less solid than my early posts would read. Mostly, I appreciated Ditto and US early on day one for getting a lot more information out there than otherwise possible. However, I later got different opinions of both.

US later became more defensive and dominating (possible?), and I began to think he was somewhat suspicious. My reasoning on Ditto stands where it has in my previous posts.

As for the idea that I may be an SC scum buddy, I had reached my conclusion on Ditto earlier in the schoolday, and posted before I actually read the SC bandwagon around it due to host-prodding for the inactives to post.

I have yet to finalise an opinion on SC, and will not post before making a conclusion to avoid further

Quagsires is another user I hold in suspicion. My basic opinion is that it took him far too long to reply to a situation that was casting serious doubt upon himself. I realise that he could just be incredibly busy, but even I wouldn't take that long to reply. That, and his role would be nearly impossible to disprove bar an actual alliance checker sticking their neck into the public and risking an almost certain kill.

However, I still recognise that he could be valuable, and want to see a Ditto lynch before a Quagsires one. That, and if he is alliance checker and not scum, he won't be lasting long anyways.

E:

@Above: ASB actions take 2 minutes to plan. A solid Mafia post with the length and depth I want to make up for my earlier crap is far longer.
 
The way billymills was "item fishing" doesn't worry me too much. He wasn't looking for particular players to claim they had an item, so I don't think him being a thief is necessarily true. It makes me think he needs an item for his role or something, although he may be doing this to make people think this. I get an overall town vibe from the majority of the things he has done so this doesn't worry me too much.

Regarding B_T, I find him hard to read. He seems like he has been active and contributing but I can't really remember much of what he has done in detail. I don't have the time to reread through the thread right now to form a better opinion, but I am leaning town on him.
 
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