OU CCAT: Zoroark [See Post #663]

@Ithilanor Well Priority Rain Dance Tornadus is certainly not a new thing, so yeah it could work. But we also need a spinner, so why not combine the two in Starmie if we decide to take that route?

Anyway I've just realized that no one has actually nominated a full Haxorus set yet, so I'm going to go ahead and do one for us.

@ Life Orb/Dragon Plate
Nature: Adamant / Jolly
Ability: Rivalry
EVs: 252 Atk / 220 Spe / 36 HP
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance / Sword Dance
- Sword Dance / Substitute

Substitute would mainly be for maintaining the illusion, but can also act as a buffer against Priority after using SD or DD, allowing for extra kills. Also, blocks burns from the likes of Jellicent allowing for easier set up sometimes. SD and Dragon dance ensure that the opponent PAYS for a misprediction. It's one thing to screw up and lose a Pokemon, it's another to screw up and quite possibly have your entire team swept by a +2 Haxorus. After an SD even Skarmory is 2HKO'd with either item (though Rocks guarantee it with Draco Plate), meaning absolutely NOTHING can take the hit and live. Furthermore, they'll be scared to bring in their Skarmory or other steel right off the bat due to the threat of instantly losing it to Zoroark... and then REALLY being screwed. Dragon Dance is for against more offensive teams, Sword Dance for more stallish teams Haxorus outspeeds without the boost. Either way, shit is going to fall. I HIGHLY recommend this set because its offensive and illusionary synergy with Zoroark is insane. Of course exactly what combination of boosting moves and Substitute will have to be worked out through trial and error; I can't theorymon myself the best combination of the three well enough without testing.

Choice Band is also a possibility (I don't like Scarf as much because we really want that game ending threat there, which just isn't present with Scarf), but I like the idea that we can force a checkmate decision with just the threat of Zoroark combined with Haxorus with the boosting moves. Also, Choice band doesn't get a guaranteed 2HKO on Skarmory, and that shit is just too awesome to pass up.

Don't forget that this being Hyper Offense, there's no reason we can't run both Terrakion AND Haxorus on the same team. Between the two of them and Zoroark, the opponent will be hard pressed to not get swept.

@Jimera0, you need to use Rivalry, not Mold Breaker, or else the Illusion will be ruined. :(

Anyways, I've been running SubDD Haxorus with Lum, and it's been cool as it can switch in on random waters and start setting up. Putting Haxorus in the sixth slot is also funny shit as the moment they see Haxorus they'll label it as a Zoroark and bring in Jirachi or something while I set up a Sub on their Body Slam (dgaf, Lum Berry), DD, and sweep the team.

Team I've had the most success with as of late:
Zoroark has sort of been pulling its weight, often weakening Gliscor enough for Terrak to pull through. So far, there hasn't been a Scizor stupid enough to come in, though.

Also, running Forretress really sucks, but, ironically, I need a Terrakion and Haxorus check as well as a spinner. Thinking about replacing Toxic Spikes with Revenge to troll Tyranitar.

Anyways, this team is actually doing rather well with hyper offense. Hazards are an excellent idea for taking advantage of the switch confusion Zoroark brings, so I'll probably be nominating some hazard users later on after we've established the partner(s).

(Terrakion and Haxorus are awesome.)

Also, as you can see my team carries all forms of hazards but with no spinblocker. You may be thinking, "Why not use Gengar?"

Gengar, despite its synergy with Zoroark, is actually a really mediocre Illusion partner. Although you can lure Scizor with Zoroark disguised as Gengar, it would just be running an inferior Sub + 3 Attacks Gengar. Other than Scizor, the same things beat Gengar and Zoroark -- Blissey, Jirachi, Tentacruel...

So PLEASE, don't nominate Gengar.

So I've kinda been following this thread recently and decided to actually post for once.

I agree 100% with Woodchuck that Gengar isn't a good Zoroark partner in practice, as they aren't luring in eachother's counters (except SDef Jirachi) which is ultimately what the team should be trying to do here. We need to take into consideration that factoring in substitute + LO damage, Zoroark is rarely going to be able to bluff itself as another Pokemon more than once over the course of a battle due to the nature of hyper offense, and so we really need to make that one bluff count. We also need to remember that you won't always be able to bluff Zoroark as the Pokemon you want to mid- to late-game since you can't necessarily control what Pokemon is in your last slot.

Bearing this in mind I think that we need to play Zoroark to its strengths as a lure for Skarmory, Slowbro, Ferrothorn, Forretress etc early-game while disguised as a hard-hitting physical attacker. Woodchuck's team seems to be an excellent example of what we should be aiming for. Although it has some questionable Pokemon choices in Forretress (looks like a weak link by tossing away momentum for the sake of spin support; the idea of hyper offense is to give your opponent no chances to set-up) and Politoed (making Zoroark less efficient at taking out fat steels like Skarmory / Ferrothorn / Forretress / Bronzong etc), the main core seems extremely efficient.

tl;dr I feel the best way of using Zoroark is going to be using a classic Physical Hyper Offense team but with Zoroark in place of a physical attacker. Basically just Hazards / Screens lead Deoxys-D, Zoroark and then any 4 Pokemon that typically get walled by bulky steels and/or Slowbro (SD Scizor, SD/DD Haxorus, SD Terrakion, ScarfMence, DDNite, AgiliGross, SD Virizon, OTRZong?). If we are playing Hyper Offense then theres really no point in a running a spinner, just have a fast Taunt lead and keep on the offensive pressure with set-up mons and give them 0 chances to get up their hazards. All of the aforementioned Pokemon are walled by your typical physical walls, so if we go with something like that then we won't get into the shitty situation of 'I want to send out Zoroark and lure in my opponents Skarmory so Haxorus can sweep, but Starmie is in my 6th slot!' mid-game.

I've probably repeated what some other people have said, but I've seen a couple of people talking about getting partners to eliminate Zoroark's counters as if they are trying to facilitate a Zoroark sweep which I think is most definitely the wrong direction to be going in.

Virizion @ Life Orb / Lum Berry
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Close Combat
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Stone Edge

Nominating SD Virizion (late), mainly because I feel it abuses our chosen Zoroark set far more than the nominated Calm Mind set; Calm Mind Virizion shouldn't have many problems bypassing Pokemon such as Skarmory, Slowbro, Ferrothorn and Forretress, which is what Zoroark is primarily being used for. Instead, Calm Mind Virizion finds itself struggling to get past many of the same Pokemon that Zoroark does. Calm Mind Virizion was nominated for the ease at which it beats Delko's team, but if Blissey can come in before its acquired enough boosts it can drop a Toxic (assuming no Lum) and then the team can outstall it. I feel Hidden Power [Ice] SD Virizion is the best possible set to fully abuse our Zoroark support, whilst still having the ability to bypass Gliscor, which was one of the determing factors in the Calm Mind Virizion nomination. Stone Edge could also be used if we don't want Volcarona setting-up on us.

i agree terrakion is a good pokemon to use because slowbro will get decimate dby zoroark and we could always run HP Ice for gliscor. If the oppoent does not figure who the Pokemon is they will be dead immediately.
I also want to say that whoever uses this team is going to have a hard time because you have to be somewhat good to predict with Zoroark, imo.

double dance lum haxorus is the best choice. they are both the same to all hazards and once your ferrothorn/skarmory/forretress is dead, the only way you can beat a +1/+1 haxorus is through priority.

Haxorus (F) @ Lum Berry
Trait: Rivalry
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Dance

you can use brick break or dual chop or whatever, but i like swords dance since it means stall becomes a non issue. i dont know how rivalry works but most pokemon are male so exploit that to come off with a +1 already.

First off, let me say that I think SubSD/SubDD Haxorus is a great place to start, forcing the opponent to play extremely risky or extremely safe, as you can't try and take a middle ground with Haxorus. Depending on how the opponent plays, we can use it to further mess with them until we get that Zoroark sniper-shot.
Given that this team will be Heavy Offense, it may not seem like we'll have time to play mind-games with the opponent. but HO is not just about clicking on your strongest attack every single turn. It has real strategy to it, and we will be able to abuse Zoroark, I'm sure.
Furthermore, Haxorus rarely carries Substitute, and it has the possibility of "tipping them off" that it's Zoroark. Until they realize that yes, our Haxorus is carrying Sub, and they just gave him a free turn. We do have to keep in mind that everyone will have access to this team, however, so we can't rely on that too much. But Haxorus is good enough in its own right that we shouldn't have to.
The fact that they take the same amount of passive damage is also encouraging. We don't have to keep the Illusion going for 6 turns in a row, but SR/Sandstorm damage should be equal, because we do need at least one turn, and those could potentially ruin it.
In short, I like Haxorus.

However, I would like to make a nomination for a Pokemon that no one has really talked about yet: Infernape



Infernape@Life Orb
Jolly, Blaze
252 Atk/252 Spe/ 4 HP
Swords Dance
Fire Punch/Flare Blitz
Close Combat
Stone Edge

Infernape would make an excellent partner for Zoroark. After an SD, Infernape is walled by Slowbro, Jellicent... and well, not much else. Coincidentally, these are two Pokemon that Zoroark would love to have switch in on it, and get promptly OHKOed. Infernape's counters so perfectly match up with things Zoroark can kill. Vice Versa, the opposite also true, but since Zoroark is not necessarily a sweeper, I figured that removal of Infernape's counters was more important.

What of Infernape's checks? Well, Lati@s immediately comes to mind. They can switch in on Infernape however they please. This is brilliant with a Substitute Zoroark. If they switch in as Zoroark uses Substitute, then Dark Pulse for the KO will open up the enemy team so much. While most players are more cautious with Zoroark around, the sheer safety with which Lati@s can beat Infernape will often prompt them to switch in anyway. And since they can out-speed Zoroark, they'll be less cautious of him taking them down after they get in.
Zoroark is also commonly checked by Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Landorus, Scarf Rotom-W, etc., but they unfortunately will not switch in as willy-nilly as Lati@s. This is much less of a problem than not being able to handle Lati@s would've been, though.

The real beauty of Infernape is its typing. If Zoroark throws out a random Focus Blast, or a random Flamethrower early-game, the ruse is not up. Infernape can totally carry Focus Blast or Flamethrower, so we don't have to play as carefully to perpetuate the Illusion. It perpetuates itself, and Zoroark is much more free to attack throughout the match. Infernape can carry Substitute, but the brilliance of Flamethrower and Focus Blast being available the whole battle is what astounds me.
They take the same amount of passive damage, and both carry a Life Orb, so residual damage will not spoil our Illusion with infernape, which is another benefit of it.

I chose SD Nape over Mix Nape because this is going to be an HO team, and Mix Nape can't really sweep. What I mean is, it's a good wallbreaker, but it lacks the power to keep going after it breaks up a core. I also chose SD Nape over NP Nape. This is because NP Nape requires Sun support in order to take down Salamence, Tentacruel, Rotom-W, etc., and popular opinion is that we do not want a Sun team. SD Nape doesn't have such problems.

SD Nape fits in well with our Heavy offense theme, pressuring the opponent, and even if it doesn't get to sweep late-game, it still forces the opponent to be on their toes, making Zoroark's sniper-shot all the more possible. It can break down Skarmory/Forretress/Ferrothorn early game, leaving enemies wide open to something like Haxorus later on. If Infernape is going for a late-game sweep, the resistance to Bullet Punch is certainly appreciated. SD Nape is a natural for an HO team, and his counters are exactly what Zoroark can kill.

Lastly, let's tie Infernape back into our Team Threatlist. Let's look at Delko's Benelux Stall (one of the three that Pocket said to focus on right now). If we can have Zoroark KO Jellicent, the other five members will all fall to a +2 Infernape (Gliscor needs prior damage, but it will fall). Tyranitar, Skarmory, Forretress, Blissey... even Gliscor with prior damage! The way that Infernape can dominate this team if Jellicent dies showcases exactly how Infernape would fit so well on our CCAT team!

It's 2 am for me, so I might not be formulating my thoughts very well, but I hope that you can all see why Infernape would be an amazing choice for our first partner on this team.

I think the initial problem with Infernape is that it also struggles with Tentacruel, and since our Zoroark is not running Nasty Plot, its struggling to beat it. There is also the fact that
Infernape NEVER runs Substitute, Haxorus I feel we can get away with, however, If I had a Latias in, I knew that there was a Zoroark on the team, and saw an 'Infernape' use Substitute, id switch the hell out since it just sends up waay to many red flags. For SD Infernape to be more effective, I personally would run Sucker Punch Zoroark, since you can cripple Latias better thus winning.

Its also important to note that while Zoroark might succeed in taking down Jellicent, Infernape is still not sweeping Delkos team due to Scarf Tar revenging, and Gliscor is still available to wall Infernape if it fails in getting up a Swords Dance. I just think, with Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Mence, Scarf Landorus, Scarf Rotom W, Gliscor, Tentacruel, Lati@s, and Jellicent all being common ish its going to be tricky to successfully sweep with Swords Dance Infernape, I would much rather use Haxorus which can use Sub to dissuade easy revenge killing, or can use Dragon Dance to make it tougher to revenge.

PS if you want to crush Delko Stall running Timid Nasty Plot Lucario with Dark Pulse / Aura Sphere / Vaccuum Wave. is a MUCH better option than SD Infernape.

I am definitely seconding Jimera0's Double Dance Haxorus. That thing can Dragon Dance against offensive teams or Swords Dance against stall to really decimate their cores, and it only takes one turn to do that. Zoroark is excellent at gaining those free turns for its teammates, and the fact that it takes the same passive damage as Haxorus is just an added bonus.I prefer that we run Draco Plate on Haxorus, since the residual damage on Haxorus will really add up quickly, and by the time Haxorus uses one of its moves, it will be pretty obvious that it is not Zoroark so we do not need to use the same item. Getting the 2HKO on Skarm with rocks is pretty magnificent as well.

Yeah, I'm thinking that Double Dance Haxorus is the way to go.

Good stuff, guys :o

Although it's a bonus if Zoroark's Illusion partner is known for using Substitute, it's not manditory. It helps to deceive the opponent when Zoroark puts up a Substitute, but I personally see Substitute as a way to aid Zoroark's sweep by protecting it from revenge killers than for facilitating an Illusion. Zororak's Illusion functions fine without Substitute, especially if the switch-in to its Illusion partner is obvious. Zoroark can nail the switch-in with the appropriate move and help set up the condition for a sweep. Zoroark does not have to set up a Substitute, although it does occasionally help ease with prediction.

I think the main condition for its partner should be the Pokemon's ability to lure in Pokemon that are Dark Pulse / Flamethrower food. Naturally Fighting-types and Dragon-types comes to mind. Zoroark destroys Psychic and Ghost-types that plagues Fighting-types, while it Flamethrowers Steel-types that halts Dragon-types in its track. You guys did a good job in picking up on this.

I'd like to thank SlimMan for utilizing the Team Checklist! It's a relief that at least one user understands how to make use of it :d

Basically you look at the defense cores presented in teams, such as Delko's Stall and Hail team, M Dragon's Rain stall team, and Expert Physics's Balance team, and see how Zoroark can lure-and-destroy one of the walls to pave way for a potential sweep.

What can Zoroark lure-and-cripple / destroy?

Delko's Sand Stall:

• Skarmory
• Jellicent
• Forretress
• somewhat Gliscor

M Dragon's Rain Stall:

• somewhat Quagsire
• somewhat Ferrothorn

Delko's Hail Team

• Reuniclus
• Abomasnow
• Kyurem

Expert Physic's Team:

• 
  Slowbro

Delko's sand team is pretty susceptible to Zoroark, with only Blissey to switch-in safely. M Dragon's Rain Stall is more impervious to Zoroark's offense, so our Illusion partner should be self-sufficient against it. Our teammate should also be able to sweep after Zoroark ruins one of the defensive core in Delko and Expert Physic's balanced teams.

So whatever Pokemon we suggest should exploit the holes punched into these mons by Zoroark's surprise attack, and should NOT be countered by other mons that Zoroark cannot easily dispatch.

Let's look at the noms we have so far in context of these conditions:

Haxorus - A fierce mon that is hard to counter in the first place. The main answer is Steel-types which Zoroark can readily dispatch.

• Delko's Hail Team cannot do much other than revenging it with Abomasnow's Ice Shard or absorb Outrages with Heatran.
• Delko's Stall team has a female (x_x) Forretress and Skarmory to screw over Rivalry Haxorus, but Zoroark can hopefully fry them beforehand.
• Expert Physics' Slowbro is taken out by Zoroark's Dark Pulse.
• M Dragon's Female Ferrothorn and Unaware Quagsire sort of rain on Haxorus's parade. This is where Haxorus actually falls short. Zoroark can still soften both of them sufficiently for Haxorus to feast, though.

Terrakion - It has very few counters, most of them Psychic-types that can be dispatched by Zoroark. It's also commonly seen with Substitute, allowing Zoroark to put up a Sub without giving up its identity. Terrakion's immunity to sand can potentially hinder the Illusion, unless Zoroark comes in after a revenge-kill?

• Delko's Hail - Terrakion is a free mon after Reuniclus is taken out by Zoroark's Dark Pulse. It can then only be revenged by Conkeldurr.
• Delko's Stall is more annoying because of the sand damage revealing Zoroark. Zoroark can still cripple Gliscor to pave way for Terrakion.
• M Dragon's team is sort of annoying, because it has Politoed, Tentacruel, and Quagsire that can switch into both Terrakion AND Zoroark. Politoed and Tentacruel are taken out by Terrakion after a SD, though. Quagsire is annoying, but one Dark Pulse should put it into Terrakion's Close Combat KO range.
• Expert Physics Team - take out Slowbro with Zoroark and Terrakion can rip holes (although Landorus would still keep it in check).

Starmie - Hmm, probably not the best Illusion partner, but Zoroark can dispatch spinblockers with Dark Pulse. Zoroark can also lure in Delko's Abomasnow and Kyurem, which is nice. It wont help against getting past Blissey in Delko and M Dragon's stall team, though. Although, Starmie will most likely not be Zoroark's main Illusion partner, we certainly may end up using it later on, since it does pair relatively well with Zoroark :d

Gengar - Against Delko's stall team, it would come in handy to lure unwary ScarfTar's to Pursuit Zoroark disguised as Gengar, letting it take it out with Focus Blast. Zoroark and Gengar would both have trouble against M Dragon's specially defensive Dragonite and Tentacruel, though.

Espeon - Same story with Gengar in that Zoroark can lure and destroy TTar if Focus Blast hits. It fares better than Gengar against M Dragon's Rain stall team, but still gets owned by Dragonite.

Infernape - SlimMan has highlighted some good points. If Zoroark used Flamethrower or Focus Blast, the ruse is still there. Infernape and Zoroark also shares the same vulnerability to weather and hazards conditions, making it rather difficult to differentiate. One of the biggest counters to Infernape, Jellicent and Latias, are easily taken down by Zoroark's Dark Pulse. Even more, Infernape's resistance to Bullet Punch is a huge boon, and we would certainly need to have a solid check against Scizor, who has a tendency of punching through Heavy Offensive teams.

• Delko's Sand - Destroy Jellicent with Zoroark's Dark Pulse and a little bit of damage on Gliscor, and Infernape is good to go. Only Ttar can then stop its rampage.
• Delko's Hail - One Dark Pulse would put Tentacruel into a +2 Stone Edge KO range.
• M Dragon's Rain - Its trickier, because of Tentacruel and Quagsire. Infernape can take out Quagsire after it eats a Dark Pulse, and +2 Close Combat also OHKOs Politoed, which is impressive. After SR, Infernape takes out Dragonite with +2 Stone Edge. Pretty much weaken Tentacruel and Quagsire with Zoroark and other teammates and SD Infernape can clean the rest.

Sorry for not posting this sooner, which may have helped guide the discussion better. Thankfully, ginganinja and Tomahawk steered the discussion in the right path, so keep up the good work, guys!

ginganinja said:

I think the initial problem with Infernape is that it also struggles with Tentacruel, and since our Zoroark is not running Nasty Plot, its struggling to beat it.

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+2 Stone Edge vs 252/252 Bold Tentacruel: 62.6%-73.9%
Zoroark Dark Pulse vs 252/4 Bold Tentacruel: 37.9%-44.8%

A single Dark Pulse puts Tentacruel into Infernape's killing range. In what way is that struggling?

ginganinja said:

There is also the fact that Infernape NEVER runs Substitute, Haxorus I feel we can get away with, however, If I had a Latias in, I knew that there was a Zoroark on the team, and saw an 'Infernape' use Substitute, id switch the hell out since it just sends up waay to many red flags. For SD Infernape to be more effective, I personally would run Sucker Punch Zoroark, since you can cripple Latias better thus winning.

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This is just as much of a problem for Haxorus as it is for Infernape. According to the current usage statistics, 2.5% of Haxorus run Substitute. 2.5%. If you know the opponent has a Zoroark, and you seeing a Haxorus use Substitute DOESN'T send up a bunch of red flags, then there is something wrong with you.

The thing is, Haxorus really has very little reason to run Sub, other than "Zoroark is using it also". Haxorus is not frail-as-shit like Gengar, for example tanking a CB Bullet Punch when it needs to.
Furthermore, Lum Berry is THE most common item on Haxorus, being on more than 1/3 of them, according to the same statistics. Substitute is obviously not Haxorus's main way of avoiding status.

Look, I'm not saying that Substitute in unviable on Haxorus. It's actually quite feasible. But to say that it won't be a tip-off for the opponent is pretty ridiculous.

ginganinja said:

Its also important to note that while Zoroark might succeed in taking down Jellicent, Infernape is still not sweeping Delkos team due to Scarf Tar revenging, and Gliscor is still available to wall Infernape if it fails in getting up a Swords Dance.

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About ScarfTar, Infernape can very easily run Mach Punch to KO it. However, this does have the effect of leaving Infernape vulnerable to being walled by various other threats, so I will concede ScarfTar to you.

But while your point about ScarfTar was valid, your point about Gliscor is not. Skarmory can beat Rock Gem Terrakion if it fails to get an SD up. But Skarmory is not a Rock Gem Terrakion counter, because Terrakion will absolutely smash it after an SD. Almost no sweeper can bulldoze through a team without getting a boost. Don't pretend that this fact makes Infernape a poor choice.

ginganinja said:

I just think, with Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Mence, Scarf Landorus, Scarf Rotom W, Gliscor, Tentacruel, Lati@s, and Jellicent all being common ish its going to be tricky to successfully sweep with Swords Dance Infernape, I would much rather use Haxorus which can use Sub to dissuade easy revenge killing, or can use Dragon Dance to make it tougher to revenge.

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iirc, every single Scarfer you mentioned also revenges Haxorus. To use a sports metaphor, a "negative one" for all teams is essentially the same as a scoreless game.
Additionally, I believe I pointed out why Gliscor, Tentacruel, and Jellicent are not as bad as they seem with Zoroark's help. I'd like to point out that Skarmory has higher usage than Jellicent or Tentacruel, so why haven't you ragged on Haxorus for having a high-usage counter?

Haxorus using Sub was already addressed. It's really not that different than "Infernape" using Sub. And as for Dragon Dance making it tougher to revenge? Ha! It might let it beat Starmie, but Scarf Rotom-W, Landorus, Terrakion, Salamence, etc. are ALL still out-speeding you after a Dragon Dance. It doesn't give them any trouble whatsoever in revenging Haxorus.

edit: ginga, I have nothing but respect for you. It's just..... your anti-Infernape arguments seem pretty poorly constructed. :/

ginganinja said:

PS if you want to crush Delko Stall running Timid Nasty Plot Lucario with Dark Pulse / Aura Sphere / Vaccuum Wave. is a MUCH better option than SD Infernape.

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Crushing Delko Stall was not my point for nominating Infernape at all... it was just the example I used because it was the first team on our Checklist that Pocket listed.

But if you wanna nominate some form of Lucario, you feel free to go right ahead.

haha it was 1 AM so maybe what I did was poorly said.

Anyway

A single Dark Pulse puts Tentacruel into Infernape's killing range. In what way is that struggling?

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I was factoring in Rain Dish + Protect since pretty much every Tentacruel is run on a rain team. Forgive me but I also don't quite know the sequence of events you are talking about. So are you saying that you bring in Zoroark disguised as Infernape, you substitute as I get the free switch, I Scald as you Dark Pulse, Leftovers and Rain Dish heals me, and now you are forced to switch out or die, you made it obvious that its a Zoroark, and Infernape STILL needs to pull out that Swords Dance somewhere AND I have a good chance to Pain Dish + Protect myself up to get me out of Stone Edge kill chance, AND im still a good enough check to +0 Infernape. I just think that in a hard hitting, fast paced Metagame that we are in Infernape struggles to set up as it is, it also struggles against Rain Teams (which Zoroark needs assistance with) , does well against Hail Teams (which Zoroark does pretty well with) and I just don't like that its a very risky ploy to try and beat Tentacruel with your above plan. I also dislike (for personal reasons) running Zoroark and Infernape together when they are both so exceptionally frail.

iirc, every single Scarfer you mentioned also revenges Haxorus.

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I assumed that Haxorus outspeeds Rotom W after a DD boost buut from Honkos calc

Landorus (OU Choice Scarf) Earthquake 57.61 - 67.88% HP Ice 50.33 - 59.6%

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Thats what Landorus is doing to standard Haxorus. Infernape, obviously gets OHKOed. It also lets Haxorus survive the hit, and then get a second DD boost and then go on a sweeping rampage.

Terrakion (OU Choice Scarf) Close Combat 70.52 - 83.44% Stone Edge 58.94 - 69.53%

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Thats what Scarf Terrakion is doing to Haxorus, which lets you eat a hit, and either kill it, or go for a second boost and THEN kill it.

And lastly Rotom W's HP Ice on Haxorus:

Hidden Power Ice: 178-210 (58.94 - 69.53%), while Hydro Pump does Hydro Pump: 37.41 - 44.03%

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Salamence, ill grant you, although Sub DD Haxorus wins (and it has the moveslots spare to run Sub while Infernape needs pretty much every move) and its also a tremendous risk to switch in Salamence into a Haxorus (well, I know I would need some decent balls to pull that off) so I stand by my origional point, that Haxorus does handle the pokemon I listed much better than Infernape. Sure, you could add in Sandstorm to the Landorus calcs (still doesn't KO tho), or Rain, or Stealth Rock, but the point I was making is that as a pure sweeper, I would much rather use Haxorus since its a heck of a lot more threatening, has its counters taken out easier by Zoroark, and isn't as vulnerable to revenging as Infernape.

But while your point about ScarfTar was valid, your point about Gliscor is not. Skarmory can beat Rock Gem Terrakion if it fails to get an SD up. But Skarmory is not a Rock Gem Terrakion counter, because Terrakion will absolutely smash it after an SD. Almost no sweeper can bulldoze through a team without getting a boost. Don't pretend that this fact makes Infernape a poor choice.

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This part got lost in translation and for that, I apologise. My point (and incidentally my pet hate about Infernape), is that it is frail, like, really really frail. I have used it myself and I really struggled to get the boost up and then go on to sweep when stall has walls that, well, wall you, and Offensive teams have a scarfer that revenges you. I also found it tricky to set up (especially since fucking Ferrothorn run Thunder Wave and Forretress get Volt Switch) and I felt that I would be forced into 50-50s in order to set up (like trying to switch in on (like Tyranitar, Celebi (does it have EP?) Heatran (EP) etc), since if I predicted wrong I lose my Infernape and even if I predicted right id prolly get revenged anyway. So basically, I wasn't (or at least) didn't intend to call Gliscor a counter, I am merely suggesting that between Jellicent, Gliscor, and Scarf Tar, Delko has SD Infernape checked pretty well and I was disagreeing with the opinion that it "dominates" him.

I think I covered everything and hopefully explained my opinions well enough. I blame my shitty posting habits at 1 AM lol for this mini argument as this could have been avoided if I had worded things a little better, sorry for that man. I should note that I have no problems with Infernape as a whole, (well I still dislike it but I would overlook that) povided we shifted things around on the team. For example if Zoroark had Sucker Punch, or even Swords Dance and Sucker punch, I would be perfectly happy with it as a solid partner, since I feel that it would have a better chance at having its counters worn down by Zoroark, sadly, since we don't have Sucker Punch, I just think its hard for Infernape to set up and sweep and that Haxorus does a better job. In fact, if I wanted ANY fighting type, I would rather go with Virizion. Aside from the "Stealth Rock" problems it handles Rain extreamly well, SD loves Skarmory or Gliscor being weakened / taken out and CM likes Zoroark weakening SDef Jirachi (although at the top of my head im not 100% sure we 2KO between Protect + Wish + Leftovers so I won't make a judgement on that). Its not a full nomination since im still thinking about it but it seems to do pretty well against the 4 teams Pocket listed once Zoroark takes out its counters like Reuniclus

Slimman, while your explanation about Infernape and why you chose him is solid and with good points, i agree with Ginganinja. Infernape is so fucking frail and revenge killed by every scarfer in existence, and setting up is so damn difficult.

Also not sure where i saw this, but Quagisre is pretty well dealt by Zororark, so that our physical sweeper can easilly get past him. Quagsire loses 57.86 - 68.02% from a Dark Pulse and is forced to switch out, meaning that it cannot take any hit from Terrakion or Haxorus...

I have no clue how to make "cores" or how to beat them (since people bring up ladder position instead of raw points, I'll say that I've peaked at #918), so I'm going to graciously bow out of the rest of this discussion. A few parting shots, though:

If this team is Hyper Offense and our Zoroark is specially based, why are all of these initial partners physically oriented? Just a thought.

As for Rivalry shenanigans, it's just a matter of keeping up with the metagame. Changing Haxorus's gender to female also lets it always apply its Rivalry boost against enemy Cresselia, which has the best unboosted defense line in the game with 120/120/130 and Levitate to boot. Not sure how often you're going to face her, but I felt it was a better example than Eviolite Chansey. Since we've made up our minds that Rivalry has to be the ability, Bronzong suddenly becomes something to watch out for as well, as it laughs at our Hax and has the bulk to take any of zoroark's attacks.

If this team is Hyper Offense and our Zoroark is specially based, why are all of these initial partners physically oriented? Just a thought.

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This is actually fairly easy to explain. Zoroark is (hopefully) going to be used as a lure for physical walls that think that they are switching into Haxorus, but instead are switching into a specially based Zoroark which proceeds to nab the surprise KO thus removing a counter for Haxorus who can then sweep later in the game. Zoroark as a harder time against special walls (especially since ours lacks Nasty Plot) ergo luring Physical walls is its best shot.

As for Rivalry shenanigans, it's just a matter of keeping up with the metagame. Changing Haxorus's gender to female also lets it always apply its Rivalry boost against enemy Cresselia, which has the best unboosted defense line in the game with 120/120/130 and Levitate to boot. Not sure how often you're going to face her, but I felt it was a better example than Eviolite Chansey. Since we've made up our minds that Rivalry has to be the ability, Bronzong suddenly becomes something to watch out for as well, as it laughs at our Hax and has the bulk to take any of zoroark's attacks.

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Again, this isn't too much of a problem as Zoroark can cripple Cressilia with a surprise Dark Pulse thus weakening its chances of defeating Haxorus later in the game. Chansey doesn't really cause Haxorus much trouble since it can get a SD or two since Chansey can only threaten with Seismic Toss (especially if we run Lum haxorus). Bronzong hopefully gets lured in by Zoroark and we can KO with Flamethrower, simple.

ginganinja - In fact, if I wanted ANY fighting type, I would rather go with Virizion. Aside from the "Stealth Rock" problems it handles Rain extreamly well, SD loves Skarmory or Gliscor being weakened / taken out and CM likes Zoroark weakening SDef Jirachi (although at the top of my head im not 100% sure we 2KO between Protect + Wish + Leftovers so I won't make a judgement on that). Its not a full nomination since im still thinking about it but it seems to do pretty well against the 4 teams Pocket listed once Zoroark takes out its counters like Reuniclus

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Yea, I'm gonna nom Virizion. It can singlehandedly sweep M Dragon's Rain stall team after Dragonite loses its MultiScale

Although M Dragon's team is more susceptible to SD Virizion, I am nominating CM Virizion, because SD Virizion requires overall more support before it can sweep. For instance, SD Virizion needs Gliscor and Skarmory taken out in Delko's Sand Stall team before it can do anything productive, whereas CM Virizion can pretty much begin sweeping once Skarmory's Sturdy is broken. ITSU's sand team is a bit more difficult, since it has CM Latias and Reuniclus (and Skarmory), so at least CM Virizion has one less threat to worry about.

Against Delko's Christmas team Virizion may be better off with SD, thanks to Close Combat's perfect accuracy, but otherwise they work equally well once Reuniclus is removed. Other than Expert Physic's own Virizion, there is nothing in his balanced team that can take two hits from CM Virizion.


Virizion @ Black Belt / Leftovers / Lum Berry
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Giga Drain
- Focus Blast
- Calm Mind
- Hidden Power Ice

Just a note Pocket I like to run Lum on a set-up Virizion because I am always switching it in on Scalds so it sucks to get burned, even if it is a CM version. I also think that it's really a shame that we have to run Rivalry which makes Zong that much more of a problem, but most people don't care about the genders (I know I don't) so it shouldn't be that much of an issue when laddering.

Like I said before, choosing a Pokemon specifically for Illusion as your 2nd Pokemon is a very bad first mistake, especially with Substitute, as Zoroark loses HP when he tries to scout.

1st nomination is Offensive DD Dragonite.

Dragonite @ Life Orb / Lum Berry
Trait: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake / Fire Punch
- ExtremeSpeed / Fire Punch

Dragonite offers the best of all 4 worlds. He's great on Hyper Offense, he covers all of Zoroark's weakness, hits on the opposite side of the spectrum as Zoroark, and, as a bonus, Dragonite often run Substitute (since a lot of you are so fixated on that one aspect), which makes him one of the best partners for Zoroark. Zoroark doesn't need to cover any of Dragonite's weaknesses since Zoroark isn't going to take more than a hit or 2 anyway.

Life Orb is chosen because Leftovers is less than optimal on a Dragonite without Roost and just cripples it's offensive potential for and the chance of maybe getting an extra turn of Multiscale if SR is down & it doesn't switch into an attack. Lum Berry is left as an option because Scald is the stupidest thing in the game. Oh and I guess Fire moves like Will-O-Wisp can burn sometimes too, but Water-type moves burn more right?

The moves are pretty standard. EQ, FP, & ES are pretty much interchangeable. Fire Punch is secondary at this point in team building since Zoroark already has Flamethrower. The set can be changed once we get more teammates and see what we're working with.


2nd nomination (separate from Dragonite) is Offensive DD Gyarados.

Gyarados @ Life Orb
Trait: Intimidate / Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge / Double Edge
- Earthquake


Before I say anything:
252 +1 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Double-Edge vs 128 HP /0 Def Rotom-W: 94.14% - 110.62% [62.5% chance to OHKO]
252 +1 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Double-Edge vs 4 HP/0 Def Hydreigon: 91.1% - 107.06% [43.75% chance to OHKO]
252 +1 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Double-Edge vs 4 HP/0 Def Politoed: 107.14% - 126.09% [100% chance to OHKO]
There's a method to this Double Edge madness.

With that out of the way, Gyarados is here for that same reason as Dragonite, he covers Zoroark's weaknesses, he's great on offense, hits on the opposite side of the spectrum as Zoroark, & he's known for using Substitute.

Intimidate is the better ability overall, especially as Gyarados is going to switch into those Fighting- & Bug-type moves that threaten Zoroark. In short, Intimidate nets you more turns to Dragon Dance, making sweeps easier, while Moxie rewards you as soon as you start a sweep.

Don't just give up Intimidate just because of Zoroark. You hurt Gyarados in the long run as a switch-in for Zoroark's threats. If you feel Moxie is better for Gyarados himself, go for it, but don't do it for Zoroark, and especially not this early in team building.

The moveset is standard Gyarados. Give Double Edge a shot if it sounds appealing to you.


3rd nomination (should Pocket allow 3 (separate from the others again)) is SD Landorus.

Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Sand Force
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Substitute


I'm nominating this Landorus because; say it with me everyone: "He's great on Hyper Offense, he covers all of Zoroark's weakness, hits on the opposite side of the spectrum as Zoroark, and, as a bonus, is known to run Substitute."

EdgeQuake coverage with HP Ice to hit Gliscor. Sub is to cover himself and scout. Swords Dance & high speed is great but, Landorus doesn't have the very useful Fire & Water resistances that Dragonite & Gyarados have, so there's a bit of a trade-off between all 3, which is why I felt it necessary to nominate all 3 even though their jobs are nearly identical on the surface.

Uh oh, when this team gets out I sense a lot of people running female Pokemon.

Haxorus (M) @ Lum Berry
Trait: Rivalry
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Substitute/ Brick Break? SD?
I think Lum Berry is the best item, I find LO is not needed with Hax's power. OK, so Lum Berry and Substitute work well. You can switch in on a Will-O-Wisp and Sub up blocking it. They won't expect it. EVs are the standard. Adamant nature for the most attack. DD is obvious because you get Speed in Power in one move. Outrage and EQ are really all the coverage it needs. I mean I guess you could run Brick Break for Ferrothorn but it isn't needed. You could run Substitute or even Taunt (though you have Lum) I actually think this is better than a Fighting-Type because of the Stealth Rock damage. Now, Zoroark and Haxorus are no defensive core so we would have a team to support that. I guess Dragonite would be a better Poke but the Stealth Rock damage is too visible. We probably would run a rapid spinner anyway because of the whole Illusion thing, but whatever. I think that it will be much easier after we choose the first couple Pokemon and build around it.


Toxicroak (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Cross Chop
- Sucker Punch
- Ice Punch
If we do decide to use that Tornadus Rain Dance set, this would be a good fit. Swords Dance is a great move though most likely ruining the Illusion once set up can be deadly. I heard people saying that Rain would be a good weather for Zoroark to function in, to get rid of the sand damage. Well this can be used as a counter or Pokemon to use against rain team. Cross Chop is the obvious STAB move of choice over Drain Punch as this is an offensive set and sadly Croak does not get Close Combat so you're going to have to deal with the accuracy issues. Sucker Punch is another move Zoroark could have, so that could keep the illusion. Ice Punch is pretty much for Coverage/gliscor because Croak doesn't have many other options. I think this set is better than the Bulk Up set for this team because Bulk Up requires time to set up and they will have already figured out that it isn't a Zoroark.

to be clear Katakiri are you suggesting that we have all three, or one of those three. You might have said it somewhere and im not quite sure and I might have missed it so my apologies if that's the case.

RE: You nominations, I kinda like Landorus the best, since Skarmory is ALWAYS switching into it and Zoroark can take that out (provided sandstorm is not up since then its obvious whats up). SD Landorus is underrated and I feel a set like Sub / SD / Stone Edge / Earthquake (since iirc you 2KO Gliscor with Stone Edge anyway after a SD and the sub lets you lure in and eliminate anything faster that might threaten Zoroark) would work really well with Zoroark.

I feel like id like Gyarados a little more if it had Taunt since it could do better against the teams that Pocket listed, although I suppose that Zoroark can lure in and KO Skarmory and Jellicent.

The only problems I have with both Dragonite (and to a lesser extent Gyarados) is that they are both weak to Stealth Rock. I am not suggesting for one second that he do not allow any SR weak pokemon into this team, however, since in your post you do mention things like "Dragonite often run Substitute (since a lot of you are so fixated on that one aspect), which makes him one of the best partners for Zoroark.". Being weak to Stealth Rock makes it damn hard for Zoroark to take out a counter and at that stage I would rather use a different sweeper which CAN work better with Zoroark, perhapes getting rid of a counter or two. In addition, I dislike Dragonite and Gyarados switching into fighting attacks directed at Zoroark. From experience, SR + taking a CC from Terrakion can shave off a third of your health in one blow, which is IMO too much for a sweeper to take hence my preference to Landorus.

I still do think Haxorus is the best possible partner to Zoroark, with Virizion and Landorus following up (I also think that Rain Dance Starmie would be SO COOL but prolly not as a first teammate).

Heatran works well as a partner, giving zoroark a chance to set-up a sub when the opponent switches out from thier skarmory/scizor/forretress/ferrothorn/ ect. Most common switches into heatran are terrakion, jellicent, landorus, ect. Zoroark can take care of those threats pretty easily. I was testing it out earlier, but with a different zoroark set, one with a balloon, to make the bluff so much more believable. It seemed to work out great, and I would take out at least 1 pokemon 90% of the time.

Alright, I like Landorus very much as well -- the Flying-type might be turning some of you off because of the clear immunity to Spikes, but let's keep in mind that this is Hyper Offense so we should be preventing people from setting up in the first place.

Still, let's keep looking for more options here, so while I think Haxorus then Landorus are the two best partners, I'm also nominating Dragon Dance Scrafty.


Scrafty (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Drain Punch / Hi Jump Kick
- Ice Punch

Like Landorus, Scrafty lures in Skarmory, Jellicent, Scizor, and a lot of Scarfers such as Terrakion that a Zoroark with a Substitute up can easily destroy. While Scrafty is obviously not known to use Substitute a lot, I don't really think that is all that important -- the point is to weaken Scrafty's potential counters/checks to allow it to clean up later. Besides, if a Scarfed Terrakion switches in as Zoroark Substitutes, what's it supposed to do -- switch out? It's just taking more hazards damage later and letting something else on the team get weakened. If he's switching to Jirachi that's another plus as weakening Jirachi will pave the way for Scrafty.

tl;dr Zoroark seems to be very good at luring in Scrafty checks. Also, Scrafty lures in a lot of status, which Zoroark can take advantage of to throw up a Substitute.

ginganinja said:

to be clear Katakiri are you suggesting that we have all three, or one of those three. You might have said it somewhere and im not quite sure and I might have missed it so my apologies if that's the case.

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They're all separate nominations. I mentioned it above their sets.

Woodchuck: I'm not sure how well Scrafty might pair with Zoroark, but for such a weak pokemon your list of common switch-ins is totally ridiculous. I'm sorry, but you don't switch Jellicent, Scizor, or Scarf Terrakion directly into Scrafty. Those pokemon basically just lose. Also, if Zoroark subs, this is a total giveaway, since I don't think I've ever seen a Substitute Scrafty ever (I've seen sub on nearly everything else). And it's resistant to SR. So all in all I'm really not convinced.

Katakiri said:

Like I said before, choosing a Pokemon specifically for Illusion as your 2nd Pokemon is a very bad first mistake, especially with Substitute, as Zoroark loses HP when he tries to scout.

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I'm sorry but this is just silly. If you don't want Zoroark to successfully disguise itself as stuff, you shouldn't be using it. And why not have the best partners for illusion? It's hardly as if we're suggesting terrible gimmick pokemon which only work with Illusion. These are perfectly viable stand-alone sets. Anyway, it's worth remembering that merely having Sub on the set does not force you to use it; if you can reasonable keep everything at 100% then I would very much urge you not to use it, but usually you can't. The moment that hazards are set up, and Zoroark takes a little damage coming in, or Zoroark fires of a LO attack, the illusion game is up. Take advantage of it while you can. Don't just scout. Kill stuff.

Also, Katakiri, "covers Zoroark's weaknesses" is not really a phrase I wan't to be seeing. Zoroark is so frail that the opponent does not really need to exploit its weaknesses to kill it. Defensively, all you should consider is whether the partner draws in Dark, Ghost, and especially Psychic-type moves, since these might actually give Zoroark a free turn. So basically, I'd consider Zoroark to be a defensive irrelevance. Offensive synergy is what we should be looking for first; we can deal with defenses later.

Toxicroak: I can see this being a good partner for Zoroark as far as counters are concerned, but the main problem is that Toxicroak is pretty bad outside of rain, and that when rain is up, it's a dead giveaway. SR is a giveaway too. So yeah, the illusion could be effective, but would require some serious maintaining.

Agreeing wholeheartedly with both of jc's main points.

Also ginga your avvy is officially the hottest picture I have ever seen.