Tangrowth (OU Tank Revamp) [GP 2/2]

ginganinja said:

Just pointing out that SD Terrakion is used around 27% of the time which means that roughly one quarter of all Terrakion you face can Swords Dance, fucking that Tangrowth set over and really putting the pressure on. Does anyone else think 27% is rare?

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Ok not rare, but a bit uncommon. And i would rather lose to a +2 SD Lucario, which is used in 5.42% of OU teams, and to a SD Terrakion which is used in 4% of OU teams(and these 2 numbers added result to 9.42% of OU teams), than lose to CB Zor which is used in 16.53% of all teams. (completely disregarding the fact that speedy Tangrowth can outspeed and deal around 60% damage with Power Whip to standard Ttar)

LizardMan said:

First off, if you want a defensive grass type who can outrun and hit Scizor with HP Fire, while check Rotom-w with grass typing - meet Celebi.

Tangrowth requires much more energy to speed creep since its slower. If Tangrowth uses 136 EVs, and still happens to get outran due to the opponent creeping - you just wasted 136 EVs. If my 16Spe Scizor gets outran by a 20 speed Scizor, I only waste 16 EVs.

There has to be a line drawn somewhere for the analysis onsite, but that doesn't mean people will magically stop speed creeping if their team requires it.

I don't care if you have a water type. If I have Stealth Rock up, LO Terrakion will beat your Tangrowth and your water type since you only run 120 Def EVs.

You need to switch more with the fast Tangrowth spread. That is like pressing Recover more often with a Gastrodon because you have a burn. Its a liability.

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First of all most Volt-turn teams also carry Landorus, so Celebi is a easily forced out, while Tangrowth doesn't give a shit.

Also you are confusing 2 words, outspeeding and speed creeping.
Putting enough speed on a poke to outspeed threats that don't run a particular ev spread, which means 0 speed pokes, max speed pokes, and pokes such as Scizor that always use 8 Spe not to outspeed anything, but because it is the best place to put them, is considered to be outspeeding.

Putting on a poke enough speed to outspeed threats that do run a particular ev spread, is considered as speed creeping, and this is why you don't see pokes trying to outrun BU Breloom or 44 Spe Jellicent in the analyses.

So the right way to put it is that Tangrowth needs 136 Spe evs to OUTSPEED CB Zor, while CB Zor needs 8, 12 or 16 evs to SPEED CREEP whatever he wants.

Anyway this discussion ends here. We both addressed our points, and we are in a point were we just disagree with each other and this can't change.

It's ok for Tangrowth to 'lose' to CB Scizor since it technically doesn't lose; all Scizor can do is U-turn for just a little over half its HP while Tangrowth Leech Seeds some of that health back or puts its dumbass to sleep for trying to set up a Swords Dance. Also, since HP Ice is the main option for dealing with Dragons, you can't do anything with that extra speed most of the time anyway. AC is more than serviceable for a faster Growth spread and all of its limited utility.

Speaking of Leech Seed, the move deserves a higher priority bracket in the fourth slot for making it more effective in dealing with Conkeldurr and discouraging some of its enemies from staying in and setting up while it gives the switch-in (or Tangrowth) free healing.

One other thing I'm surprised people aren't picking up on: Giga Drain needs to be main option in the first slot. Between Rotom-W's Will-o-Wisp and Scald from everything else, Grass-types are extremely vulnerable to burns this gen and having his main STAB neutered on what should normally be a safe switch is completely undesirable. Yes, we know Tangrowth's bad special defense and low speed limits its switch-ins on Water-types, but even with its big bag of weaknesses, the inability to switch in on something as harmless as Gastrodon's Scald without incurring severe risk frankly makes it nigh worthless. Mention in AC that Power Whip is best with Speed EVs for nailing standard Tyranitar.

And both your views will be considered in the analysis. I'll list the advantages and disadvantages of both in a paragraph, so that people can chose for themselves.

NOW. Can we focus on the slashes? That's the bit that's proving difficult. So far I've only gotten one opinion from Articblast, who recommended Leech Seed and Knock Off being in the last slot based on the reasoning that those moves have lower distribution and EQ has limited application.

However, I would like to point out that just because a move has worse distribution doesn't necessarily make it superior. Not saying that's the case in this instance, but we shouldn't make out decision solely on distribution.

Also, Earthquake also has an additional niche in that it can turn Tangrowth into a very effective lure for Heatran and even Magnezone (who doesn't take much even from HP fire and loves exploiting Tangrowth's low Sp.Def), should your team need that.

I can also say from experience that Knock Off actually doesn't affect most Heatran or Tentacruel that much, as knocking off their Leftovers/Black Sludge is a small gain when they're either immune to damaging status (heatran) or have Rain Dish (Tentacruel). They don't LIKE it exactly, but it's a lot less damaging than an Earthquake would be. I should also point out that physically defensive Tentacruel isn't 2HKO'd by Tangrowth's uninvested EQ, so maybe it's not the best example. Magnezone is a much better example of something that likes switching in on Tangrowth that is totally screwed over by EQ.

Even though I never used Leech Seed when I used my Tangrowth, I can certainly see it being useful, especially on the speedy set. Why? Because that extra bit of healing could really help keep the speedy set healthier, which is very important. Usually if you're using the slow set it doesn't actually help Tangrowth itself very much, since most Pokemon that it might actually help Tangrowth beat run a faster substitute, and all the others are OHKO'd/massively damaged by Tangrowth's other moves. Leech seed won't be helping Tangrowth itself beat Lati@s, Magnezone, Reuniclus, Tentracruel or Heatran but it might well help its teammates do it (except Reuniclus, obviously.) Knock off is much the same way though, but its effects can't be switched out of.

Anyway, I'll edit the OP to reflect a few of the things I'm saying here, but I'm not going to change the slashes yet; I want to hear more opinions first.

yo

"-Gives Volt-Turn trouble due to its physical bulk easily handling U-Turns and its resistance to Rotom-W's main attacks."

No. Tangrowth has a pretty bad special defense and you forgot something really important : will o wisp. Rotom-w can wow it and use volturn / hpump. Hpump does hmm 35-40% ? With the burn + sr, tangrowth is absolutely not able to handle rotom-w and it doesnt give volturn trouble. Maybe you should add hp ices damage from landorus ebelt, it could give you an idea about how tangrowth sucks in special defense. About the special defense, maybe you could give a few evs in it to help dealing with rotom/landorus.
I didnt read the whole analysis, but maybe you could talk about politoed as a good teammate + gliscor which helps against scizor / heatran (the stall one).

Ojama said:

yo

"-Gives Volt-Turn trouble due to its physical bulk easily handling U-Turns and its resistance to Rotom-W's main attacks."

No. Tangrowth has a pretty bad special defense and you forgot something really important : will o wisp. Rotom-w can wow it and use volturn / hpump. Hpump does hmm 35-40% ? With the burn + sr, tangrowth is absolutely not able to handle rotom-w and it doesnt give volturn trouble. Maybe you should add hp ices damage from landorus ebelt, it could give you an idea about how tangrowth sucks in special defense. About the special defense, maybe you could give a few evs in it to help dealing with rotom/landorus.
I didnt read the whole analysis, but maybe you could talk about politoed as a good teammate + gliscor which helps against scizor / heatran (the stall one).

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*rolls eyes* You're telling this to a guy that ran this thing to specifically beat Volt-Turn and got to the top of the ladder doing it. Sorry, but my experience speaks more than your theorymonning. The way it stays Anti-Volt turn is by breaking the chain. It stays in for ONE attack, then somehow cripples or flat out KOs whatever comes in. The only thing it CAN'T do this to is Celebi (thanks to high defenses, key resistances and Natural Cure), and even that can lose momentum when it gets put to sleep. It's not designed to stay in against Volt-Turn all day; it stays in for one attack and takes out a key link in the chain, then switches out, with Regenerator avoiding the wearing down factor as well. THAT is how it does it. It isn't a hard counter to it (I never said it was in this topic), but it does mess them up enough for you to take the advantage. I'm sorry I didn't convey this properly in the OP, but it's hard to fit all this in a bullet point.

As for Leech Seed, I'm not totally convinced it's so useful. It certainly has its perks, but most opponents can't set up on Tangrowth safely thanks to the fact it hits fucking hard for a defensive Pokemon. Sure the extra healing IS nice, but permanently crippling your opponent is frequently more useful. Leech seed might work better if you're using a more aggressive team than mine though, where the short term IS the long term, so to speak.

Giga Drain definitely has an advantage over Power Whip in that it's not affected by burn (and when I was using it, Tangrowth did get burned a lot). However, it's a big trade off, as you are losing out on a LOT of power and that translates to missing a LOT of KOs. That's why I have them both there; really they're about equal in usefulness.

And what about my 'experience' with volturns ? I got first with a volturn and i can tell you that tangrowth doesnt give trouble to volturn teams, look its pretty easy to get it. Ebelt lando destroys tang with sr + hp ice, even tho you have regenerator, you couldnt take another hp ice. Rotom burns tang and then its easier to kill it. Hpump is also a 2hko with sr + burns. Scizor destroys tang. You're saying tang only takes one attack and then switches with regenerator. But then the rest of your team is destroyed. Its actually the goal of a volturn. Pressure on the opponent with sr + voltswitch + uturn + a counter.

Leech Seed isn't used so much as panic button for setup as it is used to aid Tangrowth's healing capabilities, since he's limited to just that and Regenerator for recovery. It also helps his allies pivot in a lot easier, and keeps your opponent from using Substitute on the things that manage to force him out and get one up (such as Latias). Chansey and Blissey are also common switch-ins to Tangrowth and with Leech Seed in tow, he's looking to get back a lot of HP (which he'll need after taking a +2 CC from Terrakion or Lucario).

Another thing I want to remind you is that Leech Seed is currently standard on OU Tangrowth and was used on 50% of all Tangrowth last month (where the others were either running Chlorophyll or gimmicks like Stun Spore). It's pretty clear that most ladder players agree Tangrowth should be running Leech Seed. Don't forget what I said about Conkeldurr either, since he can just keep setting up on you otherwise.

SJCrew said:

Leech Seed isn't used so much as panic button for setup as it is used to aid Tangrowth's healing capabilities, since he's limited to just that and Regenerator for recovery. It also helps his allies pivot in a lot easier, and keeps your opponent from using Substitute on the things that manage to force him out and get one up (such as Latias). Chansey and Blissey are also common switch-ins to Tangrowth and with Leech Seed in tow, he's looking to get back a lot of HP (which he'll need after taking a +2 CC from Terrakion or Lucario).

Another thing I want to remind you is that Leech Seed is currently standard on OU Tangrowth and was used on 50% of all Tangrowth last month (where the others were either running Chlorophyll or gimmicks like Stun Spore). It's pretty clear that most ladder players agree Tangrowth should be running Leech Seed. Don't forget what I said about Conkeldurr either, since he can just keep setting up on you otherwise.

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Well just because a lot of people used it doesn't make it good on its own, especially with something as poorly known by most as Tangrowth, but I see your point. That extra healing can turn the 33% from switching out to around the same as actually using Recover or something, which is pretty damn awesome with something as ridiculously physically bulky as Tangrowth. Of course you pretty much have to use it on the switch as ANYTHING with a substitute will block it. Still, it's got some nice benefits.

I'll probably keep it as a main slash then. I can say from experience that Stun Spore's less-than-perfect accuracy can be really painful at times, and generally you're just better off running thunder wave on something else. It can be really helpful for things like Landorus though, and at least it's not like toxic where 90% of the things that switch into you are immune to it anyway. Worth an AC mention at least. Earthquake certainly gets a an AC mention too as the ability to lure Heatran and Magnezone can be absolutely awesome for some teams, but against most enemies (and anyone who actualy knows tangrowth) it's a waste of a moveslot, as Power Whip hits almost everything else harder that you actually have a chance of harming anyway.

I still want some more opinions before I finalize this though, so keep it coming!

I think that Knock Off and Leech Seed should be the 2 slashes on the last slot. They are great disrupting moves and they work excellently with Tangrowth's nature, which is take a hit and run, while also working against any strategy.

Stun Spore is good, but the accuracy, the fact that you are running another status move, the fact that it is almost useless against stall, and lastly the fact that many common Tangrowth switch-ins such as Ferrothorn and Celebi don't give a fuck about Stun Spore, means that it is AC material.

EQ is in the same boat, as it has its uses, but Leech Seed and Knock Off are better all around moves.

So i think that if you remove EQ and Stun Spore from the last slot, the set should be ready!

Knock Off is probably the move I'd doubt the most. It's slightly annoying for Pokemon who really need their item, but it doesn't achieve consistent and quantifiable results the way Leech Seed does, since it's effectively useless after the first attack and doesn't help Tangrowth survive or beat its enemies.

SJCrew said:

Knock Off is probably the move I'd doubt the most. It's slightly annoying for Pokemon who really need their item, but it doesn't achieve consistent and quantifiable results the way Leech Seed does, since it's effectively useless after the first attack and doesn't help Tangrowth survive or beat its enemies.

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Well for some pokemon it's more than "slightly annoying". Anything using a choice item or evoilite for example. It's can actually be more useful for stall teams than leech seed because it lets their walls take hits better when the offensive items get removed and when leftovers gets removed it helps them wear down the opponents since they have no passive recovery, and unlike Leech Seed the affect is permanent, which is important for the long matches stall teams often have.

And then there's the real big reason to use Knock Off; scouting. There's no better way to scout out what set a Pokemon is using than to reveal its item, and Knock Off does that every time. It makes deciding what you can switch out to a lot easier. Really, that's the main reason to use it even more than the crippling effect, because it means you can take less risk with your predictions, and we all know accurate predictions can make or break a game in a heartbeat.

I can understand you're doubt seeing as Knock Off isn't a common move and is frequently seen as gimmicky, but it's a perfect fit on Tangrowth and really, really helps it to do its job. Not to mention how satisfying it is to knock the toxic orb off a poison heal user before it activates :P.

Exactly what Jimera said. Knock Off is the ultimate scouting move.

Also with the prevalence of Sandstorm almost every poke with an acceptable bulk that uses Lefties and isnt immune to ss is going to be hurt rly badly from the removal of his item.

Some examples are Celebi, Dragonite, Lati@s, Sub Hydreigon, Ninetales and Volcarona, which all hate having their Lefties removed and they are all common Tangrowth switch-ins. Also notice that Stun Spore's paralyze can be cured via Heal Bell or Refresh, while some of those pokes don't care about it so much, unlike with Knock Off. Removing the Toxic Orb from those pesky BU Breloom that love switching into Tangrowth is also funny as hell! Removing Life Obs or Choice items makes offensive poke much easier to handle. Generally with Sleep Powder and Knock Off, Tangrowth can put out of the match one poke, and seriously disrupt another, while still being ready to wall many physical attackers! With those 2 moves Tangrowth will never be dead weight even if there isn't anything it can wall since all it needs is one turn to put something to sleep and then he will cripple another one with Knock Off.

Heal Bell and Refresh aren't the most commonly used moves.

One of the main things to be concerned about with Knock Off is your opponent playing around it. Once you remove their item, they could just keep on switching the same pokemon in.

Leech Seed is consistently useful unless they switch in a grass type.

Jimera0 said:

Well for some pokemon it's more than "slightly annoying". Anything using a choice item or evoilite for example. It's can actually be more useful for stall teams than leech seed because it lets their walls take hits better when the offensive items get removed and when leftovers gets removed it helps them wear down the opponents since they have no passive recovery, and unlike Leech Seed the affect is permanent, which is important for the long matches stall teams often have.

And then there's the real big reason to use Knock Off; scouting. There's no better way to scout out what set a Pokemon is using than to reveal its item, and Knock Off does that every time. It makes deciding what you can switch out to a lot easier. Really, that's the main reason to use it even more than the crippling effect, because it means you can take less risk with your predictions, and we all know accurate predictions can make or break a game in a heartbeat.

I can understand you're doubt seeing as Knock Off isn't a common move and is frequently seen as gimmicky, but it's a perfect fit on Tangrowth and really, really helps it to do its job. Not to mention how satisfying it is to knock the toxic orb off a poison heal user before it activates :P.

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On the flip side, especially for a stall team, removing a Choice Scarf can actually be a bad thing because the extra speed was useless against you and now they can freely switch moves. In some circumstances, the recoil from Life Orb can also make it easier to wear down an annoying pokemon, although in some cases it can indeed make it easier to play around. As was said earlier, Leech Seed is consistently more useful. Leftovers won't like having its Leftovers knocked off, no, but Leech Seed is going to make them lose the same net amount and heal Tangrowth/your switch-in as well as long as they stay in. Again, this isn't to say Knock Off is BAD.

LizardMan said:

Heal Bell and Refresh aren't the most commonly used moves.

One of the main things to be concerned about with Knock Off is your opponent playing around it. Once you remove their item, they could just keep on switching the same pokemon in.

Leech Seed is consistently useful unless they switch in a grass type.

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Ah, but if they start doing that it makes them really predictable, making double switching really damn easy. I know, I've encountered such an idea before... and then burned them for it. As far as downsides go, it's a rather nice one seeing as you can exploit it.

ElCee said:

On the flip side, especially for a stall team, removing a Choice Scarf can actually be a bad thing because the extra speed was useless against you and now they can freely switch moves. In some circumstances, the recoil from Life Orb can also make it easier to wear down an annoying pokemon, although in some cases it can indeed make it easier to play around. As was said earlier, Leech Seed is consistently more useful. Leftovers won't like having its Leftovers knocked off, no, but Leech Seed is going to make them lose the same net amount and heal Tangrowth/your switch-in as well as long as they stay in. Again, this isn't to say Knock Off is BAD.

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Well thing is a lot of time people WILL switch in a grass type, expecting the leech seed... and just like Knock Off, they'll keep on doing it if you rely on it a lot. Again, can be exploited... but only so much.

As for some items being better to keep on, I'm not sure I agree with that. It really depends on your team again. However, I will say that for Stall teams usually not having to take 30% more damage is more beneficial than the opponent losing 10% health each attack. As for choice scarf... usually knowing that your opponent WAS scarfed is so valuable in itself that you don't give a fuck that it can switch moves. Knowing whether something is scarfed or not is frequently came changing.

As with Giga Drain and Power Whip it's really looking like the two are even in a lot of ways. Depends on what your team needs as usual I think.

Alright, I've decided on the slashes for the 4th slot, which will be Leech Seed / Knock Off. Leech Seed is probably more useful for most teams, but Knock Off is too notable and potentially devastating to not be slashed (god it's helped me so many times against Lando, as knowing what item that bastard has lets you know how you can beat him). After I make the edit I'll be declaring this ready for Q/C!

Could your ego be any more bloated over pocket monsters.. Lolz.

I think EQ deserves a slash, it can beat SubCM Rachi unless uber hax and lures in Heatran like no tomorrow

I'm just a passerby, but I just can't figure out how Tangrowth is such an effective demolisher of volt-turn.

Leftovers Rotom-W Hydropump: 39.36 - 46.53%

That's a guarenteed 2HKO with SR and 1 Layer of Spikes (assuming sand storm, since all volt turn is sandstorm).

Rotom also outspeeds and can will-o-wisp Tangrowth - after a will-o-wisp, tangrowth is still guarenteed the 2HKO but can only muster 45.05 - 53.85% in return to Rotom. If you hydro pump on the switch, will-o-wisp, then hydro pump again, you're handily KOed.

Volt Switch also does 23.02 - 27.23% which isn't insignificant, although Regenerator does completely mitigate that. However, after Scizor switches in, it does 57.92 - 68.32% with Standard CB U-Turn.

Leftovers Rotom Volt Switch + CB Scizor U-Turn will almost always kill that Tangrowth with SR, and both outspeed it. Assuming a min damage roll each time, we get 23.02 + 57.92 = 80.94 + 12.5 (SR) = 93.44 + 6.25 (Sand Storm hits before Leftovers) = 99.69%.

The ONLY way Tangrowth can survive that Combo (the most standard combination on volt-turn teams) is if there is either A) No Stealth Rock or B) No Sand Storm which isn't really that easy to assume considering they are in every god damn volt turn team. And even if it does survive, it switches out and is at barely above 33%, which means it can't take ANY other hit.

I hate volt turn, a lot, but I just don't see how Tangrowth is stopping it. Hell, even expert belt Landorus does 15.59 - 18.32% with EQ (lol this is great) but follows up with 59.9 - 70.54% with HP Ice, a guarenteed 2HKO with SR/1 Layer of Spikes. Or, if not that, it can just continue the chain and U-Turn for 26.73 - 31.93%, putting you in the range to get destroyed by Scizor's u-turn.


So let's look at the standard whore core Voltturn Team.

Tyranitar - You can beat this guy pretty easily, though the standard "Mixed Attacker" set from the analysis outspeeds and does 75.74 - 89.6% with Fire Blast. Leaves you pretty crippled and can easily KO with hazards.

Rotom-W - If you switch into a hydro pump with hazards, you get 2HKOed. You also get beaten if they opt to Will-o-Wisp, and if they volt switch out, it sets you up to get dropped by Scizor.

Scizor - None of the main slash moves can touch him. CB Scizor does a shit ton despite the massive bulk, and can KO with minimal hazards + previous volt switch/uturn damage from landorus or rotom-w.

Celebi - Nope. Can't touch this.

Landorus - Can check somewhat effectively, though e-belt HP Ice does a LOT, and u-turn sets you up for scizor's KO again.


Is it really that effective of a stop to volt turn? :\

@ I Am.

A few things.
1. I said it gives Volt-Turn trouble, not that it somehow full counters it on its own. It needs some support to do it, but usually that just needs to be in the form of hazard control (good to have anyway) and teammates that can take advantages of the holes Tangrowth can punch in Volt-Turn teams.

2. A lot of your calculations for "2HKO's" and "OHKOs" are assuming multiple layers of hazards. If you're letting a volt-turn team get multiple layers of hazards up against you, that's your own damn fault, not Tangrowth's.

3. It's not going to be taking more than one hit per a time against those Pokemon. What allows Tangrowth to give Volt-Turn trouble is its ability to either OHKO and remove key members of the chain with Power-Whip or cripple them with Sleep Powder, then switch out and regain most of the health it lost to regenerator. It doesn't matter worth a damn if Rotom-W 2HKO's you when you OHKO it back. If it decides to burn you, it then requires 3 turns to kill you and you STILL beat it. And if you're using Giga Drain, well, it's just plain fucked. Scizor can U-Turn out, but if you're using the fast spread and HP Fire it loses 3/4 of its health doing it, meaning it won't be lasting much longer. If you're not, whatever it's switching in next gets crippled, either put to sleep or OHKO'd by Power Whip/Giga Drain/ HP whatever. Then you switch out, and regain most of your HP.

You don't generally switch Tangrowth INTO an attack from a volt-turn member unless you know it's going to use a move you can handle. Rather, you get it in through careful play or a Volt-Turn of your own, then you use its ability to stay in and hit back to cripple.

It IS true that Celebi gives it boatloads of trouble. I have it mentioned as a counter for a reason. Worst it can do it sleep it allowing a free switch in for something else or knock off its item. While it won't like either option, neither is really going to stop it. Like I said, it isn't going to stop Volt-Turn on its own, but it CAN help, especially against the standard Rotom-W/Scizor core.

Next time, before arguing against a point someone made... make sure they actually MADE that point first? Because I didn't call Tangrowth a "stop" to Volt-Turn. It's merely an obstacle, and Volt-Turn without Celebi really doesn't like it. It's just something that can help break the chain and get you some momentum back, which can be vital to beating Volt-Turn.

Princess Bri said:

Could your ego be any more bloated over pocket monsters.. Lolz.

I think EQ deserves a slash, it can beat SubCM Rachi unless uber hax and lures in Heatran like no tomorrow

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It doesn't really beat subCM Jirachi. Jirachi can simply Thunder you as you come in, paralyze you and then switch out. Next time it comes in Jirachi uses WP, and if you get confused, Jirachi proceeds to set-up while you only have a ~38% chance of attacking, and even if you do attack, Tangrowth does 36.13 - 42.57% with EQ, while +1 Thunder does 27.47 - 32.42%. So most of times or at least half of the times Jirachi wins, so it is hardly a solution.

Also hitting something on the switch, is almost never a reason to give a move on a DEFENSIVE poke. You should put moves that help you beat the stuff you can at least take a hit from. EQ is good for AC, but nothing more, imo.

I think Leaf Storm deserves an AC mention for a strong STAB move unaffected by a burn.

Please offer teammates useful for dealing with Tentacruel, Heatran, and Celebi - non-choiced variants of Latias, Latios, and Hydreigon are all good options, imo.

Also mention teammates to cover up depending on the holes opened by Tangrowth's Hidden Power. HP Ice Tangrowth may appreciate Heatran to deal with Steel-types, and HP Fire Tangrowth Scizor, Mamoswine, or Scarf Moxie Mence to shoot down Dragons from the air.

Pocket said:

I think Leaf Storm deserves an AC mention for a strong STAB move unaffected by a burn.

Please offer teammates useful for dealing with Tentacruel, Heatran, and Celebi - non-choiced variants of Latias, Latios, and Hydreigon are all good options, imo.

Also mention teammates to cover up depending on the holes opened by Tangrowth's Hidden Power. HP Ice Tangrowth may appreciate Heatran to deal with Steel-types, and HP Fire Tangrowth Scizor, Mamoswine, or Scarf Moxie Mence to shoot down Dragons from the air.

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Leaf Storm! Why didn't I think of that? I'm kind of tempted to actually make it a main slash, given the hit and run nature of Tangrowth. Anyone else think it'd be good? And if so, should we go for the messy tripple slash or remove either Power Whip or Giga Drain?

I was looking for some help with teammates and those are pretty good suggestions, though I fail to see how Hydreigon is reliably dealing with specially defensive Tentacruel honestly. As for the counters for the various HPs, added some in, with Heatran getting a special mention as it has pretty good synergy with Tangrowth defensively too.

And thanks for finding the time Pocket, I know you're busy so I really appreciate the help!

no problem, Jimera0. Remove Starmie as a teammate to beat Dragonite, though. Scizor or Scarf Haxorus / Scarf Mence are much better examples.

QC Approved (2/3)

I think that Leaf Storm should stay in the AC. Sure it is strong and Tangrowth switches out a lot, but with Leaf Storm, SubSD Terra in sand, can abuse the SpA drops, since at -2 LS does only 37% - 44,5% on Terra. Also SubDD Gyara could set-up on you, since at -2 LS doesn't guaranteed break Gyara's subs, while at -4, it always doesn't. Giga Drain always breaks SubDD Gyra's subs btw.