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Tangrowth (OU Tank Revamp) [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Jimera0, Apr 10, 2012.

  1. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
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    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Viva la Revolution!
    QC Approvals: [Iconic][Pocket][Bloo]
    GP Edits:[Jellicent][SkullCandy]

    Introduction: Some of you will remember the stir that was started around Tangrowth a couple months back with it being put forward as an effective anti-meta Pokemon with the popularization of Volt-Turn teams. The problem with this was that the current sets on site didn't consider this at all, and so variations were born, and eventually suggested here. They recieved mixed reviews the first time, and when I tried to bring it up again I was promptly shut down. However discussion with Iconic quickly revealed the current Tank analysis on-site to be inadequate both in conveying Tangrowths unique niche in OU as well as simply lacking vital information such as counters and checks. As such, Iconic has requested that I give the Tank set a total rewrite, to reflect the current OU metagame as well as add the vital information missing in the current analysis. So, without further ado, let's get to it!
    [SET]
    name: Physically Defensive Tank
    move 1: Power Whip / Giga Drain
    move 2: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
    move 3: Sleep Powder
    move 4: Leech Seed / Knock Off
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Regenerator
    nature: Relaxed
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set takes all of Tangrowth's greatest strengths and rolls them into one set. With maximum defensive investment, Tangrowth has enough physical bulk to rival old standbys such as Skarmory and Hippowdon, while still maintaining the ability to hit back thanks to its naturally high offenses. Combined with Regenerator, this makes Tangrowth a tremendously effective defensive pivot in the current OU metagame, able to switch in and threaten top threats such as Haxorus, Dragonite, Scizor, Rotom-W, Terrakion, and more; it can then switch out afterwards none the worse for the wear thanks to Regenerator. This set can also potentially break VoltTurn chains, as Tangrowth's massive physical bulk and resistance to Rotom-W's STABs allow it to sponge U-turns and Volt-Switches before hitting the switch-in with Sleep Powder or a super effective move. Regenerator also makes it very hard for VoltTurn teams (or any team for that matter) to wear it down over time, meaning Tangrowth will frequently survive for the entire match if played carefully</p>

    <p>The choice between Power Whip and Giga Drain is somewhat of a tossup, as, while Power Whip hits most targets harder, Giga Drain recovers health and isn't affected by Burn. Giga Drain also hits some specific targets harder than Power Whip, such as Slowbro. What Hidden Power Tangrowth uses determines what it can check and what it can't, so it is vital to pick the appropriate one for your team. If Dragon-types and Gliscor are a bigger threat to the team, then Hidden Power Ice is generally the move of choice. If Scizor is a bigger concern, or the team can't afford to be set up on by Ferrothorn or Forretress, then Hidden Power Fire is a solid option. Both can be used on frailer Grass-types that resist Tangrowth's other attacks, though bulky ones such as Virizon and Celebi will probably shrug off the hit. Sleep Powder is a given on almost any set, as it allows you to instantly eliminate one of Tangrowth's counters. The choice of utility move in the last slot depends on what the team needs most. While Leech Seed is very useful for discouraging opponents from setting up on Tangrowth and increasing Tangrowth's longevity, Knock Off is an interesting option that can cripple almost any Pokemon permanently. Knock Off also reveals the opponent's item, which can be crucial to know with some Pokemon such as Salamence and Haxorus.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The above EVs and a Relaxed nature serve a simple purpose: to maximize bulk without hampering Tangrowth's ability to hit back. However, Tangrowth can also run a Bold or Impish nature along with Speed EVs to outrun and KO certain threats, at the expense of not being able to reliably check things such as Terrakion when Tangrowth is not at full health. 28 Speed EVs let it outrun Tyranitar, 84 let it outspeed most Jellicent, and 136 EVs let it outspeed standard Scizor. All of these take heavy damage from at least one of Tangrowth's moves, but can severely damage Tangrowth if they move first, allowing Tangrowth to function as a lure of sorts for these Pokemon should you need it.</p>

    <p>Aside from the listed moves, Tangrowth has several more support and coverage options that it can run should the team need them. Earthquake can be run over a support option to hit Heatran and Magnezone hard on the switch, but it's usually a better idea to put them to sleep with Sleep Powder or just double-switch out. Stun Spore is an interesting option should Tangrowth's teammates need paralysis support, but the accuracy is a letdown and other Pokemon are usually better suited to the task. Toxic can be run to give Tangrowth the edge on walls like Jellicent, Blissey, and Chansey, but in the vast majority of cases Leech Seed is superior, especially because many of the targets Leech Seed doesn't work on are immune to or or don't mind Toxic anyway. Finally, Leaf Storm is another option for a more powerful STAB that takes advantage of the hit and run nature of this set. Unfortunately, however, the Special Attack drop will make it set-up fodder for many powerful Pokemon, such as Gyarados, and it doesn’t hit much harder than Power Whip.</p>

    <p>This set is fairly dangerous on its own, but it needs team support to function to its fullest. Entry hazards of all sorts are extremely useful, as they not only allow Tangrowth to score many crucial KOs, but also take advantage of the vast number of switches Tangrowth causes. On the flip side, Tangrowth also appreciates Rapid Spin support so it can best take advantage of Regenerator. Just be careful not to compound Tangrowth's Fire-type weakness when picking a hazard layer or spinner. Tangrowth is very vulnerable to special attacks, particularly Ice- and Fire-type ones. As such, Tangrowth appreciates special walls that can easily switch into the Pokemon that like to switch into Tangrowth. Heatran and Tentacruel are especially good partners, having great offensive and defensive synergy with Tangrowth while also either providing hazards or removing them. Finally, Tangrowth also likes having a secondary physically defensive Pokemon it can switch places with in order to abuse Regenerator. RestTalk Gyarados and Vaporeon are good examples of Pokemon that can do this for Tangrowth, while also being able to support it in other ways as well. Finally, Tangrowth greatly dislikes status, especially if it's using Power Whip, so a cleric can be of help. The pink blobs, Blissey and Chansey, can take special hits for Tangrowth and cure its status problems, as well as being able to set up Stealth Rock should you need it.</p>

    <p>The specific counters and checks for this set vary greatly depending on what Hidden Power Tangrowth is using. If it is using Hidden Power Ice, it'll have a lot of trouble with Ferrothorn, Forretress, Scizor, Skarmory, and other Steel-types, who can all use it as set-up fodder. In this case, a Fire-type Pokemon like Heatran is a must to keep from having hazards littered all over your side of the field. If Tangrowth is running Hidden Power Fire instead, then it has trouble dealing with Dragon-types and Gliscor, which will set up all over it and threaten to sweep, especially if Tangrowth also passed up on Leech Seed. In this instance, a sturdy phazer is appreciated, with Vaporeon getting a special mention for defensive synergy and Heal Bell support. If all else fails, a revenge killer such as Scarf Haxorus, Mamoswine, or Starmie can be a good investment to prevent these Pokemon from getting a clean sweep.</p>


    Notes: I think it's a little long, so if anyone has suggestions for pruning it down more let me know. Also, I left a few things out (especially universal counters which should be covered in the Teammates and Counters section of the main analysis), but if anyone strongly believes I should put them in there it'd be much appreciated.
  2. LizardMan

    LizardMan Useless piano playing pair of boobs
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    This is no different from the set which is already on site besides the EV spread, and the Stun Spore/Knock Off mention.

    I also feel like you are wasting Tangrowth's full potential by using so much speed.
  3. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk Life is like a hurricane
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    This set has already been rejected before, so there's no use in posting it again. It was rejected because it's basically the same as the onsite set, with only having a different EV spread (and a different filler move).
  4. Iconic

    Iconic
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    after talking with jimera0 we decided a tangrowth revamp would be more appropriate because the onsite set doesn't mention enough options and the sets don't have teammate/counter sections
  5. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
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    Just not that as of this post the OP will not reflect that as I'm currently doing something else atm. I'll edit it to reflect the new goal of this topic sometime tomorrow.
  6. LizardMan

    LizardMan Useless piano playing pair of boobs
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    The main EV spread should be 252HP/252Def/6SpDef. While the EV spread which outruns Scizor should be mentioned elsewhere if anything.
  7. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
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    Bwahaha I was editing in that very spread just as you were posting, as well as completely re-writing everything else. Sorry, Iconic got to your point waaaaay ahead of you via PM :P

    So yes, everyone, Thread conversion is complete! Currently this set has a serious case of slashitus, so I'll be needing some imput on what to cut and what to leave in. Personally, I am VERY partial to keeping Knock Off in the set, as it's not a move a lot of Pokemon can run effectively and it has great utility in the current metagame, not just because nothing likes losing their item but also because it's one of the few ways to learn what set an opponent is running BEFORE they attack (assuming you do it on the switch). I also loves that it removes Rocky Helmet without taking damage from it, something which has amused me to no end on numerous occasions as people bitch about it.
  8. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Since you're revamping the entire Tangrowth OU analysis, you need to include an Overview, Other Options, and Checks and Counters section.
  9. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
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    No no, I'm not revamping the entire analysis (at least that's not what I THOUGHT Iconic meant), just this one set. As far as I'm aware, the Cholophyll based set is just fine (I wouldn't know; I've never used Tangrowth in sun). Unless Iconic comes in to correct me, the scope of this revamp is limited to this one set.
  10. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Hi Jimera and good job for revamping the amazing Tangrowth after our efforts for adding a new set failed :(

    I have to ask though, why the max HP/max Def should be the main spread instead of the spread that outruns 8 Spe Scizor?

    Does Tangorwth lose to any OU pokes that it could beat before without the 136 EVs that are needed to outspeed Scizor? Because i don't think it does. Even with max Def, CB Terrakion 2hkoes with SR, while anything else is still handled ok.

    So unless someone can present some evidence of why should Tangrowth run max Def i think that breaking, or at least helping immensely with Volt-Turn teams is one of Tangrowth's biggest selling points right now, and as such shouldn't be overlooked.
  11. Knight of Cydonia

    Knight of Cydonia dance commander
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    @alexwolf - I agree that if there are no specific KO's it avoids then I think it should be given the speed to outrun Scizor. Another weapon against Volt-Turn is excellent when the metagame is full of it.
  12. LizardMan

    LizardMan Useless piano playing pair of boobs
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    It doesn't matter if it doesn't avoid any specific KOs or not. Tangrowth won't always be at full health, and the bulk is useful for those cases.

    Scizor is also a pokemon which commonly speed creeps up and has a greater chance of winning the speed war.

    Most walls run max HP/near max defense not because it avoids 2HKOs.
  13. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    @LizardMan

    Tangrowth certainly will be almost always at full health due to its ability. Speed creep is an irrelevant factor as anyone can speed creep if he wants, and shouldn't be a reason for not giving Tangrowth any speed.
  14. LizardMan

    LizardMan Useless piano playing pair of boobs
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    128 EVs for a chance to outrun one pokemon. A pokemon which may or may not be on their team. A pokemon which still has a greater chance to outrun.

    Regenerator is not a cure all. There is factors like status, spikes, and hard hitting pokemon all adding up on you.

    252HP/120Def/136spe Tangrowth is not worthy speed creep.
  15. dice

    dice RAP GAME GiTTARACKUR
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    Speedy Tangrowth is dumb. You lose too much bulk and speedy Scizors are getting more common. If you want a Grass Type to break VoltTurn use E-Belt Aboma or Work Up Virizion.
  16. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
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    This is very true. Another thing you're forgetting Alex is that CB Scizor U-Turn does do up to 75% and that a little bit of left over damage can and will get you killed. One of the reasons I had so much success with my speedy Tangrowth was that I ran Intimidate Gyarados on the same team, which esentially allowed me to make up for the bulk Tangrowth lost from running speed EVs. We're talking about a more catch all set here, and for most teams a bulkier spread is preferable. This isn't like an offensive set where you can run specific EVs to survive specific attacks and keep going; this thing is a WALL, and it needs to be able to do its job even when it's not in top shape. And as awesome as regenerator is, there are times when it won't be enough.

    That being said, I am DEFINITELY putting it in the AC saying that if you can provide the support you can make it faster without too many drawbacks. The issue is most people don't have that support, sooooo yeah.
  17. lmitchell0012

    lmitchell0012 Wi-Fi Blacklisted

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    Shouldn't nature power be used instead of EQ?? I know they're both the same thing in wifi, but isn't nature power the better choice due to the higher PP?? Also, I think rock slide deserves a mention to discourage volcarona from switching into you.
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    It depends on how you describe the situation. If you describe that the evs are just to outrun a poke then it doesn't seem worth it. But if you describe that the evs help to beat a whole strategy (aka Volt-turn), then it seems much more worth it.

    Also the evs are not only for outspeeding Scizor but also to outspeed and deal a huge deal of damage with Power Whip to Ttar, before it has a chance to ohko you with Fire Blast.

    And no Scizor doesn't have a bigger chance to outrun you with those evs. The most used Scizor, which is CB, commonly runs 8 Spe evs. If you are so deathly afraid of a speed creep run 4 or 8 more Spe evs, that's up to you. But the facts are that, you are going to outspeed most CBZors out there with this spread (check the moveset statistics if you don't believe me), and the ones you don't outspeed are the SD variants, from which you can tank a Bug Bite and ko back with HP Fire.

    Finally of 'course there are passive damage that Tangrowth has to endure, but if you play him as you should, which means bringing him in and out a lot, then he will be in tip top shape (most Tangrowth players already know that).

    @Jimera

    As i said you are going to outspeed most CBzors out there, so most of the times you will be the winner and they will lose their Scizor if they stay in. Why are we all assuming that the opposing Scizor will stay in and that Tangrowth must switch out? The opposite should happen since Tangrowth can actually tank a U-turn, unlike Scizor which loses 76.96 - 90.96%, a sure ohko after 2 SR switch-ins, something very easy to happen on a CB Scizor.

    The decision is for you and the QC team to make, but i still insist that the speedy Tangrowth is the way to go, since combating Volt-Turn teams is one of the main draws of using Tangrowth in the first place in OU.
  19. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
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    No, Nature Power is tauntable, Earthquake is not. You're a lot more likely to get taunted than you are to run out of EQ PP with this set, so usually EQ is the better choice.

    As for Rock Slide, I guess that could be an AC mention if your team is weak to Volcarona but it provides pretty much no important coverage outside of it so definitely no more than that. Honestly, even an AC mention is pushing it for just one Pokemon, but Volcarona couldn't give less of a shit about anything Tangrowth can do to it after sleep clause is activated so it might actually make a good lure. It can't OHKO the bulky variant without investment, but it can OHKO offensive and do upwards of 80% to bulky versions. certainly useful when the circumstances arises... thing is, Heatran is going to come up a lot more often.

    @Alex the speedy set will be given justice in this analysis, however it will NOT be the same option because it just requires too much support to work well as a volt-turn stopper by itself. It can certainly act as part of a core (as it did on my team) but not on its own. It will be explained, but for most purposes the bulky spread is better, and still fucks with volt-turn since you can still steal some momentumn with it.
  20. Arcticblast

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    Being a wall, Tangrowth is likely to fall victim to Taunt. Nature Power is shut down by Taunt.

    And I honestly think Knock Off and Leech Seed should be the two options in the last slot. They're arguably the two most important - Earthquake really only hits Tran and Tentacruel (not a reason not to run it, but Knock Off fucks them both up) and Stun Spore has competition with Thunder Wave and its wide distribution, although being able to paralyze anything immune to Electric (no Ground-type Sap Sipper) is nice.

    Also mention that with Giga Drain and without Earthquake, Tangrowth can run Bold and get a little Speed back.
  21. LizardMan

    LizardMan Useless piano playing pair of boobs
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    +2 LO Terrakion and Lucario have a much much greater chance to OHKO Tangrowth with the fast spread after SR. Tyranitar can also occasionally see speed creep from time and time again, and you still lose.

    When both players are very good, I really don't think Tangrowth will always be in tip top shape. It is not omni-heal. The opponent knows that is the way to keep Tangrowth alive, and can take advantage of the switching.

    PS:Speed creep is a very real thing. I for one always use 16 speed Scizor and 181 speed Tyranitar. Many players speed creep. Trying to use Tangrowth as an overspecific check to Scizor is not playing to Tangrowth's strengths.

    Especially when +2 LO Terrakion has a chance to OHKO the fast Tangrowth spread even without Stealth Rock. 84.9% - 100.2%
  22. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    I will give you this 2 pokes, although SD Terrakion is quite rare.

    But pls stop telling me about speed creeps. Every single poke can speed creep, and guess what, so can Tangrowth. This is starting to become ridiculous. If we go by your logic the opponent would be stupid to stay in too with his speed creeped Ttar, because Tangrowth can be speed creeping more lol and ohko first. Pls enough with the speed creep, there is a reason why we have official analyses.

    You also say that the opponent can take advantage of that switching, and i ask you how exactly? You switch out when something that can hurt you or something that you can't hurt enters the field. So let's say i have Tangrowth in while you have Terrakion. I, predicting that you will switch out to your Heatran, go to my water type, while you predict that i will switch out and go for the appropriate move hurting my water poke on the switch. But if your prediction doesn't go well, you just lost your Terrakion.

    So most of the times, you will be switching out only when you must, and the opponent would take advantage of that in the same way that any poke takes advantage of a poke that it forces out. And anyway let's not start talking about prediction stuff, since this goes both ways (you can abuse my switches, and i can abuse your mindset that i am going to switch out a lot).

    The last thing i am going to say about Speed creep. As i said again if you are so afraid of speed creep, run 4 or 8 more Spe evs on your Tangrowth and stop obsessing with it ffs. If anyone was acting like this about speed creep then we wouldn't be able to decide how many speed evs we should put in our analyses, because other pokes could speed creep us. Speed creep is not a factor in the analysis, and so it is left as your own decision to make so pls stop bringing it up.
  23. ginganinja

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    Just pointing out that SD Terrakion is used around 27% of the time which means that roughly one quarter of all Terrakion you face can Swords Dance, fucking that Tangrowth set over and really putting the pressure on. Does anyone else think 27% is rare?
  24. LizardMan

    LizardMan Useless piano playing pair of boobs
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    First off, if you want a defensive grass type who can outrun and hit Scizor with HP Fire, while check Rotom-w with grass typing - meet Celebi.

    Tangrowth requires much more energy to speed creep since its slower. If Tangrowth uses 136 EVs, and still happens to get outran due to the opponent creeping - you just wasted 136 EVs. If my 16Spe Scizor gets outran by a 20 speed Scizor, I only waste 16 EVs.

    There has to be a line drawn somewhere for the analysis onsite, but that doesn't mean people will magically stop speed creeping if their team requires it.

    I don't care if you have a water type. If I have Stealth Rock up, LO Terrakion will beat your Tangrowth and your water type since you only run 120 Def EVs.

    You need to switch more with the fast Tangrowth spread. That is like pressing Recover more often with a Gastrodon because you have a burn. Its a liability.
  25. Lord of Bays

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    Dude, have you noticed that, right now in the write-up, 252/252/4 is the spread they're using? Why are you still kicking up a storm over this?

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