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Pokemon Black 2 and White 2 Move Tutor Moves
- Thread starter SupremeDirt
- Start date
It does, but remember that Roost also sheds the flying type. Reflect / Roost / Ice Beam / Whirlwind could conceivably set up a Reflect on Zekrom, then use Roost to PP stall it since Lugia is faster and would be a pure Psychic-type on the turn it heals.
Between Pt and HGSS we got a lot of new Egg/Level Up moves. So tutors aside, there's still potential for some interesting new sets to become possible.
It's clear that they picked certain moves to be given out as new Egg moves (multiple pokes got Dragon Dance, Agility, the Stockpile trio, Morning Sun, Curse, etc.) Assuming they do the same thing, let's hope they picked some good ones.
It's clear that they picked certain moves to be given out as new Egg moves (multiple pokes got Dragon Dance, Agility, the Stockpile trio, Morning Sun, Curse, etc.) Assuming they do the same thing, let's hope they picked some good ones.
I know it's not practical to suggest my proposal here, but regardless I know I am not the only member of staff in Smogon who's determined to give certain suspects another chance in B&W2.
Those Pokemon I'd like to nominate are as follows: Garchomp, Thundurus and Excadrill.
With Keldeo's release a whisper away, it's safe to say that rain teams will welcome his arrival with open arms. Volturn is ever present, and announcements are presenting us with exclusive changes to particular movesets on standard Pokemon, which are surely going to shake things up for the better.
Whether these changes are a benefit to any individual Pokemon or not is another question, but I think we can all assume common Pokemon like Salamence and Dragonite have been given more support; more so than being restricted. Generally BW2 is going to loosen up the competitive scene.
So, a lot of us are eagerly awaiting the complete makeover. Perhaps not immediately, but some where along the line, am I getting ahead of myself by asking us as a community to reconsider Garchomp (Rough Skin, when legal), Excadrill and Thundurus?
Fact is, those three suggested would be a huge relief on building different styles of teams. We can check Volturn much easier with Thundurus' new ability; Garchomp also covers Volturn remarkably well; and even Excadrill helps balance between offense, defense and hazard support.
They may stick out more so than some OU Pokemon, but at the end of the day they don't summon weather: weather IS gen 5. Right now I think rain is lacking, but that's not recognising how those boosted Water-type attacks force you to run Tyranitar/Gastrodon.
I want to ask you guys what you think before we all jump in the deep end and say: "we've banned them already, so no". I can tell you now I strongly believe rejuvenating the suspect system for the sake of a constructively active metagame is the way to go.
Those Pokemon I'd like to nominate are as follows: Garchomp, Thundurus and Excadrill.
With Keldeo's release a whisper away, it's safe to say that rain teams will welcome his arrival with open arms. Volturn is ever present, and announcements are presenting us with exclusive changes to particular movesets on standard Pokemon, which are surely going to shake things up for the better.
Whether these changes are a benefit to any individual Pokemon or not is another question, but I think we can all assume common Pokemon like Salamence and Dragonite have been given more support; more so than being restricted. Generally BW2 is going to loosen up the competitive scene.
So, a lot of us are eagerly awaiting the complete makeover. Perhaps not immediately, but some where along the line, am I getting ahead of myself by asking us as a community to reconsider Garchomp (Rough Skin, when legal), Excadrill and Thundurus?
Fact is, those three suggested would be a huge relief on building different styles of teams. We can check Volturn much easier with Thundurus' new ability; Garchomp also covers Volturn remarkably well; and even Excadrill helps balance between offense, defense and hazard support.
They may stick out more so than some OU Pokemon, but at the end of the day they don't summon weather: weather IS gen 5. Right now I think rain is lacking, but that's not recognising how those boosted Water-type attacks force you to run Tyranitar/Gastrodon.
I want to ask you guys what you think before we all jump in the deep end and say: "we've banned them already, so no". I can tell you now I strongly believe rejuvenating the suspect system for the sake of a constructively active metagame is the way to go.
I don't actually have too much of a problem with your proposal Taylor. I think that metagame would have changed significantly enough to give this a try. However, I personally, would rather the metagame stabilised before we started re-testing old suspects, considering that between Keldeo, Dream Wolrd abilities being realeased, and new moves being available to pokemon via Move Tutors, that we are in for a bumpy few months, and I would rather test Garchomp / Excadrill / Thundurus in a "relatively" stable environment to get a clear picture as to what kind of potential metagame, those old suspects could take it, and whether it is enjoyable for most of us.
That said, if and when we re-test old suspects, I would rather the reason be "because the metagame has significantly changed enough to warrant a re-test" rather than a "man I would like a new Volt Turn counter, lets drop these bastards down!" Regardless tho, I think that a re-test of those suspects is something I would support, further down the track.
That said, if and when we re-test old suspects, I would rather the reason be "because the metagame has significantly changed enough to warrant a re-test" rather than a "man I would like a new Volt Turn counter, lets drop these bastards down!" Regardless tho, I think that a re-test of those suspects is something I would support, further down the track.
Considering we'll have Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, and Landorus-T ("T" because their US Forme name being "Therian"), I think the metagame can withstand the dropping down of Chompy/Thundurus/Excadrill.
Landorus-T with Bulk Up and Intimidate is legit scary to Chompy/Excadrill, even though we don't know that stat spread yet. NP Thundurus is going to have more difficulty with Lightningrod SpD Zappy and potentially Thundurus-T.
Dual Chop's distribution will also be critical since the move can make SubDance Chomp's job a lot harder. In any case I don't think the metagame needs to "stabilize" before we re-test the old threats. Excadrill got tested not less than four times before finally getting the boot.
Maybe since Amoonguss is getting so much hype now we can bring Blaziken back :D
Landorus-T with Bulk Up and Intimidate is legit scary to Chompy/Excadrill, even though we don't know that stat spread yet. NP Thundurus is going to have more difficulty with Lightningrod SpD Zappy and potentially Thundurus-T.
Dual Chop's distribution will also be critical since the move can make SubDance Chomp's job a lot harder. In any case I don't think the metagame needs to "stabilize" before we re-test the old threats. Excadrill got tested not less than four times before finally getting the boot.
Maybe since Amoonguss is getting so much hype now we can bring Blaziken back :D
irrelevant
Other than Scor, Random grounds, and Ferro having Hazzard + Seed moveset
All of which didnt sound that much, really
Also, when its revealed imma run Tornadus ^^
Okay I wanna know what set Poison Heal Gliscor is going to run with Roost. I can't think of one set that would benefit from Roost more than Protect. Gliscor doesn't have any sort of recovery issues, so why is Roost being hailed as the holy grail for Gliscor?
As for the banished 3, Garchomp doesn't change. Unless every Ice-type move has a never miss property in BW2, Garchomp is unhealthy for the metagame. Dual Chop would be cute if Garchomp wasn't the fastest Physical Dragon smashing the others. The DW OU Bandwagon seems to dance cutely around Sand Veil questions when it's brought up so it seems to be a touchy subject even there. I'd just stop playing on Smogon entirely if he was brought back. Not worth the headaches.
I've never had an issue with Thundurus. Any Scarfer with a SE move or a powerful neutral move checks or revenges him. If he has Thunder Wave, he's missing Nasty Plot or a coverage move and is much easier to play around the moment you know this.
I'm on the fence about Excadrill. He's the game's best Rapid Spinner and, since he left, nothing's truly filled that void for Sand teams. Donphan can't even stack up to that typing & ease of switching-in. However, it's that Swords Dance set that's the issue. There are a fair few Pokemon that can defeat Excadrill and more being added via Dream World but a lot of those Pokemon are average at best in OU and limits Teambuilding rather heavily. It still has the issue of entirely breaking Speed tiers.
However, I believe we should see what BW2 gives us, play around with it and go from there. No one's to say what BW2 will look like at first so I'd feel safer getting to know the new additions to the modern metagame before we jail break prisoners of the old metagame.
Manaphy still exists btw.
As for the banished 3, Garchomp doesn't change. Unless every Ice-type move has a never miss property in BW2, Garchomp is unhealthy for the metagame. Dual Chop would be cute if Garchomp wasn't the fastest Physical Dragon smashing the others. The DW OU Bandwagon seems to dance cutely around Sand Veil questions when it's brought up so it seems to be a touchy subject even there. I'd just stop playing on Smogon entirely if he was brought back. Not worth the headaches.
I've never had an issue with Thundurus. Any Scarfer with a SE move or a powerful neutral move checks or revenges him. If he has Thunder Wave, he's missing Nasty Plot or a coverage move and is much easier to play around the moment you know this.
I'm on the fence about Excadrill. He's the game's best Rapid Spinner and, since he left, nothing's truly filled that void for Sand teams. Donphan can't even stack up to that typing & ease of switching-in. However, it's that Swords Dance set that's the issue. There are a fair few Pokemon that can defeat Excadrill and more being added via Dream World but a lot of those Pokemon are average at best in OU and limits Teambuilding rather heavily. It still has the issue of entirely breaking Speed tiers.
However, I believe we should see what BW2 gives us, play around with it and go from there. No one's to say what BW2 will look like at first so I'd feel safer getting to know the new additions to the modern metagame before we jail break prisoners of the old metagame.
Manaphy still exists btw.
I feel like I'm the only one who's hoping for Serperior to get Superpower. I've always imagined SP as a full body lunge at the opponent, that's why your stats drain (Plus Serperior and Superpower kinda sound alike). So I can see him getting that, and imagine how bulky he could be after a few of those.
Just another idea to keep us hopefuls going.
Just another idea to keep us hopefuls going.
I'm particually scared of the prospect of Scarf Moxie Outrage Salamence...
Especially paired with, say, Magnezone and Dragonite.
As Katakiri said, Garchomp is going to be broken as long as it has Sand Veil, or until a never miss Ice move exists on a pokemon that can outspeed it [Or a No Guard Ice sharder].
Thunderus should get another chance, I guess, seeing as it was arguable, and has a new forme.
Excadrill is just plain broken. It still will have about 600 speed and ther ability to be a nigh unstoppable force if you kill Gliscor. The last thing I think anyone wants is the old Excadrill metagame with added Keldeo. It dosen't matter what other pokemon get, if Excadrill gets in, something usually dies, sometimes multiple things. Nothing can trap Excadrill either, and whatever you use to try and stop it, will take a massive hit and be crippled for something else.
I'd agree with a Thunderus re-test, but not the other two. I'd agree to a Blaziken re-test [Scarf Keldeo anyone?] more than re-testing Excadrill.
Also, another wave of tutors goes by, and poor Flareon still dosen't have Flare Blitz.
Especially paired with, say, Magnezone and Dragonite.
As Katakiri said, Garchomp is going to be broken as long as it has Sand Veil, or until a never miss Ice move exists on a pokemon that can outspeed it [Or a No Guard Ice sharder].
Thunderus should get another chance, I guess, seeing as it was arguable, and has a new forme.
Excadrill is just plain broken. It still will have about 600 speed and ther ability to be a nigh unstoppable force if you kill Gliscor. The last thing I think anyone wants is the old Excadrill metagame with added Keldeo. It dosen't matter what other pokemon get, if Excadrill gets in, something usually dies, sometimes multiple things. Nothing can trap Excadrill either, and whatever you use to try and stop it, will take a massive hit and be crippled for something else.
I'd agree with a Thunderus re-test, but not the other two. I'd agree to a Blaziken re-test [Scarf Keldeo anyone?] more than re-testing Excadrill.
Also, another wave of tutors goes by, and poor Flareon still dosen't have Flare Blitz.
haunter
Banned deucer.
Scarf moxie outrage Mence is already available. What's not currently legal is moxie+dragon dance+outrage.
It's not like Keldeo is able to take LO high jump kicks on the switch. It's not a better Blaziken check than many other scarfers (if anything scarf Lati@s resist both its stabs).
I need these ROMs hacked, dying to see where these move tutors end up. Dual Chop and Drill run in particular had very restricted availability and it seemed like it was because they were already on the most logical pokemon already. Now that they're tutors, this could expand onto some VERY dangerous things.
Dual chop technician Scizor? Drill run shell smash Cloyster? Very interested to see who ends up with what...
Dual chop technician Scizor? Drill run shell smash Cloyster? Very interested to see who ends up with what...
No offense dude, but you're out of your mind if you think Scarf Keldeo's integration into the metagame will somehow "justify" testing Blaziken again. Most of the hardiest, no-ban users on the site accept the fact that Blaziken is broken (possibly the single most broken OU suspect to ever exist.)
In terms of re-tests, I could really justify re-testing Garchomp / Excadrill / Thundurus again.
I think coming back Thundurus, Garchomp, Blaziken and Excadrill would be bad for the metagame. Maybe Rough Skin Garchomp could be considered, but I think Garchomp is too good even for the metagame. Godly defensive types(unlike Terrakion) and great STABs(Mienshao is countered by every Ghost type)
Anyways they could be tested again when the new metagame will stabilize.
Thinking about Garchomp, now it would be possible to use sets like: Rest/SleepTalk/Roar/Dragon Tail with Rough Skin or SR on Garchomp with Rough Skin.
And Terrakion with SR, it could be useful on its Choice sets since the last move is usually a filler, specially in its Choice Scarf set and in its Band set, replacing X-Scissor which is mainly for not to risk with Stone Edge's accuracy, or Quick Attack, but Quick Attack could be more useful.
Anyways they could be tested again when the new metagame will stabilize.
Thinking about Garchomp, now it would be possible to use sets like: Rest/SleepTalk/Roar/Dragon Tail with Rough Skin or SR on Garchomp with Rough Skin.
And Terrakion with SR, it could be useful on its Choice sets since the last move is usually a filler, specially in its Choice Scarf set and in its Band set, replacing X-Scissor which is mainly for not to risk with Stone Edge's accuracy, or Quick Attack, but Quick Attack could be more useful.
BurningMan
fueled by beer
Yeah we shouldn't re-test them, i mean they were broken once so i why should we re-test them in a completly different enviroment, it's not likely that they won't be broken now. We also should have never allowed Mew, Lati@s, Deoxys-D or even Wynaut to be retested these things were banned in Gen 4 and as we have seen they proved to be so broken that some of them aren't even OU.
Honestly i am a little shocked that a re-test wasn't already planned for B/W 2, the meta game changes will be big with all the new formes, move tutors and likely DW abilities that get released and seeing how some Pokemon that are banned in standart roam free in the current DW metagame shows how much impact these kind of changes can have.
Honestly i am a little shocked that a re-test wasn't already planned for B/W 2, the meta game changes will be big with all the new formes, move tutors and likely DW abilities that get released and seeing how some Pokemon that are banned in standart roam free in the current DW metagame shows how much impact these kind of changes can have.
I'm saying I'd veiw Blaziken as more likly for a re-test than Excadrill.
B/W 2 has brought nothing to battle Excadrill that wasn't already a check [Gliscor]. Scarf Keldeo can check Blaziken at least, as it outspeeds +1 Blaziken.
I never said 'Blaziken should be re-tested'. Blaziken is broken as hell. But there's more reason to re-test Blaziken than Excadrill. Re-testing Blaziken is stupid. Just like re-testing Excadrill.
Blaziken can not fit in the metagame, serisously that thing is broken, with SD + pretect is just deadly. I agree with the Thundurus retest, also Garchomp and Excadrill could be retested, but those still have bigger adventages than thundurus has. The only reason to retest them is that now with keldeo, rain will be more used, making sand alittle less used. Other than that I would say keep them banned.
I wasn't around for the original tests, but I think that we can chance a retest on Thundurus and Excadrill. In fact, testing them right after the release of BW2 would be ideal. Everyone will be trying new things. Chances are, there'll be a new checks or counters that could tip the scales and maybe let them back into OU. In a few monthes, we'll have settled into a new OU. There'll be new sets and 'mons, of course, but not nearly the volume there'll be when the new games are released. Garchomp? I'd be fine if only Sand Veil was banned. Sand Veil turns any check into a shakey one at best. Of course, until Rough Skin is released, Garchomp would remain banned, but that's the only way I can see it back in OU.
ss234
bop.
I'd love to see Garchomp back in the metegame, and I've always likes Thunderus. Blaziken-just no. I didn't play during the early stages, but that just sounds terrifying. Excadrill shouldn't be that hard to counter, what with an inevitable rise of Gliscor, as well as Conkeldurr. I think that Scarf Chomp would get an open welcome into the metagame frankly, what with Haxorus and DD MoxieMence, and an inevitable rise of Mamoswine due to the above two means that he won't be too short of counters. On the other hand, I only want to see him with Rough Skin frankly-Sand Veil sounds really broken.
So kind of on the edge about Excadrill, no Blaziken retest, and a Garchomp and Thunderus retest would be great.
By the way, when is Garchomp's DW ability getting released?
So kind of on the edge about Excadrill, no Blaziken retest, and a Garchomp and Thunderus retest would be great.
By the way, when is Garchomp's DW ability getting released?
Oh god please let just thunderbro down. I wasn't around for the Garchomp era but I was around at the peak of the Excadrill period. Excadrill put such a strain on team building it sucked. First and biggest thing it did was overcentralize the game on weather: if you didn't choose to run Ttar+Drill you were going to have to run an alternate weather to contain that threat. Essentially, the choice of the first team slot was constrained to 5 Pokes, with two of those (Ttar and Hippo) being packaged with Excadrill. Second it made you couple things on teams that didn't make any sense. Incorporating Gliscor on an HO team for dat offense? Nope it was for Excadrill and for it alone.
I think one of the bigger things about Excadrill that seems to be forgotten is the suppression of Scarfers. Why run a Scarf if its revenge killing utility would be absolutely useless, making it more of a liability than a fix. So with that you got Pokes that seemed impossible to revenge kill (ala Thunderus) when in fact it only lands in the base 111 speed tier (this is why thunderus was unjustly banned in a package). The only way to make sure your scarfer did its job was, of course, running your own weather which leads us back to the first problem. When you saw people put Excadrill on their own teams that weren't even sand (I remember reading it now lol: hey guys it is a "sand thief") I thought maybe it was a bit to crazy for the tier.
So yeah plz no Excadrill.
Also kami trio alternate forms stats are out:
edit: if you follow the quoted post, you will find out that MeroMero has the game itself
I think one of the bigger things about Excadrill that seems to be forgotten is the suppression of Scarfers. Why run a Scarf if its revenge killing utility would be absolutely useless, making it more of a liability than a fix. So with that you got Pokes that seemed impossible to revenge kill (ala Thunderus) when in fact it only lands in the base 111 speed tier (this is why thunderus was unjustly banned in a package). The only way to make sure your scarfer did its job was, of course, running your own weather which leads us back to the first problem. When you saw people put Excadrill on their own teams that weren't even sand (I remember reading it now lol: hey guys it is a "sand thief") I thought maybe it was a bit to crazy for the tier.
So yeah plz no Excadrill.
Also kami trio alternate forms stats are out:
edit: if you follow the quoted post, you will find out that MeroMero has the game itself
For all those who say that only Rough Skin Garchomp should be banned - its not gonna happen. Its like saying ban only speed boost Blaziken. Ban Dark Void Darkrai. Ban Kyogre with water moves. Etc. Etc. Ask some of the more knowledgable players. They can explain this to you a lot better. Btw Blaziken, Garchomp and Excadrill do well in ubers. Thundurus is lacking and when compared to the other three, its not nearly as broken. Maybe some people dont know but Garchomp was a lot harder to kill than some of the other Dragons in the tier, the Ground typing really helped, mainly in two ways - 1) It was resistant to Stealth Rock, 2) Having access to STAB Earthquake meant that it wouldnt always have to lock itself into Outrage. The other physical Dragons would more often have to lock themselves into Outrage and then would be revenge killed by Priority or scarfers. The 102 base speed and sand stream meant that Landorus couldmt revenge him as easily as he could Salamence and Dragonite with Stone Edge. You have to admit that Garchomp was the best physical Dragon in OU and could also use fire blast to get past Skarmory, heck it had great overall bulk and could also use Stealth Rock. There were little to no flaws that the Dragon had. However we must not forget that Garchomp's ban was before Excadrill was banned. This might have meant that the combination of excadrill and Garchomp was broken. I will leave it up to the more experienced to discuss furthur.
BTW Thundurus was banned after the more broken things so it may deserve a retest.
EDIT: I was just pointing out that Thundurus is less broken than the others. I never said that it should go to OU just because its not good in Ubers. More so I just wanted to point out that Blaziken, Garchomp and Excadrill to well in Uber which is why they have an easy time wrecking the even frailer things in OU. Again, I am not using this as an argument.
BTW Thundurus was banned after the more broken things so it may deserve a retest.
EDIT: I was just pointing out that Thundurus is less broken than the others. I never said that it should go to OU just because its not good in Ubers. More so I just wanted to point out that Blaziken, Garchomp and Excadrill to well in Uber which is why they have an easy time wrecking the even frailer things in OU. Again, I am not using this as an argument.