Counter This Pokemon [ginganinja vs TEMP V1]

pieguy13 said:

So this Rotom seems to be somewhat of a problem. If rain is a potential factor, I think this set will work well.

Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword / Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Icy Wind

This set is really good in that almost nothing resists it (too lazy to look up what does/does not). IF we're in the rain, STAB Hydro Pump will destroy everything. The choice between Secret Sword and Focus Blast is only if you want more power, but SS may be helpful for Heatran since it's specially defensive.

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I don't really like this. Rotom-W is still a pretty big threat to this; Hidden Power Grass doesn't OHKO- which means that Rotom can bait you, switch to Celebi, and then set up. Not to mention this is way too one-sided.

CrackinSkulls said:

We are allowed to double up on pokemon right? Well i suggest...

Non Choice Attacker Celebi @ Life Orb
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 160 HP / 152 SAtk / 196 Spd
Modest Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Earth Power
- U-turn
- Recover


This Celebi is a great addition to team 1. It can take on every single one of team 2's pokemon. It takes an almighty chunk out of Heatran with Earth Power, Rotom-W and Mamoswine will both be OHKO'd by Leaf Storm and Celebi will fall to a U-turn + Thundurus combo. Not only does it KO basically their whole team, Celebi brings a lot of things to the table. It can U-turn to keep momentum for one which will be a huge advantage. Not only that but with its bulk, typing and offenses it makes great glue for the team in general. Anyway just my 2 cents.

On a side note the EV spread could change slightly and have 204 in speed to outspeed celebi however i think the current spread is more advantageous.

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Not that Heatran thing again. It's fine to have to of the same pokemon on different teams, but whether that's a good idea or not is questionable. I'm a huge fan of Celebi, but it doesn't really fit in well- another Psychic type weak to U-Turn and Pursuit, which is definitely something Team 2 could go for. An ok idea, ImO.

nobody offered an opinion on protect terrakion yet, i still contend that it's a perfect check to team 2's lineup right now, as it can beat 3/4 of team 2's pokemon 1v1 and scout rotom-w's choice-locked move before switching out.

Lavos Spawn said:

nobody offered an opinion on protect terrakion yet, i still contend that it's a perfect check to team 2's lineup right now, as it can beat 3/4 of team 2's pokemon 1v1 and scout rotom-w's choice-locked move before switching out.

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It has a lot of trouble switching in, for starters.

Celebi deals 75% dmg upwards with unboosted Giga Drain. Heatran burns with WoW / Plume. Rotom OHKOes with Hydro Pump and Mamo OHKOes with EQ.

Add to that the fact that we don't have any VoltTurners, and there's the main problem.

I personally like it; but I think it would be beneficial to include at least SR on our team, since it turns some 3HKOes into 2HKOes and 2HKOes into OHKOes on top of punishing Rotom-W for prancing around with Volt Switch.

I've seen people note an absence of a Stealth Rocker and Spinner on our team, and there have been some great suggestions for other pokes already, so for these reasons I'm going to suggest.


Kabutops @ Leftovers (Life Orb?)
Trait: Battle Armour (Weak Armour?)
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def (if Weak Armour, max speed instead of HP)
Nature: Adamant (Jolly if Weak armour)
-Stealth Rock
-Rapid Spin
-Waterfall
-Stone Edge


Firstly I want to apologise for the bracketed sections. They are there because I am unsure whether weak armour is really viable, or if it disallows any of the moves in the set. Until further notice, please ignore them completely.
Kabutops offers us great utility in Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin, whilst still having a reasonable attack stat to allow us to maintain offensive momentum. His weaknesses to Electric, Ground, Grass and Fighting are a potential problem, but that (combined with resistances to Ice and Fire) gives him reasonable synergy with Thundurus-T and Metagross and his two STABS gives us reasonable coverage, being walled primarily by Celebi, who you wouldn't leave Kabutops in on anyway. That does present a problem, however. Kabutops gives Celebi an excellent opportunity to switch in and set up a Nasty Plot and T-Wave on the switch, especially if our counters or checks are already dead.

Besides that, there is unfortunately not much to say about Kabutops. He fills a fairly niche role in OU and probably wouldn't be considered in most situations, but I feel his ability to set up Rocks, spin hazards and maintain some offensive pressure, along with some reasonable synergy, could make him a very viable team member for T1.

EDIT: If anybody talks about Kabutops as an option (whether thinking it's a bad idea or a good one) I'd really appreciate it if you talked about the viability of Weak Armour. Thanks.

@ClubbingSealCub Thanks.

pieguy13 said:

So this Rotom seems to be somewhat of a problem. If rain is a potential factor, I think this set will work well.

Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword / Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Icy Wind

This set is really good in that almost nothing resists it (too lazy to look up what does/does not). IF we're in the rain, STAB Hydro Pump will destroy everything. The choice between Secret Sword and Focus Blast is only if you want more power, but SS may be helpful for Heatran since it's specially defensive.

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Scarf Keldeo is a good revengekiller eventually, if you want hitting hard use it specs :]
but ... you lose the ability to surprise Tornadus-T and Thundurus-T (without scarf obv)...with many works

Xelacalle said:

EDIT: If anybody talks about Kabutops as an option (whether thinking it's a bad idea or a good one) I'd really appreciate it if you talked about the viability of Weak Armour. Thanks.

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Rapid Spin is an Egg Move (Squirtle Line) so I think it's illegal with Weak Armor. That would make it lose it's "niche".

However, a set with SR / Waterfall / Edge / X-scissor could be a good idea

Rotom does in fact appear problematic, but we chiefly want a Rotom counter that won't fall to Mamo. Those are few and far between, however. And it needs to be able to take a Trick. This leads me to think that Latios is the best choice for our team:


Latios @ Choice Specs
Timid
Levitate
252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
-Draco Meteor
-HP Fire
-Surf
-Trick

Latios is an absolute monster. It OHKOes the entirety of Team 2 except for Heatran with Dmeteor, and Heatran is 2hkoed with Surf or destroyed with Trick. It gets a free switch on either Heatran or Rotom and can proceed to tear down the entirety of Team 2, almost no prediction necessary~ If Rotom tries to Trick it, then congratulations to rotom! You just a) made yourself slow as balls and b) turned latios into a disgustingly fast revenge killing machine! This should eliminate our Rotom problems i think.

@Pwnemon I really think its important that we get more physical attackers on Team 1 before thinking about polishing it off with Lati@s. Not only that, but another Pursuit weakness really opens Team 1 up to a powerful Pursuit user such as Scizor. Plus an extra weakness to Ice means that when Mamoswine is on the field for Team 2 there will be difficulties switching in. I think its absolutely crucial to not only opt for a physical attacker, but one who also brings with it a resistance to Mamoswine.

Please forgive any grammar and spelling mistakes, this was posted from my iPhone.

PapaBearAds said:

@Pwnemon I really think its important that we get more physical attackers on Team 1 before thinking about polishing it off with Lati@s. Not only that, but another Pursuit weakness really opens Team 1 up to a powerful Pursuit user such as Scizor. Plus an extra weakness to Ice means that when Mamoswine is on the field for Team 2 there will be difficulties switching in. I think its absolutely crucial to not only opt for a physical attacker, but one who also brings with it a resistance to Mamoswine.

Please forgive any grammar and spelling mistakes, this was posted from my iPhone.

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Pardon me but i don't really understand your stance. We already have one dedicated physical attacker, one dedicated special attacker, and one that can go mixed. i think maybe you forgot that meloetta can change formes, because it's not pursuit weak at all in Step Form. Latios would be our first pursuit weak Pokemon, and it absolutely eats the most common pursuiter, Scizor. I can understand why you'd find having another pokemon weak to Mamoswine to be threatening but remember, almost all of Team 1 is faster than mamo and can dispatch it with an SE move - that ice shard isn't quite as powerful as you think it is. Right now i think Rotom is entirely more worrisome and should be countered


ps: i don't know if it's not allowed to say this but if latios won i was planning on suggesting MoxieCross which would basically fix every issue you have with it.

Pwnemon said:

Pardon me but i don't really understand your stance. We already have one dedicated physical attacker, one dedicated special attacker, and one that can go mixed. i think maybe you forgot that meloetta can change formes, because it's not pursuit weak at all in Step Form. Latios would be our first pursuit weak Pokemon, and it absolutely eats the most common pursuiter, Scizor. I can understand why you'd find having another pokemon weak to Mamoswine to be threatening but remember, almost all of Team 1 is faster than mamo and can dispatch it with an SE move - that ice shard isn't quite as powerful as you think it is. Right now i think Rotom is entirely more worrisome and should be countered


ps: i don't know if it's not allowed to say this but if latios won i was planning on suggesting MoxieCross which would basically fix every issue you have with it.

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Let me explain then. We have one dedicated physical attacker and hes never going to be allowed to perform a sweep, hes a wallbreaker and potential revenge killer. Yes, Meloetta has her Step forme to offer some physical presence, but more often than not it is going to find itself trying to fire off its special attacks, only switching go Step forme to punch a hole in something with Close Combat (after which it should be switching out due to the negative defenses). So hopefully you see what im trying to get at: we need something physical that can actually sweep. An extra special attacker would leave us with a total of 5 physical attacks; 4 unique attacking types at that.

I really think you are underestimating the difficulties thay Mamoswine causes. Ice Shard almost always 2HKOs the things it needs to after SR (including Latios). EdgeQuake plus Ice STAB makes this one Pokemon that very few teams can actually switch into safely repeatedly. This is not one of those teams.

Yes, it can switch into Step forme to remove it Pursuit weakness which I did forget, but it is a weakness nonetheless whch I dont think we should be quick to forget.

Lol, MoxieCross and Latios.

The only real things I don't like about Latios are its weaknesses to Mamoswine and inability to switch into Celebi safely (if you get paralyzed, you're pretty much dead weight)

As for Kabutops, it's weak to celebi, mamoswine, and rotom-w: all who outspeed and can OHKO. Also, if you get burned by Heatran, you're pretty dead too.

While I like Latios as an anti-Rotom-W mon, I worry that it amplifies our weakness to Mamoswine. It's got some decent type synergy with our team, especially if we add Infernape - perhaps we can choose SRNape as pick 4 and Latios as pick 5?

Ithilanor said:

While I like Latios as an anti-Rotom-W mon, I worry that it amplifies our weakness to Mamoswine. It's got some decent type synergy with our team, especially if we add Infernape - perhaps we can choose SRNape as pick 4 and Latios as pick 5?

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If we're going to be picking Latios then I suggest something that counters Mamoswine more head-on instead of just checking it for the 5th slot. 'Nape can't switch into EQ at all; and if it's our best answer, the switch will be obvious and we it'll get nailed.

ClubbingSealCub said:

If we're going to be picking Latios then I suggest something that counters Mamoswine more head-on instead of just checking it for the 5th slot. 'Nape can't switch into EQ at all; and if it's our best answer, the switch will be obvious and we it'll get nailed.

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I totally agree and this is what I've been trying to get at. Mamoswine is probably the biggest threat at the moment, and needs to be addressed first before we go on with anything else. A solid check that also doesnt detract from the teams win condition is something we have to find. once we've got most of Team 2s Pokemon checked and have an answer to everything, that is when I'd feel more comfortable with picking Lati@s.

ClubbingSealCub said:

If we're going to be picking Latios then I suggest something that counters Mamoswine more head-on instead of just checking it for the 5th slot. 'Nape can't switch into EQ at all; and if it's our best answer, the switch will be obvious and we it'll get nailed.

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The only true "counter" to Mamoswine that fits well into an offensive team is Rotom-W (if we forget for a second Air Balloon users), so unless we plan to use one (giving Celebi a huge free set-up occasion), we're just better to rely on multiple checks (like Infernape) to Mamoswine to handle it, rather than to have a single, failproof counter. Doing that will require us to pick some Skarmory or Bronzong that are just out of place.

ClubbingSealCub said:

If we're going to be picking Latios then I suggest something that counters Mamoswine more head-on instead of just checking it for the 5th slot. 'Nape can't switch into EQ at all; and if it's our best answer, the switch will be obvious and we it'll get nailed.

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PapaBearAds said:

I totally agree and this is what I've been trying to get at. Mamoswine is probably the biggest threat at the moment, and needs to be addressed first before we go on with anything else. A solid check that also doesnt detract from the teams win condition is something we have to find. once we've got most of Team 2s Pokemon checked and have an answer to everything, that is when I'd feel more comfortable with picking Lati@s.

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Gotcha. What do you think is a good check for Mamoswine that isn't something completely defensive like Forry or Ferrothorn, then? Breloom is pretty fragile as well; I suppose we could go with Scizor, but he gets owned by CeleTran and Rotom...

EDIT:

ganj4lF said:

The only true "counter" to Mamoswine that fits well into an offensive team is Rotom-W (if we forget for a second Air Balloon users), so unless we plan to use one (giving Celebi a huge free set-up occasion), we're just better to rely on multiple checks (like Infernape) to Mamoswine to handle it, rather than to have a single, failproof counter. Doing that will require us to pick some Skarmory or Bronzong that are just out of place.

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This makes sense to me. I say we go with Infernape as #4, and make sure at least one of our 5th and 6th picks can check Mamo.

ganj4lF said:

The only true "counter" to Mamoswine that fits well into an offensive team is Rotom-W (if we forget for a second Air Balloon users), so unless we plan to use one (giving Celebi a huge free set-up occasion), we're just better to rely on multiple checks (like Infernape) to Mamoswine to handle it, rather than to have a single, failproof counter. Doing that will require us to pick some Skarmory or Bronzong that are just out of place.

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This is what I meant - I prefer to pick 2 relatively solid checks (Such as SR 'Nape and Scizor; who provide great coverage, rocks, u-turns and priority) instead of just picking Bronzong or something and flat-out raping our momentum.

Gyarados is one Pokemon Mamoswine rarely beats 1v1. If running Intimadate its a straight up win. Neutral damage from Ice, immunity to Ground. His only weakness is Stone Edge, which is an unreliable move at the best of times. If Gyara manages to get one DD under his belt the only thing Mamo can do is switch to something that can take a hit (Rotom is the only one, and is still 2hkod) or fire off an Ice Shard before getting itself knocked out.

It is really hard to counter Mamoswine due to his ability, impressive coverage and even more impressive Attacking stats. The best we can really do is either pick two Pokemon that form a nice core together and between them handle Mamo, or one defensive 'Mon that detracts from the teams purpose. Also, STAB Priority users such as Breloom and Scizor also put the hurting on Mamo, too.

Chiming in to say that Scizor also dead counters Mamoswine. CB BP is an OHKO, while Ice Shard does so little I'm not even going to say it.

But when is it ever good to just throw in a pokemon and say, 'here, the rest of your team is weak to something you're good at killing, welcome to the group'. As a 'team', the pokemon should be working together to take Mamo down. We just need a pokemon that can take an attack and cripple it afterwards. Then, we can let the rest of the team handle it.

Also, I don't see why Mamoswine is such a threat; Metagross handles it easily, and Meoetta too if it's in Piruette form beforehand. I think Rotom-W proves as more of a problem right now.

Electrolyte said:

Also, I don't see why Mamoswine is such a threat; Metagross handles it easily, and Meoetta too if it's in Piruette form beforehand. I think Rotom-W proves as more of a problem right now.

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Metagross gets KO'ed by EQ without stealth rock and Bullet Punch is only a 6% chance to KO after stealth rocks. Can't Meteor Mash because it will get outsped =/

EDIT: Holy jesus why did I even suggest Metagross >_<

yeah meta is a terrible pokemon i don't really get why people voted it in

on second thought, infernape would be a better choice than heracross for the teamslot as although it's not able to switch into Mamo as easily it can switch moves and avoid burn from Heatran. Latios/Infernape 2012

Electrolyte said:

As for Kabutops, it's weak to celebi, mamoswine, and rotom-w: all who outspeed and can OHKO. Also, if you get burned by Heatran, you're pretty dead too.

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Excellent points. The main reason I posted it was because I noticed a couple of people talking about Stealth Rocks and Spinning, and because there have already been a host of great suggestions. Kabutops is one of the only pokemon that can do both while maintaining offensive pressure, so I figured it would be reasonable to post it to fill that role.

As others have said we don't want to end up being (practically) forced into taking a Spinner/Stealth Rocker for our last slot. Besides, we pretty much want a spinner so that Thundurus isn't taking too much damage anyway.

EDIT:

ClubbingSealCub said:

Metagross gets KO'ed by EQ without stealth rock and Bullet Punch is only a 6% chance to KO after stealth rocks. Can't Meteor Mash because it will get outsped =/

EDIT: Holy jesus why did I even suggest Metagross >_<

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Suddenly I'm glad it wasn't me xD
But seriously, we just weren't thinking. On paper, Meta was an excellent pick, considering the other pokemon on our team and the pokemon we were trying to preemtively counter (Latias). Keep in mind that T2 has yet to choose a particularly reliable Thundurus-T counter so, in that respect, it did its job.

Politoed @ Choice Specs
Trait: Drizzle
188 Hp / 252 SpAtt / 68 Spe
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
-Surf
-Hidden Power (Grass)
-Ice Beam
-Focus Blast

SpecsToed has really dropped in usage recently, because due to the commonality of weather wars, people have opted for more bulky sets. However, he remains a very hard set to deal with. Here are some calcs to show you his raw power:
-Politoed's Surf vs Heatran: 107.53 - 126.75%
-Politoed's Surf vs Mamoswine: 248.61 - 293.37%
-Politoed's Ice Beam vs Celebi: 74.92 - 88.45%
-Politoed's HP Grass vs Rotom-W: 76.03 - 90.08%
-Politoed's HP Grass vs Mamoswine: 81.76 - 96.68%
-Politoed's Ice Beam vs Mamoswine: 55.24 - 65.19%

This set completely shuts down Heatran (the 68 Spe investment means it is outsped), all he can do is attempt a Roar or switch out, which is what makes this set so great. I can cripple or KO the switch and then switch out before Politoed gets hurt. Now, you might be thinking But then Rotom-W can come in and hit hard with Volt-Turn or Thunderbolt, or predict the switch with Hydro Pump or Trick. Let me explain what happens in those situations.
Volt-Switch: Doesn't KO Politoed or allows Thundurus-T a free switch and set up
Thunderbolt: Same as Volt-Switch
Trick: Politoed now outspeeds, if we predicted right and hit with HP Grass, or if not, Thundurus-T now has a Choice Scarf Thunder that can KO with a small amount of prior damage (such as that from the move we used instead of HP Grass on the switch)
Hydro Pump: Thundurus-T doesnt survive this one, however Politoed is only 2HKOed and can retaliate with with a HP Grass to finish it off (assuming good prediction). This is the most dangerous move he could make, but is easily remedied with team support.

Now, what if he switches in Celebi instead. Well, maybe you got lucky and hit Ice Beam, but most of the time, Celebi will come in on HP Grass or Surf. Nows your chance to make Metagross useful - Pursuit and Meteor Mash both do very nice damage, while Hidden Power Fire is now a 4HKO due to the rain.

Other than raw power and some bulk, Politoed also bring Rain. Here's a list of benefits that Rain brings to the team at this moment:
-100% accuracy Thunder on Thundurus-T and Meoletta
-Reduction in fire weakness for Metagross
-30% and 60% chance to paralyze on Thundurus-T and Meoletta's Thunder, respectively.

As a final note, I noticed many other people were hesitant of putting Politoed in because the other team could pick a Kingdra, Gastrodon, or other counter to rain. But team 1 was graced with the last pick, and can therefore outpick almost any Pokemon they throw at us.

If we want a Pokemon that can handle Rotom-W and Celebi without being Mamo weak, then why not run SubRoost Kyurem?

ginganinja said:

Kyurem @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
52 HP / 220 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
-Ice Beam
-Substitute
-Earth Power
-Roost

The set could prolly be changed, but at this stage, I quite like Kyurem, especially since it handles a lot of Team #2. Sure, its weak to Stealth Rock, on the other hand, it pisses off Rotom W, discouraging it from spamming Hydro Pump via Pressure (and if it Volt Switchs Thundurus-T threatens to switch in for free and kill something. It threatens Celebi and Heatran with Ice Beam and Earth Power, and its not weak to Ice Shard, which frustrates Mamoswine. Like I said, there might be a better set out there, but I like Kyurem as a pokemon at this moment since it threatens much of Team #2.

I don't actually like Politoed as much, since Team #2 has 2 slots left, and if we pick Politoed, then they add Kingdra, and then Team #1 is not in a solid position. Maybe later, certainly, but I would want to limit Team #2's chances at counter teaming us if we pick Politoed now.

Im going to be afk for the next 4-5 days so I won't be posting as much (sorry for that) but ill try and weigh in when I can.

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Kyurem really is better for this slot than Latios because it wrecks all of Team 2's mons that Latios does without being easily picked off by Mamoswine. Also Pressure stalls Stone Edges to make it harder to check Thundurus.
Haven't seen many comments on Kyurem on this page so I guess it would be best to bring it up again?

Also: 244 Speed EVs lets you outspeed the Celebi set, though I have a feeling speed creeping is in bad taste.

prolly because I posted the exact same set on the previous page -_-