Gothitelle Suspect Discussion (Votes: post #24)

While the round has not officially ended, Gothitelle has been such a controversial suspect as of late that we have decided to give it a quickban vote. This will also help us determine what you guys think of Gothitelle, and whether or not it will be allowed in the RU Open.

What you're expected to do in this thread:

1. Post which sets you used in the round and what you found good about it, what beat it, etc.

2. Discuss Gothitelle's place in the tier, has the metagame adapted properly to it? Does it break the metagame? What counters are there to Gothitelle?

3. All Council members are expected to post their thoughts on, experiences using, and experiences against Gothitelle in this thread.

4. The Council should also figure out a time when they can get on IRC to have a dedicated discussion on the suspects. When decided, this discussion time will be edited into this post, and all council members should do their damnedest to participate.

21:03 SilentVerse post in http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3471352 tho kk


The only Gothitelle set that I tried out for about 15 battles was the Choice Scarf set.

I simply ran:

Gothitelle @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Psychic
- Psyshock
- Trick

Since I used a full coverage Scarf set in OU, I knew how lack luster it was to use a 289 Special attack poke. I figured I'd cut my losses and use it for it's best agility: raping the living hell out of Cryogonal with Psyshock. I used dual Psyshic moves because Psyshic will still generally hit most things harder. You'd notice a lack of HPFire because when you switch in on Ferroseed and use Trick, it's pretty much done with. It's either locked into SR and you can 16HKO it with Psyshic or it's using Gyro Ball and you have a very tasty set up bait once you get out of there but either way the Ferror is worthless. Hidden Power Ice was just to get Sceptile, which you might as well since that's the last thing you're outspeeding. Still weak as hell vs Tangrowth though.



However in roughly 70~ RU battles, I probably came across Gothitelle myself only a handful of times. About half of them was Specs which I didn't mind too much. The second it used a non STAB move (which was a lot), I'd set up shop with SD Kabutops (HPFire), Spikestack or play a few mind games with Accelgor (Energy Ball) or dick around with Nidoqueen (Thunderbolt). Of course, I avoided using anything close to stall like the plague so it never bothered me. The one or two other times Gothitelle was a support set and I just kind of sat there being bored and being a dick pressing the inactive button because I was bored, but you handle those kind of teams just the same as you would a dual screen pixie team. For those who do like using more stall and balanced teams, I could see how it would be -annoying- to face but as an avid OU player, just adapt.

People complain that it makes things like Klinklang and Crawdaunt unstoppable but...there they're...not...exactly....unstoppable...although I'm biased considering the teams I mostly see run Entei and Sceptile, which for w/e reason completely harasses those two sweepers, Gothitelle or not. I think Gothitelle should be allowed to stay. Look, if you're going to be using stall and getting butthurt over it, how is it any different than Wynaut trapping something and systematically killing off their main offensive stars anyways? I can still easily trap a Ferroseed/Roselia/filler and proceed to Tickle Pursuit it. And if you were running full stall anyways, you probably already had Spiritomb (most pure hard counter), or at least a Drapion/Skuntank for Tspike/Rotom removing purposes.

AT THE VERY LEAST, let's let Gothitelle get through for the whole round instead of quickbanning it.

Aeroblacktyl said:

For those who do like using more stall and balanced teams, I could see how it would be -annoying- to face but as an avid OU player, just adapt.

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I really don't understand this quote, like at all. You say that stall and balanced teams need to adapt. But how do you adapt to something that is able to trap and kill 5/6 mons on my stall team. Having to run shed shell on those mons is just absurd especially since one of them uses eviolite. And unlike offense where you can afford to have a mon die and still be able to run your offense. In stall every mon has an important role that is necessary to be able to win and stall out ur opponent. Gothitelle doesnt make stall "annoying" to face it makes stall unviable because unlike other poke u cant just 'hard counter' gothitelle when it can trap half of your team and kill them. Even for defensive teams/semi-stall teams they are near impossible to do because of gothitelle's ability to get rid of certain counters for a poke to sweep.

I do believe that Gothitelle deserves a quick-ban for it's ability to make multiple play styles unviable and basically limiting team building as a whole.

I don't understand any of part of your post. In OU when we adapt, we play better, as opposed to being a little bitch.

Jeeze genius, if you suspect your Roselia is about to get trapped, why don't you double switch to your Escav or Spiritomb...god forbid having to think ahead and being mentally stimulated in Pokemon instead of just mindlessly picking each wall that resists the current active Pokemon.

Or if only 'being able to adapt' means using something else entirely. If every single stall team is bullshit weak to Gothitelle then maybe that's a telling sign that stall needs to diversify. Off the top of my head why won't people get creative and building a stall team that in fact takes advantage of the usage of Gothitelle. For example, when shit got stall in DP OU, I started using Dual Screen stall. Or having a trump card in BW OU with one total random sweeper that didn't fit in my Sun stall that completely throws other teams off because of their mentality in breaking down the other 5.

If you want to play checkers instead of chess maybe you should go play TCG.

P.S. if your stall team can't beat Gothitelle, it's probably getting dismantled by Wynaut anyways.

Ok aeroblacktyl, you say the solution is double switching and outpredicting your opponent. But have u seem to forget about voltturn combo? Cause I think EVERY ru stall team loses to voltturn+gothitelle even if u carry spiritomb or escavalier (who offers next to 0 support to your stall team besides type coverage lol). You say stall needs to 'diversify' so they can handle gothitelle but stall CAN'T deal with gothitelle cause goth can dismantle your stall team by simply eliminating at least 1 if not more from your team. And if goth eliminates your 1 poke that can handle a certain threat and they have that threat then you pratically lose right there. I don't see how a stall team can beat gothitelle if goth can get free switches via voltturn.

Also please stop comparing OU to ru cause they are nothing alike. Cause in ru u don't have pokes that can do multiple things for your team like in ou. Also saying wynaut beats stall just like gothitelle is just such a joke I REALLY hope youwere joking about that statement.

Your team is as obsolete as your ability to play Pokemon if it's weak to RU VoltTurn. This isn't OU after all, you said it yourself. As Gothitelle has been released not even 2 weeks, your complaints based on outdated and uninspiring half-ass creation of a stall team does not mean it deserves a quick ban. This isn't to say Gothitelle is broken or not but seeing as how you choose to ignorant ignore anything else that has been said, build a new fucking team instead of complaining that your mindless BS doesn't work anymore. Which also reverts back to my original point that Gothitelle should survive the rest of the round before any testing instead of pussy banning. But of course if you want things handed to you easily, please, NU subforum is about 3 centimeters down.


And if you're telling me I can't just Wynaut your Roselia on a predicted Rest and proceed to Tickle/Pursuit fuck it...well...it's okay I know some people who can't play some metagames but are really good at random rated battles.

Lol. How long have you played RU? What like a week maybe 2? You seriously are one ignorant guy, Jesus. First off, there was something called the Spooky ManoRU where it was specifically meant for testing shadow tag gothitelle a week before ST goth was released. So we have done our fair share of testing. And considering you have never even seen my stall team you really have 0 right to comment on how good it is lol. Please come on #rarelyused to discuss more instead of commenting on stuff you know hardly about. Playing against people on PS that use gothitelle is crap cause PS has a terrible playerbase that don't know what there doing.

P.S. Roselia isn't on my stall team so idk why the fuck u keep using it in your examples.

Aeroblacktyl said:

But of course if you want things handed to you easily, please, NU subforum is about 3 centimeters down.

Click to expand...

Woah woah, we haven't even suspected Gothitelle.

To make this post somewhat relevant I haven't played too much RU (I've been laddering a bit the last few days, played around 50 matches) and I haven't found Gothitelle overwhelming. I agree with Aeroblacktyl, don't quickbna, give this thing a full round and adapt.

Yeah, Gothitelle is pretty retarded. Notice how I'm not even using the word "broken" here, because that would be an understatement to how completely retarded it is. It makes using anything but offense bad, and a metagame where only offense is viable is most certainly an unhealthy metagame. Gothitelle can trap and kill pretty much everything on a common stall team. The Choice Specs set is the best for this job, since between Psyshock, Thunderbolt, and HP Fire, you can beat pretty much every wall in the tier. Slowking, Roselia, Cryogonal; all these top-tier special walls can't touch Gothitelle. The fact that you're forced to carry a Pursuit user is another huge part of the problem. There are really only three common Pursuit users in RU: Spiritomb, Escavalier, and Drapion. Having to run one of these three on every team you make is stupid, and is pretty much what overcentralization is about. Escavalier isn't even foolproof to Choice Specs set, because even if you do double switch to it, you get wrecked by HP Fire. You can't play around Gothitelle, since it's too bulky and powerful to be beaten by anything on a common stall team, since you can't switch.

Gothitelle paired with VoltTurn is ridiculously broken, since there's literally no way around it. You basically get something with U-turn or Volt Switch in against a stall team, and it's a guaranteed KO. There is no need for prediction with Gothitelle. You come in, you 2HKO something. It's that simple. Once again, the fact that you have to use Spiritomb or Drapion on every team to stop it at one kill is retarded.

While SubCM isn't necessarily the best Gothitelle set, it's much more retarded than the Specs set. It basically gets three kills with the help of Memento spam (which is pretty retarded in itself), and can bypass even Drapion and Spiritomb. You just simply can't stop it from getting up to +6. It's incredibly simple to get something to -4 with Whimsicott and Diglett, and then Gothitelle sets up for free and destroys your entire team. Memento spam dominates the ladder, and it's such a ridiculously retarded and easy-to-use strategy all because of Gothitelle.

You can't really compare Dugtrio to Gothitelle, since Dugtrio is so weak. Only Pokemon that are especially prone to being picked off by Dugtrio, such as Tyranitar, would even consider throwing on a Shed Shell. Dugtrio can't even 2HKO Blissey with Earthquake. The problem with Gothitelle is that everything is especially prone to it, so you'd have to stick a Shed Shell on literally everything, which is obviously stupid for a healthy metagame. This isn't even taking into account that the two best defensive Spikers both use Eviolite. Others, like Slowking, can't afford to give up Leftovers, since they need the extra HP to check Moltres and Nidoqueen better. Others, like Lanturn, have no form of recovery otherwise. And then there's things like Cryogonal, which is probably the most important thing on your team to keep alive in a lot of battles, and has a lot of pressure since it has to take on Pursuit users as well as top specially attacking threats.

It wouldn't be absurd to run 6 Shed Shell Pokemon on a stall team just to "adapt". Or 5 Shed Shell Pokemon and Choice Band Spiritomb. This is really a no-brainer to me, why would we even want to keep Gothitelle in the tier? There's literally no benefit to it if we want a healthy metagame.

Nothing I say is directed at any specific person(s), so don't be offended lol

Aeroblacktyl said:

Or if only 'being able to adapt' means using something else entirely. If every single stall team is bullshit weak to Gothitelle then maybe that's a telling sign that stall needs to diversify. Off the top of my head why won't people get creative and building a stall team that in fact takes advantage of the usage of Gothitelle. For example, when shit got stall in DP OU, I started using Dual Screen stall. Or having a trump card in BW OU with one total random sweeper that didn't fit in my Sun stall that completely throws other teams off because of their mentality in breaking down the other 5.

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I'm a huge fan of this mentality. Honestly, I don't know why this isn't always the case when any tier is considering banning anything. Why in the world is there any legitimate reason to ban something if you haven't actually tried to adapt your teams to it? I've played a good 50-60 matches on the ladder over various alts the last few days, both using Gothitelle and not using Gothitelle. Firstly, I didn't see very many opposing Goth, at all. Maybe I'm laddering at the ~wrong times~ but how can something be declared broken if it isn't even being tested on the ladder? How do you know if your team can deal with it if no one's using it? Does that make it just an 'underused threat that could potentially 6-0 your old stall team' and you want to get rid of it to avoid having to accommodate for such a threat?

If your team is susceptible to VoltTurn + Gothitelle, what's preventing you from running Shed Shell on those important walls and then going to a Pursuit user to rid yourself of Gothitelle? Why would this be unviable? Why hasn't anyone apparently tried it yet? Ok, yes, Gothitelle discourages Roselia usage as it's complete set-up bait. I know it's not the same because it doesn't have Shadow Tag, but Ferrothorn discourages Kingdra usage in OU just the same. People know what they're getting into when they use Kingdra in OU, but why is this not applicable to Roselia or whatever else people are complaining about? Hint: you don't have to use Roselia to have a good team.

I guess what I'm saying is that I despise the idea of quickbans. Why in the world are we banning something that hasn't been legitimately tested or even attempted to work around (and no, that one NUgget Bridge-esque challenge thing doesn't count...)?

Aeroblacktyl said:

AT THE VERY LEAST, let's let Gothitelle get through for the whole round instead of quickbanning it.

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^ that, all the way. If it's still considered broken at the end of the round, ok, that's cool. At least people actually suspected it and tested it and at least tried to adapt to it. I'm just saying that it hasn't been tested nearly enough at this point and no one can honestly say "yes I have tried everything and Gothitelle is still broken!!".

edit: merry 1.5k

Having played only heavy offense this round and generally being a useless stall player, I haven't had the worst of gothitelle, in fact I've barely seen it on the ladder at all tbh, the NU ladder is a different matter, though. But yeah, though not all the arguments presented here have been top notch, I think gothitelle at least deserves to stay for the rest of the round.

Adapting is all part of the game IMO. Sure, it's tough to be stall in RU (it never was easy), but if EVERY member of your team is trappable by gothitelle, I think it's quite clear there's an issue. I think we also need to consider how gothitelle can be exploited. While running shed shell on everything in your team is over the top, putting it on one crucial wall who has no way of touching gothitelle and packing something that can exploit it (look at CM uxie or something like that) or just packing a set that can hurt gothitelle and still be effective (sleep powder bulky attacker roselia anyone?) I think could be a huge step toward lowering its effectiveness.

Of course, if this doesn't work at all and gothitelle still is "completely broken", then I guess bans could be considered, but I think adaptation, at least on stall's side, needs to be considered here.

which gothitelle set is the one that is holding defensive builds back? in my opinion, only calm mind gothitelle stands out as potentially broken in the sense that it could hold team-building back substantially. however, i have only run into it twice and have not had any issues as of yet. this means ill probably be talking primarily about the choice sets.

its important to note that gothitelle is not wobbuffet. after gothitelle successfully traps one pkmn, it cannot prevent set-up with encore. after a ko, all gothitelle has at its disposal is a choice-locked stab move which has numerous immunities in the tier, or a weak thunderbolt/hidden power. crawdaunt, swords dance drapion, klinklang and others are just waiting to use gothitelle as an opportunity to set-up and do some damage.

another scenario is gothitelle trapping a pokemon. spiritomb / drapion / absol / whoever switches in. what happens next is pretty clear. its not uncommon for stall teams to have pursuit users in the first place. many have already adapted to account for the powerful ghosts, strong spikers and lack of spinners already, by placing extra emphasis on gaining the advantage in the hazards battle, through using pursuit.

lets face it, defensive teams have not exactly been dominant pre-gothitelle anyway. powerful threats like nidoqueen and moltres have already hindered it quite substantially. sure, gothitelle prevents the use of some pokemon like roselia and ferroseed but its not like they can dish back much damage anyway. the number of pkmn that can set-up in relative comfort against both of them is huge, but obviously gothitelle is a different can of worms.

as for the memento strategies, you do have team preview at your disposal. after seeing a diglett and whimsicott, im sure you can identify what strategy your opponent has planned. there are a number of moves you can make to ensure you dont get swept by gothitelle. the most common move could simply be switching to something like volt switch rotom-c or a u-turner such as braviary. i would also like to see gothitelle try to boost against a -4 cb escavalier (2hkoes even max/max+ gothitelle) or swords dance drapion. you could also switch to a whirlwind/roar user right?

i do think that it is probable that gothitelle will have a negative impact on this tier, but i think it is important to wait in order to see whether it does turn out to be an eventuality and that gothitelle is broken. so, yes, i do not believe a quick ban is in order

I guess I'll post because I'm expected to.

For me, Gothitelle can run any of the sets already mentioned; it just depends on your team and what you would like to take out. Because of this and its diverse movepool and unique stats, Gothitelle will never really fail to get a KO. I think at this point I've played around 75 matches with Gothitelle, and when I didn't KO at least one Pokemon, it was because something else on my team swept the opponent and I didn't need it. I never really used Gothitelle for death fodder, because it usually was always able to trap at least one Pokemon which helped me get the win. Not sure if that constitutes for Gothitelle being banworthy, as it usually dies afterwards either to being Pursuit trapped or because it took around 40-60% from something in the process of KOing a foe.

As for the stall argument, stall has Pokemon that can deal with it, even the SubCM set. Gothitelle is going to be forced to switch out, which will rack up entry hazard damage and regular damage from attacks. Stall can also run its own Gothitelle (which conveniently helps takes care of Nidoqueen) and double switch to it to prevent the opposing Gothitelle's Shadow Tag from working, if that makes sense. However, there is no doubt that Gothitelle will always get AT LEAST one KO against stall. However, (repetition, kill me) Gothitelle will always get a KO against offense too, if played correctly. It just hurts stall more in the sense that each Pokemon on a stall team plays a huge role, and losing one Pokemon often opens up a hole to an opposing threat.

Do I think Gothitelle is broken? Not sure, but leaning towards no. Gothitelle drastically changes the metagame and it'll take much more time to adapt (which is why I think we are banning it in the RU Open), but if it takes too long, that will probably mean that it's banworthy. I'll follow up later~

I played against a SubCMind Gothi, and it swept my entire team. I forget the exact way that it happened, but... *shivers* I was running a TR team, though, so I didn't have any fast sweepers once TR ran out, so maybe Gothitelle will ruin a large part of the metagame in Trick Room. Food for thought, certainly.

Just as a heads up, the vote will definitely take place sometime before the 29th (I'm thinking on the 26th-27th actually), so if you have something to say about Gothitelle, now's the time to say it!

Okay so i've been using Gothitelle quite a bit, and i was a manor head etc. On both of my ladder teams, I used Specs Gothitelle, which was an awesome set for removing anything that may have been annoying Defensively, and as a one time crutch to remove annoying offensive ppokemon like Nidoqueen, Moltres (kinda), Kabutops, Escavalier, Manectric not locked into Volt Switch and others.

Gothitelle @ Choice Specs
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Trick
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]

I use this set in conjunction with Klinklang to remove Steelix and some other bulky physical walls in order for Klinklang to get a clean sweep. Using a siple VoltTurn strategy, Gothitelle gets a good number of oppurtunities to catch slower pokemon it can hit super effectively on defensive teams. Roselia, Ferroseed, Steelix, Tangrowth, Poliwrath, and Escavalier are all good examples of something that Gothitelle can trap after a U-turn / Volt Switch.

However, my problem with Gothitelle lies in facing fast paced offensive teams. Last round we saw a large shift in the RU metagame, and stall died out and offense came to thrive, especially with the additions of Escavalier and Nidoqueen. Nidoqueen made it difficult to use slower pokemon, and Goth just happens to be one of those pokemon unless you scarf it. While playing against offensive teams, I generally save Goth for one trap oppurtunity and generally have to do so using a double switch or a revenge kill. Goth can trap Nidoqueen after Stealth Rock, but cannot switch in. I suppose you can use the Scarf set, but it is very weak, and is even more so Pursuit fodder than Specs.

Speaking of Pursuit, I find myself foregoing a Pursuiter just because i do not find Goth ridiculously dangerous, in fact every member of my team can easily 2HKO it and is faster, or can Volt Switch out. Pursuit does trouble Gothitelle though, especially the omnipresent Choice Banded Spiritomb as well as CB Escavalier (if Goth isn't locked into HP Fire), or Absol.

Although I certainly do not think Goth is healthy for the metagame with the way it ensures kills, I do think that we were already semi adjusted in the sense that Nidoqueen already made our metagame fast paced. So is it broken? Maybe. Am I sure yet? No, but leaning towards no.

Also, Memento teams with Whimsi/Diglett + CM Goth are annoying, but as other mentions, Nintendo gave us team preview and U-turn/Volt Switch~

Like a few of the other people here: I have played somewhere between 50 and 75 RU matches with Gothitelle since its release (one side or the other), so this is not THE BEST OPINION EVER by any means.

I have seen Gothitelle and, to be honest, I haven't been impressed. I understand its utility and I understand that there are certain situations where it can certainly be a nuisance. I have yet to personally encounter one of these situations. This may be because I never run full-stall teams in the lower tiers, so even if it wants to come in and trap me I am often done with whatever they wanted to trap. Or, because I didn't let my psychic check go down when I saw goth in the team preview.
Spiritomb does a number on gothitelle.


The scarf set often seems to lack real oomph, even when it comes in it usually has to take a hit while it nets a 2hko, and the specs set is abysmally slow. The CM set is way too situational and, unless people only use full stall teams, is the least useful set available right now (opinion).

Either way, the quickban voting seems like a rash decision and I strongly advise that we wait it out and see where things go. If it ruins the meta, by all means go smack that emo-chick with a banhammer, but first: give it some time. I think you'll find it isn't even that much of a problem, but we won't know if we don't give things a little time to adjust.

Gothitelle is fine in RU imo. The most effective set I have seen is the one august posted, as it works against stall and offense alike and gets AT LEAST 1 kill per game. However, it's not like Gothitelle is on like Wobbuffett's level of bulk or anything; it's not that hard to take down. Also, while the CM set may be able to set up on many Pokemon, Pokemon such as Spiritomb just completely troll it and can knock it out easily. A Memento + Calm Mind strategy also doesn't make it broken due to the aforementioned reason combined with the fact that there are so many Volt Switchers and U-Turners in RU. Stall can adapt to play Gothitelle; Spiritomb is a good choice for most teams anyway, so not like it's a major issue. Overall, Gothitelle is a fine Pokemon for the RU metagame :)

Finally encountered a few of those Memento spam teams. And well, easiest piece of shit deal with ever. When the opponent suicide half their teams at an attempt to sweep with a base 65 speed Poke who'll have coverage problems, well it doesn't take much to win.

Gothitelle seems to be more and more underwhelming as longer as the round goes on. It's also running to run into them while running a Trick Room team. Cursed to be way too fast to be annoying, and way too weak to be effective.

"Jeeze genius, if you suspect your Roselia is about to get trapped, why don't you double switch to your Escav or Spiritomb...god forbid having to think ahead and being mentally stimulated in Pokemon instead of just mindlessly picking each wall that resists the current active Pokemon."

Haha this is exactly what I think.

Although I am not quite as unimpressed with Gothitelle as Aeroblactyl is, I do agree that it is a largely situational Pokemon that is certainly not banworthy due to its absolutely appalling power and speed. Honestly, its solid for taking out one Pokemon per game, and makes the meta a bit more offensive, but you could say that about Nidoqueen as well. Nidoqueen has actually influenced the meta much more than Gothitelle has imo.

I view Gothitelle's role as a more limited version of Wobbeffets in OU. Wobb can guarantee a kill on the revenge (like Goth can) while ensuring a safe set-up for a teammate. Gothitelle cannot give teammate's safe set up, but can revenge a more limited number of offensive pokes, not being limited to choice locked ones.

But finally, there is the fundamental problem that Goth can essentially only be used once per match. For example, Specs Goth can come in to revenge SubRoost Moltres, but doesn't manage to OHKO it, while Moltres can cut 50% of its health off with Fire Blast, and have a decent shot at a 2HKO if Moltres is at full health. Scarf Goth is even more laughable, as it can't even OHKO Offensive Moltres and takes, once again, 50% from Fire Blast.
So basically, Goth can come in and get a kill, but it will normally be so damaged from the kill that it will be unable to trap something again. This has been true in my experience, and has made Goth essentially worthless, at least in my plays, against offensive teams.
Against stall, he may be a bit more valuable (Idk I do not use stall teams in RU because, once again, Nidoqueen, and I haven't really seen that many the 20 or matches I used Gothitelle before getting sick of losing ladder points)

tl;dr
Don't ban Goth at all, but especially do not quick ban him

Before you start, I am going to say something sensible and not just rant at Oglemi for once.

I use Gothitelle. I agree that sometimes it's hard to stop, but only when it's set up with Substitute and Calm Mind. If stall teams are bad against Gothitelle, surely the meta could adapt to it, just as OU has done in the past when new abilities come in. Also, I have tried to use Gothitelle on multiple occasions a) without setting up and b) with a Pokemon you can't really set up against, and it just doesn't work. If you're considering banning Gothitelle, then consider banning physical Sceptile as well. It only takes two turns to set up and then it can beat almost anything except possibly Whimsicott and other, less effective means of incapacitating Sceptile with sleep or paralysis. It's the same with Gothitelle, which is defeated when Sub can't be set up in time for Toxic. Other options include Clear Smog and any physical Dark or Bug type. (Not Ghost, though, because most Gothitelle carry Shadow Ball)

I think Gothitelle should not be banned from RU.

Goth is an effective revenge killer. That is true. The problem is that it is simply too easy to force out. If, for example, I lose my Hitmonchan to a Psychic. I can simply bring in Spiritomb and revenge it with a Pursuit. This is a problem with all psychic types, mainly an issue of the typing. However, goth has it even WORSE because it is 99% of the time holding Choice items because it is neither fast enough or strong enough on its own. The fact that so many counters exist (Name any Dark-type) is the main reason I believe Gothitelle should NOT be banned.

But wait! What if you have the necessary support to knock out all the opponent's counters, and then you bring in your Gothitelle. Easy sweeping, right? Well, no. Look at it's base speed. 65. That is a lower Base speed than freaking Lanturn. Even if the opponent has no pursuit trappers/dark types, that is still pitifully easy to force out. Things like ScarfMortar, ScarfPhlosion, Rotom, Sucker Punch Hitmonlee, Scolipede and Accelgor are amongst the many things that can beat a Gothitelle, forcing a switch and giving up the initiative. As long as you hold on to ONE thing with a high base speed, Gothitelle will be repeatedly forced out.

Thus, Gothitelle should not be banned. It is not metagame-breaking. It is a mere annoyance, and a decent RU team should be able to break it.

All the votes are in, so here's what is the senate's thoughts on Gothitelle:

ShakeItUp said:

Gothitelle: Do not ban

Gothitelle is fine in RU. Choice Specs is definitely the most effective set, as it works against stall and offense alike and gets AT LEAST 1 kill per game. However, Nidoqueen could be put in much the same boat, and considering it stayed in the tier, I'm going to say Gothitelle should be here too. It's not like Gothitelle is on like Wobbuffett's level of bulk or anything; it's not that hard to take down. Also, while the CM set may be able to set up on many Pokemon, Pokemon such as Spiritomb just completely troll it and can knock it out easily. A strategy that some people have been talking about is a Memento team, which can allow Gothitelle to set up. However, this barely works at all. RU has so many Pokemon with Volt Switch and U-Turn that it's not that hard to destroy that type of team. Not to mention, the opponent could always just lead with their own Gothitelle, as two Shadow Tag Pokemon can escape each other. Also, Gothitelle is still pretty slow even at +6, meaning that a fast attacker + something like Spiritomb or Absol is enough to KO it even in the worst case scenario. Stall can adapt to defeat Gothitelle; it really is a fine presence in the metagame. Also, if one really wants to beat Gothitelle, just run Shed Shell on some Pokemon and Gothitelle will essentially be as useless as it was before its DW ability got released. Regardless, teams aren't forced to run Shed Shell at all, not by a long a shot. The presence of Pursuiters mean that Gothitelle can usually only get 1 kill per game anyway. Overall, Gothitelle should stay in RU.

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august said:

Last round of RU, we saw a pretty drastic change in the course of the metagame with the addition of Nidoqueen. The metagame became incredibly offensive and fast paced. With Gothitelle's addition, we expected to see another drastic change. However, the metagame seems to be just as it was after Nidoqueen's addition. Sure, Gothitelle and its Shadow Tag ability may "guarantee one kill per game", but in this fast paced metagame it is hard to bring Gothitelle in without it taking a hefty amount of damage. Choice Specs, arguably the most effective trapper set, lacks a lot of speed, and cannot outrun Kabutops, Moltres, or even Nidoqueen. Good bulk seems like it may make up for lackluster speed, but in this case it does not matter, as it is 2hko'd by all the threats i just listed. A Pursuit weakness means that after trapping a pokemon, Gothitelle can be trapped itself. There have been many arguments that Gothitelle "makes certain pokemon no longer viable". In this sense, then, isn't Gothitelle similar to Nidoqueen, a pokemon we almost unanimously decided to keep in the tier? Gothitelle is a fine addition to the RU metagame (for now, atleast) and makes it more interesting to play.

do not ban

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Omicron said:

Gothitelle: Do Not Ban

At first, I was really annoyed by Gothitelle because it really limited my ability to make a successful Stall team. However, during the Manor challenge, I found that the easiest way to deal with Gothitelle simply involved smart play, but also Volt-Turn. I employed this strategy to a great extent, and was almost never foiled by Gothitelle. Gothitelle is a major threat to stall teams, but I feel the need for further testing before I can decide on banning it. As for now, I do not think it should be banned, and should be tested for a longer period of time before considering a ban.

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Molk said:

Gothitelle


Vote: Do Not Ban

Reasoning: I dont feel like Gothitelle needs to be quickbanned from RU at the moment. From my experience playing with and against gothitelle both in general and in the actual RU tier, i haven't found it giving either me or my opponents much trouble. The best set for Gothitelle, in my opinion is Choice Specs. While this set is able to switch in on and KO many defensive pokemon, there are ways to play around it. Slowking, tangrowth, and amoonguss can run a shed shell to bypass shadow tag, while still having their 50% recovery moves and regenerator to keep them healthy. Steelix and lol munchlax can simply use roar to force gothitelle out for the time being. Pokemon such as Spiritomb, Drapion, and Cofagrigus outright beat gothitelle with their combination of high defensive stats, possible immunity to psychic, and super effective STAB. Poliwrath can use circle throw as gothitelle comes in to rack up damage on her and keep him safe from trapping. Uxie has u-turn etc. There are a few things that Gothitelle does trap no matter what. The three that i think of off the top of my head are ferroseed, roselia, and cryogonal. Ferroseed is bad and shouldnt really be used as much as it is. While roselia and cryogonal are pretty important. There is one thing that these three can do to get away from gothitelle, and thats double switching. From what i can see, one of the main reasons that people want gothitelle banned is because they dont want to play more carefully with certain pokemon, or innovate with moves and items (shed shell toxic garbodor as a spiker, for example). I personally feel gothitelle only punishes misplays, and if you can play and teambuild intelligently, gothitelle wont be as much of a problem as people think it is. As for gothitelle vs offense, gothitelle is slow, and despite having bulk can still be KOed by various moves in RU, also if the gothitelle is choice specs and uses a move your teammate resists, its a free kill or set up opprotunity for your team. Memento diglett teams can be annoying as well, but you have to remember that you have two pokemon that are there almost solely for memento, and one of them is a diglett. You only have half a team left to cover the remaining threats, and even then anything with u-turn or baton pass or hell even clear body or defiant can stop the strategy. Its like the old endeavor teams during the snover era imo. In the end, i think gothitelle should at least get a full round in RU, and a quickban should not be made.

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DittoCrow said:

Gothitelle: Do not ban

Despite the hype, Gothitelle actually struggles to do well in the metagame, as there are so many offensive teams that Gothitelle's poor Speed really hinders its ability to KO multiple things. Usually, Gothitelle will ALWAYS get one KO; however, that's about all it gets. It is usually 2HKOed by most offensive Pokemon, and it can't have both the power and the Speed to remove these offensive threats before Gothitelle itself is removed. VoltTurn, Pursuit trapping, and just offensive teams in general usually have no trouble dealing with Gothitelle, and they are all viable playstyles. While Gothitelle has a very easy time destroying stall and balance teams right now, it's too early to say whether or not those playstyles will be able to adapt. As time goes on, new Gothitelle sets will most likely be discovered, so this vote is too soon in my opinion; I haven't seen much use outside of the Calm Mind or Choice sets, and I do think that there are undiscovered sets that have much potential. While Gothitelle does make a gigantic impact on the metagame, it's too early to tell if it's broken or not, and right now, I don't think that it should be banned. Only time will tell—Gothitelle needs more time.

However, I would like to request that Gothitelle stays banned for the rest of the RU Open, as it drastically changes the metagame and I don't think that people are ready to change around their teams to use and deal with Gothitelle. It is still a very, very new threat, and I think that changing how the RU Open is played would be a negative effect.

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SilentVerse said:

Do Not Ban

Shadow Tag is such a game-changing ability, and even on something as average and mediocre as Gothitelle, it still allows him to make a very noticeable impact on the metagame. Gothitelle's ability to trap a Pokemon and KO it is extremely valuable; removing an opposing Cryogonal, for example, gives something like Sceptile or Rotom-C the opportunity to rip through the opposing team. Furthermore, removing something like Cryogonal, which is likely the opposing team's only Rapid Spinner, makes strategies such as Spikestacking extremely powerful. The two best Gothitelle sets are Choice Specs and Choice Scarf, the former of which is great for destroying walls, while the latter allows Gothitelle to revenge kill threats. The ability to pick and choose which Pokemon you want to destroy is a supportive ability that Gothitelle possesses which can let Pokemon like the aforementioned Sceptile sweep with ridiculous ease.

The main issue with Gothitelle, however, is that it must choose between power and speed. Choice Specs, despite its ability to absolutely destroy most walls, is slow and is difficult to use against offensive teams. Choice Scarf, on the other hand, is extremely weak, and is limited to revenge killing very frail threats. Even with its bulk, Gothitelle is unable to take many hits, and since it basically has to use a Choice item to have enough power or speed to effectively remove threats, it can be taken advantage of by a teammate that resists or is immune to the attack Gothitelle is locked into.

I am fairly undecided on whether or not Gothitelle itself is broken; while its ability to guarantee the removal of a Pokemon is very, very powerful, after it has removed a Pokemon, Gothitelle itself can be taken advantage of, and it usually only will manage to get one kill against a competent opponent. While Gothitelle is an incredibly powerful force in this current metagame, I feel that, considering how so few people are using it on the ladder, and how drastically Gothitelle shifts the metagame, we need more time to evaluate its effect. This is why I am voting Do Not Ban.

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Texas Cloverleaf said:

Gothitelle should not be quickbanned.

It is true that Gothitelle provides excellent support, removing Pokemon such as Roselia, Ferroseed and Cryogonal easily, as well as trapping some offensive Pokemon on a revenge kill. It is also true that Gothitelle is able to tailor its build based on what it needs to trap, whether it runs a Substitute set, a Scarf or a Scepcs set. However, it is also true that Gothitelle lacks particular power needed to immediately KO many Pokemon. More pressingly, Gothitelle has a distinctly subpar Speed stat, with leaves it hard pressed to sweep despite its respectable bulk.

The metagame has not had enough time to fully adjust to Gothitelle, nor has it been proven to concretely be overpowered to justify a quickban. Coming weeks may show that Memento teams may become broken, or that stall is completely unplayable. Conversely, Gothitelle may become just another threat. Only further testing will tell.

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So with 7 votes for Do Not Ban and 0 votes for ban, the senate has unanimously decided that Gothitelle will not be quickbanned.


I am going to be unsticking this thread, but feel free to continue to use it to discuss Gothitelle's place in the tier.

So pretty much everything I said. Good to know.