OU CCAT - Mark III (Laddering/Discussing - See Post #547)

Lavos Spawn's Virizion
alexwolf's Keldeo

TheReptile's Terrakion
alexwolf's Keldeo

Alright, I'm closing voting. Congratulations to user alexwolf and his Keldeo for winning this round's nominations!

Keldeo @ Leftovers
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Hidden Power Electric

alexwolf has gained 0.5 voting points, and his vote now counts for 1.5 votes!

Here are the teammembers so far:






Now it's time for more nominations. I'll give this three days for you guys to submit your ideas for member #3- to work with Keldeo and Gliscor. Here are some questions to ponder:

How does this pokemon work with Gliscor and Keldeo?
What can this pokemon bring to the table (options wise)
How many threats does this pokemon cover?
What weaknesses arise from using this pokemon?

Nominations will end on October 25th, ~10 PM -4GMT. Good luck everybody!

Volcarona@Life Orb
Timid 252 SpA/4 SpD/252 Spe
~Quiver Dance
~Fire Blast
~Bug Buzz
~HP Rock

Keldeo and Volcarona together can be a terrifying combo, being able to beat things that hurt each other. I am sure that everyone is aware of the sheer power of Volcarona when it has setup, and Substitute gives it that perfect chance to set up. With a Quiver Dance under its belt, Volcarona becomes very fast and powerful, while gaining some SpD as well.
As has been said below, dragons and grass types threaten our team greatly, with a 4x resistance and two super-effective STABs, they become a non factor. This deals with Lati@s and the other dragons, such as Salamence and Dragonite with HP Rock. With a QD up, Starmie and Reuniclus will take massive damage from STAB Bug Buzz. Two counters to this particular set, Terrakion and Heatran, are absolutely demolished by Gliscor and Keldeo. Volcarona also helps put the hurt on sun teams, though it needs to be careful of Dugtrio, but if a Sub is intact it wins that battle. Genesect cannot take it on as thunderbolt on the scarf set does 39% max. I do admit, we will need something to try to hurt rain teams, but I feel that Volcarona completes the core, and that adding rain counters should be done later.

Ok now that we picked Keldeo let's see what pokes can take on both Gliscor and Keldeo fairly easy (meaning that they can threaten both pokes while outspeeding both pokes, or that they wall both pokes):

Latios
Latias
Celebi
Tornadus-T
Gengar
Reuniclus
Starmie
Venusaur
Amoonguss
DD Salamence (if we don't use HP Ice on Keldeo)
Jolteon (removed because i was speaking under the scenario that if Gliscor forces a switch and gets a free Sub, then what pokes are able to threaten Gliscor + Keldeo. Jolteon cannot do this, because it gets OHKOed from Gliscor's EQ as it breaks the Sub, but 1 on 1 it beats both pokes)

So enter Scizor:


Scizor @ Choice Band
Trait: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Spd / 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- Pursuit

As you can see Scizor deals with every single one of the pokes that threaten our KeldOr combo. It tanks Dragon, Psychic and Grass attacks that the other two poke can't like a boss, and traps everything that get in the way of Keldeo's sweep. It also provides invaluable priority, awesome scouting potential, and most of its counters such as Skarmory, Jellicent, Tentacruel, Gyarados, Forretress and Volcarona are handled pretty well by the rest of the team. The best part about Scizor is that he gets to trap problematic pokes such as Celebi and Latios, without even the need to waste life or be in danger of HP Fire, as with a Sub up, you will be able to scout what item Latios has and act accordingly with Scizor, and against Celebi you will usually outspeed and have a Sub up as you pass to Scizor and he uses Giga Drain. Anyway enough said Scizor is a boss, fuck you Genesect!

I notice that the three Pokemon posted and the nominated Pokemon are all weak to Hurricane Spam. You don't want that due the amount of rain teams.

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Wish
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Thunderbolt

WishCM Jirachi would give us some valuable bulk, as well as more offensive pressure. Jirachi is a very bulk and effective sweeper in this metagame. It can pass wishes to the rest of our team (Keldeo can come in on a lot of Pokemon that threaten Jirachi) and it can serve as a good late game sweeper. Jirachi gives us a good amount of resistances as well, resistance to strong Dragon- and Flying-Type being the most important (think Hurricanes/Draco Meteors). The moves let Jirachi beat most of the Pokemon that threaten our core and they get very good coverage. Jirachi can also greatly benefit from Substitutes that Gliscor could pass to it, making it a good secondary receiver.

I have been testing Gliscor/Keldeo on simulators and they are a decent combo. However, they are screwed over by a particular Rotom-W (thanks Pocket) whose Hydro Pump OHKO's Gliscor and Volt Switch can not only 2HKO Keldeo but fuck up or momentum as well. Dragons are problematic as well (kudos to Pocket) especially scarfed Salamence and Specs Latios. To help try to counter these pokemon, I think we need a fast revenge killer. But it might not be exactly what you've had in mind:


Latios Choice Scarf
Timid nature
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
~Draco Meteor
~Psyshock
~Trick
~Hidden Power Fire

Latios can outspeed and dent every single pokemon on alexwolf's list- except Celebi, which falls to repeated Dracos / HP Fires (or, we can just take it down later with VoltTurn) Draco Meteor is still horrendously powerful even without Specs and can OHKO all Dragons in the tier (bar Dnite w/ Multiscale) DDSala no longer becomes a threat- Lati@s become manageable as well. Amoonguss and Venasaur taken down by Psyshock, Scizor HP Fire, and everything else Draco. Latios loves to beat in Tyranitars, Trick it its scarf as they set Rocks, and then switch to Gliscor to wall and pass boosts. Keldeo can even come in, tank a Crunch, and then set up. Latios loves Substitutes as well- especially when it needs that extra oomph to Trick Scizor and then KO it safely. It can take Psychic, Grass, and Electric for Keldeo and Water for Gliscor.

Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Adamant Nature
252 HP / 36 Atk / 220 SpDef
- Pursuit
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
- Superpower

Okay, so the main purpose of this Tyranitar is to Pursuit trap many of the troublesome pokemon for our current core, in a similar fashion to the Scizor that alexwolf posted.The likes of Latios and Celebi like to come in on Gliscor while also countering Keldeo, so a surprise SubPass to Tyranitar could quickly decide the game in our favour. Tyranitar also brings a couple of other advantages to the table. First of all, using CB Tar usually forces the opponent to bring in Fighting or Ground type pokemon to tank its Stone Edge's, two typings whose common members can be set up on by Gliscor. Second, weather. We all know how difficult it is to run weatherless teams for anything other than hyperoffense, so having Sandstream reduces the need for dedicated anti-Rain and anti-Sun defensive components (while also making it easier for Gliscor to stall opposing threats if we need it to). Lastly, CB Tyranitar is extremely difficult to switch into, especially in such an offense-oriented meta; so if we manage to pass it a sub, it can do a lot of damage.

I chose the bulky EV spread to better handle the likes of Celebi and Starmie, but it would definitely be worth considering a faster spread to outpace Jellicent if the rest of the team can't handle it. Similarly, if we don't choose another member who can SR effectively, we can just change this guy to a bulky SR / Pursuit set and it won't greatly reduce its effectiveness.

bubbly said:

Reserving Tyranitar

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I was under the impression we chose a weatherless balanced/bulky offense team...unless you're planning to use Unnerve Tyranitar? Correct me if I'm wrong on this one.

• Weather Independent - May include weather summoners to combat opposing weather

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i thought it was that the team won't be built with weather abuse in mind, but that a weather starter was not completely out of the question. "weather independent" then in the sense that the team is not build around weather. in practice that basically excludes rain and sun lol but sand is still up

electrolyte/harsha might offer a more concrete ruling on this matter

EDIT: for what it's worth lavos, i agree that it feels a bit early for a weather starter

alkinesthetase said:

i thought it was that the team won't be built with weather abuse in mind, but that a weather starter was not completely out of the question. "weather independent" then in the sense that the team is not build around weather. in practice that basically excludes rain and sun lol but sand is still up

electrolyte/harsha might offer a more concrete ruling on this matter

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If that's true, and I'll assume that it is because you're generally on top of things, then in my mind we shouldn't be bringing a weather starter into CCAT this early. What you say sounds to me like "once we have four or five 'mons, if a weather starter fits the role of the last Pokemon well, we can still include it". That's fine by me, and though I'd prefer a completely weatherless team, I would still like to contend that the third Pokemon is far too early to bring in weather. If we start now, it is practically inevitable that we'll end up having a much more weather-centric team than we intended, and the whole reason the majority of us voted for weatherless in the first place is because we didn't want weather in our CCAT. Consider that.

Im not a fan of CB Scizor, mostly because while it does trap and kill a fair bit on that list, it still loses to shit like Starmie and HP Fire Latios / Latias / Celebi / Venusaur etc etc. I really dislike the claim that alexwolf put out "look it beats everything on that list" when it actually doesn't. Sure, perhapes with a Sub up it doesn't fear them, but you won't have a sub up all the time, and I personally wouldn't pass a Sub to Scizor anyway (when its simply going to U-Turn out). Personally, I think Scarf Genesect does a better job (since it outspeeds the bug weak pokemon that Scizor cannot) but whatever.

I might nominate something later, but I would prefer we didn't add a scarfer this early to the process, I would much rather we finalise our core (maybe a secondary sub reciever?), adding 2 more members, before looking at the threats our team needs to cover, so we can pick our revenge killer then.

Just my 2 cents

Thunderous-T @ Life Orb | Volt Absorb
Timid | 4 Hp / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Thuner(bolt) | Nasty Plot | Focus Blast | Hidden Power [Ice]

Well were do i start off? Firstly Nasty Plot Thunderous-T with a Substitute will absolutely wreck any stall team with a weakend pink blob. Even without a Substitute he still smashes stall. Along with Thunderous-T and Keldeo together will be to much for any rain team to handle having to deal with Thunderous's Electric type stab and Keldeos boosted Water-type stab and with Fighting-type coverage on both these pokemon Ferrothorn a very common pokemon in rain is also not to safe. He brings a lot to the table offensively and has perfect synergy along side Keldeo apart from Keldeos Psychic-type weakness giving Gliscor two great pokemon to pass Substitutes to. Thunderous-T really aprreciates Substitute support as it lets him set up a Nasty Plot much easier. Behind a Substitute Thunderous-T can threaten the Lati's, Starmie and Tornadus-T, Amoogus, Celebi, Salamence and Jolteon, all pokemon who threatend the team however for a lot of these pokemon Thunderous-T can only beat them with a Substitute up.

Alakazam @ Focus Sash
Trait: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power Ice

After looking at Alexwolf's threat list, the first pokemon that popped into my mind was this amazing old school mon. He can do some serious work to the threats on this list. It can easily revenge kill every single one of these threats (except maybe jolteon) with either an OHKO or 2, and with a sash its pretty much a guarantee. And if this thing gets passed a sub its pretty much got 3 lives, which means he's sure to take at least one pokemon down with him. I think the standard all out attacker set would be his best option, as psyshock, focus blast, and shadow ball are perfect coverage and hidden power smacks dragons that could give keldeo troubles. Not to mention fighting/psychic is a solid synergy, anyways Alakazam would be awesome on this team.

Great nominations so far, but i have 2 issues. As Lavos Spawn said, we shouldn't be adding a weather starter so early, as it will limit our options unnecessary.

For this reason we shouldn't also pick a scarfer so early, as scarfers are meant to patch up weaknesses to boosting threats, and should be picked last. The rest of the team is supposed to dictate the scarfer we are going to use, not the other way around, which will be the case if we pick a scarfer now, especially a Pursuit weak one (looking at you Latios)

Also @ Ginganinja

Whil Scizor doesn't beat all of those pokes, it fares great against most of them, and can pick them off with BP if they have lost a little health beforehand. Not only this, but Scizor will be able to scout any dangerous pokes moves and items with Gliscor's Sub, making it much easier to deal with them.

EDIT: Oh and Genesect doesn't have Pursuit, which is necessary to trap Starmie, Lati@s and Celebi, which would otherwise get in Keldeo's way.

At the light of what has been said... I believe as Superpowerdude that a Electric could fix many weaknesses. However, in my humble opinion, a bulky Electric pokemon would be perfect.


Zapdos @ Leftovers
Trait : Pressue
[EVs : 220 HP / 252 SpA / 36 Spe]
Modest Nature (+SpA, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power Ice
- Roost

With his natural bulk and his high SpA he can threat all the things listed above without being too easy to take down.
I feel like we could switch HP Elec from Keldeo to HP Grass by the way if Zapdos enters the party.
With Life Orb, Zapdos can take Thundurus on the switch with no SR needed (with luck and kill for sure if SR are up, same goes for Tornadus-T), aswell as 2HKO Rotom-W. The only pokemon that could annoy him in the list is Reuniclus, as Zapdos can only 2HKO him with luck at damage roll (if the situation is : t1 Z Tbolt R CM; t2 Z Tbolt).
Given a possible substitute, Zapdos with this offensive set would be really a pain to deal with for the ennemy.

*For the EVs, I put some EVs to resist decently things like Draco Meteor ScarfTios, HPump from Rotom-W, not being 2HKO by Specs Hurricane Tornadus-T.
But I'm not good, and I don't have enough knowledge to offer you optimized EVs. So feel free to change them for a better spread..

If Zapdos joins the team, the only thing we would need would be a Steel type and there are plenty of possibilities for this Steel pokemon. Ideally a SR setter.

Thats the reason why i like Thundy-T more with Nasty Plot he can beat Reuniclus and although he is less bulky Gliscor can pass him a Substitute to help him. However i do like the idea of Zapdos and he can take Hurricanes from Tornadus-T better which is a plus

Also @ Ginganinja

Whil Scizor doesn't beat all of those pokes, it fares great against most of them, and can pick them off with BP if they have lost a little health beforehand. Not only this, but Scizor will be able to scout any dangerous pokes moves and items with Gliscor's Sub, making it much easier to deal with them.

EDIT: Oh and Genesect doesn't have Pursuit, which is necessary to trap Starmie, Lati@s and Celebi, which would otherwise get in Keldeo's way.

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Yea, I don't think your getting my point, Gliscor will not always have a sup up, and my argument is that I would prefer a more stable core, than us chucking on Scizor and saying "look it beats all these pokemon" when it actually doesn't really. From your list...

Latios
Latias
Celebi
Tornadus-T
Gengar
Reuniclus
Starmie
Venusaur
Amoonguss
DD Salamence (if we don't use HP Ice on Keldeo)

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Celebi, Latios and Latias are risky vs Scizor, since all commonly carry HP Fire, sure you can BP for a punch of damage, or you can Pursuit if you predict the switch, but its a 50/50 prediction, and if you fuck up you just lost your Scizor. When you consider that Gliscor and Keldeo BOTH lose to these pokemon, I prefer something a little more stable.

Tornadus-T, Reuniclus. Salamence, Amoonguss and Gengar (yep, ill give you these) provided Gengar isn't MYSTIC.

Starmie and Venusaur I don't really consider you beating. Starmie I guess maybe, but you cannot actually switch in on it since your taking a truckload from Surf, if Rain is up then your losing more. Venusaur just tanks your Bullet Punch, kills you with HP Fire, then Giga Drains on Keldeo / Gliscor to heal itself back up.

My point is that Gliscor won't always be able to get that Substitute for Scizor, and if it doesn't half the mons on your list become more threatening. If Scizor doesn't have a Sub, it flat out loses to some of the above pokemon as well, which further refutes your claim that "Scizor deals with every single one of the pokes that threaten our KeldOr combo". Furthermore, we cannot actually switch into many of the above mons on your list with Scizor making it more difficult to play around them. I am well aware that nothing can really counter all of the mons on your list, but I don't think Scizor is the best option despite what you claim.

On Genesect, yea o.k, it lacks Pursuit, but instead you get to force them out, force hazard damage on something, a free hit on something (U-Turn), AND the good matchup on whatever the bring in. Besides, I am not actually nominating Genesect, its too early in the process for us to select our revenge killer, and would rather we get a second substitute receiver before moving on.

Why is it so bad to add a weather inducer this early? Choice Band Tyranitar is one of the single best partners to Calm Mind Keldeo in OU, its pretty dumb just to ignore it because we arbitrarily decided we wanted a "weather-independent" team before we'd even chosen what our sweeper is. This is why I'm so against voting for playstyles - people go against voting for a Pokemon that clearly fits excellently in the team all because the team has already been labelled as weatherless. Also btw, even if we do add CBTar, the team will still be weather independent as long as we avoid adding Stoutland or Sandslash down the line.

SubPassing to CM Keldeo should be the team's primary win condition, so I think now would be a good time to consider the Pokemon our core has trouble with, and also how it matches-up against common teams. I really don't like looking at individual threats in isolation because that isn't how Pokemon works.


Rain Offense

• Tornadus-T beats both Gliscor and Keldeo with ease, its probably the biggest threat in the game atm so we need to get this checked asap.
• Glisc + Keldeo isn't really too bothered by Dugtrio which is nice.
• Ferrothorn gets Taunted by Gliscor so it can't set-up, Keldeo can break through it after a Calm Mind.
• Keldeo on rain are almost always choiced. We can't really do anything against them atm.
• Genesect 9.9 Keldeo is one of the better offensive checks, as it gives it an Atk boost meaning it can't KO with Thunderbolt after a Calm Mind, plus it resists Bug Buzz / Ice Beam / Flamethrower / U-Turn.
  
• Overall a very bad match-up - Keldeo is comparatively slow to some of the things this team runs and Calm Mind isn't really helping all too much vs Tornadus-T Hurricanes and Scarf Thundurus-T Thunders. If the Politoed is defensive then we can get off a SubPass whilst keeping the Substitute intact (23.83% max in Rain), but Keldeo ultimately isn't going to breaking through Perish Song Politoed / Torn-T / Dugtrio / Scarf Genesect too easily. They generally have a lot of options to revenge-kill us with so Sub doesn't really save us there.

Sun Offense - Simulation of a Drought

• Venusaur completely walls our current Keldeo and beats us with Giga Drain alone.
• Thats all there really is to say. We might have a small chance of doing something with Keldeo if we run Hidden Power [Ice] over [Electric] as Gliscor can get a SubPass off on Xatu. As it stands this is a very bad match-up, but with Hidden Power [Ice] its a bit better.

Sand Offense - Canine Carnage

• Taunt Gliscor shuts down Hippowdon.
• Latias walls Keldeo all day and Gliscor can't touch it either, so yeah thats gg here.

DragMag

• Our current Keldeo can't touch any of the dragons for decent damage at all, yet another reason to run Hidden Power [Ice].
• Gliscor can't touch Salamence / Latios / Dragonite whatsoever.
• Yeah we lose badly.

Deo-D Offense

• This match-up isn't actually all that bad in comparison to the others.
• If we run Jolly Gliscor w/ 220 Spd we can outspeed Deo-D and prevent it getting up hazards.
• However, Gengar walls our Gliscor completely so it gets a free sub there. It also outspeeds and 2HKOs Keldeo with Shadow Ball.
• We can't touch Dragonite because Hidden Power [Electric] 9.9
• If Terrakion is Rock Gem then Gliscor loses to it, so we need to rely on a Speed tie p much.
• Genesect again!
• Okay I lied, this match-up is terrible. If they run something like Latios or ScarfMence then its even worse.

I may add some stall teams to this later but they are rare and Keldeo is excellent vs most of them anyway.

Obviously at this point all these match-ups are going to be bad because we only have 2 Pokemon, but I think we need to keep referring back to a threatlist like this every time we pick a new Pokemon. For now, I'm actually going to suggest we go with Hidden Power [Ice] Keldeo since most of the Hidden Power [Electric] targets are already being hit reasonably hard by Secret Sword (bar Jellicent / Tentacruel), whereas being completely unable to hit the majority of dragons for decent damage in such an offensive metagame is pretty pathetic.

Also in case it wasn't clear, I was coming here to nominate CBTar but I was beaten to it, so I'm obviously supporting that. In terms of how Choice Band Tyranitar helps our match-ups against the teams above:

• Rain offense - not that much, sadly. It can pursuit trap weakened Politoed but ultimately we are still weak to Tornadus-T.
• Sun Offense - Pursuit trap weakened Ninetales to win the weather war. Need to be careful of Will-o-Wisp and Dugtrio, though.
• Sand Offense - traps Latias so Keldeo can actually do something. This is actually a pretty good match-up for us now!
• DragMag - same as above. Traps Lati@s so Keldeo can do some work. I see Starmie quite a lot on these teams now so it helps there too. If we go with Hidden Power [Ice] Keldeo this could be a decent match-up too.
• Deo-D Offense - yea, still weak to this.

OBLIGATORY SCARF GENESECT



Kabutops 2.0 @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Download
EVs: 8 Atk / 248 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Flamethrower
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam

It's god damn Genesect. It shouldn't need an explanation - this thing is so powerful not using it would be a mistake. Revenges stuff, applies pressure, gives Keldeo/Gliscor free switches with U-turn.

Latios/as and Celebi won't like taking an U-turn, T^2 is outsped and KOed. Bulky Reuniclus can survive an U-turn, but will have to recover or risk getting hit by something else. Starmie hates U-turn / Tbolt, and Amoonguss gets roasted. DD Salamance may be a problem, but Genesect can at least survive a +1 Outrage and KO. SubDisable Gengar and Venu may be problematic, however.
Also somewhat good against Deo-D.

I first though of Weavile (before even watching the first nominations, no lie!).
I agree that a pseudo-trapper is a must, simply because Baton Pass acts like a non damaging U-Turn like 75% of the time since Gliscor during a match doesn't have alot of opportunities to set-up a substitute and to Baton Pass it healthy. Moreover when I watch Keldeo/Gliscor I believe at this point Gengar and Dragonite (and the others Levitate Ghost or Dragons with a Fighting Resist) are the two things that seem to laugh at the combo.
Weavile could outspeed and kill Gengar and Ice Shark/Ice Punch will be a massiv pain for the Dragons mentionned above, but it's so hard a pokemon (and yet so cool) to use inside a viable team that I didn't want to propose it.. Let's not forget that Low Sweep can crush Terrakion aswell.

I wont change my Zapdos idea, but Weavile seemed interesting... maybe I'm missing some crucial points that's why I dare mention it.


*About Keldeo's HP, I think we should change it in the end, when the team will be almost full.