General Doubles Metagame Thread

thecrowing2k8 said:

is it worth running shadow ball over psychic on gardevoir?
I'm using a set with telepathy, and imprision/trick room/ helping hand/ attacking move. I use it to screw over Reuniclus, but is there other trick room mons worth hitting using Shadow Ball instead of Psychic?

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All of them?

They're either ghost or psychic types therefore Shadow Ball will cover you no matter which ones they use.

Technically speaking Porygon2 has no trouble at all with Shadow Ball, but I'm not sure anyone would run that as a TR settler.

I don't exactly see how that Gardevoir stays alive without Protect though.

thecrowing2k8 said:

is it worth running shadow ball over psychic on gardevoir?
I'm using a set with telepathy, and imprision/trick room/ helping hand/ attacking move. I use it to screw over Reuniclus, but is there other trick room mons worth hitting using Shadow Ball instead of Psychic?

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Why not use Musharna instead?

I don't see much point in killing Trick Room setters, since Imprison already renders them dead-weight. You also have a partner that can kill the TR setter, too.

I do agree with Firestorm that I'd use Musharna over Gardevoir. For either Gardevoir or Musharna I'd use Psychic - Protect - Trick Room - Imprison.

You can also use Cofagrigus over Gardevoir if you really want to use Shadow Ball. Gardevoir is a pretty bad Imprison user; it's not as bulky as other Imprison users. And you really should not be giving up its STAB for Shadow Ball for other TR users when you have Imprison and can reverse opposing TR with your own TR.

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles9512798

Finally found the ideal solarbeam partner for sunny day whimsicott! I've tried a variety of pokemon.. Infernape cannot ohko politoed and takes heavy damage from surfs whilst grass types scare out politoed or bait protects..

Grass gem gives Volcarona the ohko on most politoed whilst sunny day nerfs double surf offenses. The best part is its rare for a politoed to switch out or protect against the two. I'll post the next replay I have with these two verse rain.

The replay above is misleading but it shows the viability of a Volcarona with 3 high powered attacks.

Having Shadow Ball on Gardevoir and its Trick Rooming friends isn't the worst plan on an Imprison set, since it also protects them from stuff like Chandelure and whatnot, though not getting OHKOed before you get the Imprison off could be a chore. ;[ I would say you don't need an attacking move if you're also using Helping Hand though. What matters is that your mon has some way to contribute damage and while there are slightly different advantages comparing Helping Hand to a direct attack, they're redundant enough that there are probably better uses of a moveslot than running both (NAMELY PROTECT).

TOPIC OF THE WEEK #1

Hm good points Darkmalice and Mr.E. I somehow totally forgot about Chandelure lol i'm a noob.

Habibs, that was a cool game ;d I still prefer Quiver Dance, though. Sunny Day Whimsicott still offers QD Volcarona awesome support though, since +1 Heat Wave in the Sun would hurt!

Also initiating our first Topic of the Week! Contribute to the discussion of this topic to earn a point; earn double by being the best best poster concerning this topic! Feel free to talk about subject outside of TotW; this is just an alternative discussion that people can enjoy here:

Topic of the Week #1: Leftovers​

Here are some guiding questions:

~ What qualities should a Pokemon possess to make the most use of Leftovers in Doubles?

~ Provide a moveset with Leftovers

~ Is Sitrus Berry Leftovers of Smogon Doubles? When does Leftovers outweigh the immediate 25% recovery of Sitrus Berry?

The main benefit for Leftovers imo is a situation like this:
You are up against Cresselia+Kyu-B. Kyu-B knocks out one of your Pokemon while Cress uses Psychic on the other for ~25% damage. Then, Leftovers takes you just barely out of KO range for Kyu-B. Sitrus Berry wouldn't have helped, Kyu-B didn't need you below 50%. Hazards and passive weather damage can make the difference, so can Leftovers.

Then, there are the obvious other reasons. 4 turn survival is the break-even point and many highly used mons like Cress, Top, Toed CAN survive 4 turns pretty easily if that's what you're going for. Bulky offense is good and such teams like Leftovers. Protect and Fake Out are used to waste turns by you AND your opponent. That gives more recovery turns. It reactivates Sturdy and MultiScale. It isn't cancelled by Unnerve, Pluck, Incinerate, whatever. If you are tricked before Sitrus Berry would have activated, Leftovers would have still provided SOME benefit(maybe 2 turns of healing before being tricked).

However, I believe that Hyper Offense is about equal(maybe a little higher) than Bulky Offense right now. Anything with a gameplan to set-up Tail Wind/Screens/TR/Hazards and blow up/dish out high damage and die would benefit significantly more from Sitrus Berry.

Here is an optimal set for Leftovers.

Togekiss (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Thunder Wave
- Roost
- Air Slash
- Follow Me/Support Move

The support move can be Safeguard, Heal Bell, Tail Wind, Helping Hand, Protect, Wish, Yawn, Growl, but I generally prefer Follow Me.
The big special bulk absorbs a lot of hits when using Follow Me and ParaFlinch hax+Roost ensure 4+ turn survivability.

I love me some leftovers. Everyone knows my Ferrothorn and even my Cress and Tales run it with bulk and protect. Cresselia is often the only thing I see getting Sitrus, and that's due to the Item Clause of VGC. If not for that, Cress has so much bulk that 6% back a turn seems better to me than a 1 time 25%.

Now, if you're running a more Attacking type Cress without the extra bulk EVs, Sitrus has a place over Lefties, but usually those sets are better off running a ChestoRest set.

Bulky pokmemon should be the only pokemon running leftovers, and usually only follow me/rage powder users at that. In a meta like this with such bulky pokemon like cresselia, sitrus berry or even a chesto berry works better to prolong the longevity of their life. I don't think Leftovers is a viable option at all. there is far to many better choices to me

What's the opinion on stockpile users in doubles? There is a lack of toxic users since most of the usual pokemon who'd carry it can't spare the moveslot, so they can stockpile a couple times then heal then eventually wear down the opponents.
I've seen quite a number of Gastrodon, Hippowdon, and Cradily carrying it (unkillable in sand), and I'm basically relying on a crit to kill them after a few stockpiles. I tend to taunt those members but not everyone can taunt, or is able to spare the moveslot. My other way is to focus aim the stockpiler's partner and hopefully get a crit to kill it later.

On the subject of Leftovers, you might actually find it better to have a Sitrus Berry on a Follow Me/Rage Powder pokemon instead. The FM/RP user is put into a lot of situations where it takes 2 attacks on the same turn and, depending on those attacks, can be 2HKO'ed. Sitrus Berry activates during the turn as soon as dropping down below 50% so you'd be effectively turning a 2HKO into a 3HKO on the spot... surviving for another turn to redirect attacks. I generally prefer Sitrus Berry on Togekiss because of this.

I think Leftovers is generally inferior to Sitrus Berry for the reasons Carl listed. The instant 25% boost is very useful to survive attacks. However, I think that Leftovers can be more useful for Pokemon using the move Substitute, since it lets them constantly heal as opposed to the one off time with Sitrus Berry. Here's a moveset I thought up that could make use of it:

Abomasnow @ Leftovers
Trait: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 84 SDef / 172 Def
Calm Nature
- Blizzard
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Protect

This lets Abomasnow gain health constantly while not being subject to weather residual damage since it summons hail, which it's immune to. Blizzard is used to dispatch Grass types that are immune to Leech Seed while also killing Flying types that would threaten it. Giga Drain can be used for more healing. 84 SDef EVs are to prevent a Cresselia's Psychic from breaking its subs (assuming it has no SAtk investment), with the rest dumped in Defense to help it take physical attacks better. While the 84 EVs let it set up on Cresselia assuming a nonSDef enhancing nature, a Calm nature is still chosen to let it act as a better check to Rain teams, and to give it similar levels of bulk on both sides. An alternate spread of 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef can be used to allow it to take assaults from rain even better, but it would come at the cost of its physical bulk.

Leftovers is good on any pokemon that you expect to be on the field, tanking hits, for more than four turns. There are not many Pokemon like that, but when you consider that if you give your Pokemon protect, it only needs to be a tank for two turns; if you give your Pokemon Helping Hand, it probably doesn't even need to tank anything; and if you give it bulk investment instead of offense investment, it doesn't care about a power boosting item;

then you realize I'm talking about Politoed, the only thing I've ever liked running Leftovers on.

Politoed @ Leftovers
Bold
Drizzle
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
-Hydro Pump
-icy Wind
-Helping Hand
-Protect

This guy easily survives 7-8 turns when I need him to, packs a punch when i need him to (on neutral water types only), supports his mates when i need him to... Toed is a great supporter. And Leftovers is of more use on him than Sitrus because he's taking continual slow damage, instead of tanking one or two hits. I guess the relationship could best be summarized in "Sitrus for Tanks, Lefties for Walls;" and though there aren't many walls left in a doubles meta, those that are there still love this item.

Ok, as much as the accuracy boost is awesome, perhaps the best thing about Gravity is using it then watching people that don't know what it does Earthquake their own team to death.

There's quite a few viable leftovers holders, for example water absorb pokemon with surf teammates can viably last multiple turns in order to justify using leftovers, I'll be doing a feature piece on one of my favourite doubles pokemon that can do really well to support its team with leftovers shortly! Preparing it now.

Personally.. I believe that every weather starter should be running leftovers. In the Smogon Doubles Metagame it is hugely important to rule the weather to allow for your abusers to function properly and to effectively limit your opponents' weather abusers.
I am currently running sand on one account and rain on the other and I use Leftovers on both weather starters just to ensure that extra longevity and recover with protect when needed

HabibsHotDogs said:

There's quite a few viable leftovers holders, for example water absorb pokemon with surf teammates can viably last multiple turns in order to justify using leftovers, I'll be doing a feature piece on one of my favourite doubles pokemon that can do really well to support its team with leftovers shortly! Preparing it now.

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I'd just like to say firstly that I haven't been using the Surf + Water Absorb strategy (at this stage anyway..) but personally I believe that perhaps Life Orb would be a more effective item choice. Why? Because you are already getting the recovery from your team mate in surf and this allows you to hit like a truck and effectively negate the LO recoil + receive some extra HP recovery. Or even Scarf Water Spout Jellicent could benefit from receiving the HP recovery to supercharge its Water Spouts. I can't really see any/many instances where Water Absorb + Leftovers will be favourable over LO/Scarf/Specs/Band etc

http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles9567433

one of the most interesting, and close, battles I've had in a while.

http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles9568866

This may not be quite as cool as Pwnemon's battle, but it nonetheless shows at least that the ladder is better than RU's haha
It also shows that you can win after a double freeze lol~

Finally had a rain team to verse:

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles9573657

SunnyBeam is incredibly viable in doubles

edit: second politoed fucked me over in 1 turn thanks to protect...

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles9574572

edit 2 : Holy sheet this game was exciting for me

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles9579465

Pwnemon said:

Leftovers is good on any pokemon that you expect to be on the field, tanking hits, for more than four turns. There are not many Pokemon like that, but when you consider that if you give your Pokemon protect, it only needs to be a tank for two turns; if you give your Pokemon Helping Hand, it probably doesn't even need to tank anything; and if you give it bulk investment instead of offense investment, it doesn't care about a power boosting item;

then you realize I'm talking about Politoed, the only thing I've ever liked running Leftovers on.

Politoed @ Leftovers
Bold
Drizzle
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
-Hydro Pump
-icy Wind
-Helping Hand
-Protect

This guy easily survives 7-8 turns when I need him to, packs a punch when i need him to (on neutral water types only), supports his mates when i need him to... Toed is a great supporter. And Leftovers is of more use on him than Sitrus because he's taking continual slow damage, instead of tanking one or two hits. I guess the relationship could best be summarized in "Sitrus for Tanks, Lefties for Walls;" and though there aren't many walls left in a doubles meta, those that are there still love this item.

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Pwnemon I would much rather run Sitrus Berry or an Iron Ball on that set. You aren't going to be staying in nearly long enough for lefties to be worthwhile with both Politoed's bulk and the fact that it needs to keep swapping in and out, and the fact that the enemy is likely to try and just flat out kill the frog rather then worry about it staying around to cause mayhem since Toed's power is something to be feared.

Also, why not run Scald over Hydro Pump on a set like that? It still has great power while giving you a decent chance at some burn hax while removing the chance to be misshax'd by hydro miss.

Heres a little feature piece on one of my most liked support pokemon, it is rather unique as it has convenient immunities and resistances as well as a move pool that sets it apart from other support/tank pokemon such as Cresselia and Gastrodon.



Mantine

Pros & Cons
+Lasts long
+Great support move pool
+Anti weather immunities
+Easy to partner with
-Taunt bait
-Poor offensive presence
-x4 electric weakness

Mantine is unique in that it conveniently is immune to both earthquake and surf, making it not only a great support for pokemon who enjoy using these moves but also a great check and counter to sand and rain teams respectively! The major difference between Smogon doubles and VGC is 6v6 as opposed to 4v4 and as such, with longer games, the support Mantine gives is incredibly difficult to match!

Mantine has a support move pool that is hardly lacking, I'll list a few important moves below:

-Helping Hand
-Icy Wind
-Wide Guard
-Tailwind
-Haze

Wide guard is the most important one as it can really help against the discharges and rock slides that plague Mantine whilst your partner attacks. Helping hand is fantastic in doubles and icy wind and tailwind support is great for speed control. Mantine also makes a great leftovers holder as it will be very rare for it to last less than a few turns assuming you take care of it and avoid electric attacks or too many rock slides.

Heres a sample set:

Weather Wall
Mantine @ Leftovers/Wacan Berry
Trait: Water Absorb
252 Hp / 252+ Def / 4 SpDef
Bold Nature
-Wide Guard
-Icy Wind
-Toxic/Scald/surf
-Helping Hand


I used this on my hail team to great success, it deals with all weathers. Wide guard is a great support and perhaps the main reason you would choose Mantine over other support mons. Defence is maxed with a positive nature to give Mantine a better chance at surviving rock slides and toxic removes common walls and deals with multiple "bulky" pokemon that care little for icy wind. Helping hand allows Mantine to do something when offence is required and makes it a great partner for pokemon such as Volcarona that can really use a 50% boost. The best partners are either surf spammers that enjoy the helping hand or icy wind support as they heal Mantine or pokemon that could really use the wide guard support in order to set-up.

Mantine conveniently resists some of the most common physical moves in a specially dominated metagame (Fighting, Steel, Bug are all common) whilst taking paltry damage from any non-electric special attacks. The list of pokemon walled by Mantine, just from the top 10 is rather high! I'll list some of the most common pokemon Mantine walls rather effortlessly. All of the below are top 20!

#1 Politoed
#2 Cresselia
#3 Ninetales
#4 Gastrodon
#5 Hitmontop
#6 Scizor
# 8Latios (without thunderbolt and with surf support to keep Mantine healthy)
#11 Metagross
#12 Volcarona
#13 Heatran
#16 Kingdra


It can also hold its own against Terrakion/Tyranitar/Garchomp/Excadrill/Landorus-T as wide guard can give it temporary immunity to rock slide whilst your partner attacks leaving only Ferrothorn, Dragonite, Whimsicott and Rotom-W as top 20 pokemon that can give it consistent trouble!!

So I reached the top of the ladder and broke 2000 points (I've been playing the last few days as Boof Boof Boof.)



But I don't care if there's any reward or not honestly, since using the success I had as a teaching tool for others is enough of a reward ^_^. I decided I'd give a few tips to people looking to do well here, since I see a lot of dedication to the game in those I face, but very little knowledge of its mechanics.


This is sheer opinion, obviously, and I don't want to start an argument really, but doubles is a ton more strategic than singles. It focuses on a lot more elements than singles, and after playing a bit of both over the past year, I definitely believe this requires you to understand the workings of the game, damage rolls, mechanics, strategies, and everything far and wide. Many people are using 252/252 spreads, since that's common in singles; you have to do more calculations and take into account more when creating spreads in doubles, since Pokemon of BOTH attack types will be hitting you.

Second, and for most established singles players I cannot stress this enough, STRONGLY CONSIDER WHAT YOUR OPPONENT IS LIKELY DOING WHEN MAKING A MOVE. I have seen SO many straight 6-mon Trick Room, Sun, Rain, etc. teams that focus on THEIR STRATEGY and have zero concern for what the opponent could do to stop it (these teams don't work against seasoned players...almost ever.) Even if these players do look at what the opponent does, they still focus way too much on executing the strategy rather than making a good play. Put yourself in the opponent's shoes. If you were them, what would you do? Which Pokemon would be attacking which? Which Pokemon of yours are threatened? By spectating battles between high-rated players and observing their moves, and by simply playing them, you can understand why they're making specific moves. You're never above anyone else; always strive to get better. There's always something you can improve on at this game.

I recommend looking around for battle videos of experienced players, try to see what they're doing as far as team composition goes, and how they play. I also recommend not copying their team EXACTLY, but make sure you look at the concept and keep that consistent. For example, if there's a Cresselia/Metagross combination you like that utilizes Trick Room and Swagger/Lum Berry, but you don't like how Trick Room is used, try Thundurus with Swagger and Garchomp/Metagross instead. Just remember, as I mentioned in the tip above...you can't just think "IF I GET SWAGGER OFF, I WIN!" Your opponent may Rage Powder your Swagger with their Amoonguss and Heat Wave, effectively ending your attempt. Always take into account all possible threats. If someone shuts down your team and you failed to identify the threat or could not handle it, analyze it rationally (don't simply say "it was a gimmick, BS!!) and mold a Pokemon or a moveslot to better deal with that threat.


So in essence, look around for established doubles/VGC players, practice on PS/GBU, and remember the game is NOT about executing your strategy, but how well you are able to deal withyour opponent's team/moves/strategy.


Good luck to anyone out there giving this format a shot; keep an open mind, a winning mentality, and an attitude that promotes learning and improving!

^^ I know you as the guy who foiled 2 attempts at me ohkoing your politoed d:P I did learn that I don't always need to try ohkoing politoed first turn as priority sunny day teams have an inherent advantage over politoed rain if you play more relaxed.. I haven't lost to a rain team since then. Also Whimsicott is NOT taunt bait as you suggested.. one of the best pokemon in the tier, dead serious.

I like playing "out there" teams..

anyway I present to you:

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles9581859

How to wall an entire rain team, featuring Mantine.

How to sweep an entire rain team (except an ironic ending) featuring Volcarona.

Excuse the messing around in a lot of the turns I was entertained by the fact mantine was literally untouchable.

For those running Whimsicott you really should consider running max speed with a positive nature, that allows you to out taunt everything in the game and prevents priority thunderwave. It also guarantees you set up a screen/sun/tailwind or whatever no matter what your opponent runs :)

edit: just lost to a rain team, GG Level 51