Theorymon Sessions

Starships said:

What if Swellow got access to Close Combat?

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We discussed this briefly on IRC (yesterday, I believe?), and my thoughts on it were pretty much just: if it had Close Combat, Swellow would not be NU. That said, I didn't think much about it. Even though it only had 85 base attack, it would still be on par with Staraptor due to a much better speed tier and access to two great abilities--Scrappy and Guts--that help set it apart.

But what effect would it have on the current NU metagame?

Well, to me, it wouldn't influence its current role in the metagame that much. Obviously Close Combat is an incredible move, and it would give Swellow awesome coverage (Flying/Fighting Pokemon in XY plz), but obviously it would be able to bypass its usual counters in Steel and Rock types.

The thing is, right now, these type of Pokemon are fairly rare outside of lead hazard setters. Generally bulky mons that can also wall other threats are more often found on teams. These include Weezing and Misdreavus, most notably. Close Combat does nothing to help handle these Pokemon. Misdreavus has even been seen running Foul Play more often because it is so often walled while it walls other mons.

Anyways, I would still use it no doubt. It's solid coverage. But tbh, I would likely use it over Quick Attack on most teams. On my current one, I don't know though because I don't actually carry a scarfer, and I rely on priority to outspeed and kill scarfers. Probably though, I would use it over U-Turn and see if it was worth the spot. U-Turn is just so damn handy on offensive teams. If it proved to be useful, I would keep it.

Holy shit. Braviary would destroy absolutely everything with Sky Attack. Since Sky Attack has secondary effect in flinching, Braviary can slap on Sheer Force and get an extra power boost that allows it to dent anything that switches in. CB Braviary 2HKOes max HP Golem, Alomomola, and Metang with Sheer Force boosted Sky Attack and anything that doesn't resist it gets utterly destroyed by it. Scarf Braviary was already a great revenge killer, but now with Sky Attack it becomes almost impossible for offensive teams to switch in. Even a pivot like Alomomola gets 2HKOed by Scarf Sky Attack after Stealth Rock.

Sky Attack is also a great option for Swellow as it allows it to take down Ghost-type Pokemon without having to take massive recoil. Having base 125 Speed with 2 STAB 140 BP moves would make Swellow an incredible cleaner and I wouldn't be surprised if with a buffed Sky Attack both would end up getting banned to BL3.

EDIT: This is responding to If Sky Attack had no charge turn

What if Rotom-S got Roost?
Would you use it? It could be similar to Rotom-W in being a versatile, bulky mon that can grab momentum with Volt Switch and healing with Roost (more reliable than Pain Split.) It also evades the EQ because of double ground-immunity :)

Swellow getting CC would be interesting; I don't think it'd be particularly broken because it's still not the strongest Pokemon around even with a boost in coverage. I don't think it'd really change that much, apart from its counters becoming stuff like Misdreavus and Garbodor and Alomomola rather than the Rock-types.

Feranfell said:

What if Rotom-S got Roost?
Would you use it? It could be similar to Rotom-W in being a versatile, bulky mon that can grab momentum with Volt Switch and healing with Roost (more reliable than Pain Split.) It also evades the EQ because of double ground-immunity :)

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It'd be especially cool if it negated weaknesses to Rock- and Ice-type moves while Roosting as well, which I believe is what would happen (since Levitate prevents it from losing the Ground-type immunity). Rotom-S has a really cool defensive typing and stats, and you have multiple options to use with a defensive set, like Discharge / Will-o-Wisp. I'm assuming Roost would be in lieu of Air Slash, so you can't really use paraflinch sets, but, just being able to Thunder Wave or burn something and then Volt Switch out would be make it an awesome bulky pivot with recovery. Plus it's quite fast; this sounds like it'd be really awesome in the current meta, even.

Yeah, it would still retain its Ground immunity, even with Roost, due to Levitate.

It would be pretty awesome if it got it. There are a lot of reasons for this, most of which zeb already listed, but probably the best reason would be that no one could make stupid Levitate Rotom-S jokes anymore because it would finally have a use. u_u

Anyways, yeah, it would make for a great status-inducing pivot. Probably the coolest part would be that its Stealth Rock weakness would be much less noticeable and crippling for a pivot-mon. I think it would cause it to move up significantly in usage, and scarf Rotom-S would basically no longer be a thing.

Well, with the tier shifts gone, I have another speculation.
what if Samurott got Nasty Plot?
Samurott's design would certainly be fitting for Nasty Plot, as it is based off of a Samurai, who were always making nasty plots. This move would make samurott completely unpredictable, as it could be physical or special. It could even go Double Dance with Hydro Pump and Megahorn for good Coverage.

I would love this. I think the competition between Simipour at this point would be interesting. While Samurott is slower, it's much bulkier and has access to Megahorn to hit Jynx, while Simipour doesn't. That alone would probably decrease Simipour usage, other than a scarf/specs set to make use of its speed, but its Nasty Plot set will almost never see use. Samurott would also have an issue at this point as far as moves go - it has access to HP Grass to hit Alomomola, Seismitoad etc, Hpump/Surf for STAB, Ice Beam for Grass, Megahorn for Jynx and the other Psychic-types, Taunt to stop setting up, although that's mostly used on its physical set, iirc... and then add Nasty Plot to that. However, I think HP Grass would see less use because:

Hydro Pump: 77.71 - 91.57%

Ice Beam: 80 - 94.4%

After one boost, while the other two can't do too much back in return. It's early so I can't think of many other things it has to worry about in regards to why it should use HP Grass, but the need for faster, stronger mons might increase even more than they are needed already. At this point Samurott could probably start running a bulkier set for the most part, since Ludicolo seems to have less of an impact now with Jynx and Scolipede around, and Braviary can stall Samurott but wouldn't be able to safely switch in. It would definitely be an interesting change to the metagame, and one that I would be all for, since Samurott is such a great Pokemon anyway, and it can be worn down with LO/SR (and lacks the extra power with Leftovers), and faster mons, so it wouldn't be too much of a threat in regards to taking it out. Also, Munchlax can Whirlwind it away, easily surviving the OHKO if it switches in while it's setting up, which is pretty awesome.

Before I go talking about Cnidali, I just want to make sure if it's ok to do so here. I know Birkal brought it up on page 2, but I wanted to talk about it in the current meta. Just making sure.

Anyways, onto a more productive thing:

What if Sneasel got Technician from the Dream World?

Would this make Sneasel more viable? While it still has it's mediocre base 95 attack, it is no longer completely held down by weak moves (Well, Ice Punch is still it's strongest ice STAB, but I think Tech Ice Shard will be used more). Sneasel can now use Low Sweep for Dark / Fighting coverage with 2 90 BP moves. Not only that, but it has a great speed of 115, making SD pretty cool. It's still fragile as shit (even after Eviolite I think), but it could be a neat offensive threat. Also, it's cool that it can switch in on non Focus Blast/Lovely Kiss Jynx and Pursuit trap it to death (outspeeds and OHKO's with Pursuit even if Jynx stays in because of it's atrocious defense), which is neat. I might come back with calcs, but Tech Sneasel would be a neat threat in the NU metagame. Thoughts on this?

I would hardly call 95 base attack mediocre in NU. While no, it may not be anything to write home about, it's still respectable enough to warrant usage. Give Sneasel Technician, and I think it would be a huge threat, especially considering Sneasel's awful movepool.

As far as I know, Sneasel's strongest Dark-type STAB is Bite. This is pathetic, right? Well, with the Technician boost and STAB, it would hit 135 BP which, of course, is nothing to scoff at. Also, with priority Ice Shard--as well as Fake Out if you wanted something more--Sneasel can revenge kill even faster threats (which mind you, there aren't very many).

Some relevant calcs:


Anyways, I don't much feel like doing more calcs at the moment, but I will say this: due to its priority and huge speed, it's something you already have to play around when you do run into it. If it got Technician as well, it would be a much more notable threat without question.

I think with Sneasel having Technician, Torkoal usage would rise, getting 7HKO'd by Pursuit (with a Jolly nature), and 2HKOing back in return with Lava Plume. It's also especially relevant now as hazards are common in the tier, and the need for a spinner becoming more important than before. Gurdurr could also find more usage. It can live a few hits from Sneasel, Mach Punch can OHKO it without any sort of boost, and can drain away damage with Drain Punch. On the other hand, it'd be amazing to use priority-wise. Ice is one of my favourite types in the tier, and having access to Technician with Ice Shard is pretty awesome, as it can OHKO stuff like Rotom-S after SR without needing to take any damage itself (unless it's defensive, but yeah). It'd also be able to destroy Swellow, however the fact that a poisoned Quick Attack can do up to around 50% is not good, especially with LO recoil. At least it grabs the OHKO, though! Kangaskan could also become even more useful as it can switch in after something has died, Fake Out, and Drain Punch to kill it because Brick Break (and Low Kick) can't even OHKO it. Weezing could also be able to come in safely on it, and cripple it, or 2HKO it if Weezing wishes.

With that in mind, I agree that it'd be great with Jynx around, and would fit into this metagame nicely (at least it would be more interesting!) for the most part (although it might make some of the new additions even stronger when losing for example Swellow to keep non-scarfed versions in line, etc).

Technician Sneasel would be nice, considering that most of Sneasel's most common moves tend to have underwhelming damage output anyways, so it would definitely be a much needed buff. I feel that the best way of going about using it with Technician would string towards a Choice Band set consisting of Ice Shard, Bite, Low Sweep/Low Kick, and Pursuit/Ice Punch, giving it fairly consistent damage output with its great Speed, good coverage, and useful priority that also receives a welcome boost. It also has the ability to check a few threats such as Misdreavus, Jynx, Golurk, and various sweepers thanks to its typing, ability to trap with Pursuit, and being able to revenge kill a few common sweepings with Technician boosted banded Ice Shard.

I want to bring up something I thought about earlier when making the volturn thread.

What if Scolipede had U-Turn?

When first thinking about what Scolipede would be like in NU, something came to mind: it's a fast Bug-type Pokemon, good attack... but no U-turn? What's interesting is it would be a double-sided sword. While it would allow it to get away from Missy and Weezing into something else that could easily take one of their attacks and deal a lot of damage in return, it would also mean Scolipede would need to lose one of its valuable moves. Would this be worth replacing Megahorn with on dedicated Spikes sets, allowing it to initially scout and set up hazards later? Maybe even replace another move with U-turn? Or even on an offensive set? How would this affect its counters and checks, and in essence, the rest of the metagame when it comes to dealing with Scolipede?

Scolipede with U-Turn would be really scary. It would definitely be a move to consider over Megahorn in dedicated Spikes set or dropping a coverage move for it, giving it a great advantage against its check and counters, damaging decently and switching to a resistant mon. In fact if it got U-Turn it could be banned to RU :P

Scolipede getting U-Turn is an amazing buff to him. His spike stacking abilities are unparalleled, and now he can switch out after setting three layers up WHILE doing damage and being used as fodder/a heavy hitter later in the game. Don't get me started on the offensive set: it would give him a great, reliable (albiet more powerful) STAB that gets him the hell outta Dodge, which is good for any attacker.

Honestly, it could possibly go up to RU with the addition of U-Turn.

I have a quick one for you guys:

What if Swalot got Recover?

Swalot is an underrated mixed wall, with his good Poison-Typing and even base 83 Defenses (plus base 100 HP). The only thing he's missing is survivability. His only recovery is Pain Split. I think if Swalot got Recover he would be a more reliable check to the various physical attackers in the tier.

Leafshield said:

What if Swalot got Recover?

Swalot is an underrated mixed wall, with his good Poison-Typing and even base 83 Defenses (plus base 100 HP). The only thing he's missing is survivability. His only recovery is Pain Split. I think if Swalot got Recover he would be a more reliable check to the various physical attackers in the tier.

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I think even with Recover it would be generally outclassed for the most part. Weezing/Missy can actually take hits better on the physical side, and on the special side it doesn't really have too much special about it either.

For example, CB Sawk with versus Weezing: Close Combat: 29.64 - 35.02% and versus Swalot: Close Combat: 31.43 - 37.12%. With Recover, yes Swalot could recover HP, but all it could really do is force out said Pokemon. Even so, that isn't really guaranteed, as sometimes said Pokemon might stay in to kill you if you've already taken damage, and so on. Then on the Special side, Munchlax can survive much better in this metagame with Jynx running around, due to access to Thick Fat and Eviolite (as well as restalk). While back on the physical side, Weezing has the advantage of having access to Fire Blast/Flamethrower, so it isn't always safe for Jynx to switch into Weezing, whereas Swalot has nothing like that.

It's a nice idea, but I don't think Recover would make Swalot fit in much better in this current metagame simply because as it is there's Pokemon that can do what it does better. Also while it can force switches and accumulate hazards, which does fit in well with this metagame, that's generally all it can really do, while a combination of Weezing and Munchlax for example can force switches, burn opponents, survive physical and special hits easily (and without Weezing having Recover, too) and be able to attack back in return.

I'm also going to bring up something else here.

What if Carracosta had Rock Head + Head Smash or just Head Smash, or just Rock Head?

Relicanth might come to mind here, but what's interesting is that Carracosta has Shell Smash, something which puts it ahead of Relicanth. Stone Edge is already powerful but misses out on getting a few extra KO's.

With one Shell Smash, Carracosta could do this to Alomomola:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 511-602 (95.69 - 112.73%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Which is pretty awesome, really. And if Alomomola carries Waterfall, then it's a 4HKO after the -2 Defence, which already makes Carracosta hard to take down as it is. Carracosta is already a great Pokemon in the current metagame, but the question is would Rock Head and Head Smash (with Shell Smash already in its arsenal) be too broken? Would this give Relicanth very little purpose? What more could Carracosta do to the metagame with access to this? Another interesting question is, one of its abilities would need to be replaced (and all are pretty useful). Which one would you replace it with? Would you use Head Smash without Rock Head?

Also adding in the alternate question of just Head Smash or just Rock Head so people have some other stuff they can consider, too!

Starships said:

What if Carracosta had Rock Head + Head Smash or just Head Smash, or just Rock Head?

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I'm just going to answer question #1 because it's the most relevant out of all the three questions. (jk im just lazy)

With the more offensive nature of the meta, Head Smash Carracosta is definitely going to be one of the top contenders in the NU environment due to it having a 140 Base Power STAB move with practically no drawbacks if Rock Head is to become its ability as well as having a decent STAB priority move.

The main problem, though, is setting up. With the loss of Solid Rock, Carracosta will be much more vulnerable to Earthquakes, Close Combats, and, of course, Grass moves. Carracosta is also still outsped by practically any scarfer in the tier, though most of them are pretty frail so having hazard support is nice to ensure some KOs on key threats like Primeape and Electabuzz with Aqua Jet. Choice Scarf Simipour and Jynx may also rise in usage though because they resist / are immune to the said attack, and can fire off their SE coverage moves. Gurdurr and Throh can also be considered checks to Carracosta, as they can live a Waterfall and go for their SE Fighting Type move.

What if Klang got Rapid Spin?

Seriously, I don't understand why the Gear line of Pokemon can't spin in the first place. Anyway, the tier is obviously lacking in good spinners but look at Klang: nice bulk with evo, resists rocks, immune to t-spikes and can even be a setup sweeper. Thoughts?

KryptoKrunch said:

What if Klang got Rapid Spin?

Seriously, I don't understand why the Gear line of Pokemon can't spin in the first place. Anyway, the tier is obviously lacking in good spinners but look at Klang: nice bulk with evo, resists rocks, immune to t-spikes and can even be a setup sweeper. Thoughts?

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Klang would still need to run shift gear because he can't do anyhting without it. The least useful move on his standard set is substitute which means he'd probably run spin over that. I'm sure it's usage would explode if he got the move just because so many people on ladder can't imagine building a team without a spinner even if all the available ones are pretty bad and with klang's rock resistances they'd just go crazy. But competitively, I doubt it would make klang more viable, just a little more useful, and even then, it'd be harder to sweep than it already is without substitute to protect from t wave and will-o-wisp. Klang's stats and movepool are just too terrible to try to run a defensive set, although I'm sure many people would try it. I agree klang should get rapid spin though, judging by it's appearance (kind of like noctowl should get glare and entei earthquake).

What if Rapidash got Sheer Force ?

Man Sheer Force Rapidash would have been insanely powerful and incredibly good in NU. The reason for this is that Rapidash blistering speed and incredibly strong STAB attack in Flare Blitz while also having good coverage options in Wild Charge and Drill Run where the latter gets a boost from Sheer Force would make Rapidash an incredible force. What really pulls it off is that Rapidash can heal off damage from repeated Wild Charges with Morning Sun, and the fact that you get no recoil when spamming Flare Blitz are just overpowered. So what are your thoughts of Sheer Force Rapidash ?

Sheer Force doesn't cancel the recoil of Flare Blitz, just the recoil of Life Orb

It'll still hurt a bloody ton though, but the thought of more power with less recoil (at least for LO sets, CB sets can't take advantage of its great coverage well enough) seems way too good to pass up. That's my only gripe with Rapidash really, the inability to use your strongest STAB without half killing yourself (not as bad as Pikachu, but it doesn't have good HP like Braviary or Kangaskhan to soak up the recoil).

I'm still sad that one of my favourite Pokemon isn't more useful, so...

What if Beartic got Ice Shard?

While Beartic wouldn't have the most powerful priority in the metagame, STAB Ice Shard off 110 Attack would be really nice, and help patch up its bad speed problem. It would also really help to stunt Flyers like Braviary. Beartic also has reasonable bulk, so if it can take a hit while nearly OHKOing the opponent, Ice Shard might be able to do what Aqua Jet currently can't.

If Beartic got Ice Shard, it would be more useful because of unique, unshared, double priority. However, Primeape or Sawk can tank it and OHKO anyway, and they are not alone. Water-types still resist both priority moves, as well as Regirock not giving a fuck.

Now, I'll throw in one of my own: What if Pikachu's Extremespeed was a level-up move, as well as Volt Tackle providing no recoil?

Volt Tackle + Extremespeed + Fake Out on the same moveset? Pikachu would be a huge threat with its priority spam and a drawback-free 120 BP STAB move, and Brick Break for further coverage, basically ensures something is going to die - as long as your opponent has no Golurk which is immune to those four moves. It would be undoubtedly more dangerous on the physical side, and one of the most dangerous wallbreakers around, but it would not rise out of the depths of NU.

Well we brought this thread back to life lol
While Pikachu would be fantastic with those 3 moves, the fact that Golurk is so Common, Pikachu will still not be a great Pokemon. While it's attack goes sky-high with the Light ball, pikachu still is frail as hell. Pikachu would be a better Pokemon with level up Extremespeed, but still not great.

What is the deal with Pikachu's move illegality stuff? I don't really understand.

Regardless, if Pikachu got ExtremeSpeed as a level-up move, then it would probably be more dangerous, but I doubt it would still see much usage in NU. Pikachu's bulk is ultra-pitiable, and even with Light Ball, ESpeed doesn't really do as much damage as it should.

I mean, yikes, that's a normal Sawk. ESpeed would be good for picking off weakened opponents, but lacks any real power (plus Pikachu can't run any other item other than Light Ball). Maybe it would go B-rank, but Pikachu is still incredibly hard to use effectively as he can't take barely any neutral attacks (30 base defense, ouch).

Nah, Pikachu wouldn't be very good even with those changes. Better, but not good.

EDIT: Here's my contribution: What if Sawk got U-turn?

People would finally have a reason to use Scarf Sawk over Scarf Primeape again. Sawk already is an awesome Scarfer, it has ridiculously high Attack by NU standards, and Close Combat isn't anything to mess around with. Not mention, Musharna (though it is getting progressively less relevant) wouldn't hard counter Sawk so well. I don't have to argue the merit of U-turn (every good player is familiar with how awesome it is for Scarf users), but it would definitely make Sawk even more metagame-defining than it was before the drops.