Theorymon Sessions

zeb is a loser


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Charizard getting Tail Glow is something I've talked to people about before outside of this thread, and my thoughts are still the same. Charizard as of now is still very strong, even outside of sun. But having access to Tail Glow would make him even more of a threat. in the current meta, it isn't terribly difficult to keep rocks off the field. There's also the benefits of being about to outspeed the base 95'ers and having surprisingly decent 78/ 78 / 85 defenses, allowing Zard to set up easier than you can imagine. At +3 (you don't even need +6 honestly) Zard absolutely rapes. STAB Fire Blast and Air Slash are still pretty good coverage, and moves like Focus Blast can annihilate those pesky Rock-Types. These all hit hard BEFORE Tail Glow, making Zard that much bigger of a threat.
 
I almost think Tail Glow Charizard would do nearly as well in RU as in NU (if it even stays in NU if this happens that is, but it probably will). It would no longer be outclassed by the several powerful Fire-types that roam RU, and it would have access to amazing spinning partners in Kabutops and Cryogonal.

But anyway, this is NU. If Charizard were to run a Tail Glow + 3 Attacks set, it would be Fire Blast, Air Slash, and HP Grass. HP Grass, or Solarbeam in the sun (+3 and Solar Power? @_@). The Grass-type move could be switched out for either Roost or Substitute though.

Charizard would instantly rise to being one of the top threats in the tier, I believe. Nasty Plot is scary enough, but Tail Glow is perhaps borderline broken.
 

Dell

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Tail Glow Charizard would undeniably be an extremely significant, unexpected threat in the metagame. Charizard's versatility alone often causes players to force a lot of switches upon facing it, allowing it to gain various setup opportunities. Sets that utilize Tail Glow usually only need to be running Fire Blast and Focus Blast to potentially steamroll through everything in the tier after a simple boost, as it grants basically perfect coverage within the NU tier. A cool idea would be a set like this:



Charizard @ Life Orb/Salac Berry
Trait: Blaze
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Tail Glow
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
- Roost/Substitute

This would probably become the main method to go about a set like this, as its ability to force switches against several threat allows Charizard to gain setup opportunities against a majority of Grass types, defensive Pokemon like Misdreavus or Weezing, or just slower Pokemon in general such as Jynx. Even if Charizard doesn't manage to setup it still hits very hard with its high SpA stat and great coverage. Roost and Blaze allows it to properly compensate for the Stealth Rock weakness, with an un-resisted coverage (bar Mantine, Altaria, and Lampent) of Fire and Focus Blast. Focus Blast is also cool as it allows you to manhandle Pokemon that tries to hit you during your Substitute, such as Golem and Piloswine. After a +3 boost, Fire Blast crushes through even the myriad of resists such as Samurott, Alomomola, and Golem. Salac Berry with Substitute is an option since it makes Charizard extremely hard to stop late game, while Life Orb and Roost is more beneficial for staying, consistent power.
 

mkizzy

formerly kenny
What if Lampent's DW ability was released (Shadow Tag)?
The all elusive Shadow Tag ability, seldom found on Pokemon. Shadow Tag has been long awaited for Chandelure, and many fear it. Does the same hold true for Lampent? Would Lampent be something to fear as a trapper in the NU tier, or would it be held as low as it is now (arguably)? I don't think it'd be something powerful enough to lift it into as heavy usage as something such as Gothitelle, but it could definitely help it's standing in the metagame. My view of it isn't so hot, and while Shadow Tag is heavily sought after, I don't think it would be that effective on Lampent's abilities. Lampent could block a Rapid Spin, and then proceed to trap and defeat the spinner; although sadly this is not the case. Lampent has difficulties beating all prominent spinners within the tier, sadly wasting the potential of what could be a great combination of assets. All in all, I don't think it would be nearly as great as Shadow Tag Chandelure possibly could be; although this is obviously theorymonning. If you have a different view on it let me know!
 
As choice Primeape and Sawk are huge, Lampent could come in on Close Combats, and proceed to get up 6 Calm Minds with ease. That could actually be broken.
 
Lampent getting Shadow Tag is the scariest thing I can think of as of right now. Unlike Gothorita, who only resists Fighting-, Lampent is completely immune, allowing it to come in on any Choice-locked Fighting-Type, whether it be prediction or as a revenge kill, set up six CMs, and completely destroy him, easily taking that mon out of the match. He does the same with Swellow, allowing your own Fighting-Type or your Jynx to sweep and outrun the other team unimposed. Lampent with Shadow Tag would be the reason for Fighting Types to drop some in usage, imo.
 

WhiteDMist

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What if Lampent's DW ability was released (Shadow Tag)?

This would be a big change for the tier. This literally forces people to be exceptionally careful about what they spam with Choice-locked moves. A single mistake in your choice of what to use with something like Banded Sawk, Scarf Primeape, Scarf Jynx, and Banded Braviary. However, this does not mean that these Pokemon will be unviable if ST was released. I believe that the Fighters of the metagame will adapt well, or are already declined in usage (Gurdurr). I predict the rise of Expert Belt Sawk to make Lampent really difficult to use, while still maintaining a good portion of its power and utility. Primeape will simply be more likely to spam U-Turn until Lampent is worn down enough. Let's also not forget that Lampent is really slow and is Stealth Rock weak. Since Rest is its only form of recovery, it needs to be just as careful as Gothorita, if not more. I feel that it is more likely to just take over Goth's role of removing certain walls for your physical sweepers to take over and sweep. Lampent itself can sweep, but I highly doubt a good opponent would foolishly spam attacks recklessly.

Now, this next Pokemon has decreased in effectiveness due to the tier shifts. It also has a notable flaw in its offenses that prevent it from sweeping or performing a role that many other Pokemon of similar typing can perform.

What if Cacturne received Pursuit?

It is hardly the second coming of Absol, but now Cacturne would have a new niche. Admittedly, Psychic-type Pokemon outside of Jynx have been falling in usage lately. But I still feel that Cacturne has a good niche over Skuntank in its higher Atk stat and the ability to switch into Scalds reliably. Sure, Signal Beam is a fatal blow, but Cacturne wouldn't meant to switch in regardless: it would be meant to enter after a kill and put the opposing Psychic-type in a dangerous position with Pursuit and Sucker Punch. It still has the ability to set up Spikes, Swords Dance, and can even use Choice Band with a semi-reliable STAB Dark move now (wouldn't recommend it, but I may be wrong). Any thoughts? Like Zeb said, Cacturne was a highly underrated threat last round: this round I feel like it has been forgotten and perhaps something like Pursuit would change that.
 
What if Cacturne received Pursuit?

Cacturne is not doing so hot this round. Mons like Jynx and Scolipede completely manhandle it, and the latter even takes it's niche as a spiker with a strong offensive presence. But giving Cacturne Pursuit could very well give it a niche (or steal it from a certain skunk) as a Pursuit revenger who can play mindgames with Psychic-Types, just with a stronger Sucker Punch and Pursuit than Skuntank's. He still has his same old issues, such as abismal speed and god awful defenses, but i think Pursuit could shine a new light on Tim Burton's cactus.
 

skylight

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Imma just go back a few posts, and reply onwards from there.

Tail Glow Charizard would be... I'm not sure if it'd be broken but damn, it would be not fun to face. It's extremely strong and useful now, but giving it the extra Tail Glow would be terrifying to face. With that in mind, it DOES need to set up - but for those unaware of what it's running, would you want to risk your Primeape, and possibly get it OHKO'd or stop this giant threat? That's what'd probably come to mind more now if it had Tail Glow. Also SR probably wouldn't affect it much at all, as it only needs to Tail Glow once and only priority could touch it. Sucker Punch is no longer safe, unlike on Choiced Zard, and Fake Out would probably increase a lot, although if it runs Roost then really, this monster is going to be hard to get through (especially with Salac as mentioned above). Faster mons such as Swellow/Zebstrika will be even more common, for the non-Scarfed versions - but still the question will come to mind as to whether to risk your counter or not (resulting in Zebstrika possibly seeing more usage as Scarf, since LO's been popular lately). Also Rapidash would likely be more common, as well as Tauros to revenge kill. Aqua Jet users such as Samurott and Carracosta would rise a lot more in usage, even more so than they're used now.

In regards to Lampent with Shadow Tag, Kanga would rise, and other Normal-types would appreciate the decrease in Fighting-types with Lampent around. Although possibly the need for a faster physical revenge killer versus Lampent would become more necessary, however finding a faster physical attacker wouldn't be too hard. Fighting-types would definitely have to play conservatively and stall would become even less existent than it is now. Because really, it isn't safe to let the wrong Pokemon be in when Chandelure is in because otherwise you can't do anything. On the other hand, hazards would become more important, to wear it down and stop it from trying to dominate twice I don't think it'd remain in NU long enough for it to be banned though, because RU would most likely take it for themselves, as Shadow Tag can be such a useful ability.

Cacturne receiving Pursuit is interesting. However, I don't think it'd see much more use than Skuntank, because of its poor defences for the most part. It'd still work as a Spiker, although the general majority would prefer Scolipede. It'd definitely be useful against Jynx, but Skuntank can actually live an attack from Jynx, something that Cacturne can't if it predicts wrong. I think it'd see some use, but not too much in this round, as there's generally other things that can fill its role which are much more popular now in terms of being a spiker, in terms of being a pursuit trapper, and in general.
 
Adaptability Swanna
I didn't really consider that they can't switch in, and to be frank, I'm not really sure why. That's my mistake; Swanna would become a potent threat with Adaptability.

Also, I don't really like the suggestion of QuiverPass Bufferfree based upon Zebraiken's metaphor, as not only is Sleep Powder+QuiverPass a strategy that I wouldn't call "NU material" (why else isn't Venemoth in the tier, for example) it just seems like a deliberate attempt to completely outclass something (because then why in the world would you be using Masquerain in that case when Sleep Powder+QuiverPass is just way too good?). So yeah, just keep that in mind.
Well, you probably wouldn't be using Masquerain. But there are always going to be Pokemon that are just plain outclassed by others. Watchog, for example, is never going to be the wallbreaker that Kangaskhan or Zangoose is. In a similar regard, Agility Girafarig will never be the same quality of Baton Passer that Ninjask is. While giving Butterfree Baton Pass would definitely push it above Masquerain, Masquerain's access to Intimidate and awesome moves like Hydro Pump still give it a niche in the tier. I was obviously inspired by Masquerain to make that theorymon, but I wasn't going out of my way to outclass it and make it worthless.

Anyways, I don't know that it would necessarily make it a higher tier Pokemon. Sure, it would be a much better one, but once again, I think comparing it to Ninjask is the best route to take here. Ninjask was a top tier OU threat in DPP because of the lack of team preview. You had to be prepared to handle it with your lead unless you wanted it to get up a free Substitute and continue to boost while you struggled to handle it. Butterfree's poor speed tier would still really hold it back, letter faster Substitute users handle it well, among other Pokemon. Seeing that it's in the team preview, you can handle it much better. Like faster Substitute Pokemon, Sap Sippers would also still be able to handle it. Miltank comes to mind as the best way to handle it in this manner. Anyways, Venomoth is higher tiered because while, yes, this is a great strategy, it also has much better stats to back it up. Besides this, usually Venomoth serves as more of a standalone sweeper with Tinted Lens in my experiences. Regardless, while it may move up with Baton Pass, it is still manageable in NU, and I don't know that it would automatically move up.

I have this idea; I think it may be a little too overpowered, but what if Coil boosted Speed instead of Accuracy? It would be essentially a physical Quiver Dance, with largely the same distribution. Serperior's movepool is really sparse, but it could be somewhat effective and still manage to remain in NU. Eelektross is really too slow to take advantage of the speed without two turns to set up, and his physical movepool is... weird to say the least. Arbok is the only one that might actually be broken with the move; between Intimidate and his fair stats, he could actually be a threat. However, Arbok actually prefers the original boosts much of the time; it allows Gunk Shot to have presentable accuracy.
It's kind of disappointing, really, that this is not the way the move works. I think Speed-boosting Coil could honestly make even Dusparce threatening, (particularly with its Serene Grace Headbutt and Rock Slide). Physical Serperior would be a lot more threatening, with great coverage in Return/Leaf Blade alone. It would very much have the same checks that Sawsbuck does in Haunter and Drifblim. Eelektross would probably benefit from this the most, with Wild Charge for STAB, and perfect coverage in Drain Punch and Crunch. On top of that, Drain Punch allows it to recover its health, increasing its stayability. The one thing holding Eelektross back from truly becoming a top tier threat is its poor speed; with a good Speed boosting move, it would be a lot harder to handle.

What if Cacturne received Pursuit?

It is hardly the second coming of Absol, but now Cacturne would have a new niche. Admittedly, Psychic-type Pokemon outside of Jynx have been falling in usage lately. But I still feel that Cacturne has a good niche over Skuntank in its higher Atk stat and the ability to switch into Scalds reliably. Sure, Signal Beam is a fatal blow, but Cacturne wouldn't meant to switch in regardless: it would be meant to enter after a kill and put the opposing Psychic-type in a dangerous position with Pursuit and Sucker Punch. It still has the ability to set up Spikes, Swords Dance, and can even use Choice Band with a semi-reliable STAB Dark move now (wouldn't recommend it, but I may be wrong). Any thoughts? Like Zeb said, Cacturne was a highly underrated threat last round: this round I feel like it has been forgotten and perhaps something like Pursuit would change that.
I don't know that it would really help out Cacturne all that much, which is pretty unfortunate, really. It's a cool mon. The issue is that Jynx can get around both Sucker Punch and Pursuit and OHKO it with Ice Beam if it is behind a sub. Otherwise, it's a 50/50 mindgame as to what the opponent is going to do. Usually in these 50/50s, I find that a player who would bring in a Cacturne on a Jynx would often be too desperate to use Pursuit and would feel more comfortable using Sucker Punch. The good thing about this is that Sucker Punch will either OHKO Jynx or scare it out. Either way, you don't have to worry about it for the time being. The issue with Pursuit Cacturne is that most of the Psychic types who find their way into the tier are not Choice locked. If they were, just having the presence of Cacturne on your team would scare the opponent away from using Choice-locked Psychic moves. It would be a nice move for Cacturne to have, no doubt. I would even probably run it on most sets that are not running Spikes. I just don't know that it would have a huge effect on the meta (although I don't think that was what you were going for).


As for Tail Glow Charizard and Shadow Tag Lampent, I feel like my opinions on both of them have already been expressed well by others.

Having said that, here's another one that I think could be interesting. It's kind of inspired by zeb's original theorymon, and I think it would have a pretty huge impact on the metagame. What would the metagame be like if Alomomola would have risen to RU?

Obviously the first thing that comes to mind here is that hyper offense would be a shining force in the metagame. I mean, even with Alomomola, it already is. However, I don't really think we would suffer to much without the swollen Luvdisc. Personally, I haven't used Alomomola all in this metagame (although I have been running Hyper Offense, so this is a given). But even with Alomomola gone, we still have Tangela (who actually supports better physical bulk anyways), Weezing, and Misdreavus for physically bulky Pokemon--the latter two have great defensive typings for this metagame as well--in addition to other Wish passers in the form of Lickilicky, Audino, Togetic, and the eeveelutions.

No particular physical threat stands out any more with Alomomola gone, in my opinion, but I may be overlooking something. Anyways, feel free to share your thoughts. I think it would be interesting in the metagame.
 

skylight

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Alomomola's absence wouldn't affect the metagame as much as it would've last stage imo. At the time Weezing and Missy were used less, and both of Sawk's main sets reigned supreme, however, that isn't really the case now, and Weezing's resistance to CC, and Missy's immunity to it, as well as both of them being able to take/take out actual threats back in return makes them stand a little taller in this current metagame. Alomomola is also set up bait at this time, especially when Jynx is around, while the threat of Weezing using Flamethrower being a possibility is something that can make Jynx less likely to switch in, or the chance of switching into a Shadow Ball. Versus Alomomola it can just get free HP, set up a sub and sweep the opposing team. Not to question Alomomola's usefulness though, because it still can be good, but I find that the other two are more important now, while Alomomola struggles to keep up with the current metagame. Choice Band Sawk would possibly become more common, as Alomomola could still handle it pretty well (when switching in and even facing it), whereas Weezing and Missy have to worry about EQ, especially when SR is up. In turn, Mushy could probably rise a bit more simply to take Sawk. But if you have something like CM Jynx paired with Sawk (for Sawk to switch to that is), versus a Mushy that lacks CM then really you're done for. Although with that in mind it can probably do the same now but at least Alomomola has Toxic to predict Jynx coming in. Tangela would probably get more usage but still with the new drops in the tier and the popularity of other Pokemon to take on those drops, it's a lot harder for Tangela. If so I think Missy would become most popular out of this, due to being able to take an EQ, Burn and Pain Split.
 
I find this question really intriguing as it is going to happen anytime soon!

What if Lampent received Shadow Tag as its Dream World ability?

It would not be broken imo, the meta will just shift with Pokemon like Exeguttor, Sawk and possibly Jynx dropping in usage as well as bulky Water Types such as Ludicolo or Samurott as well as Skuntank rising in usage. The biggest downfall of Lampent is its speed, making it extremely easy to revenge kill. But I do concur to the fact that Lampent will still be a problem in today's metagame, as it can setup on the new drops, Scolipede and Primeape (if locked in the wrong move).

The next question is going to made by me because I haven't made one yet and I want to see your thoughts about this certain topic.

What if Floatzel receives Sheer Force as its ability?

Sheer Force Floatzel will probably make Floatzel more threatening than Samurott. Only dedicated physical walls can take the hit, such as Alomomola and Tangela; but the former could lose against a Sub+Toxic set and the latter can be hit hard with a boosted Ice Punch (its a guaranteed 2HKO with a layer of Spikes and SR). I think that Floatzel will still stay in NU though, but it is going to be a top tier threat indeed!
 
Q:What if Klang got Rapid Spin?
A:If Klang got rapid spin, it would be the best spinner in the tier. Unlike armaldo and torkoal, it isn't weak to SR, and unlike wartortle, it isn't generally useless outside of spinning. Klinag can also grab momentum with volt switch. The shift gear set can still sweep teams with proper support. Unfortunatly, Klang would be very easy to spinblock because it is weak without an attack boosting nature. Golurk can easily KO it with EQ, while misdrevous can cripple it with WOW. Still, klang will be the most reliable spinner.
 
Sheer Force Floatzel

Wow, that's one I haven't really thought of. Floatzel's good sweeping stats allow him to outspeed the tier's scary base 95s as well as Scolipede with maximum investment, meaning he has the opportunity to wreck the frail speedsters before they can do anything. Unfortunately, Floatzel is frail as well, so you need to kill them for certain, or they kill you. Sheer Force is the ideal way to fix this issue. Many of Floatzel's moves do have a secondary effect, such as Waterfall, Crunch, and Ice Punch, all of which are on the standard sets on Smogon. These attacks cover all of the tier for neutral damage at least, making Floatzel an immeadiate threat if he gets to boost those attacks with the measly cost of losing their secondary effect. I would say it would make Floatzel much scarier than Samurott due to its raw power, but I wouldn't go as far as to say it would outclass it. Samurott's superior bulk and access to Megahorn and Swords Dance, making him more intimidating as a booster than Floatzel. All in all, it would be a great change for Floatzel to get Sheer Force, and I would see it getting much more usage because of it.
 

Punchshroom

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Considering Floatzel's access to Bulk Up and SF Crunch (for Jynx) or Ice Punch (for Grasses) and even Switcheroo/Baton Pass, Samurott would be hard-pressed to outshow Floatzel in terms of offense and utility. Floatzel even boasts an immunity to Will-o-Wisp thanks to Water Veil.
 
Considering Floatzel's access to Bulk Up and SF Crunch (for Jynx) or Ice Punch (for Grasses) and even Switcheroo/Baton Pass, Samurott would be hard-pressed to outshow Floatzel in terms of offense and utility. Floatzel even boasts an immunity to Will-o-Wisp thanks to Water Veil.
You can't have Sheer Force and Water Veil at the same time :S
 
What if Dunsparce had access to Eviolite + Wish?

Dunsparce's evo is long overdue, imo. If it did get an evo (and assuming said evo wouldn't be NU itself), Dunsparce would get access to Eviolite. Dunsparce's defenses, while not great, are still a usable 100/70/65. With Eviolite, these would be boosted to the equivalent of 100/105/97.5, which is looking a lot better. Dunsparce would be able to come in on more powerful attacks, and start its paraflinching shenanigans.

252+ Atk Choice Band Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Eviolite Dunsparce: 169-201 (41.83 - 49.75%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

With max HP + 144 def, Dunsparce can avoid the 2HKO from something like Scolipede, and proceed to paraflinch it. Granted, Banded Scolipede may not be the most common of sets, and getting up a Wish would be difficult for Dunsparce in this situation, as it would have to come in at full HP and rely on purely parahax to be able to regain health.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Eviolite Dunsparce: 169-201 (41.83 - 49.75%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This is the minimum amount of investment required to avoid the 3HKO from Specs Jynx's Ice Beam. As with the above Scolipede though, Dunsparce struggles to do something AND come out of the situation, but these calcs demonstrate what kind of hard hits Dunsparce could take.

Wish would work excellently on Dunsparce as well, as it wouldn't have to run Protect to receive it itself, it can just paraflinch instead. Dunsparce's base 100 HP stat is pretty respectable as well, so Wish would definately make Dunsparce a better team supporter, allowing it to spread paralysis and pass respectable Wishes.

However, Dunsparce still likely wouldn't be used a lot due to the prominence of things like Sawk and Primeape. Jynx is also problematic for Dunsparce, as a defensively invested set can't take Ice Beam, and a specially defensive set can't take Psyshock.
 
@Punchshroom, on the topic of Sheer Force Floatzel - Floatzel's SF Crunch and Ice Punch are nice, but Samurott's Megahorn covers both psychic and grass types. It can OHKO even very bulky Tangela after rocks damage and a SD. With Aqua Jet to supplement his speed, Samurott would still bring some heavy competition.

What if Sawk and Golurk were to acquire Mach Punch?
They're both all about punching. Sawk for his name and theme, Golurk for his ability. They're both very hard-hitting 'mons, but are let down by a lack of speed.
 

skylight

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Wow I would love that. Sawk could see more usage over Primeape, given that people use Ape for its Speed, but with Mach Punch Sawk could guarantee that final blow over something like Kanga (making it no longer a safe switch in after something has died), because:

252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 254-300 (72.15 - 85.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If it's received prior damage then it's pretty much dead. Same goes for a Swellow which has just attacked, Zangoose loses out, even Jynx dies to it after SR:

252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Mach Punch vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 232-274 (84.98 - 100.36%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

And even its main competition, Primeape,

252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 157-186 (57.93 - 68.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Would face death after a few switch-ins with SR up. So I think Sawk with Mach Punch would definitely cause it to rise in usage, simply because it has STAB priority in Mach Punch, something that Primeape lacks. Primeape would still be used I'm sure, but it would provide another interesting option, plus stab priority vs ability to scout would probably come to mind as a reason to choose between the two.

Golurk on the other hand would be interesting, too, however I don't think it would benefit it as much as it benefits Sawk. If using a Banded Golurk I'd much prefer Drain Punch simply because you can recover HP, and there aren't too many instances where Golurk does need the extra priority (off the top of my head, although I can see the benefit versus Jynx for example - however if I were the Jynx user I wouldn't really switch into that because I'd be at risk of taking a Shadow Punch), while Sawk on the other hand definitely can make use of it and would make people reconsider their primary Fighting-type, I think.
 
What if Dunsparce had access to Eviolite + Wish?
I'm not sure Wish would be as needed since Dunsparce knows Wish, but either way I'm not sure how far it would go. It would be better, sure, but there is already a bevy of bulky Normal-types in the tier. Dunsparce fills a bit of a different niche though, so I think it would probably bow in around C tier.

As another thought...

What if Shiftry gained Hustle?

Two main moves would stand out in this case - Sucker Punch and Nature Power. Sucker Punch would become extremely powerful if Shiftry can avoid the miss chance. I can't recall if the Earthquake acquired from Nature Power is subject to the accuracy drop, but if it doesn't, Shiftry gets really really deadly to anything weak to Ground. Couple that with Shiftry learning Swords Dance and a decent if not amazing speed tier, and it could fit really well on a heavy-offense team.
 

skylight

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I might reply to the question before this later but I have something else in mind for now, in relation to a Pokemon which is pretty useful now.

What if Tauros had Scrappy?
Scrappy Tauros could be useful in a few ways. For one it could hit Missy and Haunter now without having to worry about Pursuit, and could 3HKO Missy with Double Edge, so if it had prior damage, Missy could be in trouble. Teams which lack Carracosta/Weezing/Alomomola/Tangela (the main ones that come to mind) would have less safe ways to switch into Tauros. Would you drop one of its other abilities for Scrappy? Do you think it'd benefit it more in this metagame than Intimidate would? Or do you think it'd be useless for the most part?
 
18:11 cherubagent i dont think
18:11 cherubagent id ever use scrappy tbh
18:12 *** HotNCold quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
18:12 cherubagent intimidate and sheer force are so good
18:12 Feranfell who hl'd me a long time ago
18:12 cherubagent and haunter folds to both rock slide and zen headbutt

Basically to expand on this, the only thing that Tauros benefits from if it runs Scrappy is hitting Misdreavus. And as you said:

could 3HKO Missy with Double Edge, so if it had prior damage, Missy could be in trouble.
which gives Misdreavus the opportunity to burn Tauros or to just hit it hard with Foul Play, or to Pain Split, etc. I just don't think that hitting one Pokemon justifies giving up Sheer Force and Intimidate, two abilities that in my opinion far outclass Scrappy.

OK you also hit Golurk harder than with anything else I suppose, but again, the greater utility of Intimidate in NU (Sheer Force is in my experience more suited for RU) outweighs the pros of using Scrappy :/
 

Molk

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First NU post in a while, damn

What if Stunfisk learned Volt Switch?

Although Stunfisk is a rare sight in today's metagame, the addition of Volt Switch to its movepool would significantly increase its usefulness, imo. Thanks to Stunfisk's great 109/84/99 defensive stats, unique typing, and low Speed stat, Volt Switch Stunfisk has the potential to be an excellent pivot, taking most neutral hits with ease and using its incredibly slow Volt Switch to bring its teammates in for free, giving the Stunfisk user a significant advantage in most situations. Unlike other Pokemon who currently carry moves such as U-turn and Volt Switch in NU, Stunfisk possesses a resistance to Stealth Rock, meaning its not worn down nearly as much by repeated Volt Switching. Furthermore, Stunfisk is capable of reliably setting Stealth Rock for its team as well, further augmenting its team support capabilities. Volt Switch would make Stunfisk's Choice Specs set much more effective as well, using it to escape its counters and scout potential switch ins while simultaneously doing a significant amount of damage to them, making these threats easier to break through later on, while still serving as an effective pivot because of its still excellent bulk and low Speed stat. So what do you think about Volt Switch Stunfisk? Just how useful do you think it would be with the addition of Volt Switch to its movepool?
 

Dell

majestic pride.
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Well, you probably wouldn't be using Masquerain. But there are always going to be Pokemon that are just plain outclassed by others. Watchog, for example, is never going to be the wallbreaker that Kangaskhan or Zangoose is. In a similar regard, Agility Girafarig will never be the same quality of Baton Passer that Ninjask is. While giving Butterfree Baton Pass would definitely push it above Masquerain, Masquerain's access to Intimidate and awesome moves like Hydro Pump still give it a niche in the tier. I was obviously inspired by Masquerain to make that theorymon, but I wasn't going out of my way to outclass it and make it worthless.

Anyways, I don't know that it would necessarily make it a higher tier Pokemon. Sure, it would be a much better one, but once again, I think comparing it to Ninjask is the best route to take here. Ninjask was a top tier OU threat in DPP because of the lack of team preview. You had to be prepared to handle it with your lead unless you wanted it to get up a free Substitute and continue to boost while you struggled to handle it. Butterfree's poor speed tier would still really hold it back, letter faster Substitute users handle it well, among other Pokemon. Seeing that it's in the team preview, you can handle it much better. Like faster Substitute Pokemon, Sap Sippers would also still be able to handle it. Miltank comes to mind as the best way to handle it in this manner. Anyways, Venomoth is higher tiered because while, yes, this is a great strategy, it also has much better stats to back it up. Besides this, usually Venomoth serves as more of a standalone sweeper with Tinted Lens in my experiences. Regardless, while it may move up with Baton Pass, it is still manageable in NU, and I don't know that it would automatically move up.
I see where you're coming from here, but I'm not sure if I could go about agreeing with a few of your points here. First off, as previously stated in the chat, it's true that while you won't be using Masquerain very often, it's still not within the case of teams that are somewhat dedicated towards its Baton Pass support. Therefore it necessarily would "outclass" Masquerain in the sense that it would have an indefinitely better support option within Sleep Powder and slightly higher Speed, making it much more difficult to stop. Even if you try to mention its way about going offensive, it's still going to be inferior to that of Butterfree because of Tinted Lens, Sleep Powder, and superior offensive stats and Speed.

Team preview really isn't as viable of an argument as people generally make it out to be, as for example, that didn't stop SmashPass or Venemoth from being banned and regulated to UU at the short time that they were in RU. If anything, it's actually a good thing for those kind of teams, as it allows you to basically scout your opponent's team and attempts that they would try to go about trying to stop your strategy. Also, it's worth noting that this tier doesn't have nearly as many viable phazers than that of the higher tiers and even then, the threat of Sleep Powder essentially uses them as setup fodder.

First NU post in a while, damn

What if Stunfisk learned Volt Switch?

Although Stunfisk is a rare sight in today's metagame, the addition of Volt Switch to its movepool would significantly increase its usefulness, imo. Thanks to Stunfisk's great 109/84/99 defensive stats, unique typing, and low Speed stat, Volt Switch Stunfisk has the potential to be an excellent pivot, taking most neutral hits with ease and using its incredibly slow Volt Switch to bring its teammates in for free, giving the Stunfisk user a significant advantage in most situations. Unlike other Pokemon who currently carry moves such as U-turn and Volt Switch in NU, Stunfisk possesses a resistance to Stealth Rock, meaning its not worn down nearly as much by repeated Volt Switching. Furthermore, Stunfisk is capable of reliably setting Stealth Rock for its team as well, further augmenting its team support capabilities. Volt Switch would make Stunfisk's Choice Specs set much more effective as well, using it to escape its counters and scout potential switch ins while simultaneously doing a significant amount of damage to them, making these threats easier to break through later on, while still serving as an effective pivot because of its still excellent bulk and low Speed stat. So what do you think about Volt Switch Stunfisk? Just how useful do you think it would be with the addition of Volt Switch to its movepool?
This idea sounds pretty cool, and gives teams another useful choice of a Electric and Flying type resist of their own as a Stealth Rock and momentum grabber with Volt Switch to choose from more often upon checking those myriad of threats. It's also the single Electric-type counter in the tier barring Eelektross, and it can deal good damage to most Pokemon that aren't Grass types in a Tank set, and while on the ends of the Specs' case it may seem somewhat inferior to that of Eelektross, it also has notably higher bulk and resists Stealth Rock, allowing it to gather higher longevity in general. As far as coverage moves go, Stunfisk would probably switch around between Surf (for Piloswine) and Hidden Power Ice depending on the team's needs.

Aside from that, I have a few more theorymon suggestions that I should bring about for the time being.

What if Ampharos received Sheer Force? Ampharos is a Pokemon that I've gone about trying to analyze a theorymon for as long as I can remember, so I feel that this is going to be quite an interesting one to talk about. Sheer Force is an ability that's often accompanied by bulky variants of Pokemon that are capable of dishing out significant damage, such as NidoKingdom, Feraligatr (coming soon), Braviary, and Tauros. Since Ampharos relates to them in the fact that it's big bulky, and can deliver quite a punch, I thought this Sheer Force would opt for the most suited idea as far as abilities go. Regarding this within the competitive aspect of Pokemon, this is a threat that is surely going to spark a lot of hype among top level player, as the sheer power that it obtains within Sheer Force simply passes such a massive punch to the point that it will heavily influence the way that people go about structuring their teams, thus defining the shape of the metagame into a whole other aspect, similarly towards how Rock Polish Landorus or Nidoqueen has done towards their respective tiers, as it also gets a solid power boost with most of its valuable offensive movepool such as Thunderbolt, Focus Blast, and Signal Beam. It's definitely a threat that allows it to shine from the many other Electric-types within the tier. A set that I will be speculating as of this debate will be as followed:



Ampharos @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid / Modest Nature
- Agility
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Focus Blast

This is probably the set that would receive the most notice with the Sheer Force ability, though if you agree otherwise or has some pretty cool ideas on your own, discussions about it would be quite nice to hear from. Based upon studying damage calculations and simply the metagame in its state overall, how much impact do you guys feel that this set would carry on in the current metagame? One of its defining niches is that it gains a solid chance of 2HKO'ing Regice and Lickilicky after Stealth Rock with Thunderbolt, which is quite notable in its own. The ability to take advantage of the common frail offensive teams that runs happy within the metagame with Agility and sweep a large portion of teams is also a pretty significant factor as well. Also, the lovable ability to negate Life Orb recoil is simply magnificent, considering it's solid bulk overall.

What if Lapras received Shell Smash? It's fairly obvious for it to qualify for such a trait like this, speaking of the evidence of its back. Otherwise, I believe that this is a significant upgrade that'll be sufficient to find its niche in the metagame that separates from other Pokemon of its kind. It's huge base stats of 130/85/80/85/95/60 allows it to easily gain a significant amount of setup opportunities, such as virtually any wall and Water type to think of. It also has STAB Hydro Pump and Ice Beam to boat, while gaining nice coverage with Thunderbolt, Ice Shard, Return, and Waterfall, allowing it to go mixed in a variety of ways or even Physical (a set with Waterfall, Return, and Ice Shard would come to mind), for the most part. It also outspeeds every other user of Shell Smash in the tier. While it has more bulk then all of the other users, Lapras also has weaker offensive stats to make use of as well. What do you think of its presence in the metagame?

What if Weezing received Sheer Force? As unexpected this suggestion may, I felt that it also makes some sense because of its wide variety of cool effects within its special movepool. It consists of options like Sludge Wave, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, and cool options like Will-O-Wisp and Destiny Bond. Seeing as these options will allow it to hit quite hard with its decent Special Attack stat and lots of moves with an added effect, what kind of sets would best benefit from this idea, and how useful would it affect its overall versatility in the metagame?
 

watashi

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sheer force weezing would be an offensive force, but the loss of levitate really hurts it defensively since it won't be able to wall any ground-types anymore and will probably lose to them if it uses poison/fire/electric coverage.
 
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