Theorymon Sessions

[Explorer]

What if Sawk got U-turn? It now has a move to hit Psychic-types very effectively, and would work great on a CS set (Close Combat/Stone Edge/Ice Punch/U-turn). It would likely increase usage of both Rotom-S and Eelektross, which both use Volt Switch pretty reliably, creating offensive Volt-Turn cores. Hazards would be even more important to include on Sawk teams, and Pokemon that cover its weaknesses such as Probopass and Golurk would also become more popular to set up Stealth Rock even more frequently.

Here is another question I am proposing:

What if Samurott got Swift Swim? This would be a huge boost to Rain teams, and there would be little reason to use Ludicolo over it (really just for STAB Giga Drain). Samurott could invest into both of its offenses heavily since not much speed investment would be needed. I could see any of these sets rising:

Full Physical: Swords Dance/Waterfall/Megahorn/Aqua Jet
Full Special: Hydro Pump/Ice Beam/Grass Knot/Hidden Power Fighting
Mixed: Hydro Pump/Megahorn/Ice Beam/Hidden Power Electric

Swift Swim would overall be a godsend for Samurott, and chances are, Ludicolo usage would also rise with it, but Ludicolo would be the Rain setter and Samurott the sweeper; Samurott's better offensive stats would make it preferred as a sweeper, and of course it can't SubSeed like Ludicolo can.

Here is a final one (for now):

What if Contrary had better distribution?

Right now, Spinda is the only NU Pokemon that gets Contrary outside of DW (except maybe Shuckle), so some people use Spinda just to abuse Contrary. Here are some NU Pokemon that would enjoy Contrary:

Sawk- Close Combat: +1 Def, +1 SpDef
Throh- Superpower: +1 Atk, +1 Def
Charizard- Overheat: +2 SpA
Zebstrika- Overheat: +2 SpA

Also, if Intimidate were to activate on a Pokemon with Contrary, it would get +1 Attack.

 

[Leafshield]

Sawk getting U-Turn as far as a flavor move can be debatable: on one hand, plenty of Fighting-Types, such as Infernape and Primeape, get it, but that seems more because they are apes, and therefore agile and animalistic, acting upon instincts of fight and flight. Sawk is more of a humanoid mon, as well as a combat specialist. I have a feeling that a Sawk wouldn't turn and run in the middle of battle. So, in that sense, It's not very flavorful. On a competitive view, it would send Scarf Sawk back up into its previous realm of dominance as the top CS Fighting-Type. One of the major things Primeape had over Sawk was a way to reliably hit Psychic-Types, and if Sawk received a way to do this, it would be, though an overused term in this tier, a 'godsend' to our blue friend.

A dated example, but an example nontheless:

252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk U-turn vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 196-232 (45.26 - 53.57%) -- 1.17% chance to 2HKO

CB Sawk now has the opportunity to do damage to Musharna, even though she isn't so relevant in the tier anymore. But, if CB Sawk can dent Musharna, that means it can dent Jynx on the switch-in, Hypno, Grumpig, and any other major Psychics in the tier.

I don't have time to comment on the previous ones, but i may do a synopsis on Sheer Force Ampharos, since that one sounds really cool.

 

[WhiteDMist]

What if Ampharos received Sheer Force?

Ampharos is already a potent attacker, though it does want a bit more power in order to break through common Special walls. Sheer Force gives it that power, and is far more reliable that Static (lol Plus). Thunderbolt and Focus Blast gain amazing levels of power, and already provide very nice coverage. Yes, I do agree that Agility Amapharos would probably be the best set; that said I would expect that defensive sets would still prefer Static. But for the offensive Agility set, previously it was a bit lacking in power even with a Life Orb. With Sheer Force, Ampharos can afford to run a Timid nature to outspeed Scarf Rotom-A. It'll still have one of the most, if not most, powerful Thunderbolts in the tier.

What if Weezing received Sheer Force?

I'm not sure that this would be all that helpful. Defensive sets really prefer Levitate in order to wall stuff like Golem and Piloswine reliably. Sure, either way MB Sawk will hit with Earthquake, but the difference is that so can everything else if you use Sheer Force. While the slightly higher power is nice, I also don't see what it has over Seviper except for the lack of Life Orb recoil and higher bulk. Seviper has more Speed and Switcheroo to cripple Special Walls as well, which in my opinion still gives it more of a niche over offensive Weezing. Being able to absorb Toxic Spikes IS a nice boon, I'll give you that; too bad they are still pretty rare.

What if Lapras received Shell Smash?

This one is something I can definitely can see being possible flavor-wise. I don't see much reason to go physical, when mixed and Special have such good coverage and higher overall power. Physical Lapras also has terrible coverage, and no reliable Ice STAB (seriously, no Icicle Crash?) Special Shell Smash is especially interesting because Lapras has such excellent coverage naturally that it can sweep teams very easily. However, it still has many of the same checks and counters that Gorebyss has; Regice, Lickilicky, Jynx, Ludicolo, Water Absorb Seismitoad, and Rotom-A just to name a few. It does better against some (Jynx, Ludicolo, Rotom-A) and worse against others (Lickilicky, Regice, Seismitoad). Also, I think this would help bring Gurdurr back into the spotlight with its very useful Mach Punch. Mixed sets are better at wall-breaking, so it definitely has a great niche over Huntail. I see a more Special oriented attacker with something like Return or Ice Shard being there to either take out many of the aforementioned Special Walls or pick off faster threats. Along with a bad defensive typing for the most part, I think Shell Smash Lapras would fit into the metagame just as easily as Gorebyss does.

What if Samurott got Swift Swim?

This would be a major boon for Samurott. While it is already a good Pokemon, this would help patch up its main vulnerability in its average at best Speed. While I don't think that physical sets need this as much with Aqua Jet (they would probably prefer to keep using Swords Dance tbh), Special sets now gain a huge advantage over other Water-types like Gorebyss. I doubt that this would make Ludicolo less effective, since it can get past Alomomola more easily. Still, it does much better against some of the new drops like Scolipede and Munchlax with its higher Special Attack and mono-typing.

 

[skylight]

What if Samurott got Swift Swim? This would be a huge boost to Rain teams, and there would be little reason to use Ludicolo over it (really just for STAB Giga Drain). Samurott could invest into both of its offenses heavily since not much speed investment would be needed. I could see any of these sets rising:

Full Physical: Swords Dance/Waterfall/Megahorn/Aqua Jet
Full Special: Hydro Pump/Ice Beam/Grass Knot/Hidden Power Fighting
Mixed: Hydro Pump/Megahorn/Ice Beam/Hidden Power Electric

Swift Swim would overall be a godsend for Samurott, and chances are, Ludicolo usage would also rise with it, but Ludicolo would be the Rain setter and Samurott the sweeper; Samurott's better offensive stats would make it preferred as a sweeper, and of course it can't SubSeed like Ludicolo can.

I think it'd be a LOT of fun right now. With Jynx in the tier (which can make use of Dry Skin in rain teams), Carracosta being very viable, and Ludicolo being still kinda good - rain teams can actually be pretty viable, and even more awesome with the otter getting a speed boost in rain. Even something like Specs or Band Samurott in rain could be pretty awesome to use and try. I think it'd probably go Special for the most part with SS, given that otherwise Alomomola could pose an issue and with rain up it probably won't wanna boost too much, and it can actually take Jynx on with HP Fighting or Megahorn, and it can fight through special walls with the rain boost to HPump, which is better than Alomomola trying to Scald it.

 

[Dell]

Nice analysis WhiteDMist, though I'd like to contend a little more about Lapras. I wouldn't list Rotom-A or Water Absorb Seismitoed as "checks" or "counters" in the sense of the category though, as Scarf Rotom-A is easily outspeed after the boost (Lapras has 60 base Speed as opposed to Gorebyss' 52 base Speed) to and Lapras can still hit Seismitoed with STAB Ice Beam while Seismitoed can't do much back to it, resulting in a solid 2HKO on even the most specially defensive varients of Seismitoed. Lickilicky is also a shaky one as well for the same reason as Seismitoed as well as it's swiftly 2HKO'd by Hydro Pump, but generally a superior option in terms of checking Lapras. Otherwise, I agree with you for the most part.

An interesting question would be: what item would Lapras be most likely utilizing?

What if Contrary had better distribution?

Two of the few Pokemon that I would be relatively comfortable seeing this with would have to be Altaria and Zebstrika. Altaria is especially interesting as it makes its Choice Specs set much harder to wall and it can actually make pretty viable use of a Choice Scarf set to function as a dangerous late game sweeper with Draco Meteor and a good 80 base speed. Zebstrika can make use of Overheat better with it, and would probably run Life Orb sets to make the most use out of its boosts with its already great speed stats.

What do you guys think of the idea of Contrary Altaria and Zebstrika?

 

[ryan]

Contrary Altaria

Contrary Altaria would be one hell of a force to be reckoned with in the NU tier. A lot of people say that Contrary Serperior can just slap on a Scarf and click Leaf Storm until it wins (because who cares about a resisted hit at +6?), and while I agree to an extent, Sap Sippers would have a field day with it. This is hardly this case with Altaria. Dragon has the best neutral coverage in the game when considering mono-attacking types. More importantly, the quality of Steel-type Pokemon in the tier is severely lacking. None of them have any reliable form of recovery, so picking these Pokemon off is not too difficult. The only thing that would really keep this Pokemon from being broken is its middling speed stat, making it susceptible to revenge kills by faster scarf Pokemon such as Rotom, Jynx, and Ice Punch Primeape. In addition to that, Piloswine would most likely rise in popularity due to its powerful Ice Shard. All in all, it would still be manageable within the tier, but it would undoubtedly make people think twice about it while teambuilding.

Contrary Zebstrika

Zebstrika would also benefit greatly from Contrary. While it may not be immediately so obvious like Altaria, it may honestly be better. The only thing holding it back at all in this metagame is its lackluster base 80 Special Attack. If Zebstrika had a way to boost its speed reliably, it would be a potent threat within the tier, being able to outspeed most of NU's most prominent threats and defeat them one on one. For the most part, it is only able to be revenged by those wielding either a Choice Scarf or a priority move, much like Altaria, except Zebstrika's speed allows it to utilize a different item. Life Orb, Expert Belt, and even Leftovers can be useful, as the latter-most increases its survivability--even if only to help it survive a Gurdurr's Mach Punch, a Swellow's Quick Attack, or a Piloswine's Ice Shard.

Overall, I think if any two Pokemon were to receive Contrary, these would be two of the standouts in NU who would likely appreciate it the most.

 

[Axa]

I think Contrary Zebstrika would cause a small rise in Flash Fire Pokemon, since it would be pretty obvious that they'd want to get a Sp. Atk boost as early as possible. Which could mean Zebstrika just hitting them with a Volt Switch or Thunderbolt instead.

Still, the Pokemon which benefit the most from Contrary would probably be most things with Close Combat/Superpower. I mean, Contrary Braviary with Superpower?

Just to make another possible option...

What if Wigglytuff recieved Prankster?

Poor Wigglytuff has recieved almost no love compared to other Normal-type pinks since its inception, with its ability to pass on gigantic Wishes stolen by Pokemon like Alomomola and let down by poor speed. With Prankster, Wigglytuff's gargantuan movepool comes into play. It can utilise numerous things like Wish, Dual Screens, Heal Bell, Endeavor, and perhaps the scariest of all, Stealth Rock. All that alone might make Wigglytuff one of the most unstoppable support Pokemon.

 

[bobbyvaporeon]

Prankster Wigglytuff would become a force in NU. with such a fantastic support movepool, including the only Priority hazards in the game, Wigglytuff would easily become one of the top mons in the meta.
Here's a speculation:
What if Combusken could use Baton Pass with Speed Boost?
Also, Swift Swim Ursaring?
Beartic gets Swift Swim, so it's not much of a stretch that Ursaring could get it. While the loss in power from Guts would be gone, this would fix the one thing wrong with Ursaring: it's speed. Ursaring would become a staple on rain teams in any tier. What do you think?

 

[Explorer]

What if Ursaring got Swift Swim? Swords Dance + 3 attacks sets would be everywhere. Considering that Rain teams are obviously rich in Water types, I see the following set as a possibility:

Ursaring (M/F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Nature: Adamant
-Return
-Swords Dance
-Ice Punch
-Cross Chop/Earthquake/Crunch/Aerial Ace

If you value defenses Bulk Up could also be used over Swords Dance, but I honestly would not do that very often. Ursaring is fairly versatile when it comes to attacks, so it can do a nice job of providing coverage.

What if Weezing gets Sheer Force?

In my opinion the defensive sets would still be better, because 85 base Special Attack is not exceptional, and 120 Base Defense + Will-O-Wisp makes it a top physical wall in NU. Here are the moves of note that would be boosted:

Fire Blast/Flamethrower
Psybeam
Shadow Ball
Sludge Bomb
Thunderbolt/Thunder

That is really it. Weezing could be decent offensively, but it would need a fair amount of team support since it is fairly slow. I could see Trick Room as a good friend for it since it synergizes well defensively with many Trick Room setters and provides coverage that would be less common on TR teams. Here is one idea for a set:

Weezing (M/F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 SpA
Nature: Quiet
IVs: 0 Spe IVs
-Sludge Bomb
-Fire Blast/Flamethrower
-Shadow Ball/Tunderbolt
-Explosion

This is designed as a Trick Room sweeper, letting Weezing be pretty fast and having great coverage. Sludge Bomb is Weezing's best STAB and gets a double boost (LO + Sheer Force). Fire Blast/Flamethrower is a mandatory coverage move to handle Steel types, and a few other things too (Bugs for instance). Shadow Ball is for the Psychic and Ghost-types running around everywhere, while Thunderbolt can be used against Water-types other than Seismitoad, as well as against less common threats such as Masquerain. Finally Explosion is a nice tool Weezing has, having a 325 BP with LO factored in, and killing Weezing when it's done its job. The nice thing is that if you can time the detonation on the last turn of Trick Room, you can bring in a new Trick Room setter unharmed (other than by entry hazards of course).

The caveat with this set (and any Sheer Force Weezing) is that Weezing loses its Levitate, and thus its immunity to Ground-type moves. Therefore, many opponents that carry Earthquake or Earth Power, especially Torterra or Camerupt, will be able to tear right through Weezing. Camerupt is also a great counter to this Weezing set in general, by the way.

 

[LivingRhino]

What if Combusken could use Baton Pass with Speed Boost?

Combusken with BP Speed Boost would be cool to try out. It will get the same options as Ninjask, except with more viable attack sets. It would be able to attack, and if you let it set up and baton pass, you'll be in for a treat. It would be golden on a BP team, but for now, I'm happy it's not a Baton Passer.

 

[Axelotl]

What if Combusken could use Baton Pass with Speed Boost?

Combusken is already a pretty underrated threat as it is, I've seen Combusken do some work late game. Baton Pass would definately be a benefit to Combusken, due to its ability to utilise boosts itself. It also gets SD which it can pass, so I think it could be efficient as a standalone sweeper with BP to get out of situations it can't handle and ensure that the boosts don't go to waste. Obviously priority is a problem for a set like that, but that goes for Combusken in general, so that's something that should be taken care of before Combusken attempts anything at all, really. If I had more time I would've tried to come up with a/some good partner(s), but I don't, so eh.

 

[Farobi]

It's me with another question, and I honestly am shocked that this is not asked yet.

What if Wartortle received Shell Smash?

Let's face it, Wartortle is weak and it is setup bait for Substitute users and some fast hazard setters. Shell Smash may change that. Wartortle still has a bit of bulk in it with its 59/80/80 defenses. The problem, though, is that Wartortle is still weak, even after a boost. A Base 65 Special Attack isn't something to be impressed about, but it is usable as Wartortle's job is to pull a spin off and beat Ghosts like Misdreavus and Golurk, and at +2, it can do just that. I think the standard offensive set will be @ White Herb Eviolite (252 SpA, 252 Hp or 252 Spd) with Shell Smash | Surf / Hydro Pump | Rapid Spin | Ice Beam / HP [Grass]. As you can see, even with SS, Wartortle still isn't overpowered due to having 4MSS, but I guess it can still do its job by trying to pull a spin off and support its team members. What are your thoughts about this guys?

 

[nyttyn]

What if Wartortle received Shell Smash?

It would probably slightly raise in usage. Slightly. 63/65 attacking stats are completely pathetic, and Shell Smash totally eats away at Wartortle's bulk without offering really much of anything at all in return. It has a kind of usable movepool I guess but...

+2 0 SpA Wartortle Hydro Pump vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Golurk: 438-516 (120.66 - 142.14%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It can beat Golurk I guess?


+2 0 SpA Wartortle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 139-165 (42.9 - 50.92%) -- 3.13% chance to 2HKO

Still not really getting past Misdreavus all that well.

oh yeah and it remains complete setup bait for super dangerous things

really this just seems exceedingly underwheming, and if you use a 252 SpA/252 Spd spread you're going to get buttfucked by everything under the sun so...

oh yeah and taunt weak etc.

Definitely boost Wartortle's viability, but it'll still remain a complete nonfactor.

Also white herb not in a million fucking years, you're still breaking even at -1 with a Eviolite if I'm doing my pokemath right and it gives you room to setup.

Edit: The more I think about this the more I'm actually convinced that Shell Smash would be actively detrimental to Wartortle, as it turns it from a regenless spinning piece of shit to a regenless defensively weak spinning piece of shit that needs a turn to set up to do anything, is still ass weak, and can't even phaze anymore. Wartortle is only C rank because it is literally one of three pokemon with at least somewhat usable stats and access to rapid spin in NU, shell smash would be completely outclassed by Foresight + Rapid Spin because at least then the spin is going to happen 99% of the time.

 

[Explorer]

What if Combusken could use Baton Pass with Speed Boost?

Combusken is already a pretty underrated threat as it is, I've seen Combusken do some work late game. Baton Pass would definately be a benefit to Combusken, due to its ability to utilise boosts itself. It also gets SD which it can pass, so I think it could be efficient as a standalone sweeper with BP to get out of situations it can't handle and ensure that the boosts don't go to waste. Obviously priority is a problem for a set like that, but that goes for Combusken in general, so that's something that should be taken care of before Combusken attempts anything at all, really. If I had more time I would've tried to come up with a/some good partner(s), but I don't, so eh.

Here are some:

Skuntank: Skuntank without boosts lacks the raw power to sweep, but now Night Slash and Poison Jab become much stronger and faster.
Torterra: Torterra now has no need to set up and can just start attacking with a combination of Wood Hammer, Earthquake, and Stone Edge. In the last slot, Crunch could be used for more coverage, or Synthesis could be used for healing.
Rampardos: Rampardos has high-attack low-speed syndrome, and with the speed boosts Rampardos can sweep entire teams (bar unlucky Stone Edge misses).

 

[Farobi]

+2 0 SpA Wartortle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 139-165 (42.9 - 50.92%) -- 3.13% chance to 2HKO

You didn't add SpA EVs, so I'm assuming if you add it, it will be a 2HKO.

Also white herb not in a million fucking years, you're still breaking even at -1 with a Eviolite if I'm doing my pokemath right and it gives you room to setup.

0SpAtk Misdreavus (Neutral) Shadow Ball vs 4HP/0SpDef Wartortle (Neutral): 35% - 41% (91 - 108 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
0SpAtk Misdreavus (Neutral) Shadow Ball vs 4HP/0SpDef Eviolite -1 Wartortle (Neutral): 35% - 41% (91 - 108 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

They actually practically do the same damage, so Eviolite would be the better item. Yeah, 252 Spd should be moved to HP because Wartortle's supposed to take the hits, not outspeed random shit like Rotom (though it can speed creep to outspeed Missy, though that would take a lot of investment and decrease the survivability of Wartortle). SS Tortoise can at least do something like knock out Golurk and Haunter as they switch into SS followed by Hydro Pump unlike defensive variants who 3HKO with Scald. I'm not saying Wartortle will be a big NU threat, but it does grant Wartortle a niche of being the best offensive spinner (lol) of the tier.

 

[ryan]

The main benefit for Shell Smash Wartortle would be that of Smashkoal; it would give it the ability to beat spinblockers. If you were to try and use Wartortle as a late game cleaner, I feel you would likely be underwhelmed. That said, I would probably run max SpA and enough Speed to outspeed the ghosts in the tier. This could probably be minimal investment; however I am too tired to look up the exact amount. Regardless, a more defensive spread on a Smash set doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Eviolite is probably still the best choice in item though.

I will say this: if Wartortle did get Shell Smash, it would make for a solid spinner in the tier.

 

[Dell]

Missing the point here, people.

You can't necessarily say that Shell Smash Wartortle is inferior to other Shell Smash users when it has something for it to benefit from its most notable role; the ability to beat every Ghost type in the tier so it can gain that opportunity to Rapid Spin. Sure Wartortle is weaker than Gorebyss and Carracosta offensively, but it isn't necessarily trying to sweep (or use Substitute; not sure where that idea came from). It just utilizes Shell Smash to aid its way of breaking though spin blockers that would otherwise make its job harder. For that reasoning, the only Pokemon that you reserve the right to compare it to would be Shell Smash Spinning Torkoal, who Wartortle would actually outshine in that regard because of its higher speed (allowing it to outspeed Haunter which Torkoal cannot) and better typing matchup against Stealth Rock users.

With that being said, I don't understand why Wartortle would still be utilizing no Special Attack EV's when part of what its doing is breaking through walls and spinblockers so it can safely Rapid Spin; therefore doing its job. You might as well actually go fully offensive since you still have decent bulk with the Eviolite and actually pose as an offensive threat after the boost, which is what you're supposed to be doing if you're using a move like Shell Smash.

In summation, Shell Smash Wartortle would be a very useful threat for offensive teams that needs a way to reliably break through physical walls and Ghost types, with the nifty addition. It would easily take the title as the best Rapid Spinner in the tier (and even Defensive Wartortle still has that title, technically) and can easily threaten and sweep through unprepared teams just like Torkoal, Gorebyss and Carracosta can (but once again, it won't be Wartortle's primary role, but it can happen) and it still has pretty decent opportunities to setup as it has better mixed bulk than the three, gaining it more diverse setup opportunities. It also can outspeed Rotom-A after the boost, which is nice.

 

[Punchshroom]

No longer would little Wartortle be the infamous weakling setup fodder it once was, as it still can retain its bulk via Eviolite even with no defensive investment, and when it chooses to ditch it's defenses it exchanges that for double the speed and power, enough to crush every spin blocker (Shedinja lol) and other not blazingly-fast threats.

On another note, Shell Smash Water Spout XD

 

[skylight]

Thing is though, while it's there to beat spinblockers... it can just do that by Foresight and Scald on its normal set. Shell Smash can give it something unique, sure, but I don't think it'd make it that much greater or any more useful than it already is. Shell Smash would just decrease its defences so the ghosts can actually attack back (or Taunt it if they are already in). On the other hand, if it foresights on the switch, it can spin, then Scald and potentially cripple them, especially if it's like Golurk. However, in this speed-based metagame, with SS, a lot can actually outspeed it even with the speed boost, so even after it's done its job, it still will ultimately be not making much of a difference to an opposing team, compared to if it was defensive and could actually Scald and burn something, which is useful in this metagame versus stuff like the new physical drops for example.

I just think that in both a defensive and an offensive way it's better off without SS. However, SS can be useful in some situations, and could be used but for the most part what it has already would likely be better.

 

[ryan]

I know this was brought up recently, but with the new meta, I thought it might be interesting to discuss this again.

What if Pinsir had Megahorn?

miniheracross

Pinsir is a really cool Pokemon. One of the biggest things holding it back (aside from not being a Fighting type u_u) is that its strongest STAB move is X-Scissor. Sawk can pummel through opponents with his powerful Close Combat. Samurott can blast foes away with Hydro Pump. Shoot, even Togetic has Double Edge.

Would Megahorn really set Pinsir apart, or would it continue to sulk in B-Rank? Here are some calcs!

Against Musharna:

Hide

252Atk Pinsir (Neutral) X-Scissor vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Musharna (+Def): 46% - 55% (204 - 242 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 8% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.

252Atk Pinsir (Neutral) Megahorn vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Musharna (+Def): 70% - 83% (306 - 362 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Against Tangela:

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252Atk Pinsir (Neutral) Megahorn vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Tangela (+Def): 50% - 59% (168 - 200 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Against Alomomola:

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252Atk +2 Pinsir (Neutral) Megahorn vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Soundproof Alomomola (+Def): 59% - 69% (316 - 373 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

This calc is at +2, so it would imply a Swords Dance boost, of course.

While the calcs are pretty cool, one thing still does concern me about this idea; Pinsir's speed tier. Faster scarfers (read: most scarfers in this meta) will be able to outspeed and often net a kill, especially after Stealth Rock damage. In addition to that, should Pinsir choose to run an SD set, it's going to be slower than even more Pokemon than a scarf set would.

The main redeeming factor for Pinsir is that it can break down some of the tier's most prominent physical walls. I feel like its Choice Scarf set would still be very strong, but a Life Orb or Expert Belt set with Swords Dance would probably be the better one to run. It can even run Mold Breaker so that it can EQ the newly popular Weezing.

EQ against Weezing:

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252Atk Expert Belt +2 Mold Breaker Pinsir (Neutral) Earthquake vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Weezing (+Def): 97% - 114% (324 - 381 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 82% chance to OHKO.

Anyways, how do you think Pinsir would fare in the new meta if it had a stronger STAB move? I definitely think it would improve the quality of the Pokemon, but is it enough to make it a potent threat in spite of the new drops and the new trends?

 

[scorpdestroyer]

What if Gothorita got Baton Pass?

Even with Shadow Tag, the Goth doesn't get much usage. While it has decent bulk with an Eviolite, it's offenses are low and cannot KO many of the threats it is needed to trap and kill. Even after that, Gothorita's usefulness is pretty limited. However, with Baton Pass, Gothorita can turn into a supporting mon that can come in on weak threats and Encore it into a safe move, before proceeding to set up and pass the boosts to someone else. How will this affect Gothorita's usage?

Also, if the likes of Plusle and Musharna get Baton Pass, I don't see why not Goth.


Also, SS Wartortle will become much more viable and more used than the other spinners, especially without a Stealth Rock weakness like the others have. It also has respectable bulk before the smash so it can still wall.

 

[skylight]

What if Gothorita got Baton Pass?

Even with Shadow Tag, the Goth doesn't get much usage. While it has decent bulk with an Eviolite, it's offenses are low and cannot KO many of the threats it is needed to trap and kill. Even after that, Gothorita's usefulness is pretty limited. However, with Baton Pass, Gothorita can turn into a supporting mon that can come in on weak threats and Encore it into a safe move, before proceeding to set up and pass the boosts to someone else. How will this affect Gothorita's usage?

I think Gothorita would become so much more better than it is (not that it isn't already useful). Not only is it great at trapping things (something like Weezing for example or Jynx locked into Psyshock or something, or even Alomomola) right now, the chances to set up +6 to something like Jynx (which people feel is already strong) would be kind of scary. Same would apply to Zard and Serperior, too.

 

[ryan]

The thing about Gothorita is that while its defenses may not allow it to set up on any given Pokemon, with Shadow Tag, it doesn't have to worry about its matchup against the whole tier. It could run a dedicated Baton Pass set along the lines of Calm Mind/Rest/Baton Pass/Psychic|Substitute and just go to town on certain opponents. Pokemon such as Alomomola and Lickilicky come to mind as ones that cannot even break a sub and have to hang out while Gothorita takes advantage of their low attacking stats.

Since sweeping with Gothorita is still fairly difficult in spite of Shadow Tag, it can pass the Calm Mind boosts to something that would appreciate them far more.

Anyways, I think it would be a lot more difficult to handle with Baton Pass. Needless to say, I'm happy that it doesn't have it~

Edit: Sleep Talk would not be preferable with Baton Pass. :|

 

[Dell]

Cool analysis on Gothorita.

I guess I'll try a defensive suggestion this time.

What if Munchlax received Slack Off? Munchlax would make sense with this move since like its evolution Snorlax, it often eats a lot before taking a good sleep and just generally happens to be lazy otherwise. Under competitive settings within the tier, at least in my opinion it appears to face a lot of competition if not outclassed by Lickilicky or Miltank as a bulky Normal-type due to its lack of reliable recovery to make use of its solid defenses and Thick Fat ability (not to mention near un-disruptive Special Defense). A specific reliable recovery would definitely allow it to stand out among otherwise as a standalone support Pokemon with the ability to deal decent damage with its STAB moves, coverage, and even stall out other offensive and defensive Pokemon. How would Munchlax fare in the current metagame with the addition of Slack Off in its disposal?

 

[Bummer]

How would Munchlax fare in the current metagame with the addition of Slack Off in its disposal?

Besides replacing Rest, it would also open up another moveslot where Sleep Talk used to be, which gives the usual set a lot more room for variety. Toxic, Curse, Counter or any offensive move to add to its coverage would be a welcome sight, increasing its threat rate and longevity at the same time. It would, however, be vulnerable to Toxic since Rest isn't around to cure it, so any stand-offs against other walls would not always pay off if they carried that move. But being able to withstand even the most insane special attacks, and then relax itself back to health, would make it even more prominent than it is now, and would be banned back into RU before giving us time to get used to it.


Here's something I mentioned briefly on IRC today:

Heatmor is a rather bizarre creature, and not only in appearance, but despite being found late in-game, it doesn't have much to threat with. 97/105 offenses are good, but not great, but is made even worse with a puny 65 base speed. Flash Fire is a good ability, giving it an immunity and a possibly means to get a free boost, but it also has access to Gluttony, even though that ability is generally left untouched as he has little means to make use of it. Which brings me to my point.

What if Heatmor received Belly Drum?

With it, maximizing its attack and activating its berry would both become accomplished in the same turn, and if Linoone can do it, Heatmor could as well, although the Stealth Rock weakness certainly bites. Its physical movepool, however, isn't as impressive, as its strongest fire move is Fire Punch. But together with Thunderpunch for coverage and the invaluable Sucker Punch to deal with faster foes, would it have sufficient tools to aim for a sweep? You be the judge.