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Counter that Pokemon - Mk IV [FINAL MATCH - Team 1 won!]

Just a note, I'm busy today so the slate is coming in 8-10 hours; sorry about the delay. I'd ask everyone that posted two or more sets to make clear what is their submission to be slated, since as you all know, you can have only one. For example, I can't distinguish if the "main" suggestion of Neliel is Seismitoad or Gastrodon (while for Alexwolf he already made it clear). Thank you.
 
vyomov said:
Although I'm not allowed to post another set, I do feel that Golurk is an admirable counter to both Zapdos and Terrakion.
With the smogon OU set(http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/golurk/ou) and taking calculations, 0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Golurk: 146-174 (38.21 - 45.54%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Terrakion has no good option vs Golurk:
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Golurk: 109-129 (28.53 - 33.76%) -- possible 4HKO
In sharp contrast, Golurk has good options against both of these pokemon:
80 Atk Golurk Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 306-360 (94.44 - 111.11%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO
80 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 192-226 (50 - 58.85%) -- 72.66% chance to 2HKO
This essentially means that Golurk can switch in on a Thunderbolt/Close Combat, set up SR and wreak havoc.
I think Golurk is a viable solution because Terrakion can do NOTHING against it and after a CC Golurk can switch in and sweep.
If Terra goes for Stone Edge after a defense decrease(via CC before Golurk switched in), 80 Atk Golurk Earthquake vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 456-536 (140.74 - 165.43%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This is why I claim Golurk is best: it has ready answers for both Zapdos and Terrakion, can freely switch in on Volt Switch, CC or Quick Attack and can prevent Zapdos from Roosting(EQ OHKOes if zapdos roosts)
Click to expand...

As I see a lot of people have put up multiple sets but only one for voting, I have decided to put up my set for voting(not Whimsicott)
golurk.jpg

Golurk @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Fist
EVs: 80 Atk / 252 HP / 176 Def
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Shadow Punch
- Stealth Rock
As I stated above earlier, Golurk is a good counter for Stone Edge(not taking much damage from the attack) and can OHKO with Earthquake(if it comes in after a Close Combat then guaranteed OHKO)) as well as a good counter for Zapdos. It also allows us to set up Stealth Rock, deterring pokemon like Weavile from being chosen for team 1. Shadow Punch deters pokemon like Alakazam and takes care of psychic types in general as well as ghost types. Ice Punch is a deterrent to pokemon like Garchomp and Dragonite(to name a few) and E-Quake takes care of any Rock pokemon like Terrakion.
The disadvantages of this set? Weakesses to Dark, Water and Grass mean that it will need a Steel type to form a defensive Core, although Slowbro can take Water-types all day long. Maybe Bisharp might form a good core with Golurk, resisting Dark and Grass and Golurk covering the fighting and ground.
Also, I would like to comment on some of the sets that have been proposed.
Firstly, Gastrodon, Swampert and Seismitoad while good sets cannot handle a grass-type or even a surprise HP-grass on any decent pokemon. Volcarona Giga Drain can ohko all three. More importantly, Swampert(the best set out of the three Water/Ground) is REALLY slow and thus cannot outspeed HP grass on most.
Garchomp is a big no simply because of Weavile: Weavile Ice Shard OHKOes Garchomp. On the other hand, this is the damage it does to Golurk: Ice Shard: 38.74 - 45.54%(3HKO). Essentially even if Weavile switches in to Golurk, Golurk has enough bulk to take a hit and STAB back with E-Quake. More importantly though, Golurk has SR to dissuade Team 2 from picking Weavile.
Jirachi is definitely a good idea because of the Paraflinching. The only issue with Jirachi is that, as alexwolf himself mentioned, being a defensive pokemon limits Team 1's offensive capabilities.
Jirachi does make the team even more weak to Volcarona though(Giga Drain for Slowbro, Fiery Dance for Jirachi). What's worse, Fiery Dance has chances to boost SpA so Jirachi can't keep Wishstalling because after a single boost: +1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 152+ SpD Jirachi: 413-486 (102.22 - 120.29%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Hell, after a Quiver Dance, Fiery Dance is OHKO so even if Jirachi switches in on a quiver dance, game over.
Golurk on the other hand can OHKO with Earthquake.
Conkeldurr appeals to me because of the ability to take a hit like Jirachi and is also not Volcarona weak.
I hope to see further discussion. As of now, I am withdrawing Whimsicott and nominating my Golurk set.
 
relaunched said:
I do have a suggestion for Jirachi's moveset though, and that's Body Slam. Since Slowbro already has Thunder Wave to spread paralysis, Jirachi can dissuade Ground-type switch-ins like Gastrodon (A PROBLEM), with a 60% paralysis chance. Though the 60% chance isn't great normally, it's much more useful to hit Ground types since we already have 100% para move, and a few timely flinches can spell the end for even Gastrodon, as Heist mentioned. Gliscor also won't want to switch in to this Jirachi without activating its Toxic Orb as paralysis will totally cripple it.

Thoughts about this? Why isn't Jirachi a good choice? And is there a good reason to keep Thunder Wave on your Jirachi, alexwolf?
Click to expand...
It is true that Slowbro already has Thunder Wave, but i wanted Thunder Wave on Jirachi too, as if we went with Body Slam and Zapdos didn't get paralyzed on the first hit then Zapdos can 3HKO with Heat Wave. I am definitely considering Body Slam on Jirachi for Pokemon such as Garchomp and Landorus-T, however i would like some more input...
 
Thunder Wave vs Body Slam

I prefer Body Slam because it does some damage: the Jirachi set looks simply TOO defensive at this point.
 
alexwolf said:
It is true that Slowbro already has Thunder Wave, but i wanted Thunder Wave on Jirachi too, as if we went with Body Slam and Zapdos didn't get paralyzed on the first hit then Zapdos can 3HKO with Heat Wave. I am definitely considering Body Slam on Jirachi for Pokemon such as Garchomp and Landorus-T, however i would like some more input...
Click to expand...

I'm a big fan of Body Slam Jirachi because it can ruins the ground-types that have already been mentioned. I'm still high on Amoonguss and all, but if people feel like we need a rock-resist this bad, then I would have to go with Rachi just because the pixie is a fucking pest to deal with. I don't feel like the pick even has to be offensive which might be why I am still in favor of it being picked. I'm also still a fan of Coballion but it has no shot at living a CC.

I can't understand the love for Garchomp or any ground-type that is weak to ice when we already have Landorus.
 
Yeah I prefer body slam too. Opposing Landorus and chomp are much more easily felt with if paralysed. Jirachi, conk and cobalion are my fav sets so far as they don't compound weaknesses and jirachi offers utility and mementum while cobalion has rocks and momentum and conk hits hard. Also just pointing out that there will be no surprise hp grass because we know it's coming.

Ps. Soz if my last message sounded like a strop. It was actually a question to find out if slowbro had any clear advantages bar recovery.
 
Ok changing Thunder Wave to Body Slam, as it seems that the majority here wants it.

Also after thinking about it better, i like a lot Cobalion too!
 
I will be voting for Heists Jirachi for a few reasons

#1: It supports the team really well. Paralysis support is going to help any sweeper we add to the team (and if prior experience is anything to go by another sweeper is very likely), and Jirachi excels at paralysing or speed dropping Team #2.

#2: Its hard to counter, but what counters it is widely known. This, I feel, is a strong point,. Its true that Gastrodon and Ferrothorn counter this Jirachi, it is like Terrakion in that in order to beat it, defensive checks are best. I don't see any problem with being weak to Gastro or Ferrothorn, especially when both these pokemon can be countered very easily, and Team 1 can use this to our advantage. Ferrothorn for instance, is a pile of set up bait and it wouldn't be hard for us to beat Gastrodon either. Heck, Ferrothorn can simply be trapped with Magnezone if it came down to it.

#3: Its not choice locked. With the exception of CB Chomp, pokemon such as Metagross and Swampert are Choice Locked, and can often be rendered as set up fodder. With Chomp, its a little different since it can usually rape everything with Outrage (and steels can be easily trapped) but I do worry that Swampert and CB Meta are easily exploited.
 
Alright, let's go straight into voting. I'm sorry for The Unlucky one, but he had like six hours to post and didn't, and we have alreday plenty of alternatives.

Little note: I always slated everything that was proposed without really considering if they were reasonable suggestions or not (the unreasonable ones won't get voted anyway, most of the times), however I'd like to ask everyone to think twice before posting. I'm not trying to discourage newcomers, obviously, but some of the proposed suggestions are quite bad to me and the submitter didn't addressed any concerns about it (for example, what does it do to put us in an advantageous position compared to Team 2?). Let's try to avoid this in the future, please.

Here is the slate:


To vote, just send a PM to Melee Mewtwo, reporting both in the title and the body "CtP: your preference" where your preference is selected from the previous list. You will have 24 hours to vote. As usual, feel free to use the thread for further discussion if you have any.

Go!
 
ginganinja said:
#2: Its hard to counter, but what counters it is widely known. This, I feel, is a strong point,. Its true that Gastrodon and Ferrothorn counter this Jirachi, it is like Terrakion in that in order to beat it, defensive checks are best. I don't see any problem with being weak to Gastro or Ferrothorn, especially when both these pokemon can be countered very easily, and Team 1 can use this to our advantage. Ferrothorn for instance, is a pile of set up bait and it wouldn't be hard for us to beat Gastrodon either. Heck, Ferrothorn can simply be trapped with Magnezone if it came down to it.
Click to expand...
Although I agree that forcing defensive picks is an advantage as they are easy to take advantage of, defensive picks that can set Spikes are ones I think we should heavily avoid. Because we specifically search for counters to counters to.... in this project, giving any opportunity to the opponent to punish the massive amounts of switching will put us at a major disadvantage. If it were any other defensive pick I would agree with you but the Spike setting Ferrothorn is something we want to discourage.
 
ok i voted for heist's jirachi, of the options available it's the hardest to counter

Heist said:
unfortunately this jirachi does not exactly force out zapdos but he can always break through it with some flinches right lavos
Click to expand...

how did i know you were gonna say that...oh the memories
 
At this point of time I would like to make a sales pitch for Golurk here since it has been the least discussed
Glurk has many things going for it: It can set up Stealth Rock, resists everything Terrakion has(immune to two, resists Edge) and can switch in on a Volt Switch as well, rendering it useless.
Terrakion has to switch out in fact after being locked into Choice Band, allowing Golurk to set up SR for sure
Golurk's movepool is quite good as well, with Shadow Punch, Earthquake as well as Ice Punch hitting a large portion of the tier for super-effective damage.
Golurk is also a spinblocker and can support the team well.
The fact that it is a free switch in on Terrakion is the major part, although HP Ice from Zappy doesn't do much either
This is why I'm voting for Golurk, an underrated Pokemon with huge potential if used correctly.
 
if by "hp ice from zappy doesn't do much" you mean "hp ice from zappy 2hkos", then yes, it doesn't do much. i understand that's golurk's kinda cool because it resists/is immune to both terrakion's stab moves, but it's so easily countered (hello pursuit bait) and it's gonna have trouble switching into anything not named terrakion on the other team. plus since they know that you know their terrakion is cb, they can just send in terrak to scare you out to golurk and use the opportunity to double into an advantageous position, which sucks. in a project called "counter that pokemon" i don't think we should be selecting pokemon that are blatantly simple to counter, but that's just me...
 
Well, if we really wanted Golurk we would have picked it last round since it doesn't need Slowbro to beat Terrakion.

Edit: Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying Halcyon. We didn't vote it in last round so it seems silly to do so this one.
 
Melee Mewtwo said:
Well, if we really wanted Golurk we would have picked it last round since it doesn't need Slowbro to beat Terrakion.
Click to expand...

Honestly, if we're picking a Ground type, I would say Garchomp is a better choice. We face the same problem with a Golurk pick (Weavile) as we do with a Garchomp pick. In fact, Weavile wouldn't even need to use Ice Punch over Ice Shard since Night Slash can deal with Golurk anyway. So honestly, I don't see why Golurk would be a good choice at all.
 
I vote for cobalion, volturn, SR, no setup bait, rock resist (users obssesion for rock ressist lol) and no weak for some threats like weavile...
 
Lavos Spawn said:
if by "hp ice from zappy doesn't do much" you mean "hp ice from zappy 2hkos", then yes, it doesn't do much. i understand that's golurk's kinda cool because it resists/is immune to both terrakion's stab moves, but it's so easily countered (hello pursuit bait) and it's gonna have trouble switching into anything not named terrakion on the other team. plus since they know that you know their terrakion is cb, they can just send in terrak to scare you out to golurk and use the opportunity to double into an advantageous position, which sucks. in a project called "counter that pokemon" i don't think we should be selecting pokemon that are blatantly simple to counter, but that's just me...
Click to expand...

0 SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Golurk: 146-174 (38.21 - 45.54%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So how is it a 2HKO???
Secondly, even if they do that, we get a free turn to set up Stealth Rock.
Even if they switch out to Weavile, we can just Earthquake
These are the calcs:
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Golurk: 312-368 (81.67 - 96.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So Golurk can take a hit!
Even if Weavile switches in, Equake hits hard and since Weavile can't OHKO anyways, Golurk can always OHKO back.
After Stealth Rock damage, Equake OHKOes Weavile
Garchomp is not better than Golurk because it a) Doesn't setup Stealth Rock(preventing our team from becoming Volcarona weak) ,b) Does not act as spinblocker for said Stealth Rock, c) Is OHKOed by Weavile unlike Golurk d) Is 4x weak to Ice and e) In no way deters Volcarona from setting up as even if Garchomp switches in on Volcarona , after a Quiver Dance, +1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 337-398 (94.13 - 111.17%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Golurk forces the other team to a) Have a rapid spinner and b) Have another pokemon just to deal with Golurk which severely limits their attacking options
Garchomp is in no way a switch in on Terrakion: 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 306-360 (85.47 - 100.55%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
On the other hand Golurk takes .... wait for it.. 0 Damage from Terrakion Close Combat
So don't tell me that Garchomp is better without backing up with calculations first
 
Vyomov, you're neglecting a ton of stuff in your post. First of all, Garchomp hits much harder with a Choice Band or Swords Dance than your Leftovers Golurk, and it's much harder to wall because of excellent STAB Dragon moves and good coverage. Also, there are plenty of Stealth Rock setters in the metagame and the hazard setters tend to get chosen later in CtP so that they can take advantage of the opponent's team to set up hazards as easily as possible, though an early Stealth Rock pick isn't the worst thing either, if it happens to work well against the opposing team anyway. Also, you talk about how Golurk can take a hit from Weavile, but that's not the right way to think about it, because the opponent can choose all kinds of things to take advantage of Golurk, many that are better choices than Weavile. The most fearsome one is Gyarados, which none of Team 1 does very well against right now anyway. (And yes, Gyarados isn't a bad counterpick to Garchomp either, but it just walks all over Golurk.) Even Slowbro Thunder Wave is useless if we use a ChestoRest set. It's bulky and sets up Dragon Dances easily, and it's not the kind of pick you want to give the opponent. Finally, you seem to have missed the point of Garchomp. Garchomp won't be taking a Close Combat in this match except as death fodder. Here's our general plan when Terrakion comes in:

1. Switch in Slowbro.
2. If Terrakion chooses Close Combat, stay in and do stuff. If it uses another move, switch to Garchomp (or maybe Landorus if X-Scissor is used). Slowbro heals off damage with Regenerator.

This is why people have been talking about a Rock resist for the last few pages of the thread. We don't need a switch-in to Terrakion specifically. We need a switch in to Stone Edge (and X-Scissor, to a lesser extent).
 
@Relaunched:
Firstly, Golurk resists rock as well
Secondly, Gyarados can be taken care of by an HP electric on any pokemon Team 1 has in the future.
Gyara does not want to switch in once SR is up so Golurk actually helps defeat Gyara
Also consider this. You switch to Garchomp: team 2 switches to weavile and OHKOes with Ice shard.
Weavile is a far bigger threat because, if we choose Garchomp, Weavile takes three pokemon of team 1 with ease which is tantamount to saying team 2 has VERY high chances of winning.
The reason I mentioned Weavile was because it already takes two pokemon in our team with ease
Also, the team becomes Volcarona weak.
As I showed, if Garchomp switches in on Volcarona and it sets up, we are dead.
On the other hand, Golurk can as a lead set up SR, shutting out Volcarona
Stone Edge? These are the calculations:
Golurk: (28.53 - 33.76%)
Garchomp: 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 127-150 (35.47 - 41.89%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
That means that after 3 layers of spikes Garchomp is KOed even if it switches in on Terra Stone Edge whereas Golurk isn't: Simple proof that Golurk is better for the current purposes
We already have one 4x pokemon weak to ice: do we really need another???
Golurk also adds coverage vs Psychic types as well as all the types weak to ice(flying, etc)
Golurk isn't completely bad vs Gyarados: 80 Atk Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 121-144 (32.26 - 38.4%) -- 5.08% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
The point I was making by saying Garchomp is a rock resist was that it shouldn't ever have to take a close combat, not that it is needed as a rock resist. You can't say "Golurk helps defeat Gyara" really because there will be a Stealth Rock user on our team anyway. You seem to think Golurk is so great because it sets up SR, but we will have an SR user on both teams by the end of this project. I agree that Weavile is a big threat, but it's not a bigger threat than Gyarados, which can legitimately sweep a team if it gets set-up turns. Weavile isn't getting any set-up turns given our team so far, and it's much frailer than Gyarados. Also, how is this team Volcarona weak with Garchomp? Volcarona can't really switch in on any of our Pokemon (except a Fire Fang locked Garchomp I guess), and it really can't do shit if Stealth Rock is up, which as I said will happen with or without Golurk. Also if you think about it it's highly unlikely that 3 layers of spikes go up in such a project as this, where the teams are in general fairly well-prepared for each other.

I do agree that Weavile is a big enough threat that we should not be picking Garchomp, but rather SpD Jirachi. But sorry, Golurk is still not as good a pick as Garchomp in this situation.
 
The issue with your argument, vyomov, is that you cite Stealth Rock in all of your calculations against Team 2:

Even if Weavile switches in, Equake hits hard and since Weavile can't OHKO anyways, Golurk can always OHKO back.
After Stealth Rock damage, Equake OHKOes Weavile

But then neglect to cite Stealth Rock when mentioning what other Pokes do to Golurk:

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Golurk: 312-368 (81.67 - 96.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So Golurk can take a hit!

Golurk can barely take a hit from Weavile's Ice Punch or Night Slash, as it is, and if you toss in Stealth Rock, it pretty much just can't. It's a cool Pokemon, has some useful qualities, but it compounds Team 1's ice weakness, does not deter Weavile (or any faster Pokemon with standard boltbeam coverage, as boltbeam hits Team 1 super effective at the moment), doesn't hit fast enough on its own, and is pretty dead weight once it puts down rocks.
 
The only reason I did not cite SR vs Golurk is: a) Golurk takes minimal damage from SR(Leftovers) and Weavile is OHKOed by Earthquake
The main reason I support Golurk or any other Ghost type is that it can freely switch in onto a CC and E-quake back
It also deals with Zapdos(zapdos cannot volt switch away whereas Iron Fist boosted Ice Punch hits hard)
 
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