5th Gen Concept Theoreymoning

I don't think you guys know what a concept is or should be. A concept isn't an ability, or a type of Pokemon, or something that dictates a part of the process. It's an idea. It's broad. It's not specific in the least. The closest thing to compare it to is a role in the metagame. Cloud Nine mixed sweeper is the exact opposite of a concept, its a fan-made mon that just needs art. A concept is something like "Kingdra of the Sun", where you can achieve it in an almost infinite number of ways at any point in the polls. Cloud Nine mixed sweeper means: Cloud Nine as the sole ability, high and even special attack and attack, high speed, and good coverage moves. That isn't a concept, thats most of a Pokemon.

We got a bit out of hand there. Anyway, would an example of a concept be 'a Pokemon that can effectively utilize low-accuracy special moves'?

This might seem like it begs for No Guard and it does, but there are other ways to accomplish this. Allowing it to spam accuracy up boosts would be perfect, such as Claw Sharpen and such. We could even do something like Breloom, as in giving the Pokemon a way to 'set itself up' and make subs easily.

My concept:

PokéGlue

This is a Pokémon which metaphorically sticks a team together. It makes an excellent offensive, defensive or supportive pivot, and could either take out a wide variety of Pokemon to assist another Pokemon's sweep, or be capable of handling a significant amount of threats to defensive teams. The main decision is whether this Pokemon is offensively or defensively inclined, as that changes how the rest of the Pokemon comes together. (Not like Krillowatt. Krillowatt is capable of just about anything, but not everything at once, whereas this would be very good at one or two things.)

smashlloyd20 said:

We got a bit out of hand there. Anyway, would an example of a concept be 'a Pokemon that can effectively utilize low-accuracy special moves'?

This might seem like it begs for No Guard and it does, but there are other ways to accomplish this. Allowing it to spam accuracy up boosts would be perfect, such as Claw Sharpen and such. We could even do something like Breloom, as in giving the Pokemon a way to 'set itself up' and make subs easily.

Click to expand...

So you need to be completely a special attacker. Which means all the stat biases are special, which takes away half the possibilities.

ungulateman said:

My concept:

PokéGlue

This is a Pokémon which metaphorically sticks a team together. It makes an excellent offensive, defensive or supportive pivot, and could either take out a wide variety of Pokemon to assist another Pokemon's sweep, or be capable of handling a significant amount of threats to defensive teams. The main decision is whether this Pokemon is offensively or defensively inclined, as that changes how the rest of the Pokemon comes together. (Not like Krillowatt. Krillowatt is capable of just about anything, but not everything at once, whereas this would be very good at one or two things.)

Click to expand...

This is a good concept, though it would be more appropriately named as a pivot (call it like it is). It doesn't actually say how to do it, but it gives some very vague parameters.

Well it could be physical, but you know there's that great big Machamp looming over you...

I feel sort of out of place commenting here, but here is my concept:

Achilles Heel

Creat a pokemon that could easily rise into the uber rank, but because of one vital flaw, it is just another pokemon in the OU meta. This flaw could be a hindering ability, a bad offensive/defensive typing, a limited movepool, or anything else we can come up with. Here are some examples I thought off the top of my head: A very powerful sweeper that is easily beaten by priority, a pokemon with massive stats but a very limited movepool, a pokemon with one or more crippling weaknesses to common attacking types, and a pokemon with an amazing type cobmination, abillity, and movepool, but with low overall stats. The point of this concept is to try and find out what makes a pokemon uber, and what makes them over used.

I like this concept because of the near limitless end results we could end up with.

Achilles Heel is a fun concept that I believe has been submitted before (or concepts just like it). However, a concept like "PokeGlue" (I prefer the name Pivot too) for the simple fact that this is a new metagame and I'd prefer a concept that interacts with other pokemon a lot in it's function as that will also teach us more about this new metagame.
Achilles Heel, although a good concept, could almost even pretty much be made without looking too much at other pokemon.

After reading some of the suspect testing thread, there's a lot of support for removing Drought and Drizzle. As CaP tested a long time ago, auto-rain/sun are in fact broken. So I looked into a new concept, and decided to write out my idea in the standard format. Also I'm referring to this CaP as V1, first of gen V.

Concept: Balance the Scales

Description: A Pokemon who's purpose is to keep the battle stable once the opponent has started to build momentum.

Justification: Generation V is currently an extremely unstable metagame, where in turns your opponent can twist the game in the other direction with a few quick moves. This is evident from powerful set-up sweepers like Doruuyzu, Rohpushin, and Urugamosu. It's not only sweepers though, it's also visible in set-up hazards, weather, and status. A CaP that counters these metagame problems through support moves and simple Pokemon elimination could help to rebalance the battle.

Questions To Be Answered:
-Does CaP V1 help to stop the opponent's momentum?
-Does CaP V1 put the power back into the user's hands?
-Has CaP V1 made it too difficult to be an offensive/defensive threat?

Explanation: One of the things I've noticed from Gen V is that you can be playing a game, be down 4-1, send out your Doryuuzu (or in my case, my Zuruzukin), and sweep like it's no ones business. This has always bothered me, it shows how unbalanced the game has become where one Pokemon under the right circumstances can take down six after a Swords Dance. This has always been a part of Pokemon, but Gen V augmented it to new levels. It's not just sweepers, weather and entry hazards are still obvious, and Gen V gave us zero new rapid spinners to work with either. I want a way to get the power back into your hands after your opponent has gotten a little momentum, and I haven't found a Pokemon that can fully accomplish this goal.

Well thats my thoughts, so comments welcome.

Concept: Tier Changer

Description: A Pokemon that easily takes down the top OU pokemon, but has trouble with many pokemon from the lower tiers.

Justification: Gen V has introduced many new threats, many of which can't be taken down so easily. However, in this desperate struggle to counter many of these new threats, people have discovered that many pokemon previously overlooked for their low tier status are often great counters to top tier threats. For example, Xatu, previously a bad pokemon, is being used to counter Breloom. Azumarill is being used to counter Doryuuzu. If we could create a pokemon that thrives in the current metagame but is weak to lower tier pokemon, we may start to see a lot of variety on teams. Many teams would use pokemon not just in the OU tier.

Questions To Be Answered:
-What does a pokemon need to take down the current most popular pokemon in the metagame?
-How easily can the current metagame be beaten?
-What makes a pokemon particularly weak to one but not another?
-What lower tier pokemon are just as viable in the higher tiers?

Explanation: The tiers are constantly changing in this new and unstable metagame. Pokemon that were previously junk are now common threats, and to me that shows how little is needed to make a pokemon a threat. For example, the difference between Dream World Jaroda and Standard Jaroda is unbelievable. All it needed was a new ability. The same can be applied to the metagame as well. A pokemon is only as good as it performs in the metagame. If we create a pokemon that performs well in one metagame but not another, and inspires change and variety, I believe that we can create a mixed tier with pokemon of all different abilities and powers.

Also, Achilles Heel idea is a great concept, but we really already have that. Take Venomoth for example. It has Sleep Powder, Toxic Spikes, Tinted Lens, and Butterfly Dance as well as a decent special movepool, but its stats and typing really hold it back. Also, Moltres is the same type of thing. It is a great pokemon that is held back by its SR weakness.

How about something that relies on attacks which types change depending on the weather? So it is something that is very good if used correctly, but still relatively easy to counter.

That sounds like Castform 2.0. Not that I mind, Castform is easily one of my more favourites, and I have thrown it in on multiple weather teams I had, but it isn't a very good concept to work with, tbh.

sax king said:

Also, Achilles Heel idea is a great concept, but we really already have that. Take Venomoth for example. It has Sleep Powder, Toxic Spikes, Tinted Lens, and Butterfly Dance as well as a decent special movepool, but its stats and typing really hold it back. Also, Moltres is the same type of thing. It is a great pokemon that is held back by its SR weakness.

Click to expand...

You make a good point, however, you list pokemon that are in lower tiers because of their shortcomings. I am suggesting a pokemon that is fully capable of being in the overused tier despite the flaws it has. Granted, you could give me many exaples of pokemon that are overused despite their flaws, but the point of this concept is to try to think past the obvious flaws such as typing or stats. The examples I thought up with were off the top of my head, I'm sure with the amount creativity here, we could think up something truly unique in the meta.

Yllnath said:

Achilles Heel is a fun concept that I believe has been submitted before (or concepts just like it). However, a concept like "PokeGlue" (I prefer the name Pivot too) for the simple fact that this is a new metagame and I'd prefer a concept that interacts with other pokemon a lot in it's function as that will also teach us more about this new metagame.
Achilles Heel, although a good concept, could almost even pretty much be made without looking too much at other pokemon.

Click to expand...

Okay, I put my hands up on this one. It is true that Achilles Heel does not require looking at the rest of the metagame to be made and is perhaps not the best concept for this still settling metagame. However, and I may regret bringing them up, a few of the gen IV CaPs began with concepts that did not necessarily require "looking too much at other pokemon," (Stratagem with "Breaking the mold" and Cyclohm with "Under used ability" to name a few) and if I can recall, the first few CaPs did not have concepts at all. Despite this, the dicussions evolved into comparing the CaPs to other pokemon in order to beter understand our creation and the meta it was based upon.
So maybe Achilles Heel is not the best conept at this stage of the game. However, in the future, perhaps it may be worth checking out.

I hope I am not just bringing up a bad idea but I still like the whole mixed sweeper concept using only moves the use the pokemon's special attack like Psycho Break and Sword of Mystery but the main idea is that its a mixed sweeper that runs off only one attack stat which lets it be more powerful than any mixed sweeper but also has the flaw of only being able to hit physically with two moves.

Pokethan, it's a good idea - it's just not best used as a concept. Here's how it all goes, in an ideal world:

1. An aim
We want a pokemon which can improve the durability of stall teams (making them last longer, and so win more often).

2. A method
It should do this by curing its team-mates of status, and inflicting their enemies with burn and paralysis to make them slower or weaker.

3. The details
Well then, let's make it quite bulky (to fit in with the stall team), with low attack stats (as it mainly deals in status), and with a good defensive typing.

Click to expand...

A concept should be more of an aim than a method (that comes later). We want a pokemon which can... make stall teams better. Make weather teams worse. Make Togekiss more popular. De-centralise the metagame. See the link?

Your proposal strays a little too close to "it should do this by."

smallvizier said:

Pokethan, it's a good idea - it's just not best used as a concept. Here's how it all goes, in an ideal world:

A concept should be more of an aim than a method (that comes later). We want a pokemon which can... make stall teams better. Make weather teams worse. Make Togekiss more popular. De-centralise the metagame. See the link?

Your proposal strays a little too close to "it should do this by."

Click to expand...

Oh all right glad you said it like that. Makes it a little easier for me to think of something closer to what we are looking for. Thanks for explaining that to me.

Ice-eyes said:

I think it would be interesting to see what impact the introduction of a pokemon which is very, very good against the metagame would have. Would the 'best' tactics simply not be used as a result of this poke? Or would teams adapt to still get good use out of the otherwise optimal pokemon?

Click to expand...

Thoughts?

Ice-eyes said:

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Rankurusu seems to be doing a good job of that.

Also Inconsistent, although it's very, very good against anything.

I think we'd have to wait until after the suspect tests are done. There's too much of a variety of broken stuff in OU to counter.

I've never submitted a concept before, but here it goes!

Concept: Fair Weather Friend

Description: A Pokemon who functions poorly outside of weather, but is an excellent contender in Sun, Rain, Sand, or Hail

Justification: This generation added many things to make weather more viable, including instant starters for rain and sun. However, there is no one Pokemon who can take advantage of every weather.

Questions To Be Answered:
-How will a Pokemon who can use every weather change the lineup of weather teams?
-Which weather team will end up gaining the most support from this Pokemon?
-Will a Pokemon that can play to any weather prove more suited to counter weather teams than support them?

Explanation: Several powerful weather users have been thrown into the mix this generation. New weather starters, Politoed and Ninetails, make old threats like Kingdra and Kabutops thrive. New weather abusers, such as Doryuzuu (sp?) have support with Sandstreamers from previous gens to shine in the metagame. But when a weather team comes against a weather team, unless there is a large difference in skill, it often comes right down to whose instant weather user bites the dust first. If there was a Pokemon that could benefit from any weather, then it could change the way weather is played.

It's an interesting concept. Like, the legendary of Weather-abusing species. Is it a bit like a Castform, without the obvious form-changing ability (which affects its type and all)? Or would this weather-supremacy not be an ability, but something different?

Ice-eyes said:

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

sax king said:

Concept: Tier Changer

Description: A Pokemon that easily takes down the top OU pokemon, but has trouble with many pokemon from the lower tiers.

Justification: Gen V has introduced many new threats, many of which can't be taken down so easily. However, in this desperate struggle to counter many of these new threats, people have discovered that many pokemon previously overlooked for their low tier status are often great counters to top tier threats. For example, Xatu, previously a bad pokemon, is being used to counter Breloom. Azumarill is being used to counter Doryuuzu. If we could create a pokemon that thrives in the current metagame but is weak to lower tier pokemon, we may start to see a lot of variety on teams. Many teams would use pokemon not just in the OU tier.

Questions To Be Answered:
-What does a pokemon need to take down the current most popular pokemon in the metagame?
-How easily can the current metagame be beaten?
-What makes a pokemon particularly weak to one but not another?
-What lower tier pokemon are just as viable in the higher tiers?

Explanation: The tiers are constantly changing in this new and unstable metagame. Pokemon that were previously junk are now common threats, and to me that shows how little is needed to make a pokemon a threat. For example, the difference between Dream World Jaroda and Standard Jaroda is unbelievable. All it needed was a new ability. The same can be applied to the metagame as well. A pokemon is only as good as it performs in the metagame. If we create a pokemon that performs well in one metagame but not another, and inspires change and variety, I believe that we can create a mixed tier with pokemon of all different abilities and powers.

Click to expand...

Essentially, I took your concept and expanded it.

As for the fair weather friend, I think we need a pokemon that performs well in all forms of weather but serves more as a counter to that kind of weather. For example, it is capable of abusing the opponent's rain and sweeping the opponent's team. But we'd need this for all types of weather (including hail).

Xeniaph said:

It's an interesting concept. Like, the legendary of Weather-abusing species. Is it a bit like a Castform, without the obvious form-changing ability (which affects its type and all)? Or would this weather-supremacy not be an ability, but something different?

Click to expand...

I suppose it could go in a multitude of directions. There are plenty of ways to go about making something good in multiple weathers. We could give it an ability like castform's, dust-proof to make it immune to hail and sand, or make its best coverage moves reliant on weather, like thunder, solarbeam, and blizzard. It's a very general concept and could go in a multitude of directions.



Edit:

sax king said:

As for the fair weather friend, I think we need a pokemon that performs well in all forms of weather but serves more as a counter to that kind of weather. For example, it is capable of abusing the opponent's rain and sweeping the opponent's team. But we'd need this for all types of weather (including hail).

Click to expand...

I don't think we could very well make this a counter weather pokemon. After all, if it can use your opponent's rain to sweep a rain team, then couldn't you stick it on your rain team to great efficiancy? I don't the the concept of countering weather works very well, since any one weather doesn't have a single strategy, and also has a team of six. If this pokemon could take out an entire team of six pokemon under any weather, it'd be unstopable. I more meant the pokemon to be lackluster outside of weather, but function well in any of them. More of a Jack of all trades, except for weather.

I Have a really dumb idea but I will post it up anyways

Concept:The Sand Storm Slayer

Description: a Water/Ice Pokemon with dual priority moves Ice Shard and Aqua Jet and technician abillity

Justification: This Pokemon would easily decrease the dominance of dragon types and sandstorm teams have in the meta-game

Questions To Be Answered:
-will it's effect drastically decrease the usage of dragon types?
-Can this effectively be the new scizor?
-how would teams go around countering it?


Explanation: Hypothetically assuming this pokemon has base 100 atk it could effectively check threats such as Doryuuzu and speed boost Blaziken does in the same vain as the underestimated CB Azumarill and could be a potent threat with the right support a powerful revenge killer and the bane of sandstorm team kind off like how Scizor counters Hail teams.

I am Kind off New too this so correct my mistakes....

Fooly Cooly said:

I Have a really dumb idea but I will post it up anyways

Concept:The Sand Storm Slayer

Description: a Water/Ice Pokemon with dual priority moves Ice Shard and Aqua Jet and technician abillity

Justification: This Pokemon would easily decrease the dominance of dragon types and sandstorm teams have in the meta-game

Questions To Be Answered:
-will it's effect drastically decrease the usage of dragon types?
-Can this effectively be the new scizor?
-how would teams go around countering it?


Explanation: Hypothetically assuming this pokemon has base 100 atk it could effectively check threats such as Doryuuzu and speed boost Blaziken does in the same vain as the underestimated CB Azumarill and could be a potent threat with the right support a powerful revenge killer and the bane of sandstorm team kind off like how Scizor counters Hail teams.

I am Kind off New too this so correct my mistakes....

Click to expand...

Well, first of all, you're not supposed to dictate types or moves. Second of all, the questions you listed don't match the concept name, dragons have nothing to do with sandstorm. You can still go along with this direction, but you have a few options: make the concept about a priority user of non standard priority types, such as ice and water, or you can make the concept still be about countering sandstorm teams, but allow the concept to go in more than one direction. Who says the Sandstorm slayer has to be a water/ice scizor?

grahgrahbearsexrape
Well, I've been absent from the CaP community for far too long, but I have been keeping up with battling in the 5th generation. No doubt, weather has become even more of a keystone than it was any previous generation. What I have noticed is that despite Drizzle and Drought bringing vast improvements to weather team, Sandstream still rules the realm.

Why use a Rain, Sun, or Hail team when Sandstorm is clearly more apt? Now, I don't think the problem lays with the Pokemon that benefit from the weather, rather the weather inducers themselves. Let's be honest, Politoed and Ninetales have no business on a team other than for helping out their superior teammates. Battling with such teams might as well be 5 Pokemon against 6 right from the get-go. Simply stated, they are not strong cores. Tyranitar on the other hand, can manage his business and not only provide his teammates with Sandstorm, but also fulfill other roles, too. Furthermore, Tyranitar lasts.

I would suggest that we create a supporting (not necesarrily support) Pokemon specifically designed for aiding, as well as benefitting from the likes of these Pokemon. How can we make Ninetales, Politoed, and Abomasnow more useful? The thing that jumps to me immediately is to keep them alive. Perhaps support or typing and ability match that allows for switching so as to keep their roles of keeping up weather that the rest of the team may need?

To Smogon, Tyranitar may be king, however chess-wise he's the queen, most powerful of pieces. Our Ninetales, Politoed, and Abomasnow are the kings--most important--who are to be protected, but weak themselves, yet without them the game is over. Saying that, how best to guard them and give more use than they have now? It's not weather that's your threat--at least not yet--it's the strength of Sandstorm and the weakness of the others. That is what I have noticed upon reaching the tops of the leaderboard.

I personally use a Sandstorm team, and what I find is that once an opposing weather host is KO'd the rest of the team is dead in the water.. or more likely lost in the sand. The most important thing is making sure that your weather prevails. Take their king before they take yours, otherwise you're a goner. Frankly, Ninetales and Politoed just can't compete.. not yet. Let's make that be able to happen.

I think the problem with making a pokemon to strictly support weather starters not named TTar is that they all hate different things. If you do make something that can keep thos three alive, whats stoping it from keeping something else alive. To support Abomasnow, this thing will have to take care of fire moves it struggles with. However, why not just use it to alliviate Nattorei's fire problems instead? To bring an example from past CAPs, voodoom was meant to be used with Togekiss, but I saw many users who found that Zapdos made a better partner. We don't want the same thing to occur again.