np: UU Stage 8 - I Remember

[Machi]

Originally Posted by Fat Pokemazter

I'm also rather curious as to how Tornadus and Meloetta will play out in UU. Tornadus is practically a full stop to Sableye if it runs Taunt, and makes rain much more deadly thanks to its STAB Hurricane and Prankster Rain Dance. I never played UnderUsed when Tornadus was still in this tier (early 2011-ish?), so I ask those that were; how did it play out? How successful was it? In my own opinion, I feel that the BU Acrobatics set will be Tornadus' crux in the tier, simply because its arrival may coax users to lean on Snorlax, Porygon2, and even Umbreon, which gives Tornadus a free turn to set up and begin wrecking hell.

You pretty much nailed it since Nadus was usually either a rain-setter, people would generally anticipate that and proceed to maim him so that he would not have much of a chance to abuse hurricane but on times he did it wasn't too difficult to wall it. Or Nadus was used as a BU, I'd recall normally seeing this outside of rain teams, and personally found this to be somewhat more potent as it is more difficult to wall or stop since STAB acrobatics flight gem really hurts especially with a boost or two (and if it carries sub even tougher). Though in both cases, mostly in the rain dance set, he is capable of setting up tailwind before he dies that gains momentum for the team.

Meloetta, I've never actually used in OU, and have only played it three times, so I won't cover anything about it, as I'll just be running my mouth. However, how do those that have used it before feel it will play out?

I'll be honest here I never had much luck pulling off Meloetta's mixed set or CM set as well as I did with just a simple Relic Song + 3 attacks. Though I did have more issues with mixed and CM sets because Meloetta was quite easily killed in OU, lots of dangerous scarved revengers or mons that just plain hit hard (don't need to explain those), since it did not have much speed and psychic typing is too easily dealt with in OU the story would probably be different in UU. Still one thing about the CM set is that Meloetta lacks a recovery move, couple this with lack of resistances and of course being vulnerable to all forms of hazards, it was easily worn down.

Now as for Relic Song + 3 attacks I just adore this set, it requires hazard support and is best used late game when you have an SR+Spike on the field or at the very least have eliminated bulky mons, its ability to change speed tiers as well as gain a very potent STAB attack in CC makes it much more difficult to stop or revenge. I find its best not to abuse CC too much and rely more on her other moves unless you're certain that no remaining priority attack will take advantage of the defense drops. Another thing to keep in mind with this set is Relic Song, don't just mindlessly transform but ideally look for something that relic song can actually hurt that becomes easily cleaned off by Pirouette form. Most of the time I try to set up on those weaker on the SpD side so that Relic Song can do quite some damage. Its also helpful to remember the types of attacks the mon you're setting up with Relic Song as it won't be recommendable to set up on something that is much slower than you which hits Pirouette form hard with a super effective attack or a strong special attack. Last important thing to remember with Relic Song + 3 attacks is be sure to kill off anything that might have carried TW/WoW and Intimidate (especially intimidate since it would generally force you out since a lot of things will easily survive your STAB CC even with hazard support).

Still what I especially love about this set is the way Meloetta tends to attracts dark or bug types that end up being smashed so badly by a fully attack invested Pirouette form that gives you much ease in eliminating them. As well as screwing over speed tiers and changing its set of counters with a single move. I find Relic Song + 3 attacks to be very balanced and I feel can managed in UU, well no surprise here since the tier is quite prepared for fighters, as it only has one STAB that is covered easily (I can't help but wish it had extreme speed as it would have saved my ass so many times with the things Quick Attack failed by a margin to clean up). Meaning you've got the choices of Stone Edge (accuracy issues), Acrobatics (loss of item), Ice Punch, Quick Attack (wish this was Extreme Speed), or Shadow Claw (forget this in UU ghosts are bulky here and only frail ones are covered by a stronger neutral attack). I find Meloetta does well against HO teams, she can easily tank a hit and transform into Pirouette form and proceed to outspeed and KO the frail sweepers, but does have more difficulty against stall and balanced. Frankly, Relic Song + 3 attacks Meloetta is lot like Kingdra in that respect in that it does well against more offensively oriented teams but does have difficulties with more defensively oriented ones. Again I am only speaking of Relic Song + 3 attacks I cannot say how the other two sets will go.

[DestinyUnknown]

Originally Posted by Fat Pokemazter

Hell, if they're dropping, might as well start something.



Saw this in the usage stats thread, and it's a fair question. If Virizion drops, how will it affect the metagame? It pressures the bulky Water-type Pokemon, who are already pressured a fair bit because of other Grass- and Electric-type Pokemon. I also feel its going to push (...)

Virizion does definitely seems promising, and I agree Cobalion usage is going to decrease even more, but I'm unsure about if Shaymin usage will decrease that much, because Shaymin has the niche of being able to switch into Scald without getting crippled, having a recovery move, and Leech Seed. Virizion main selling point, in my opinion, is the great offensive typing (as it's very good at wallbreaking) as well as the option of going Special or Physical, because (like Kingdra) it has that unpredictability. For example, if you send Chandelure or Roserade expecting a Calm Mind set, you are forced out if Virizion is physical, and viceversa with stuff like Qwilfish. I don't think it will be broken though, as both sets have checks or hard counters like Crobat.

As for Tornadus, when it was UU Rain teams usage sparked a bit (especially in the first month after Tornadus drop) but after that people realized Rain wasn't that good. Tornadus usage was very low in general when it was UU, but the best set was undoubtedly the Acrobatics one. When it drops to UU again, I believe the Acrobatics set will be again the most popular, as it's much more effective than the Rain Dance + Hurricane combo. In particular, I think Tornadus will be interesting in the metagame as sort of a check to Virizion, Mienshao and Bulk Up Scrafty.

Abomasnow was banned to BL (well, it actually didn't, Snow Warning got banned) so it won't drop to UU until Soundproof gets released.

As superbadd said, Mew didn't got banned in UU, as it was never deemed broken. It just left the tier due to it's usage in OU. If comes back to UU, it's very likely that it will be a staple of the metagame again, even if Scrafty, Mienshao and the popularity of Heracross make it a less reliable Fighting-type counter.

[RainbowCrash]

I am loving trace p2 in this meta.Checks chandelure and nothings better than tracing a speed boost or a swift swim on a rain dance kingdra.Also alot of love for quilfish its helps stop alot of deadly pokemon.Heracross with eq can be quite easily dealth with once haze is carried on quilfish

Im glad kingdra stayed it was not broken imo.Once you know what set it is its easily dealt with.I didn't think gothetelle would be banned but it does make it very obviouse that chandelure will be.Chandelure is just going to wreak everything when it gets released.You can say "it has counters/checks " but shadow tag gets to choose what poke stays in on it.Choiced hera will drop fast with its released

What else to say hmm coffagirus will be a good counter to hera and will probley be uu soon .With virizion and hurrican bro dropping soon,uu is going to be all shaken up

[Silvershadow234]

Tornadus will make a nice counter to all the new fighting types running around. I also agree with DestinyUnknown in that his best set will be the Acrobatics set-since he needs rain up to spam Hurricane safely. Still, a great counter to Mienshao, Scrafty and Virizion.

Virizion is going to be very easy to manage IMO, although the SD set should make a nice wallbreaker since Gligar can't do much to him. However, Virizion has a ton of competition from the other fighters. Personally, I think the CM set will be the best, since it can set-up on Blastoise with impunity. You'll need to run HP Fire / Ice so that you're not completely walled by Roserade, but he will make a nice new grass type in the metagame.

[Pocket]

Meloetta would most likely kill whatever usage Cofagrigus currently enjoys. Hard to say if Meloetta would find much popularity in UU, due to its weakness to Megahorns and U-turns, but it will still be one solid counter for that dastardly OTR Cofag.

PS: true dat, Silvershadow; Togekiss is already an amazing counter to Cofagrigus, and it hasn't stopped the ghost from dominating UU.

[Silvershadow234]

Cofagrigus won't become bad because of Meloetta. Cofagrigus is still an insanely good counter to all the fighting types of the tier and is probably the best ghost type in the tier as well. Meloetta will be a great counter yes, but Cofagrigus will still stay quite high. It should be in the top 20 IMO, due to the huge amount of things it can counter.

[reachzero]

Meloetta is probably going to be really bad in UU. Pirouette form is probably the most unique thing is does, and that isn't quite as good as advertised because Ancient Song is meh, and its wallbreaking power isn't that hot. Otherwise, just about the only things to distinguish it from Gardevoir are slightly better stats and U-turn, and Trace is much better than Serene Grace (at least given Meloetta's movepool). You see how much use Gardevoir is getting in UU.

[Kav]

Meloetta can be played like a weaker mewtwo. It doesn't have the best speed, but with calm mind and access to some pretty powerful special moves it'll definitely fare well.

[Ace Emerald]

Originally Posted by Fat reachzero

Meloetta is probably going to be really bad in UU. Pirouette form is probably the most unique thing is does, and that isn't quite as good as advertised because Ancient Song is meh, and its wallbreaking power isn't that hot. Otherwise, just about the only things to distinguish it from Gardevoir are slightly better stats and U-turn, and Trace is much better than Serene Grace (at least given Meloetta's movepool). You see how much use Gardevoir is getting in UU.

Don't know how much I agree with this. While Special Attack might not really increase, the jump from base 68 too base 100 HP is pretty significant. A little more HP can go a long way, and the good 10 base jump in other defensive stats will help that too. And I wouldn't even describe Gardevoir as "really bad." I used her a while back, and she was solidly mediocre. Usage doesn't equate effectiveness, and while Gardevoir may be old, mediocre, and unnoticeable, Meloetta will be fresh, better, and shiny, and it will get attention. If it has good qualities, they'll be picked up by good players pretty quick. With a significant bulk increase, combined with slightly better speed, good STAB moves in both forms, and ok versatility, I'm sure players can work out ways to use this thing effectively. I'm not saying it'll be a force of nature, but "really bad" is a stretch.

[reachzero]

Well, I consider the most significant stat for Meloetta's usage to be

| 56 | Mew | 17440 | 3.242% | 14575 | 3.346% |

because if Mew drops to UU, I doubt Meloetta has much chance of seeing the light of day. Almost everything that special Meloetta does (except counter Ghosts), Mew does better.

[Ace Emerald]

Originally Posted by Fat reachzero

Well, I consider the most significant stat for Meloetta's usage to be



because if Mew drops to UU, I doubt Meloetta has much chance of seeing the light of day. Almost everything that special Meloetta does (except counter Ghosts), Mew does better.

Yeah that's pretty accurate. Meloetta is going to face some serious competition for 600 BST psychic type if Mew drops. From the looks of it, Meloetta majors in versatility, and nothing can beat Mew in versatility.

Edit: I've done some thinking about what place Meloetta has if Mew comes down. I have no idea if Relic Song is good or gimmick, but Pirouette definitely has some mean looking offensive stats. It's faster than everything non scarfed bar Crobat, has that near 130 Attack, and backs it up with high powered STABs. But as for more secular sets, Meloetta might be able to stand a chance against Mew if you work off it's only real advantage, immediate power. Mew can beat Meloetta in every set-up moveset, and probably all out attacker as well due to his expansive movepool which provides Taunt and recovery moves in addition to more attacking moves. But Meloetta might just have him in a choice set. The base 10 Speed drop will be felt a little, but Meloetta has a significant raw power over Mew. Timid Specs Meloetta using Psyshock has a good chance to 2HKO Snorlax on the switch with one layer of hazards (45%-53% on the Rest Talk). Modest guarantees it with one layer. While Mew could Choice Band Superpower or something similar, the point is Meloetta can spam STAB in a way Mew can't. Granted, it'll compete with Chandelure for this niche, but considering it has a few differences (slightly faster, better bulk, different typing), Meloetta might be able to pull off a few normal sets well in UU.

[Heysup]

How does Relic Song work exactly? Is it just one-time use in the battle then you are Pirouette for the rest of the battle? Or does it go away if you switch out?

[Machi]

Originally Posted by Fat Heysup

How does Relic Song work exactly? Is it just one-time use in the battle then you are Pirouette for the rest of the battle? Or does it go away if you switch out?

Goes away after you switch out. So basically you need to use Relic Song in order to activate and use Pirouette form when Meloetta is on the field.

[Chimera404]

Ugh, Mew.
I'll be glad if I never have to face that thing again in UU; it's just got so many options to run that it's quite difficult to counter. Stallbreaker was the most annoying in my opinion.

As for Meloetta, how is base 128 attack/special attack NOT great for wallbreaking? What are we comparing it to, LO Darmanitan and SpecsLure? If so, that's true, but I see it becoming a decent threat in the UU meta. Even in OU it's one of the specially bulkiest Pokemon, so it should fare relatively well in UU. It's versatility is lower than Mew (duh) but it's still going to cost you a Pokemon if you mispredict. Say you send in CurseLax to set up on what you assume is Specs, then get hit by Relic Song. Oops, you're in against a STAB Fighting move from a huge attack stat. Or, for example, Gligar goes in on a mixed set and gets promptly OHKO'd by any of Meloetta's special attacks. It requires prediction to play against it and honestly I would run it over Mew, but what do I know? I've only used NP and Baton Pass Mews.

[Scoopapa]

I think Meloetta has potential and can differentiate itself from Mew if it sticks to its strengths on the special side and its typing. Meloetta obviously sacrifices defense and unpredictability, but looking at stats relevant to special sets, Meloetta trades 23 defense points and 10 speed points for 28 special attack points and 28 special defense points. In Special stats Meloetta at +1 is nearly as strong as Mew at +2; Mew is about 12% stronger in stats with EV investment and less than 10% stronger in those without. On the other hand, a 252 Spe 252 SpA Meloetta's special defense after a Calm Mind is nearly double that of Mew's after a Nasty Plot. Meloetta's bulky Calm Mind set can also differentiate itself from Mew's because of how much damage it can do at +1. Psychic/Normal typing is also very cool, and makes it able to counter not just to Mismagius but also to any Psychics running Psychic/Ghost/Fighting coverage (like Mew). All of this doesn't necessarily make it better than Mew, but I would be very surprised if it wasn't enough to make it stand out a bit. Overall it's not as tough to take down, versatile, or support-capable as Mew, but the huge Special stats should give it an edge as a special pivot, able to switch in on special attacks and force the opponent into a defensive position with strong attacks and good coverage.

Edit: I guess it isn't that predictable if you have to guess whether it is a Relic Song set or a Special set. I'm just not sure how viable Relic Song will turn out to be. The reward for Relic Song isn't that great if you compare the stats to those of, say, Cobalion after a Swords Dance. And you are trading your ability to be a threat prior to setup for those stats. I think once the novelty wears off, special sets will be much more popular because they will probably be much better. I could be wrong, though.

[Pokemazter]

Originally Posted by Fat Scoopapa

I think Meloetta has potential and can differentiate itself from Mew if it sticks to its strengths on the special side and its typing. Meloetta obviously sacrifices defense and unpredictability, but looking at stats relevant to special sets, Meloetta trades 23 defense points and 10 speed points for 28 special attack points and 28 special defense points. In Special stats Meloetta at +1 is nearly as strong as Mew at +2; Mew is about 12% stronger in stats with EV investment and less than 10% stronger in those without. On the other hand, a 252 Spe 252 SpA Meloetta's special defense after a Calm Mind is nearly double that of Mew's after a Nasty Plot. Meloetta's bulky Calm Mind set can also differentiate itself from Mew's because of how much damage it can do at +1. Psychic/Normal typing is also very cool, and makes it able to counter not just to Mismagius but also to any Psychics running Psychic/Ghost/Fighting coverage (like Mew). All of this doesn't necessarily make it better than Mew, but I would be very surprised if it wasn't enough to make it stand out a bit. Overall it's not as tough to take down, versatile, or support-capable as Mew, but the huge Special stats should give it an edge as a special pivot, able to switch in on special attacks and force the opponent into a defensive position with strong attacks and good coverage.

The problem is is that Meloetta, in order to be successful, has to be doing exactly that, which leaves it highly predictable. That's the key ingredient that separates Mew and Meloetta, as Mew can run a plethora of sets and quickly eliminate the defensive or offensive checks to an opposing team rather quickly. Also, Mew can setup and afford to take a hit, whereas Meloetta cannot as easily.

I figure once the "new toy" persona Meloetta will develop upon dropping will wear off in due time once the entirety of the Underused community comes to realize that Mew is still the better of the two, despite the lower Special Attack and Speed stats.

[superbadd]

UU is perfect! It's beyond fun and probably the best tier atm. HO w/Tornadus, meloeta and virizion is really cool. Tornadus with taunt shuts down sableye so I'm seeing a return of HO teams. Meloetta works nicely, being able to check/counter every ghost type in the tier. Virizion is the much needed grass type and I'm glad UU finally has it. All in all, everything is just so much fun right now. All we're missing is metagross and hippowdon. ;)

[kokoloko*]

Oh wow how did I forget to make a new np thread smh

new one soon