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 Jun 25th, 2007, 12:06:33 PM #1 Spidersonic     Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 59 New York City Spidersonic: Destroyer of Walls. I'm about to start working on a little project, mostly for myself, dealing with what the minimum stat is to guarantee a definite OHKO or 2HKO on specific popular walls or just OU standards, and would like to hear all your opinions on it. This is assuming perfect IVs in all of the defender's stats. Using Misty's damage calculation app (found for anyone wanting it here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21084), I'm going to find things like the minumum Sp.A stat required to OHKO a Rhyperior with Energy Ball in sandstorm, for example. This will assume that if it makes sense for the opponent to max their stats, they will. For things like Rhyperior, most users have other stats they'd rather max over Sp.D, so we'll assume that it simply is working off that 55 base, 31 IVs and sandstorm support, netting a total of 219 Sp.D. Let's assume there's no STAB or other multipliers besides the Super Effectiveness. Assume also that the Rhyperior has max HP (434). After plugging it into the calculator as so: /dam <219> <80> <434> * 2.67 219 as the Rhyperior's Sp.D in sandstorm, 80 as the Energy Ball's base stat, and 434 as the Rhyperior's max HP. The move would be multiplied by 4 because it's super effective twice, and factoring in Hard Rock, would be reduced to 2.67. And practically playing a guess-and-check game to find the lowest Sp.A stat that would guarantee a minimum of at least 100.0% damage. In this example, the Sp.A stat that we're finding would be 620. This also means that having half of that stat, 310, would render a guaranteed 2HKO, doing exactly 50% damage [Not counting in Leftovers, yet]. So, let's say a Timid Alakazam with 31 IVs in Sp.A wanted to know how many EVs it should have to 2HKO a Rhyperior with Energy Ball. Knowing that the desired stat to attain is 310, and knowing that it's Sp.A without any EVs is 306, it would be easy to realize that 16 EVs are needed to reach this stat. Now then, I just started doing calculations such as these, and want to know if I'm doing them correctly, if I should continue or not, or if it'll help at all anyway. If you all believe this to be a worthy project, I'd like to ask for a list of walls and their respective attack that would be used against them (Such as Rhyperior and Energy Ball in this example) This is, in a way, what many players ask for or what they look for in an Analysis of a poke. I figure instead of making everyone doing calculations and everything on their own, a list posted would be very useful and would save a lot of calculating. I've decided to start off by listing all the walls that I'm going to do for now. So far I have (in no particular order): ~Rhyperior ~Blissey ~Skarmory ~Cresselia ~Claydol ~Dusknoir ~Foretress ~Snorlax ~Slowbro ~Suicune ~Milotic ~Swampert ~Hippowdon ~Gliscor ~Weezing ~Donphan ~Bronzong ~Regice ~Vaporeon ~Miltank ~Tangrowth If this is redundant or a waste of time in any way, please let me know before I throw valuable time out of the window doing this. Also, on the other hand, if anyone is interested in helping me with this project, I'd love that a lot. Keep in mind that I'm still a noob... but at least I'm an aspiring noob. Let me know what you guys think. Anyone wanting to contact me can add me on AIM (Double Edge 216), MSN (spidersonic@gmail.com), Yahoo (jptomici@yahoo.com), or can PM me or email me at spidersonic@gmail.com. Any support will be appreciated and welcomed. (Edit: Elaborated on my example and added ways of contacting me.) (Edit: Corrected my math after being alerted by Lemmiwinks MkII) Last edited by Spidersonic; Jun 25th, 2007 at 5:10:44 PM.
Jun 25th, 2007, 12:08:42 PM   #2
sanjay120

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,741
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Excellent idea. You'd be surprised by what some things can survive.
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Fat Igor if theres a half blood prince is he also half crip

Jun 25th, 2007, 12:09:07 PM   #3
iceyicey

Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 336
komiland

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Fat Spidersonic I'm about to start working on a little project, mostly for myself, dealing with what the minimum stat is to guarantee a definite OHKO or 2HKO on specific popular walls or just OU standards, and would like to hear you all's opinion on it. This is assuming perfect IVs in all of the defender's stats. Using Misty's damage calculation app, I'm going to find things like the minumum Sp.A stat required to OHKO a Rhyperior with Energy Ball in sandstorm, for example. This will assume that if it makes sense for the opponent to max their stats, they will. For things like Rhyperior, most users have other stats they'd rather max over Sp.D, so we'll assume that it simply is working off that 55 base, 31 IVs and sandstorm support, netting a total of 219 Sp.D. Let's assume there's no STAB or other multipliers besides the Super Effectiveness. Assume also that the Rhyperior has max HP (434). After plugging it into the calculator as so: /dam <219> <80> <434> * 2.33 219 as the Rhyperior's Sp.D in sandstorm, 80 as the Energy Ball's base stat, and 434 as the Rhyperior's max HP. The move would be multiplied by 4 because it's super effective twice, and factoring in Hard Rock, would be reduced to 2.33. And practically playing a guess-and-check game to find the lowest Sp.A stat that would guarantee a minimum of at least 100.0% damage. In this example, the Sp.A stat that we're finding would be 710. Now then, I just started doing calculations such as these, and want to know if I'm doing them correctly, if I should continue or not, or if it'll help at all anyway. If you all believe this to be a worthy project, I'd like to ask for a list of walls and their respective attack that would be used against them (Such as Rhyperior and Energy Ball in this example)
It will be useful... for people like me who are lazy to get off their butt and do some maths xD

 Jun 25th, 2007, 12:11:21 PM #4 Turismo2029   Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 219 Yeah, some kind of list like that would be nice. Like how high Alakazam's special attack needs to be to OHKO a Blissey with max HP and sp.def, with Focus Blast, etc.. Would come in handy for EV point saving.
Jun 25th, 2007, 12:14:29 PM   #5
sanjay120

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,741
enjoying this amazing avatar by yamipoli

Impossible. Modest Zam at most 2HKOs Bliss.
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Fat Igor if theres a half blood prince is he also half crip

 Jun 25th, 2007, 12:17:32 PM #6 bauer     Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 203 Interesting, it'd be a big help to us battlers who are too lazy to make their own EV spreads
Jun 25th, 2007, 12:46:17 PM   #7
Spidersonic

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 59
New York City

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Fat sanjay120 Impossible. Modest Zam at most 2HKOs Bliss.
Let's find out. Modest 'Zam has 405 Sp.A.
Modest 'Zam with Choice Specs has 607.5 Sp.A.
According to my calculations...:

Damage on a Max HP, Max Sp.D, Calm Blissey: 24.23% - 28.57%
Damage on a Max HP, Max Def, Bold Blissey (standard): 32.07% - 37.82%
Damage on a neutral natured, no HP or Sp.D, EV/IV Blissey: 41.13% - 48.39%
Damage on a reducing nature, no HP or Sp.D EV/IV Blissey: 45.65% - 53.87%
Damage on a reducing nature, np HP or SP.D EV/IV Blissey while holding Choice Specs: 68.23% - 80.32%
Damage on a standard Blissey while holding Choice Specs: 53.22% - 62.75%

So... the most damage that an unboosted Alakazam can do in one hit to any Blissey is 45.65% - 53.87%, with no Choice Specs. With Choice Specs, Alakazam can do from 53.22% - 62.75%, which is a 2HKO, neglecting Leftovers recovery. So yeah, sanjay120, Modest Zam at most 2HKOs, even after all possible boosts and reducing of Blissey's stats.
__________________
Working on a wall-breaking project. Take a look, and feel free to help out in any way.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23237

 Jun 25th, 2007, 12:50:39 PM #8 BFC     Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 149 NYC I was thinking about doing this my self cause i think it would help me as a battler and making teams and EV spreads and if you would like any help on this just ask me i will be glad to help.
 Jun 25th, 2007, 12:54:55 PM #9 Callum     Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 209 Don't forget that Grass Knot is more common than Energy Ball, and does more damage to Rhyperior. Alternative moves like Surf and Grass Knot should be taken into consideration. Nevertheless, it's a good idea, but it may become irrelevant quickly once the metagame has become more well established. Just for one example, Jolteon and Raikou's Hidden Power vs. a Dugtrio - although initially it killed, eventually Duggys began to run a few Sp. Def EVs, and after that it always fell short of the OHKO. Things like that could eventually make these 'magic stat numbers' irrelevant. But in the meantime, it'd be a good idea, I think.
Jun 25th, 2007, 12:57:44 PM   #10
sanjay120

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,741
enjoying this amazing avatar by yamipoli

Some common things:

Thunderbolt/Thunderpunch/Thunder to Gyarados.
Ice Beam/Shard/Punch to Salamence/Garchomp.
Stone Edge to Salamence/Gyarados.
Surf/Energy Ball/Grass Rope/Brick Break/Pulse Bomb/Close Combat/Earthquake to Tyranitar/Rhyperior.

Be sure to take STAB into account.

EDIT: This could also be useful for finding out how many EVs you need to run to survive common threats.
__________________
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Fat Igor if theres a half blood prince is he also half crip

Jun 25th, 2007, 12:57:50 PM   #11
adman2

Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,153
Unsuccessfully RNGing Bronzong

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Fat Callum Don't forget that Grass Knot is more common than Energy Ball, and does more damage to Rhyperior. Alternative moves like Surf and Grass Knot should be taken into consideration. Nevertheless, it's a good idea, but it may become irrelevant quickly once the metagame has become more well established. Just for one example, Jolteon and Raikou's Hidden Power vs. a Dugtrio - although initially it killed, eventually Duggys began to run a few Sp. Def EVs, and after that it always fell short of the OHKO. Things like that could eventually make these 'magic stat numbers' irrelevant. But in the meantime, it'd be a good idea, I think.
Why would a Dugtrio use Special Defense EVs? It needs all the Speed and Attack it can get (unless there's a magic number for Dugtrio)
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Jun 25th, 2007, 12:58:03 PM   #12
Spidersonic

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 59
New York City

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Fat Callum Don't forget that Grass Knot is more common than Energy Ball, and does more damage to Rhyperior. Alternative moves like Surf and Grass Knot should be taken into consideration. Nevertheless, it's a good idea, but it may become irrelevant quickly once the metagame has become more well established. Just for one example, Jolteon and Raikou's Hidden Power vs. a Dugtrio - although initially it killed, eventually Duggys began to run a few Sp. Def EVs, and after that it always fell short of the OHKO. Things like that could eventually make these 'magic stat numbers' irrelevant. But in the meantime, it'd be a good idea, I think.
Oh yeah, there's gonna be a whole list of attacks for certain pokes, for example:
Rhyperior
Energy Ball: 710 Sp.A
Grass Knot: X Sp.A
Surf: Y: Sp. A
Ice Beam: Z Sp.A

Earthquake: A Sp.A
Close Combat: B Sp.A

Etc. With not exactly that many walls to be "breaking", most orthodox attacks will be listed.

As for the changing of the metagame, that's true. However, the list is always going to be open; not set in stone. Edits and additions, etc, can always be made to accommodate the metagame.
__________________
Working on a wall-breaking project. Take a look, and feel free to help out in any way.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23237

Last edited by Spidersonic; Jun 25th, 2007 at 1:01:16 PM.

Jun 25th, 2007, 1:00:59 PM   #13
sanjay120

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,741
enjoying this amazing avatar by yamipoli

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Fat adman2 Why would a Dugtrio use Special Defense EVs? It needs all the Speed and Attack it can get (unless there's a magic number for Dugtrio)
He just said there was a magic number.
__________________
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Fat Igor if theres a half blood prince is he also half crip

 Jun 25th, 2007, 1:14:40 PM #14 Lord Alchemy     Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 319 Washington Interesting idea, will be helpful in general for those too lazy to do their own math or those that simply do it incorrectly. In the end, I don't see this being all that useful for people that build teams from scratch and play with their EVs, natures, and movesets to perfect their team; but it will be a good resource for low to mid entry competitive battlers and probably show a few people how well walls do their job by reliably surviving even super effective moves (such as the Zam/Blissey Focus Blast example above). This can also grow out of hand as the metagame evolves and will become a giant task once people start messing around with things like Pseudo-Special tank Rhyperior. I already got my fairly good "normal" competitive team built, and now I'm exploring some crazy options like a Special Tank T-Tar (packs like 493 Special Defense with max Special D+Sandstream) which, if any weird things become popular, would need to be accounted for. All I can say is good luck, and heres hoping the community hasn't missed anything with the damage equation or various abilities, would hate to see some of the math here slightly off. __________________
Jun 25th, 2007, 1:19:30 PM   #15
Spidersonic

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 59
New York City

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Fat Lord Alchemy Interesting idea, will be helpful in general for those too lazy to do their own math or those that simply do it incorrectly. In the end, I don't see this being all that useful for people that build teams from scratch and play with their EVs, natures, and movesets to perfect their team; but it will be a good resource for low to mid entry competitive battlers and probably show a few people how well walls do their job by reliably surviving even super effective moves (such as the Zam/Blissey Focus Blast example above). This can also grow out of hand as the metagame evolves and will become a giant task once people start messing around with things like Pseudo-Special tank Rhyperior. I already got my fairly good "normal" competitive team built, and now I'm exploring some crazy options like a Special Tank T-Tar (packs like 493 Special Defense with max Special D+Sandstream) which, if any weird things become popular, would need to be accounted for. All I can say is good luck, and heres hoping the community hasn't missed anything with the damage equation or various abilities, would hate to see some of the math here slightly off.

Thanks for the advice. I'm still not sure how helpful this will be to everyone, but I know that for myself at least it'll be a big help, especially because I'll be doing most of the calculations anyway in finding my own team.
__________________
Working on a wall-breaking project. Take a look, and feel free to help out in any way.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23237

 Jun 25th, 2007, 1:26:17 PM #16 Spidersonic     Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 59 New York City Anyway, for the sake of anyone interested in helping me, I should prolly elaborate how I'll organize this. I think the most effective way to store this information would be as such: One folder labeled "Wall Breaker". Within this folder, I'll have different .txt files for different pokes. For example, one .txt file named "Rhyperior", in which all calculations for attacks used to counter Rhyperior would be placed. Likewise, other .txt files such as "Cresselia" and "Blissey" will have the calculations placed there as well. __________________ Working on a wall-breaking project. Take a look, and feel free to help out in any way. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23237
 Jun 25th, 2007, 1:26:54 PM #17 sarunibi   Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 317 Wherever I go This is a good idea you have going. Another thing to consider though is if the opposing pokemon has one of those "type-reducing berries". Then you can find out how many ev's are needed to OHKO the pokemon even if they have the berry. I wish you luck in your research. If I discover anything else, I'll let you know. Grass Knot was already mentioned, but don't forget about Low Kick either.
Jun 25th, 2007, 1:33:50 PM   #18
Spidersonic

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 59
New York City

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Fat sarunibi This is a good idea you have going. Another thing to consider though is if the opposing pokemon has one of those "type-reducing berries". Then you can find out how many ev's are needed to OHKO the pokemon even if they have the berry. I wish you luck in your research. If I discover anything else, I'll let you know. Grass Knot was already mentioned, but don't forget about Low Kick either.
True, and thanks for your support. Hold items such as berries, leftovers and stat-messing-around-with things will be what will make this project difficult.
I personally was thinking about Low Kick, too. With all the hype of Grass Knot, I figured Low Kick should be able to reign as well. However, The max power of Low Kick and Grass knot is, correct me if I'm wrong, 120. I think the main difference between the moves is that Fighting moves have a wider selection (Focus Punch, Cross-Chop, Brick Break, Close Combat, Sky Uppercut, etc), while grass moves are lacking in comparison (Solarbeam, Energy Ball, Wood Hammer, Seed bomb, lol Bullet Seed).

Anyway, this isn't a topic about moves, it's a topic about how to use those moves to break walls.
So yeah, thanks.
__________________
Working on a wall-breaking project. Take a look, and feel free to help out in any way.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23237

 Jun 25th, 2007, 1:39:40 PM #19 sarunibi   Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 317 Wherever I go Your welcome. And I know it's a topic about how to use moves to break walls, which is why I mentioned Low kick since it is in essence the "physical version" of Grass Knot, just a different typing. Rhyperior hates Grass Knot, but might brush off Low Kick depending on the circumstances. I think I'll do some research on this...
 Jun 25th, 2007, 1:43:02 PM #20 Spidersonic     Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 59 New York City Thanks again. I'm gonna take a break from pogeymoning and calculating for a while. Don't let that stop you all from posting your opinions, support or criticisms though. __________________ Working on a wall-breaking project. Take a look, and feel free to help out in any way. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23237
 Jun 25th, 2007, 3:24:31 PM #21 Spidersonic     Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 59 New York City Back. I've decided to start off by listing all the walls that I'm going to do for now. So far I have (in no particular order): ~Rhyperior ~Blissey ~Skarmory ~Cresselia ~Claydol ~Dusknoir ~Foretress ~Snorlax ~Slowbro ~Suicune ~Milotic ~Swampert ~Hippowdon ~Gliscor ~Weezing ~Donphan ~Bronzong ~Regice ~Vaporeon There are prolly a couple of obvious ones that I can't think of right now. Feel free to help out. Chances are, I'll go through each pokemon on this thread, so if I do anything wrong you guys can catch my error. So yeah, just listing walls for now, then the most common attacks to be used against them later. __________________ Working on a wall-breaking project. Take a look, and feel free to help out in any way. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23237 Last edited by Spidersonic; Jun 25th, 2007 at 4:06:13 PM.
 Jun 25th, 2007, 3:39:17 PM #22 Nicar     Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 223 Sweden Looking good! Even if people know how to calculate this stuff on their own, it's always nice and handy to have some lists for quick reference in case your mind slips or you're just lazy, so you're definitely not wasting your time IMO.
 Jun 25th, 2007, 3:50:02 PM #23 Lemmiwinks MkII   Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,679 Spidersonic, that Rhyperior calculation is flawed. Solid Rock only reduces damage by one third. The number I get is 620, so Alakazam only needs 16 EVs in Sp. Atk.
 Jun 25th, 2007, 3:54:54 PM #24 bauer     Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 203 No love for Vaporeon?
 Jun 25th, 2007, 4:05:37 PM #25 Spidersonic     Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 59 New York City Adding Vaporeon. Lemmiwinks, thanks, I knew I'd make a stupid mistake like that somewhere. I could have sworn I read somewhere that Solid Rock effectively turned 4x SE hits -> 2.33x. Oh well, whoops. __________________ Working on a wall-breaking project. Take a look, and feel free to help out in any way. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23237
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