[on site] Ubers Speed Tiers

This is a guide based on the Speed Tiers List. This version is for D/P Ubers play.

Please read each heading in the post before asking questions.




Tier 0 (CS Users, DDers, and Hasty Deoxys-F)

• 492 - CS +nature/252 Palkia (100)
• 475 - One DD from 317 speed (Jolly Rayquaza)
• 459 - CS +nature/252 Kyogre, Groudon (90)
• 448 - CS 252 Palkia (100)
• 442 - CS +nature/252 Heracross (85)
• 438 - +nature/252 Deoxys-F (150)
• 420 - One DD from 280 speed (DD Rayquaza)
• 418 - CS 252 Dialga, Kyogre, Groudon (90)
• 403 - CS 252 Heracross (85)

Tier 1 (110 to Mild Deoxys-F)

• 399 - 252 Deoxys-F (150)
• 394 - +nature/252 Mewtwo (130)
• 393 - CS +nature/252 Metagross (70)
• 383 - +nature/252 Darkrai (125)
• 376 - CS +nature/252 Scizor (65)
• 372 - +nature/252 Arceus (120)
• 359 - 252 Mewtwo (130)
• 358 - CS 252 Metagross (70)
• 350 - +nature/252 Latias, Latios (110)
• 349 - 252 Darkrai (125)
• 343 - CS 252 Scizor (65)
• 339 - 252 Arceus (120)

Tier 2 (90 to 100 base speed)

• 328 - +nature/252 Palkia, Manaphy, Mew (100)
• 319 - 252 Latias, Latios (110)
• 317 - +nature/252 Rayquaza (95)
• 306 - +nature/252 Dialga, Giratina, Groudon, Ho-oh, Kyogre (90)
• 299 - 252 Palkia, Manaphy, Mew (100)
• 289 - 252 Rayquaza (95)
• 280 - One DD Reaches 420 speed (DD Rayquaza)
• 279 - 252 Dialga, Giratina, Groudon, Ho-oh, Kyogre (90)

Tier 3 (No-speed Pokes)

• 276 - no-speed Arceus (120)
• 269 - 252 Heracross (85)
• 256 - no-speed Lugia (110)
• 216 - no-speed Dialga, Giratina, Ho-oh (90)
• 196 - +nature/252 Shedinja (40)
• 179 - 252 Shedinja (40)
• 176 - no-speed Metagross, Cloyster (70)
• 158 - no-speed Tyranitar (61)
• 146 - no-speed Blissey (55)
• 116 - no-speed Forretress, Shedinja (40)
• 102 - no-speed Wobbuffet (33)

Key:
+nature/252: A pokemon with a beneficial speed nature, and 252 EVs in Speed.
252: A pokemon with a neutral speed nature, and 252 EVs in Speed.
CS: A pokemon holding a Choice Scarf.
One DD: A pokemon before or after one speed boost.
(130): A pokemon with 130 base speed.
no-speed: The pokemon does not have a beneficial speed nature, or any speed EVs.


How to use this list: Find the poke you’re building, and see how high on the list it can hit (searching on the page helps). Then, see how far you can go down the list without losing to someone you want to outspeed.

For example: Hasty (+Speed, -Def) Mewtwo with 252 EVs can hit 394 speed. But the next highest is at 384 speed (+Speed Darkrai). So Hasty Mewtwo can safely run 385 speed (216 EVs) and never lose any extra matchups.

Serebii’s D/P Stat Calculator lets you figure out how many EVs you’ll need to hit a certain speed. It’s also useful if you have a pokemon with a less than 31 IV in speed, or if your specific pokemon isn’t listed. However, keep in mind: if your pokemon has less than a 31 IV in speed, you will never be able to hit a +nature/252 speed listed for your poke!


Dragon Dance: you can find a target speed you’d like to hit after one Dragon Dance, and then multiply that target speed by 2/3. Rounding up the result will give your desired starting speed.

So if you wanted to hit 404 speed after one Dragon Dance (outspeed CS 252 Heracross), type this into your calculator:
404 * 2 / 3
to get 269.33 -> which is 270 speed.

Tier 0 (CS Users, DDers, and Hasty Deoxys-F)

• 492 - CS +nature/252 Palkia (100)
• 475 - One DD from 317 speed (Jolly Rayquaza)
• 459 - CS +nature/252 Kyogre, Groudon (90)
• 448 - CS 252 Palkia (100)
• 442 - CS +nature/252 Heracross (85)
• 438 - +nature/252 Deoxys-F (150)
• 420 - One DD from 280 speed (DD Rayquaza)
• 418 - CS 252 Dialga, Kyogre, Groudon (90)
• 403 - CS 252 Heracross (85)

Tier 1 (110 to Mild Deoxys-F)

• 399 - 252 Deoxys-F (150)
• 394 - +nature/252 Mewtwo (130)
• 393 - CS +nature/252 Metagross (70)
• 383 - +nature/252 Darkrai (125)
• 376 - CS +nature/252 Scizor (65)
• 372 - +nature/252 Arceus (120)
• 359 - 252 Mewtwo (130)
• 358 - CS 252 Metagross (70)
• 350 - +nature/252 Latias, Latios (110)
• 349 - 252 Darkrai (125)
• 343 - CS 252 Scizor (65)
• 339 - 252 Arceus (120)

Tier 2 (90 to 100 base speed)

• 328 - +nature/252 Palkia, Manaphy, Mew (100)
• 319 - 252 Latias, Latios (110)
• 317 - +nature/252 Rayquaza (95)
• 306 - +nature/252 Dialga, Giratina, Groudon, Ho-oh, Kyogre (90)
• 299 - 252 Palkia, Manaphy, Mew (100)
• 289 - 252 Rayquaza (95)
• 280 - One DD Reaches 420 speed (DD Rayquaza)
• 279 - 252 Dialga, Giratina, Groudon, Ho-oh, Kyogre (90)

Tier 3 (No-speed Pokes)

• 276 - no-speed Arceus (120)
• 269 - 252 Heracross (85)
• 256 - no-speed Lugia (110)
• 216 - no-speed Dialga, Giratina, Ho-oh (90)
• 196 - +nature/252 Shedinja (40)
• 179 - 252 Shedinja (40)
• 176 - no-speed Metagross, Cloyster (70)
• 158 - no-speed Tyranitar (61)
• 146 - no-speed Blissey (55)
• 116 - no-speed Forretress, Shedinja (40)
• 102 - no-speed Wobbuffet (33)

To-Do / How YOU can help:

• Any suggestions comments – anything and everything is welcome. I want this list to be as easy to use and as valuable as possible!

I'd say you add CS Mewtwo to the list. 444 without any EVs, neutral nature.

might as well add all of the Metagross variants onto this list rather than just a no-speed one. i've seen all kinds of 'Gross popping up in Ubers

It is very nit-picky, but why not add max speed (no nature) Sheddy there? I mean what else will it use the EV's on, and it will allow it to outspeed Blissey and no-speed Tar.

Since you've got Heracross on the list, might I suggest adding Scizor? It has some nice resists to stuff in ubers (namely the Steel resist to Dragon and Psychic), and hits psychics super-effective.

Sorry if I missed it if it was on the list, but Choice Scarf Darkrai is worth mentioning for a fast Dark Void. :)

Timid CS Palkia needs to be added and I don't see why the Latis are on there with CS, but maybe they have their merits.

Aamto12 said:

I'd say you add CS Mewtwo to the list. 444 without any EVs, neutral nature.

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With a Choice Scarf, Mewtwo can hit whatever the hell speed it wants, so I'm figuring he won't be a target to beat. I doubt any Mewtwo would settle for 444 speed. (Maxing Atk and Sp.Atk??)

nomargu46 said:

might as well add all of the Metagross variants onto this list rather than just a no-speed one. i've seen all kinds of 'Gross popping up in Ubers

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Which types would you suggest? I've not seen any Metagross with any serious speed on them. Although there's a lot on the speed list around Metagross, it usually doesn't face off against those in ubers (except Blissey, but she never runs speed EVs).

Sir Spanky said:

It is very nit-picky, but why not add max speed (no nature) Sheddy there? I mean what else will it use the EV's on, and it will allow it to outspeed Blissey and no-speed Tar.

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Lol, true. Max Sp.Atk and Atk Shedinja, gooo!

Added.

OmegaDonut said:

Since you've got Heracross on the list, might I suggest adding Scizor? It has some nice resists to stuff in ubers (namely the Steel resist to Dragon and Psychic), and hits psychics super-effective.

Click to expand...

0_0 Serious? That seems pretty nice, even though I've never seen a Scizor in ubers (or even a Heracross, for that matter). I'll add it, simply because the list is so small; why not... but really does it get used at all?

Scarf Lati@s should not be on the list, because they'll be using Soul Dew, otherwise you might as well just use Mewtwo or Rayquaza, really.

adman2 said:

Sorry if I missed it if it was on the list, but Choice Scarf Darkrai is worth mentioning for a fast Dark Void. :)

Click to expand...

Same as with Scarf Mewtwo, Scarf Darkrai can hit whatever speed it wants to, and would never run max speed w/ Scarf. Even more relevant, Scarf Mewtwo would never care what speed that was, anyway, to beat a Scarf Dark Void. =/

husk said:

Timid CS Palkia needs to be added

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Done!

husk said:

and I don't see why the Latis are on there with CS, but maybe they have their merits.

Click to expand...

Obi said:

Scarf Lati@s should not be on the list, because they'll be using Soul Dew, otherwise you might as well just use Mewtwo or Rayquaza, really.

Click to expand...

Oops, haha, right. Soul Dew. x_x

Fixed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Aamto12
I'd say you add CS Mewtwo to the list. 444 without any EVs, neutral nature.

Click to expand...

With a Choice Scarf, Mewtwo can hit whatever the hell speed it wants, so I'm figuring he won't be a target to beat. I doubt any Mewtwo would settle for 444 speed. (Maxing Atk and Sp.Atk??)

Click to expand...

Why not settle for 444? You're already faster than anything practical (I guess you can go a little more for CS Palkia, however rare they may be), so there's little point in pumping anymore into speed. The EVs are better spent maximizing Sp.Attack and HP or Attack if you plan to explode.

Thus, 444 is a reasonable speed for Scarftwo to settle at, and it is beatable by other CS users.

Scarf Mewtwo can get 477 with an 88 EV investment (outrunning DDquaza is huge).


EDIT: I'm pretty sure CS Darkrai would want to be there too.

I believe powerful pokemon with Chlorophyl (Shiftry, Tangrowth, any I forgot) should be on this list.



And possibly Cherrim.



Edit: And you know what, Powerful Swift Swimmers (Kingdra, Kabutops, any I forgot) Could stand to be on the list too.

Blackbeltsam said:

I believe powerful pokemon with Chlorophyl (Shiftry, Tangrowth, any I forgot) should be on this list.



And possibly Cherrim.



Edit: And you know what, Powerful Swift Swimmers (Kingdra, Kabutops, any I forgot) Could stand to be on the list too.

Click to expand...

What the hell are you talking about? This is ubers son.

While we're on that subject... why not Ninjask? :-p

Anyway... good list. Nice, clean, and simple. Shows exactly how much trick-room screws Ubers over.

Scizor should be at 373 or 340 since it's not going to be of any use without a choice scarf.

sa17dk said:

What the hell are you talking about? This is ubers son.

Click to expand...

....... Ever heard of weather based teams? They are quite popular thanks to Drought and Drizzle. Well, they basically exist because of them.

[FONT=&quot]Key:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

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You mucked this up. Also, Scarf Metagross could use a mention I think.

What about the possibility of Jolly Scarfcross so designed for Deoxys-F? It can reach a maximum of 442.

Aamto12 said:

Why not settle for 444?

...

Thus, 444 is a reasonable speed for Scarftwo to settle at, and it is beatable by other CS users.

Click to expand...

husk said:

Scarf Mewtwo can get 477 with an 88 EV investment (outrunning DDquaza is huge).

EDIT: I'm pretty sure CS Darkrai would want to be there too.

Click to expand...

The reason for this list, is so that someone can see hard speeds they'll want to meet to beat other pokes. Someone speccing their Scarf Mewtwo would look at it, and see, "ah, I probably want to hit 444 or 477" (if they're not worried about CS Palkia or worried about DD Rayquaza, for instance).


If you start adding intermediate speeds, the list can expand infinitely. Take for example Hasty Mewtwo. Hasty Mewtwo rarely actually runs 394 speed, because it only needs to outspeed Darkrai, by hitting 385 speed.

I could add that to the list; it is extremely common... A devious trainer might run their Deoxys-F at 386 speed, just to beat these Mewtwos and carve out some extra Atk EVs, or whatever. So maybe I could add that speed, as well, so that smart Mewtwo users can run 387 speed to outrun the tricky Deoxys-F users... etc. etc. etc.

The reality is Deoxys-F will always run 395 or higher speed, so it can outrun all Mewtwos, irregardless of how crafty they're being. That's the only speed for Mewtwo a Deoxys trainer cares about: its max, because it doesn't want to try and hit a sliding target.


For Scarf Mewtwo, it's a similar sliding target. Scarf Mewtwo can hit whatever the heck ridiculous speed it wants to. The only speed I'd add would be max-speed Scarf Mewtwo, so that Scarf Deoxys-F can know what speed it needs to top to beat Scarf Mewtwo. (And those aren't on the list simply because they're unreasonably rare.)

You'll note, though, the one exception is the super-common DD Rayquaza build. This, too, is a sliding scale, but every single Adamant DD Rayquaza is currently specced this way, so it's on the list as a useful signpost.

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Blackbeltsam said:

I believe powerful pokemon with Chlorophyl (Shiftry, Tangrowth, any I forgot) should be on this list.

Click to expand...

As stated above, the best Chlorophyl user was Exeggutor, who was run as a Groudon counter. With Groudon being rare enough as it is, Exeggutor doesn't exist in ubers in this gen (or any other Chlorophyller).

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Blackbeltsam said:

And possibly Cherrim.

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Lol. Your humor is appreciated, but take it elsewhere, sir! ;-)

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Blackbeltsam said:

Edit: And you know what, Powerful Swift Swimmers (Kingdra, Kabutops, any I forgot) Could stand to be on the list too.

Click to expand...

Hmm, true. Kingdra might fare well in a rain-heavy metagame. However, I haven't seen any yet. Have you?

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Dragontamer said:

Anyway... good list. Nice, clean, and simple. Shows exactly how much trick-room screws Ubers over.

Click to expand...

Lol, let me know how well you do with Trick Room.

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husk said:

Scizor should be at 373 or 340 since it's not going to be of any use without a choice scarf.

Click to expand...

Good point. I've removed its other entries and added Scarf ones at 376 and 343. Double check my math, please.

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Mekkah said:

You mucked this up.

Click to expand...

Ahh, my sincere apologies for mucking!

Good catch. Fixed!

Mekkah said:

Also, Scarf Metagross could use a mention I think.

Click to expand...

Nice, okay! Added!

Hmm, do you think he'd run Adamant, or Jolly? Eh, I'll put on both.

Ahh, poor CS Meta falls 1 point short of Mewtwo in both cases... T_T

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Lemmiwinks MkII said:

What about the possibility of Jolly Scarfcross so designed for Deoxys-F? It can reach a maximum of 442.

Click to expand...

Ooh, that'd be a nasty surprise if Deoxys-F tries to come in on Hera with a revenge kill, hah.

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Hmmm, I've just added an ass-ton of pokes I've never ever seen in an ubers match. Don't be offended if I trim the list down later, guys.

Mewtwo also runs 385 speed for Darkrai. Needs mention of Agility Deoxys-L (16 evs, 220, Agility boost 434), max speed Jolly Ninjask (460), and Salac Smeargle (252 evs, 273, Salac Boost 409).

I myself use Kingdra in conjunction with Kyogre.



And as for mentioning Cherrim....well, I'll admit in singles Cherrim has no place in Ubers.



But in a doubles environment, Cherrim is Groudon's best friend.

I'll be taking this up for HTMLization if there is anything you feel should be added to this feel free to let me know ^_^. Thank you.

~edit~ Just keeping everyone updated I've finished HTMLizing this I'm just waiting for extra suggestions.
~edit2~ Added Garchomp(Jolly and Adamant variants) along with Adamant Scarf'd.
~edit3~Not too sure if I should add that SC.
~edit4~I already added those two a while ago.
~edit5~Changed Deoxys-F to Deoxys-A added no speed Kyogre and Groudon added no Speed base 100s as well.
~edit6~I myself have no idea why a Shedinja would run no Speed but I'm leaving it in there just in case. Just like the OU counterpart of this Speed Tiers List I'm not sure if I should add set specific speed numbers so I'll leave them out for now. Adding Lugia to the base 110ers.
~edit7~Added Neutral and +Speed Scizor to the list along with Scarftar(Neutral and +Speed). Added Deoxys-S and Skarmory.

Special thanks to everyone who posted here to help me out.

Good list. I think though that Garchomp (scarf) and non scarf but max speed needs mention. he is fairly common in ubers and is on most ss uber teams.