Gastrodon (GP 0/2)

GtM

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Gastrodon

QC: (firecape, Fireburn)
GP: ( , , , )

[Overview]

<p>Gastrodon can do one thing and one thing alone in Ubers: wall the most popular Pokémon in the metagame, Kyogre. With access to Recover, Toxic, Mirror Coat, Yawn and other annoying moves, Gastrodon can come in for free on Kyogre and provide team support, spreading status or just being annoying in general. Whilst Gastrodon faces competition from Shedinja and Quagsire in the anti-Kyogre-annoyer field, it requires less team support than Shedinja to be successful and has far better special bulk than Quagsire, arguably making it the best option. Not only that, but Gastrodon can also hit surprisingly hard if it manages to get a Storm Drain boost. By surprisingly hard I mean it can dent stuff at all. Gastrodon can also check other special attackers such as Palkia and even some Dialga through the use of Mirror Coat.</p>

[Set]
name: Tank
move 1: Scald
move 2: Recover
move 3: Toxic
move 4: Mirror Coat / Earthquake / Clear Smog
item: Leftovers
ability: Storm Drain
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 248 SpD / 8 Spe

[Set Comments]
<p>One of Gastrodon's best qualities is its ability to come in on offensive Kyogre and stop it in its tracks. With immunities to both Water Spout and Thunder, and taking only 22.1% - 26.4% from unboosted Ice Beam, Gastrodon can simply Toxic Kyogre and spam Recover until Kyogre dies or switches out. Needless to say, this set is most effective against Choiced Kyogre, but it can also deal with other sets in a pinch. Support sets which run Thunder Wave over Water Spout are easily dealt with, and offensive Calm Mind sets also run into trouble. Even a +6 Ice Beam isn't guaranteed an OHKO, at which point Toxic will have likely killed Kyogre. Rest Talk sets are troublesome since they can PP stall Gastrodon successfully, although if Sleep Talk selects Surf persistently then Gastrodon can boost the power of its own Scald to devestating levels, boosted further by the opposing Kyogre's rain.</p>

<p>Scald is used as Gastrodon's primary attacking move, since thanks to the various boosts to Water moves gained by switching into Kyogre, Scald can hit neutral targets hard. It also has the advantage of being able to status Steel types, who can otherwise come in on Gastrodon fairly easily. Recover is godly for Gastrodon and vastly increases its stalling power against many special attackers. Toxic is used to stack up residual damage and to help Gastrodon stall in the first place, although if Toxic Spikes support is provided then Gastrodon can possibly afford to run an extra attacking or utility move in its place. Mirror Coat is the primary option for the last slot since it allows Gastrodon to check many other special attackers, such as Palkia and Dialga. With the given EV set, Gastrodon is never 2HKO'd by Timid Lustrous Orb Palkia's Spacial Rend, and thus Gastrodon can rebound the attack with Mirror Coat for an easy OHKO on Palkia whilst recovering off the damage at some other point. Dialga's Draco Meteor also fails to 2HKO Gastrodon, letting it switch in and recover off the damage. However, Gastrodon has several other viable options for the last slot. Earth Power provides useful secondary STAB and can hit Dragon types harder than Surf after the Storm Drain boost that Kyogre will often provide. Clear Smog can be used to deal with Calm Mind users more directly; although it fails against Steel Arceus. On the other hand, Mirror Coat is arguably more effective against some CM users, since they will often fail to OHKO you with their attacks and you can bounce back the damage for an easy OHKO of your own. For example, a +6 Steel Arceus Judgment only deals 57.7% - 68.3% to Gastrodon.</p>

[Additional Comments]
<p>The speed EVs are used to outspeed uninvested Forretress, saving you a layer of hazards in certain situations, which is always nice. Furthermore, if Gastrodon has absorbed one of Kyogre's attacks and they switch to Forretress in response, with the Rain and Storm Drain boosts even the specially defensive set is easily 2HKO'd by Scald. A physically defensive EV spread is also usable, and helps to make Gastrodon with Clear Smog a more reliable check to many physical attackers. With 252 Def EVs and a Calm nature, Gastrodon can take a +2 LO ExtremeSpeed from Arceus and two Outrages from Lustrous Orb Palkia. It can also survive a Hi Jump Kick from 252 Adamant LO Blaziken. It's not particularly good though, since most teams that use Gastrodon to ward off Kyogre would be using its antithesis Groudon, which obviously outclasses Gastrodon as a physical wall. Ice Beam can also be used as a secondary attacking option, since it hits Grass and Dragon types that resist Scald hard.</p>

[Other Options]
<p>Yawn lets you try and phaze or induce Sleep, but fails to be useful against the somewhat common Rest Talk Kyogre, and synergises poorly with Toxic and Scald's chances to inflict status. Memento is a somewhat interesting option, or at least it would be if Gastrodon was fast enough to use it well. Counter can also be used somwhat effectively; Scarf Zekrom's Outrage will always fail to OHKO, but don't ask me how you'd get Gastrodon to switch in on it. The mixed set's Dragon Claw will also fail to OHKO but its Outrage stands a 50% chance, so be warned. Defensive investment is highly required in this case so that you can survive all manner of LO Outrages; Gastrodon still deals fairly well with Kyogre even without Special Defense investment. Stockpile is also present, but inevitably leaves you as setup bait to the multiple Calm Mind users in the tier, and other boosters such as Extremekiller Arceus.</p>

[Checks and Counters]
<p>In two words, Grass types. Shaymin-S completely destroys Gastrodon no matter what it attempts to do, whilst Ferrothorn can OHKO all Gastrodon with an uninvested Power Whip. Shaymin-S can easily get a Substitute up if Gastrodon lacks Ice Beam, whilst Ferrothorn can set up Spikes or Stealth Rock with impunity. Grass Arceus poses an enormous threat since it can force Gastrodon out for a free boost. Even if Gastrodon stays in and uses Toxic, if Arceus has Refresh it can often get multiple boosts at no real cost. Groudon can hit Gastrodon hard and set up on it, although if Groudon is present on the opponent's team, Kyogre will most likely not be there, giving your team a small advantage. Particular variants of Kyogre can also prove annoying to face, with Rest Talk and Sub CM being able to block status effectively and be able to PP stall Gastrodon if necessary.</p>

<p>Generally speaking, however, Gastrodon just isn't effective in the tier at all outside of its niche of dealing with certain special attackers. If Gastrodon is being used in a situation where it isn't reacting to a special attacker, chances are it isn't going to pose a threat to your team.</p>

[Dream World]
<p>Gastrodon's hidden ability, Sand Force, has been released. Unfortunately, using Sand Force prevents you from using Storm Drain, which is the primary reason for using Gastrodon in the first place. Even with Sand Force, Gastrodon is largely inferior to Pokémon like Landorus, Excadrill and Ground or Rock Arceus.</p>
 
On the first set, Scald should be the primary slash so you can threaten steel types with status. Also, yawn should be mentioned somewhere.

I dont see the second set doing anything. Boost your stats all you want, but it is still going to get phazed out, and you can not really threaten any common phazers with anything other than a 30% burn chance from scald.
 
First set is cool.

Second set needs to go, all it does it sit there, gets set up on, and can't inflict damage.

I'll look at it again once you finish the skeleton.
 
RaikouLover said:
No Specs Gastro? Surfs up dude! (Storm Drained obviously).
Click to expand...

Next comes CB Quagsire? But seriously though, why would you use Specs? Its niche is to wall kyogre, not to try and sweep stuff, because it just plain outclassed in that role. (Specs Palk, SpD Bulk Up Dialga, CB Ferrothorn)
 
Specs Gastrodon is good, but not in Ubers. Especially when your main STAB can't hit a tier full of Dragons, and Earth Power is so easy to switch on.

The last set is a joke set that I run for a while, 6-0'd some guys in Ou but that was it. I'll remove it.

Mirror Coat is really good! I've swapped Clear Smog for it and have no regrets.
 
Without clear smog, though, you essentially die to sub CM kyogre, what it is meant to beat. That's why quagsire does better so clear smog may still deserve a slash.
 
Just saying, even with Storm Drain and Clear Smog, you still lose to Calm Mind RestTalk Kyogre since you have absolutely no way of taking it out, while it can just sit there and PP stall you to death if need be. With Toxic Spikes, Gastrodon will lose to even SubCM Kyogre since you'll die much quicker.
 
calze6 said:
Without clear smog, though, you essentially die to sub CM kyogre, what it is meant to beat. That's why quagsire does better so clear smog may still deserve a slash.
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Quagsire can't do better with Encore, it's slower than Kyogre for a start and your switch in only gets a single turn to take Kyogre out. If you're using something Scarf Zekrom then that's fine, but you could switch him in without bothering with Encore in the first place so long as you predict the opponent not using Ice Beam.

Admittedly, Gastrodon can't deal with Rest Talk Kyogre very well, other than attempting to PP stall it into Struggling. I'll mention that being a potential weakness in the analysis.

But to re-iterate, Gastrodon with Clear Smog, Recover, Toxic and Scald has 65 PP total. Kyogre with Rest, Sleep Talk, Calm Mind and Surf also has 65 PP, total. So if Gastrodon switches into Kyogre, then it's already won any PP war that might occur. So Kyogre can't stall Gastrodon out unless it runs Scald, but Clear Smog ensures it won't do too much damage to a switch in anyways.
 
GtM said:
Admittedly, Gastrodon can't deal with Rest Talk Kyogre very well, other than attempting to PP stall it into Struggling. I'll mention that being a potential weakness in the analysis.

But to re-iterate, Gastrodon with Clear Smog, Recover, Toxic and Scald has 65 PP total. Kyogre with Rest, Sleep Talk, Calm Mind and Surf also has 65 PP, total. So if Gastrodon switches into Kyogre, then it's already won any PP war that might occur. So Kyogre can't stall Gastrodon out unless it runs Scald, but Clear Smog ensures it won't do too much damage to a switch in anyways.
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Actualy, Kyogre can use Rest to waste time sleeping and win PP wars, but against Gastrodon ? No, he is the one in trouble. Every time Kyogre uses Surf/Scald or picks it with Sleep Talk, Gastrodon gains a boost. So considering that Toxik and Rest have the same PP, Clear Smog Gastrodon should be fine.

Sub/Calm Mind Kyogre is a problem obviously.

Good Analysis, Gastrodon is a cool improvement from GenIV Quagsire.
 
Its whatever, just highlight Zekrom as a partner for dealing with CM ogre and call it a day. Most tailor made Kyogre counters have trouble with the RestTalk set anyway. Also, I think the spread should be 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD. It may only be one point, but it is going to do more in Defense than Special Attack.
 
calze6 said:
Remember, that clear smog also halts other stuff like SD arceus and BU dialga (to an extent).
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Clear Smog will not really stop SD Arceus at all. With as little as a Silk Scarf, 252/0 Neutral Gastrodon is OHKOd by +2 Extremespeed (or Dragon Claw in Dragon Arceus' case). Gastrodon will have to predict between SD and an actual attack to decide when to Clear Smog and when to Recover, which is an extremely risky game considering it is largely 2HKOd.

As for Dialga, Clear Smog is a poison-type attack and does not affect it, so it is essentially a useless attack. Unless the removal of stat boosts is an additional side-effect, in which case yeah, it checks Dialga.
 
Should I mention that a physically defensive spread can also be used, since it helps Gastrodon take Outrages and the like whilst Gastrodon still takes low damage from Kyogre's Ice Beam?
 
AC it, but gastro is really only there to counter kyogre, so it shouldn't really compromise its ability to do that just to take a random outrage, which will probably still 2hko, anyway.
 
Physical defensive set is not worth it.

I like Mirror Coat as an option as well, pretty cool.

Still not sure about this yet though, I'll discuss with the other QCers.
 
Fireburn's right, physically defensive Gastrodon sucks in Ubers. Why won't I use Giratina or Lugia over it...

Mention Earthquake somewhere, since even with the low attack stat, it prevents certain Arceus formes, such as Steel and Dialga from coming in on you for free.

I won't stamp this yet. When I used Gastrodon, I find it to be rather useless outside of beating most Kyogre forms. It's almost always not worth it to use it over say Palkia on a stall team because Palkia does so much more.

Steelix beats physical Zekrom easily too but it is rather shabby in Ubers because things like Ground Arceus and Ferrothorn have more utility.

EDIT: Unless someone proves how useful Gastrodon is, I will wait for the Ubers Mods to stamp/reject it.
 
It's a niche poke; gastro is really poor at pretty much everything else, but the fact that it trolls the #1 poke in the metagame is reason enough to at least provide an analysis for it. I would never in a million years actually use it over palkia or ferro, but I have seen it used with decent success (Although usually any real damage it did to anything but kyogre was just by virtue of the opponent not really knowing the thing has mirror coat) gluing together really kyogre-weak teams. Unfortunately, nearly anything that considers itself a sweeper in any facet can usually salt the shit out of gastrodon, but the same goes for forre, chansey, and quite a few other defensively oriented pokes, too, so its not like that is a new concept.

I think it is the most consistent niche ogre counter, at the very least better than quag and shedinja. Oh, and considering qc is giving quagsire crap (not undeserved) for being outclassed by gastrodon, that in its own right leans toward the need for an analysis... right?

@TR steellix beats physical zekrom, yes, but zek isn't the most common (and arguably the most dangerous) poke in the metagame. I know you aren't validating steelix, I am just saying that it isn't really the best comparison because zek kinda blows and ogre is really rape, so the need to have tailor made counters is different.
 
OK, after like 20 battles of Gastrodon, I like it more now LOL. One of the main reason is, Gastrodon has an Electric immune and stops almost all Kyogre sets at the same time. It beats Steelceus with Scald untill it burns and repeated Earthquakes. Walling Mixed Palkia without Outrage and Scarf Palkia/Dialga is something useful.

Gastrodon beats non Specs Dialga so I think that means a lot. I will like to see Earthquake slashed in over one move, and slash in Sassy nature. Reason is while Storm Drain raises Special Attack, Earthquakes allows Gastrodon to hit Steel Arceus without getting affected by Calm Minds.

Earth Power can allow a +1 Gastrodon to beat Bulk Up Dialga though. I think I will ask the Uber moderators first before coming back to stamp it.
 
Assuming Gastrodon comes in on Surf/Fire Blast/Thunder/Aqua Tail, it stands a chance of walling Mixed Palkia. Mixed Palkia is hard to counter bar Lugia or some Arceus formes. Gastrodon has meish stats anyway but decent typing.

Gastrodon also completely wallls Qwilfish and Kabutops LOL I guess that counts for random teams who need a Swords Dance Swift Swimmer and Kyogre check. Earthquake will KO both Kabutops and Qwilfish after LO damage.
 
Ok I've used this a bit and I'm going to say it definitely deserves an analysis. I like using a Calm Nature with 12 Evs in Speed, which allows you to outspeed Forretress. It doesn't really take that much away from the defenses (just 8 less EVs in SpD) but with a bit of hazard support you can 2HKO Forretress with Scald (With just SR and Spikes Scald is a guarenteed 2HKO against 252/252+ Forry). Therefore, shift the 4 EVs in Def and 8 EVs from SpD into Speed to outspeed 0 Speed Forretress. Slash a Calm Nature on and mention the to only use Sassy if you are using Earthquake. With that:

QC Approved 1/2
 
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