Updated Ubers Threat List

Ubers Threat List
In alphabetical order

Offensive Threats

Tier 1

Arceus

• Extreme Killer (Swords Dance) -
• Choice Band -

Arceus-Fighting

• Calm Mind -

Arceus-Ghost

• Calm Mind -
• Swords Dance -

Arceus-Ground

• Calm Mind -
• Swords Dance -

Darkrai

• Special Sweeper -
• Choice Scarf -
• Double Status -
  

Dialga

• Special Attacker -
• Mixed -
• Bulk Up + RestTalk -
• Choice Scarf -

Groudon

• Rock Polish -
• Paradancer -
• Choice Band -
• Offensive Stealth Rock -

Ho-Oh

• Tank -
• Physical Sweeper -
• Choice Scarf -

Kyogre

• Choice Scarf -
• Choice Specs -
• Calm Mind + 3 Attacks -
• Mono-Attacker -
• Thunder Wave -
• SubCM -
• ChestoRest -

Kyurem-W

• Choice Specs -
• Choice-less -
• Choice Scarf -

Latias

• Offensive Pivot -
• Stallbreaker -
• All-Out Special Attacker -

Latios

• Calm Mind -
• All-Out Special Attacker -
• Special Dragon Dance -

Mewtwo

• Psycho Killer -
• Bulky Attacker -
• Choice Scarf -

Palkia

• Choice Scarf -
• Specially Based Mix -
• Choice Specs -
• Blissey Boxer -
• Physically Based Mix -

Rayquaza

• Dragon Dance -
• Mixed Attacker -
• Mixed Dancer -
• Swords Dance -
• Choice Scarf -
• Choice Band -

Tier 2

Arceus-Dark

• Calm Mind -

Arceus-Dragon

• Swords Dance -
• Calm Mind -

Arceus-Electric

• Calm Mind -

Arceus-Steel

• Calm Mind -
• Swords Dance -

Blaziken

• Swords Dance -

Deoxys-A

• Life Orb -
• Focus Sash Attacker -

Excadrill

• Bulky -
• Offensive -

Garchomp

• Choice Scarf -
• Swords Dance -
• Choice Band -
• Substitute + Swords Dance -

Genesect

• Specially Based Choice Scarf -
• Physically Based Choice Scarf -
• Specially Based Attacker -
• Physically Based Attacker -
• Choice Band -

Giratina-O

• Mixed Attacker -
• Calm Mind -
• Sleeping Beauty (Mono-Attacker) -
• Substitute Shuffler -

Kabutops

• Cleaner -
• Choice Band -

Kingdra

• Mixed Attacker -
• Dragon Dance -
• Choice Specs -

Kyurem-B

• Mixed -
• Mixed Hone Claws -
• Choice Band -
• Choice Scarf -

Mamoswine

• Physical Attacker -

Reshiram

• Choice Specs -
• Choice Scarf -
• Substitute -
• Flame Charge -
• Sunny Day -

Salamence

• Choice Scarf -
• Dragon Dance -

Shaymin-S

• SubSeed -
• Choice Scarf -
• Special Sweeper -
• Choice Specs -

Terrakion

• Choice Scarf -
• Double Dancer -
• Choice Band -
• Substitute + Swords Dance -

Tyranitar

• Tank -
• Choice Band -

Zekrom

• Mixed -
• Choice Band -
• Choice Scarf -
• Substitute + Hone Claws -

Tier 3

Arceus-Fire

• Calm Mind -

Arceus-Grass

• Calm Mind -

Arceus-Ice

• Calm Mind -

Arceus-Psychic

• Calm Mind -

Arceus-Rock

• Mono-Attacker -
• Offensive Calm Mind -
• Swords Dance -

Arceus-Water

• Swords Dance -
• Offensive Calm Mind -
• Defensive Calm Mind -

Cloyster

• Shell Smash -

Heatran

• Choice Scarf -

Giratina

• Boosting Tank -
• Chesto Rest -

Gorebyss

• Smash Pass -

Jirachi

• Choice Scarf -

Landorus

• Swords Dance -
• Choice Scarf -

Landorus-T

• SubSD -
• Double Dancer -
• Choice Band -

Lugia

• Offensive Calm Mind -

Magnezone

• SubCharge -
• Choice Specs -
• Dual Screens -

Manaphy

• Calm Mind -
• Tail Glow -

Metagross

• Choice Band -

Scizor

• Choice Band -
• Swords Dance -
• Specially Defensive -

Thundurus

• Prankster -
• Nasty Plot -

Tornadus-T

• All-Out Attacker -
• Choice Specs -

Venusaur

• Special Growth -
• Mixed Growth -

Tier 4

Abomasnow

• Tank -

Arceus-Bug

• Calm Mind -
• Swords Dance -

Arceus-Flying

• Calm Mind -

Arceus-Poison

• Calm Mind -

Bisharp

• Swords Dance -

Bronzong

• Trickroom -
• Choice Band -

Dugtrio

• Substitute + Hone Claws -

Ferrothorn

• Choice Band -

Gengar

• Choice Scarf -

Gyarados

• Taunt Support -
• Choice Band -
  

Heracross

• Choice Scarf -
• Choice Band -

Hydreigon

• Choice Scarf -

Jynx

• Nasty Plot -

Ludicolo

• Rain Sweeper -

Omastar

• Shell Smash -

Qwilfish

• Support -
• Swords Dance -

Shiftry

• Special Sweeper -

Thundurus-T

• Choice Scarf -
• Life Orb -
  
• Agility -
  

Tornadus

• Tailwind -

Victini

• Choice Scarf -
• Choice Band -
• Trickroom -

Tier 5

Lucario

• Swords Dance -

Shedinja

• Wall -
• Swords Dance -

Defensive Threats

Tier 1

Arceus-Ghost

• Calm Mind -
• Support -

Arceus-Grass

• Calm Mind -
• Support -

Arceus-Steel

• Calm Mind -
• Support -

Blissey

• Support -

Chansey

• Support -

Dialga

• Defensive -

Ferrothorn

• Support -

Forretress

• Specially Defensive -

Giratina

• Great Wall -
• Specially Defensive -

Giratina-O

• Mixed Attacker -
• RestTalk Shuffler -

Groudon

• Support -

Kyogre

• [Bulky] Choice Scarf Kyogre -
• Mono-Attacker Kyogre -

Latias

• Offensive Pivot -
• Stallbreaker -
• Specially Defensive -
• Support -

Lugia

• Great Wall -
• SubRoost -
• Specially Defensive -
• RestTalk Shuffler -
• Defensive Calm Mind -

Tier 2

Arceus

• Wallceus (Physical Wall) -

Arceus-Fighting

• Utility Counter -

Arceus-Ground

• Support -

Arceus-Poison

• Support -

Arceus-Rock

• Mono-Attacker -

Excadrill

• Bulky -

Gliscor

• Substitute -

Heatran

• Stallbreaker -

Ho-Oh

• Tank -
• Physically Defensive -

Jirachi

• Wish Support -

Palkia

• Choice Scarf -

Skarmory

• Support -

Tentacruel

• Support -

Tyranitar

• Tank -
• Choice Band -

Tier 3

Arceus-Dark

• Support -

Arceus-Psychic

• Utility Counter -

Arceus-Water

• Defensive Calm Mind -
• Sun Support -

Bronzong

• Tank -

Cresselia

• Lunar Dance + Dual Screens -
• Wall -

Hippowdon

• Physical Wall -

Landorus-T

• Physically Defensive -

Metagross

• Choice Band -

Mewtwo

• StallTwo -

Scizor

• Specially Defensive -

Xatu

• Dual Screens -

Tier 4

Deoxys-D

• Agility + Taunt -
• Utility Wall -

Gastrodon

• Tank -

Gyarados

• Taunt Support -

Jumpluff

• Support -
• SubSeed -

Ludicolo

• SubSeed -

Whimsicott

• SubSeed -

Tier 5

Shedinja

• Wall -
• Swords Dance -

Miscellaneous Threats

Deoxys

• Offensive Dual Screens -

Deoxys-S

• Suicide Lead -
• Dual Screens -
• Choice Scarf -

Ditto

• Imposter -

Froslass

• Spikes -

Latios

• Dual Screens -

Smeargle

• Smash Pass -
• Lv 1 FEAR -

Wobbuffet

• OH NO, IT'S WOBBA! -

A massive thank you to Trickroom, Jibaku, and Superimp for sorting this out.

Baton Pass trolling probably deserves a mention, over then that this list is pretty good,

Um....Poppy. Is there any reason or method with which this threatlist has been made? I am talking about the order of the threats. For example, why is Kabutops higher than Reshiram in the threatlist? All I am asking is, is the threats listed in order of its offensive/defensive prowess or is it random?

This looks more like a tier list than a threat list to me - if you wanted to make a threat list you wouldn't really rank them. I've been thinking about making something like this but tierlists in general can be somewhat misguiding. Regardless, I guess I'll post where I stand on this

Offensive Tier List

Tier 1
Kyogre, Arceus-Normal, Arceus-Ghost, Mewtwo, Palkia, Dialga, Groudon, Kyurem-W, Arceus-Ground, Latios, Latias, Ho-Oh, Rayquaza, Darkrai, Arceus-Fighting

Tier 2
Giratina-O, Zekrom, Reshiram, Deoxys-A, Shaymin-S, Terrakion, Excadrill, Arceus-Steel, Arceus-Dark, Arceus-Electric, Kabutops, Garchomp, Blaziken, Tyranitar, Arceus-Dragon, Salamence, Kingdra, Mamoswine, Kyurem-B

Tier 3
Thundurus, Heatran, Arceus-Grass, Arceus-Rock, Arceus-Water, Arceus-Fire, Venusaur, Scizor, Cloyster, Gorebyss, Manaphy, Arceus-Ice, Arceus-Psychic, Tornadus-T, Landorus, Lugia, Giratina, Landorus-T, Magnezone

Tier 4
Thundurus-T, Omastar, Tornadus, Hydreigon, Abomasnow, Arceus-Flying, Shiftry, Jynx, Ludicolo, Victini, Heracross, Metagross, Mew, Arceus-Poison, Arceus-Bug, Bisharp, Dugtrio, Gengar

Tier 5
Gyarados, Lucario, Shedinja

Explanation of Tiers:

The offensive tier lists focuses on, as you may have guessed, the Pokemon's offensive prowess in Ubers. This, however, does not mean that only offense is taken into account (or else Deoxys-A would be #1 or 2). A pokemon's ease in coming in and difficulty to budge are important factors for maintaining momentum, and by extension, continuing on the offensive.

Bear in mind that this list is just an opinion as to where things stand. I won't force you to agree with me.

In general, positions within their respective tiers matter (i.e Zekrom is generally more threatening than Kyurem-B)

Tier 1: Pokemon that are consistent, powerful, and otherwise annoyingly frustrating to kill or deny. There are the safest picks in the Uber metagame and generally don't require much team support. On a threat list perspective, these would be the one you want to look out for the most.

Tier 2: Strong picks but are either more team reliant or easier to stop than Tier 1 Pokemon.

Tier 3: These Pokemon are somewhat situational. Potentially strong picks, but can be denied pretty hard. Some normally defensive Pokemon with offensive sets appear here.

Tier 4: Low tier picks that can cover a specific niche but are otherwise mediocre offensive choices in Ubers. This does not mean that they are not viable, however, but be careful to only pick these Pokemon if they serve a special purpose.

Tier 5: Bad Pokemon that currently have analyses. Except for Gyarados - he's just there because of trickroom.


Defensive Tier List:

Tier 1
Ferrothorn, Groudon, Lugia, Giratina, Dialga, Chansey, Blissey, Forretress, Arceus-Ghost, Arceus-Steel, Arceus-Grass, Latias, Kyogre, Giratina-O

Tier 2
Arceus-Ground, Skarmory, Gliscor, Jirachi, Excadrill, Tentacruel, Heatran, Ho-Oh, Tyranitar, Arceus-Fighting, Arceus-Poison, Arceus-Rock, Palkia

Tier 3
Arceus-Water, Arceus-Normal, Arceus-Psychic, Arceus-Dark, Landorus-T, Mewtwo, Cresselia, Hippowdon, Xatu

Tier 4
Gastrodon, Whimsicott, Jumpluff, Venusaur, Deoxys-D, Ludicolo.

Parasect Tier (Tier 5)
Gyarados, Parasect, Paras

Explanation:
There's less Pokemon here because there's more Pokemon used for offense than defense. The defensive tier list focuses on a Pokemon's ability to wall enemies and support the team.

Tier 1: The cores of stall take the throne here. Consistent, very bulky, and supportive, these Pokemon can cover a wide variety of threats and provide a hefty amount of utility. Due to the massive presence of entry hazards in Ubers, all the spinblockers have been placed here.

Tier 2: Still powerful picks that are either less bulky or supportive as the ones in tier 1.

Tier 3: Situational, but powerful choices overall.

Tier 4: Rare and extremely situational picks.

Untiered:

Deoxys-S, Smeargle and Wobbuffet

None of these Pokemon really qualify on either category IMO. Deoxys-S is a top-tier suicidal Pokemon that mostly helps offensive teams, but it has no offense on its own. Smeargle is the same. Wobbuffet is a defensive Pokemon whose purpose is to get stuff set up on offensive teams, as well as removing Scarfers. It does not provide enough utility for stall teams to be placed under the defensive list, and can not attack on its own, so it can't be placed under offensive either.



EDIT @ firecape:

Offensive tierlist changes:

Giratina-O moved down to tier 2, Lugia added to tier 3 because it can do some damage but really not strong enough for tier 2. Heatran added to tier 3 because I forgot about him somehow. Metagross and Mew added to tier 4.

I'm keeping Groudon in tier 1 though. It's not particularly difficult to set up with its high defense, and although the release of Arceus didn't do it a lot of favors, Groudon still cleans up extremely well and it a great smashpass recipient. With screens up it can sometimes be easy to set up +2 on both attack and speed, moreso than virtually every other set up Pokemon.

I agree with this list for the most part except for a few things:

Move Giratina-O and Groudon down a tier.

Giratina-O just doesn't have the power to come in and say fuck you to everything like, say, Mewtwo. I view Giratina-O as a jack-of-all-trades master of none with great stats across the board but really specialized in nothing enough to become a hulking offensive menace or unbreakable wall.

Groudon can be pretty fearsome with double booster, but it really needs 2 turns of set up to sweep against most teams. With just a Rock Polish, it fails to OHKO things like specs Kyogre, Arceus formes with 252 HP, etc. And with Swords Dance, it's outsped by everything.

I was originally going to say Dialga too but its Steel secondary typing separates it from the other powerful Draco Meteor spammers like Reshiram.

I'd honestly rank Latios a tier lower than Latias but I guess that's just personal preference. I mean, Latias can set up on a Life Orb Draco Meteor off Modest max SpA 150 base SpA dragons if Stealth Rock isn't up. Even if Stealth Rock it only needs 182 HP investment to be able to set up safely. That's just impressive.

Also, Lugia needs to be added to tier 2 or 3. Calm Mind Lugia is pretty hard to break through, especially with Multiscale.

I can accept that Jibaku, I mostly wanted to get down all the threats in the metagame but your list has a lot more detail to it.

firecape said:

Groudon can be pretty fearsome with double booster, but it really needs 2 turns of set up to sweep against most teams. With just a Rock Polish, it fails to OHKO things like specs Kyogre, Arceus formes with 252 HP, etc. And with Swords Dance, it's outsped by everything.

Click to expand...

I'm keeping Groudon in tier 1 though. It's not particularly difficult to set up with its high defense, and although the release of Arceus didn't do it a lot of favors, Groudon still cleans up extremely well and it a great smashpass recipient. With screens up it can sometimes be easy to set up +2 on both attack and speed, moreso than virtually every other set up Pokemon.

Click to expand...

I'm gonna have to agree with Firecape on this one. You cite Groudon's ease of setting up with Smashpass and screens, but who can't? Look at your own description for tier 2.

Tier 2: Strong picks but are either more team reliant or easier to stop than Tier 1 Pokemon.

Click to expand...

Does smashpassing not count as team reliance? Screens? The fact is that Groudon usually takes at least a turn more to set up than all the other pokemon listed in the tier, and the only way that he can circumvent this is by letting his teammates set up for him. It seems to me that one of the biggest factors in tiering offensive pokemon should be how long it takes for them to set up, and Groudon just can't set up as fast compared to everything else in Tier one, most of which only need a calm mind or a swords dance and some not even needing that much.

Untiered:

Deoxys-S, Smeargle and Wobbuffet

None of these Pokemon really qualify on either category IMO. Deoxys-S is a top-tier suicidal Pokemon that mostly helps offensive teams, but it has no offense on its own. Smeargle is the same. Wobbuffet is a defensive Pokemon whose purpose is to get stuff set up on offensive teams, as well as removing Scarfers. It does not provide enough utility for stall teams to be placed under the defensive list, and can not attack on its own, so it can't be placed under offensive either.

Click to expand...

Perhaps make a third tier list for support pokemon? That would largely overlap with the defensive tier list though.

I think, in general, passers should go on the offensive list, fast frail spikers should go on the offensive list, and Wobbuffet should go on both lists with an asterisk. Passers like Smeargle and Gorebyss are not dedicated attackers (although they both learn attacking moves that are relevant to the metagame) but they are more at home in offensive teams than defensive ones, so I think it would be more reasonable to put them on the offensive list. Similarly, fast frail spikers like Deoxys-S and Froslass who are more or less "fire and forget" with their entry hazards should go on the offensive tier list because there is nothing significant that they can do to benefit defensive teams aside from setting up hazards. Wobbuffet...well, what can you really say about Wobbuffet? He's kind of an anomaly in the world of pokemon. I guess ultimately he should either be mentioned on both lists (Probably in tier 3 or 4 on each) with a disclaimer explaining the nature of how he is played or just be in his own tier.

I'd honestly rank Latios a tier lower than Latias but I guess that's just personal preference. I mean, Latias can set up on a Life Orb Draco Meteor off Modest max SpA 150 base SpA dragons if Stealth Rock isn't up. Even if Stealth Rock it only needs 182 HP investment to be able to set up safely. That's just impressive.

Click to expand...

What you say is not wrong, but the two of them are so functionally similar that I still think they should be in the same tier. Maybe if we're doing ranks within tiers we could place Latias above Latios, but I don't think it's accurate to put Latios in the same tier as Zekrom and Reshiram.

Defensive Tier List:
[...]
Tier 1: The cores of stall take the throne here. Consistent, very bulky, and supportive, these Pokemon can cover a wide variety of threats and provide a hefty amount of utility. Due to the massive presence of entry hazards in Ubers, all the spinblockers have been placed here.

Click to expand...

Where is Froslass?

That's more of a general question than a nitpick. Froslass' absence on either list is kind of puzzling to me. Did you forget about her or is it because she's in a similar position to Deoxys-S since they both have the same basic function?

Parasect Tier (Tier 5)

Click to expand...

Wouldn't this just be every pokemon that gets Dry Skin/Storm Drain/Water Absorb?

This tier is pretty much just niche counters to Kyogre, so it really shouldn't even be worth mentioning. Kyogre's the old busted. Kyurem-W's the new hotness.

Jibaku said:

I've been thinking about making something like this but tierlists in general can be somewhat misguiding.

Click to expand...

You're right. What we really need is a matchup chart.

But really, maybe it would be best to do something like this chart where we rank things by their raw ability but also how weak they are. The only problem is that each chart would have about 70 to 80 pokemon on it, which would get kind of cluttered. I also don't know how we'd do separate images for all the Arceus formes.

Finally, I'm gonna put this out there even though I know I'm going to be in the minority opinion of it - I think Rayquaza should be moved down to tier 2. There are many offensive threats that I think of when building a team, but Rayquaza is only about as consistently threatening to me as Deoxys. Like Deoxys, Rayquaza has poor defenses and gets revenge killed like crazy against anything that's either faster than it or can at least tie it and is immune to Extremespeed. On top of that, Rayquaza loses a quarter of his health just by switching in and will only lose more health after that if it uses LO (which most builds do since Lum Berry causes you to miss out on some key kills and Focus Sash just sucks). Rayquaza has just never been an issue for me and I can't think of when he would be. That's all I have to say about him.

Overall, I agree with Jibaku's tier list for the most part aside from the few things I mentioned. I think this is a good way to revamp the threatlist since if you only have a straight list of pokemon it implies that they all have the same value, even though it's pretty clear that Swift Swim pokemon are not as threatening as Dialga. Luvdisc'd.

Does smashpassing not count as team reliance? Screens? The fact is that Groudon usually takes at least a turn more to set up than all the other pokemon listed in the tier, and the only way that he can circumvent this is by letting his teammates set up for him

Click to expand...

Me citing screens and smashpass is a not contradiction to what I stated earlier. I Groudon is perfectly capable of cleaning up teams without a lot of teammate support. These things are bonuses that add on to Groudon's power, and he appreciates them more than almost every other character.

The explanations of the tiers aren't meant to be taken statically. I placed Ho-Oh in tier one because with proper support it's really deadly and hard to budge, and in turn hugely returns the favor by being able to constantly come in and burn down everything. Similarly, offensive Groudon really benefits from screens and/or smashpass, and moreso than pretty much everything else in the game. In other words, while tier 1 is generally meant for independent Pokemon, some Pokemon just become exceptionally threatening with certain viable forms of team support.

Smeargle was initially in the offense list (T3) but I was trying to be more consistent with my definitions so I took it out. Indeed, Baton Pass can be a reason why it could go on the offensive list. But then it gets complicated because stuff like Dual Screens and Spikes helps out offense. Then stuff like Forretress would have to be added to the offense list. Gorebyss went into the list because it can attack on its own, alongside its ability to pass. But maybe I'll make a special case for BP and put Smeargle back to T3.



Froslass is not a defensive spinblocker (and neither is Gengar for that matter), so they would not really fall into the defensive tier list. But yes, I did forget her, but until I figure out what to do with Deoxys-S I'll leave her untiered.

I mentioned Parasect because it's the worst Pokemon to have ever been introduced in Ubers to fill a competitive role...a role that it could get one shotted in anyways. So it's my personal grudge against it.

Rayquaza is actually a really scary Pokemon that for some reason people forgot. With the decline of Scarf Palkia DDRay has a bigger opportunity to crush teams. V-create's release was also somewhat helpful to it. Mixquaza still does absurd amounts of damage and still destroys stuff on a misprediction.

Jibaku said:

I Groudon is perfectly capable of cleaning up teams without a lot of teammate support.

Click to expand...

I can agree with Groudon in tier 1 because it OHKOes most checks that come in on the wrong moves. Palkia coming in on Rock Polish Groudon will get smashed next turn, Defensive Kyogre comes in on SD Life Orb Groudon and get OHKOed next turn. Sorry firecape, but Jibaku really sounds more convincing on Groudon Oh yeah I am a Groudon fan, Groundceus sux:P

Ho-Oh gets harmed too much by Stealth Rock even with Regenerator. Just get something to Roar it out with Stealth Rock, next turn its a dead turkey :)

How come Cresselia is not in the threat list? She got approved anyway, while Lugia sort of makes her suck, Cresselia can still set up Dual Screens and Lunar Dance next turn. Cresselia also beats non Fire Blast Mewtwo with Toxic/Thunder Wave :) Since Groudon is in tier 1, Cresselia should get a place in tier 3 IMO, if Psychic Arceus makes it there, Cresselia should. Also, Levitate is a huge advantage!

Parasect does not suck that much. It can defeat Calm Mind Arceus with Leech Seed, Spore and X-Scissors. Conveniently, Latias gets 2HKOed by X-Scissors easily while Kyogre gets nailed by Seed Bomb. Also, Dark Arceus loses to Parasect. 100% Sleep inducing move is cool enough. That said, I believe Gyarados should be TIER 1 because of its sheer power. Just ask firecape, Hugendugen or Colonel_M if you have any doubts about it.

Missing Hydreigon somewhere. Probably in Tier 3 since it does have some uses. If Gengar gets in the list, Hydreigon should. It has U-Turn and STAB Draco Meteor so I believe it deserves a spot in Tier 3. Where's Deoxys? Outclassed by Deoxys-A but it is still an Uber.

As the one who currently occupies the #1 position on the Ubers ladder on Pokémon Showdown, I believe that I am plentifully qualified to create my own version of the offensive and defensive tier lists within the Übers tier:

Offensive Tier List

Tier 1
Arceus-Normal

Tier 2
Kyogre, Arceus-Ghost, Mewtwo, Palkia, Dialga, Groudon, Kyurem-W, Arceus-Ground, Latios, Latias, Ho-Oh, Rayquaza, Darkrai, Reshiram, Deoxys-A

Tier 3
Giratina-O, Zekrom, Shaymin-S, Terrakion, Excadrill, Arceus-Steel, Arceus-Dark, Arceus-Electric, Kabutops, Garchomp, Blaziken, Tyranitar, Arceus-Dragon, Salamence, Kingdra, Mamoswine, Kyurem-B

Tier 4
Thundurus, Heatran, Arceus-Grass, Arceus-Rock, Arceus-Water, Arceus-Fire, Venusaur, Scizor, Cloyster, Gorebyss, Manaphy, Arceus-Ice, Arceus-Psychic, Tornadus-T, Landorus, Lugia, Giratina, Landorus-T, Magnezone, Arceus-Fighting

Tier 5
Thundurus-T, Tornadus, Abomasnow, Arceus-Flying, Shiftry, Omastar, Jynx, Ludicolo, Victini, Heracross, Metagross, Mew, Arceus-Poison, Arceus-Bug, Bisharp, Dugtrio, Gengar, Gyarados

Tier 6
Lucario, Shedinja


Defensive Tier List:

Tier 1
Lugia

Tier 2
Ferrothorn, Groudon, Giratina, Dialga, Chansey, Blissey, Forretress, Arceus-Ghost, Arceus-Steel, Arceus-Grass, Latias, Kyogre, Giratina-O, Ho-Oh, Arceus-Rock, Arceus-Water, Espeon, Xatu

Tier 3
Arceus-Ground, Skarmory, Gliscor, Jirachi, Excadrill, Tentacruel, Heatran, Tyranitar, Arceus-Fighting, Arceus-Poison, Palkia

Tier 4
Arceus-Normal, Arceus-Psychic, Arceus-Dark, Landorus-T, Mewtwo, Cresselia, Hippowdon, Xatu

Tier 5
Gastrodon, Whimsicott, Jumpluff, Venusaur, Deoxys-D, Ludicolo.

Parasect Tier (Tier 6)
Gyarados, Parasect, Paras

Basically, I just took Jibaku's tier lists and made the following changes:

Offensive Tier List:

- I gave Arceus-Normal a tier of its own at the top (so basically, all Pokémon not mentioned in the changes have moved down one tier).
- I moved Reshiram and Deoxys-A up a tier.
- I moved Arceus-Fighting down two tiers.
- I moved Gyarados up a tier.

Defensive Tier List:

- I gave Lugia a tier of its own at the top (so basically, all Pokémon not mentioned in the changes have moved down one tier).
- I moved Arceus-Rock and Arceus-Water to the second highest tier.
- I added Ho-Oh, Espeon and Xatu to the second highest tier.
- I moved Arceus-Fighting down a tier.

Since the placement of Arceus-Normal and Lugia to a tier of their own in the Offensive Tier List and the Defensive Tier List respectively would likely be by far the most controversial part of my tier lists, I feel that I should copy and paste some information about these two Pokémon that I have posted elsewhere, in order to provide a solid justification as to why I strongly believe that they deserve to be in a tier of their own in their respectively categories:

Why Arceus-Normal should be the sole Pokémon in Tier 1 on the Offensive Tier List:

Extreme Killer Arceus actually is not only the near-unstoppable sweeper that it is often thought of as, but it is even underrated despite its immense popularity, as evident by the fact that there are many people who still do not consider it to be the absolute best Pokémon in the entire game. Its sweeping potential is a cut above that of every other Arceus Forme, as well as every other Pokémon in the game including Kyogre, due to its ability to take down the vast majority of Pokémon in one hit after just a single turn of set-up, which additionally is incredibly easy to pull off, due to its amazingly high base HP, Defense and Special Defense stats, combined with the fact that unlike a typical sweeper, Extreme Killer Arceus can even afford to increase its already-incredible bulk even more by investing 252 EVs into HP instead of Speed, thanks to the +2 priority that its main attack possesses, allowing it to manage absolutely ridiculous feats such as taking a Life Orb and Calm Mind-boosted Aura Sphere from Mewtwo while Swords Dancing in its face, before proceeding to destroy it with a single ExtremeSpeed. And so it hits harder than most sweepers after just a single easy turn of set up, is bulkier than most sweepers due to both its stats as well as it being able to easily afford to invest EVs into its HP to the detriment of its Speed, and with ExtremeSpeed, it is also faster than any other sweeper despite not needing any Speed EVs at all (unless a naturally faster sweeper happens to use ExtremeSpeed as well of course, but no other Pokémon's ExtremeSpeed comes anywhere close to as strong as Arceus-Normal's, especially after a Swords Dance). And while this already ties into what has already been said (which just serves to show how ridiculously effective a set-up sweeper can be when its main Same Type Attack Bonus move is an incredibly powerful priority attack, especially when combined with insane bulk), Extreme Killer Arceus has absolutely no fear whatsoever of two of the biggest factors that just about every single other sweeper in the game (including the likes of Calm Mind Mewtwo and Flame Charge Reshiram) absolutely dread - the first of which being paralysis, and the second of which being Choice Scarf-holding Pokémon that are faster than the sweeper after it sets up. So this leaves burn as being the most effective status effect for crippling it, but not only do most Will-O-Wisp users have to take a Swords Dance-boosted attack before getting the chance to burn Arceus (due to them having to switch in first while Arceus sets up, and once switched in, if the Will-O-Wisp user is Giratina, it is most likely slower than Arceus and has to survive a powerful Shadow Claw or worse, Shadow Force before it can use Will-O-Wisp, and if it is an Arceus, it would need to take an ExtremeSpeed first unless it is of the Rock, Ghost or Steel type (which is exactly why the three most successful Arceus sets I have used besides Extreme Killer are of exactly those three types)), but Will-O-Wisp only has 75% accuracy as opposed to Thunder Wave's 100% accuracy, and this is not even touching on the possibility of an Extreme Killer Arceus that holds a Lum Berry, meaning that even the likes of fast and bulky Arceus-Rock, Ghost or Steel with Will-O-Wisp may fail as counters to this, in my opinion, unreasonably deadly sweeper.

With the aforementioned unreliability of Will-O-Wisp, combined with how situational and shaky most of Extreme Killer Arceus's other checks are, with Multiscale Lugia needing Stealth Rock off the field as well as itself being at full health at the time Arceus shows up, Choice Scarf Chandelure and Terrakion needing Arceus having been weakened before (and even then, the former requires both the sunlight being strong (and thus the presence of Groudon in the team as well as the absence of Kyogre, the most popular Pokémon in the tier) as well as Overheat hitting, and the latter assumes that Arceus does not simply switch out as Terrakion fires a Close Combat, and Arceus (ironically) forbid the opponent having a Chandelure, especially those that set up with moves like Calm Mind, Flame Charge and/or Substitute), Skarmory requiring Arceus not having Overheat, and Groudon being able to Dragon Tail (which could miss)/Roar Arceus out two times maximum, as well as the fact that any team's Extreme Killer Arceus counter failing to do its job (due to luck, like the aforementioned Will-O-Wisp or Overheat missing) usually automatically means that the rest of the team gets completely swept away, I believe it is worthless to deny that Swords Dance Arceus-Normal is an almost unstoppable sweeper and definitely by far the best Pokémon in the game. And while it is very true that Arceus can very effectively run a myriad of sets besides its Extreme Killer set, it can even be said that oftentimes, it is not worth it to run such Arceus sets simply in respect to the fact that using such Arceus prevents one from using the game's ultimate sweeper, since any given team is only allowed to contain one Arceus. That is, unless one is using an non-Extreme Killer Arceus for the sake of countering Extreme Killer Arceus itself (or possibly another big threat such as Kyogre), which is why all the non-Extreme Killer Arceus sets I use that I consider good serve exactly that purpose.

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Why Lugia should be the sole Pokémon in Tier 1 on the Defensive Tier List:

With its Dream World Ability, Lugia is the fourth best Pokémon in the entire game, right behind Arceus, Kyogre, and Groudon (by far the deadliest sweeper and most versatile Pokémon ever, and the two dominant weather summoners of the tier, respectively. Lugia is below them only because they are the ones which control the entire metagame). Why? Consider the following Pokémon:

Extreme Killer Arceus, Calm Mind Arceus, Swords Dance and/or Rock Polish Groudon, Palkia, Calm Mind Mewtwo, Dragon Dance or Swords Dance Rayquaza, Deoxys-A, Shaymin-S, Swords Dance Garchomp, Swords Dance Blaziken, Soul Dew Latias and Latios.

Those are all immensely powerful offensive threats found in the harsh environment of the Übers metagame, and can easily punch holes in even the most well-built team, if not sweep them entirely. Yet, the simple inclusion of a Multiscale Lugia in a team with Magic Bounce support instantly neutralizes every single one of the aforementioned destructive threats. Suddenly, the incredible threat that is the opponent's Dragon Dance Rayquaza, which would have otherwise completely demolished one's entire team is reduced to nothing more than a paralyzed serpent with all of the stat boosts it attained nullified by a simple Whirlwind, waiting to be easily picked off by a super effective attack later on in the match, while Lugia can easily Recover (well, Roost, now that it has access to that as well, which makes it even better) back to full health, and act as if its little skirmish with Rayquaza never even happened. The opponent's Swords Dance Rock Polish Groudon, which easily sweeps even the most well-prepared teams simply by coming into a Choice Scarf Terrakion locked into Stone Edge? Lugia Toxifies it and Whirlwinds it out without breaking a sweat. And it is also the ultimate and most reliable counter to Extreme Killer Arceus, by far the best set of by far the best Pokémon in the game.

From my innumerable experiences with building DW Ubers teams, I can safely say that there isn't a single team barring the most hyper-offensive one, in which I have not at least considered the use of a Multiscale Lugia, because it is simply just that good of a wall. It almost completely eliminates the need to utilize clever predictions in order to play around or beat the countless threats in the tier that are otherwise almost uncounterable. While most good Übers teams can check at least most of the threats I mentioned above, can anyone honestly say that they can use a single Pokémon (well, two with Espeon/Xatu to keep Stealth Rock off the field) to not only check, but flat out counter each and every one of those threats? I don't think so.

I have rather limited experience with Wifi Ubers compared to DW Ubers, but from what I have read in this thread, it appears that one of Lugia's primary purposes in Wifi Ubers is to waste the opponent's Pokémon's PPs with Pressure, in conjunction with Roost and moves like Light Screen and Reflect. Well, if that's the case, then you can completely forget about that in DW Ubers, because it's no longer necessary. Now the best use of Lugia is not to stall out PPs, but to not only counter the vast majority of the offensive threats that make up the metagame, but also crippling them with either paralysis or Toxic, depending on their Pokémon. Most fast and/or frail Pokémon are best off paralyzed and then blown away with Whirlwind, so that another Pokémon can outrun them and effortlessly finish them off later on in the match (and coincidentally, Ho-Oh is an excellent Pokémon for that purpose). For example, a paralyzed Mewtwo can be easily outrun and destroyed by a Ho-Oh's Life Orb Sun-boosted Sacred Fire, while a paralyzed Rayquaza can be outrun and crushed by just about any dragon. However, Extreme Killer Arceus is much better off poisoned, as not only does its main and strongest attack bypass the Speed drop from paralysis, but it is also so bulky that almost no attacks exist which can take it out in one hit anyway. A poisoned Extreme Killer Arceus is also easily stalled by Multiscale Lugia until it succumbs to the poison. And Pokémon like Groudon and Garchomp, that are immune to Thunder Wave, should also obviously be Toxic stalled.

Another thing I would like to mention is that Lugia is a Pokémon upon which very little, if any Speed EVs are often invested, because people prefer to enhance its bulk instead. But with Multiscale Lugia, the priorities have shifted. Now, Speed is very important in order to allow Lugia to regain its Multiscale with Roost before the opponent's Pokémon attacks it, and in very desperate situations, also to allow Lugia to outrun and paralyze certain threats before it faints. Lugia's bulk, on the other hand, has suddenly become less important, as a Multiscale Lugia at full health will always be bulkier than any Pressure Lugia anyway, regardless of how much it invests into Defense or Special Defense. I personally think that the ideal amount of Speed to invest into Lugia is 204, as that allows it to outrun Jolly Groudon, so that it can Roost before it uses Stone Edge, and this is especially important because Groudon is immune to Thunder Wave (if Groudon uses Rock Polish, just Whirlwind it away). And because Lugia is meant to be a mixed wall, I think the ideal set for Multiscale Lugia is this:

Surya (Lugia) @ Leftovers
Trait: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Def / 204 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Roost
- Thunder Wave
- Toxic
- Whirlwind

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So now, I have given a lot of reasons supporting my placement of Arceus-Normal and Lugia in their respective tiers. If anyone has any questions about some of the other changes I have made to Jibaku's lists, or the placement of any Pokémon in it, then feel free to ask and I'll explain my reasoning for them :)

I think the original idea is far better than creating an offensive-defensive tier list as it is -and always be- subjective. Check the above post for example. Lugia on it's own tier and Scizor on tier 4. This seems more like a tier based on usage rather than an actual logic process behind.


In any case, most offensive pokes in this tier are to be taken into account when building a team and generally ppl that are good in other tiers just look at usage stats to check for the most popular (at a given moment) when building a new team. That's why anti-metagaming is so much fun.

Espeon and Xatu in a defensive tier alongside Groudon and Giratina? Please don't make jokes about this list. I agree with locoghoul about his opinion on Magic Bounce pokemon because they do not deserve a spot on Tier 2.

In fact, I don't even think Espeon deserves a spot in the list. Espeon is way too situational and now everyone can see it coming through team preview. Crap defenses and mediocre coverage sucks. Any decently powerful attack will OHKO Espeon. Lugia will rather have other more reliable partners such as Forretress or Excadrill. There's also Zekrom, Reshiram and Kyurem-W, all can potentially beat Lugia with sheer power.

I disagree with having Lugia and Arceus getting a tier of a their own. Lugia is still forced out pretty easily by Toxic, if you drop Substitute. Lugia's lack of offensive presence means most supporters can come in on Lugia for free such as Forretress coming in on Lugia to spin or set up Spikes. Tentacruel and Excadrill can do the same. All of them takes laughable damage from most of Lugia's attack. I frequently used Lugia and I can say it is a superb wall but not special enough to deserve a separate tier.

Arceus is a dangerous sweeper but it has its fair share of checks [ Giratina, Skarmory, Lugia, Ghost Arceus, Normal Arceus, Groudon, Hippowdon ]. +2 Shadow Claw does not even OHKO bulkier Ghost Arceus variants. Specs Kyogre is just as hard to stop. Latias loses if she comes in on Ice Beam, or gets paralyzed by Thunder. Palkia is 2HKOed by Thunder or Ice Beam and lacks recovery. I can argue that ExtremeKiller lacks initial power because unboosted ExtremeSpeed is pretty weak while Kyogre hits extremely hard from turn 1. Jibaku forgetting Ho-Oh on the defensive list is awful though :(

locoghoul said:

because zomg it walls Kyogre, Lati@s, Kyurem-B, Zekrom,

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locoghoul forgotten Kyurem-B and Zekrom breaks through Shedinja with Terravolt. Shedinja can never wall it.

Also, we don't judge how good a person is in Ubers through ladderboard achievement.

locoghoul said:

The magic bounce poke helping Lugia to keep Multiscale is lol. Decent to good players will have SR on the field.

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Then it appears that most of the people in the top 100 on Pokémon Showdown's Ubers ladder are not "decent to good players" then, since I managed to block Stealth Rock with Espeon in the vast majority of my matches on my way up that ladder (which has the Wifi Clause, by the way, making Espeon significantly easier to predict and play around than in the many other ladders on Pokémon Online that don't have Team Preview).

locoghoul said:

The fact that -according to this "logic" anyways- Lugia needs an extra support poke (a Magic Bounce one in this case), kinda defeats the purpose of it being on the top tier (it's own tier mind you). If this logic is correct then Shedinja with baton pass should be at least on defensive tier 2 because zomg it walls Kyogre, Lati@s, Kyurem-B, Zekrom, Steelceus, Fightceus, Electriceus, Iceceus, Psychiceus and checks Mewtwo "with the help of a Magic Bounce pokemon".

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Excadrill and Swift Swim Pokémon need Sand Stream and Drizzle support respectively to be amazing, yet this does not stop the aforementioned from being considered so top tier in OU that this community has banned them from that metagame. Also, Lugia requiring Magic Bounce support is hardly a big deal when Magic Bounce support is one of the best things any team could have anyway (especially in the Übers tier, where Ferrothorn gets ample opportunities to set up Spikes due to the prevalence of rain, and where Rapid Spin is almost useless due to the existence of Arceus-Ghost and Giratina), due to its myriad of amazing utilities. Do not think of Magic Bounce support as being something that takes up an entire spot on a team just to prevent Stealth Rock from crippling Lugia. Rather, think of ALL the benefits Magic Bounce gives to the ENTIRE team - in my first post in this thread, I have listed nine wonders of Magic Bounce, and I would imagine that just about any team would kill to be able to reap the benefits of at least a few of them.

As for trickroom, everything you have mentioned about Lugia is true, but that's not the point. Yes, people can Rapid Spin, Toxic, or set up entry hazards against Lugia (none of which are too big of a deal as Lugia's trainer can just switch to a Ghost-type Pokémon, Espeon/Xatu, and Espeon/Xatu respectively), but are we not discussing Lugia's usefulness relative to other Pokémon in terms of its defensive abilities? Even though people can do all that stuff due to Lugia's lack offensive presence, it still does not change the fact that Lugia is a cut above every other Pokémon in existence when it comes to being a defensive Pokémon, which is what the entire Defensive Tier List is all about. No other Pokémon - not Giratina, not Ferrothorn, not Eviolite Chansey, not Groudon, or even any Forme of Arceus comes anywhere remotely close to being able to singlehandedly not only counter, but also paralyze/poison and Whirlwind out the sheer number of Pokémon that Lugia can. Giratina can be overpowered through Dragon-type moves. Ferrothorn can do nothing against any Pokémon packing a Fire-type move and also cannot stop bulky sweepers with recovery due to its lack of a pseudo-hazing move. Chansey also cannot pseudo-haze and loses to physical sweepers. Groudon is destroyed by special attacks and doesn't even have reliable recovery. And defensive Arceus Formes lose to various Pokémon depending on their type, and the vast majority of them cannot handle Ho-Oh at all. Lugia, on the other hand, can tank Thunders, Stone Edges, +1 super effective Judgments, +2 Shadow Forces, and manage a large number of absolutely ridiculous defensive feats which no other Pokémon could even dream of achieving, and really only fears Cloyster's Icicle Spear and Teravolt or Turboblaze-enhanced attacks. And if Lugia paralyzes Kyurem-W, it can even use Roost and tank its Choice Specs Ice Beams. Yes, Giratina can Will-o-Wisp things, Ferrothorn can set up entry hazards and unleash a powerful Gyro Ball or Power Whip, Chansey can use Aromatherapy/Heal Bell and pass Wishes, and Groudon and Arceus can be both offensive and defensive at the same time. Many other defensive Pokémon have much greater offensive presence than Lugia, but none of this changes the fact that Lugia rightfully occupies Tier 1 alone on the Defensive Tier List. Also, saying that Reshiram, Zekrom and Kyurem-W can power their way through Lugia doesn't mean much, as I never said that Lugia is an absolutely indestructible wall without any weaknesses. But my point is that the ratio of the Pokémon that Lugia can counter, to those that it cannot, far outclasses any and every other Pokémon in existence. That is why Lugia should be alone at the top of the Defensive Tier List.

Also, Arceus-Normal having "a fair share of checks" does not refute the notion that it is a ridiculous cut above every other offensive threat in the game. Every offensive Pokémon in existence has "a fair share of checks," but what is the difference between Arceus-Normal and just about every other offensive threat in the game? Look at every single Pokémon I have listed in Tier 2 on my Offensive Tier List, and what do you see all of them having in common that Arceus-Normal lacks? The answer is that all it takes to be able to revenge-kill (and thus "checking") any of those Pokémon is to simply send out a faster Pokémon under the condition that it can deal a lot of damage to it (neither Arceus-Ghost nor Rayquaza have an ExtremeSpeed anywhere near as powerful as Arceus-Normal and thus their +2 ExtremeSpeeds miss out on a lot of important KOs that Arceus-Normal can achieve). But no, Arceus-Normal's strongest move has +2 priority, so while I can send out a Choice Scarf Kyogre or Reshiram to revenge-kill my opponent's +6 Darkrai, or send out my Choice Scarf Garchomp to revenge-kill my opponent's +6 Latias or Latios, my revenge-killer needs an extra condition to ensure that it can revenge-kill just a +2 Arceus-Normal, and that is that it either resists ExtremeSpeed, or is naturally bulky enough to survive it. Combine this with the fact that Arceus-Normal only has one weakness, and not counting unreleased Dream World Abilities, the only viable Pokémon in Übers that can do that are Excadrill in the sand and Choice Scarf Terrakion (which is probably as popular as it is in Übers largely because of this exact reason anyway). And you know what else all of the offensive Pokémon in Tier 2 barring Groudon and Arceus-Ground have in common that Arceus-Normal lacks? It is the fact that all of them are largely neutralized simply by getting hit by Thunder Wave. But Arceus-Normal doesn't care about that besides the 25% chance that it gets fully paralyzed and the fact that it can no longer outrun some Brick Break/Earthquake/Shadow Claw targets, which isn't that bad thanks to its insane bulk for a sweeper anyway.

Revenge-killing, and paralysis. These are two pretty much universal methods of checking just about every sweeper in existence. It is pretty much unheard of to see a sweeper still continuing to be a threat even though I just paralyzed it, or sent out a faster Pokémon that can KO it. When people discuss the various checks that certain sweepers such as Calm Mind Mewtwo and Dragon Dance Rayquaza have, do you ever see them mentioning "Thunder Wave" as a check? You don't, and why? Because it is obvious that a simple Thunder Wave neutralizes them. This is so obvious that people don't even bother to mention it, as they take for granted that pretty much every set-up sweeper can be simply neutralized by this move, just as a testament to how universal such a method of dealing with a sweeper is. Even if your team does not have a reliable switch-in to a certain offensive threat, you can still sometimes beat it by paralyzing or revenge-killing it. But thanks to the fact that its main, Same Type Attack Bonus attack is ExtremeSpeed of all moves the two aforementioned universal methods of checking a sweeper do not work against Arceus-Normal, or in the case of revenge-killing, anywhere near as well as it should. And this is why people have to rely on using physically bulky pseudo-hazers like Skarmory and Lugia, and users of the unreliable Will-O-Wisp to counter it. And the fact that Arceus-Normal's sheer presence in the metagame has centralized and warped it in such a way that all successful teams need either a Choice Scarf Terrakion, a Will-o-Wisp user, and/or a physically bulky pseudo-hazer just goes to show that it is by far the greatest offensive threat.

And finally, I should point out that a Pokémon lacking initial power means nothing when it is so bulky and its weakness is so few that the single turn it takes to set up a Swords Dance and gain that firepower is pretty much guaranteed anyway.

Umm I can kind of see where you're coming from with Lugia to not care enough to argue but I have to disagree with ExtremeKiller.

First off, Paralysis is rarely a reliable method to check something unless the thing it tries to set up on has a way of inducing it, which can even then be blocked by a Substitute. If you have to switch to something to induce paralysis, oftentimes you are a) Going to lose that paralysis inducer as they continue to set up more boosts b) then send in a revenge killer who probably should have been sent in in the first place in place of your paralysis inducer. While I agree it basically stops set up sweepers, it usually ensures that sweeper will get at least one kill and is never my go-to method of stopping a sweeper.

That being said, I do disagree with having Normal Arceus in its own tier. While it is an extremely huge threat, I do not deny this, it has counters/checks that everyone is sure to carry these days. While, yes, Normal Arceus is free to sweep once these are removed, this is true for every single set up sweeper "It can sweep once its checks are removed" is not a valid argument for something being an amazing sweeper. Unless of course its checks are removed extremely easily; so, in other words, when Shadow Tag Chandelure comes out. That's besides the point though. To be honest, I find Ghost Arceus just as threatening as ExtremeKiller. Extremekiller is one of those things that will 100% sweep you if you don't have an answer, but isn't Kyogre? Isn't DD Rayquaza?

I think I'm going to try to tackle that giant wall of text :P, HELP ME ARCEUS?

Then it appears that most of the people in the top 100 on Pokémon Showdown's Ubers ladder are not "decent to good players" then, since I managed to block Stealth Rock with Espeon in the vast majority of my matches on my way up that ladder (which has the Wifi Clause, by the way, making Espeon significantly easier to predict and play around than in the many other ladders on Pokémon Online that don't have Team Preview).

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Firstly, Showdown's Uber ladder is a lot like PO's ladder, its not exactly "great". As trickroom said that rarely judges people unless they're abusing research week or that attempt to revamp the ubers ladder which ironically failed (idk it just died).

Lugia, on the other hand, can tank Thunders, Stone Edges, +1 super effective Judgments, +2 Shadow Forces, and manage a large number of absolutely ridiculous defensive feats which no other Pokémon could even dream of achieving, and really only fears Cloyster's Icicle Spear and Teravolt or Turboblaze-enhanced attacks. And if Lugia paralyzes Kyurem-W, it can even use Roost and tank its Choice Specs Ice Beams.

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Actually this is a really wierd arguement, while Lugia can stomach most of these moves, its probably going to lose Multiscale upon switching into one, then take double the damage from next move due to scale being broken. If these are really all the moves your speaking of then Lugia should be overwhelmed by the pressure and be either maimed, fainted, or too exhausted to pull of another move forcing it to rest. (hang on a sec I'm getting mah calcs :P).

To give a better idea of the idea above take for example a Lugia switching into the standard Scarf Kyogre Water Spout: (37.01 - 43.99%).

This may sound pitiful at first but the turn after... (73.79 - 87.25%), it will have a high chance to die this turn, so basically IT CANNOT SWITCH INTO EVERY MOVE :P. The calcs are similar with Thunder although the same thing basically happens, it can't switch in to it. Thunder will 2HKO after Multiscale is broken, although this is really unimportant. Lugia will be left with 25% HPish after the second thunder which means Lugia will be forced to either, Whirlwind or Paralyze Kyogre to avoid getting killed by it. Basically Lugia's inability to switch-in on most pokemon really render it hard to completely reap the benefits out of Multiscale.

Also this happens with almost every other poke too take Arceus Ghost here at +0 judging Lugia with Multiscale active: (30.76 - 36.53%)

Now it outspeeds and can hit it for massive damage right?: (61.05 - 72.59%)

Oh and wall breakers still break Lugia through Multiscale, for example... Specs Kyogre Water Spout vs your Lugia (55.52 - 65.62%). Yeah... its going to need help to wall the whole meta lol. Also chance are these calcs won't even matter due to Stealth Rock being up, speaking of which...

Excadrill and Swift Swim Pokémon need Sand Stream and Drizzle support respectively to be amazing, yet this does not stop the aforementioned from being considered so top tier in OU that this community has banned them from that metagame. Also, Lugia requiring Magic Bounce support is hardly a big deal when Magic Bounce support is one of the best things any team could have anyway (especially in the Übers tier, where Ferrothorn gets ample opportunities to set up Spikes due to the prevalence of rain, and where Rapid Spin is almost useless due to the existence of Arceus-Ghost and Giratina), due to its myriad of amazing utilities. Do not think of Magic Bounce support as being something that takes up an entire spot on a team just to prevent Stealth Rock from crippling Lugia. Rather, think of ALL the benefits Magic Bounce gives to the ENTIRE team - in my first post in this thread, I have listed nine wonders of Magic Bounce, and I would imagine that just about any team would kill to be able to reap the benefits of at least a few of them.

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Before thinking of all the benefits Magic Bounce gives lets think of all the negative things it brings also. Lets see, your forced to use a Pokemon who is basically 2HKOed-OHKOed by the whole metagame unless there are screens up or your going against something incredible weak (referring to Xatu vs Ferro here, Espeon actually gets 2HKOed by Ferro Gyro ball). Your also forced to go mad with prediction if your using Espeon, its lessened with Xatu a little bit against Groudon and Ferro though. Regardless of what mon your using your either busting your brain trying to figure out how to predict whether a Dialga, Tyranitar, Froslass, Support Arceus, or Deoxys-a / n / s is going to use an offensive move or set up hazards. If you predict wrongly, you lose your magic bounce user. If you predict right, Tyranitar still check mates you with Pursuit, Deo-a / n / s can still smack you with a Shadow Ball, Dialga can end you with a Draco Meteor or Fire Blast, while Support Arceus can Judge you and you probably will die unless you manage to set up a screen before they move. If you switch out they can use Stealth Rocks. Think I'm giving the enemy a bit too much credit for prediction skills? I'm giving you enough credit for predicting right in the first place (tl;dr the prediction arguement works both ways, and we aren't even discussing the usefulness of mons with support really, lets put that to the side). I really don't think they deserve to be even tiered on to this list really, their true inferior offensive presence makes it look like they would really only deserve a slot on a support list (I really think we should make one of these :P). Also if we are going to attach Magic Bounce to Lugia what if we were to become magical prediction monsters (aka trickroom 9.9) and predict every move the opponent uses but use oh Giratina-a instead! Great now we have something that can wall the whole meta if it has dual screen support! Yeah I really don't think this list should factor THAT MUCH support at ALL. Because in that case, infiltrator Ninjask and Brick Break Gyrados would be OP and not tier 1 but tier -1 (if that makes any sense at all).

So in the end, I think we should all assume that tier one of these mons are really with little support to make official tiering (like little as in enough to become viable). Then everything else is listed as based on how much support it needs to reach the same level of usefulness that the tier 1 pokes can provide, (ex: Gastro needs the most support out of all mons to be viable which is why its so low) Lugia is not getting its own tier since it can't wall the whole meta, and like other walls, it can get broken by wall breakers, and hands down the ubers ladder cannot provide matches more epic then that of one against the fearsome trickroom. Also gyrados should really be #1, Taunt + DD is epic I tell you, sets up infront of so many stall mons..<=That is supposed to be invisible I don't get how people use that cross slash thing

Also Arceus-Ground needs to move up a tier, as Jibaku said, its offensive SD set can really lay havoc on enemy sun teams, and it doesn't need that much support at all.

If I sounded mean at all in this post I apologize :(.

ok saying ek arceus deserves its own tier is only reasonable relative to putting lugia in its own tier

lugia is ok but wtf, it doesn't really DO anything besides phaze (unless you're using an offensive set, but then it's not really for defensive tier so..)

ek arceus is good, but own tier good? not really. ek arceus that don't run 252+ spd are checked by terrakion / arceus - ghost / arceus steel / skarmory / groudon / scarf pokemon that resists espeed

probably tier 1 should be

(normal / ghost / ground / dragon) arceus / mewtwo / kyogre / groudon / palkia / zekrom / kyurem-w / darkrai / ho-oh / dialga / rayquaza (i don't count latias because i view it as more of a defensive threat)

The thing is defensive Pokemon are a lot different than offensive Pokemon in terms of support. A lot of sweepers simply need a few checks weakened/removed to wreak havok. For some sweepers this is easily accomplished due to the amount/nature of their checks/counters. Some Pokemon don't really have many checks (say ExtremeKiller if you want, though it does in my opinion; this is a hypothetical so don't attack the example). On the other hand, some Pokemon's checks can be easily crippled. Say something like DD Rayquaza + Thunder Wave Kyogre when someone is relying on Scarf Palkia. Past this, some Pokemon like Mewtwo can just tear massive holes in teams with little-to-no support thanks to their movepool/stats/whatever.

Now let's look at defensive Pokemon. They need support to be at their peak effectiveness. No one ever makes a hyper offensive team then throws Giratina on it because it can wall some things, do they? No, that would be incredibly ineffective and Dragon Tail isn't doing anything if they don't have multiple hazards down. None of your frail sweepers are going to care if something is burned, really. There are almost always offense alternatives for checking something. People do, however, make defensive cores with the goal of opening up sweeps for a certain Pokemon. People also make full stall teams that work as a cohesive unit (Spinner, walls of some sort, spinblocker, etc, etc). Pokemon like Lugia can't really just be thrown into any team and be effective. They don't necesarily need to have teams made around them to work, but they need support. There is no wall that can avoid a 2HKO from probably even half the tier, but there are so many Pokemon that can claim to 2HKO the entire tier save for a select few Pokemon.

I'm not defending or refuting Lugia's position in its own tier, but walls can't really be stand-alone walls, and support is basically essential to their function. I do agree that assuming Magic Bounce support is a bit naive, and quite unreliable, however.

About the comment by Mr.Lol - I feel that you are being overly harsh and undersetimating Lugia's defensive capabilities. The example about being unable to wall Kyogre is not a very good one. The reason for this is Kyogre has rain, a choice scarf and a 150 base power move. How many defensive pokemon can check Kyogre anyway? That example is ignoring the fact that Kyogre is extremely powerful. If the tier list was based on the ability to wall Kyogre, you would have to match every pokemon in the current tier one to judge their rating. It would be like Groudon is unable to wall Kyogre. Lugia is still able to check it if stealth rock is not up.
What makes Lugia so good is that its bulk allows it to survive attacks even at 75% health. It has reliable recovery and a phazing move and Multiscale allows it to immediately stop a sweep. Lugia deserves its own tier because it is by far the best wall overall. Just compare it to the other walls in tier one and count the number of things that Lugia can wall that the other pokemon cannot.
Okay, maybe if Lugia has to switch in to an attack it may fail to do its job. But what if the situation is the opposite where Lugia is at full health and the opposing team is struggling to break through it? Most wall have the problem of being forced out by a offensive pokemon they cannot handle. How does Lugia fare? After getting to full health and phazing, it is ready to take on the next threat and paralyze/poison the target.
Also, saying that the ladder sucks is a bad argument because I have heard that the PO ladder sucks(smogon is more competitive as I have heard) and now you are saying that the PS ladder is not good either? By saying this, you are actually underestimating the player's skill level in the top 50. Note that the top 100 dont run gimmick teams with charizard.
+1 judgment means that Lugia switched in on calm mind, +2 shadow force means that Lugia switches in swords dance. Who in their right mind would use a weak unboosted judgment/shadow force before setting up.

EDIT: Alright, I will also admit that the ladder isnt very good. Maybe not top 100 but the top 20 are where the good players are with over 1550 points(atleast that was before the BW2's ladder reset on PO). And, yeah getting top 100 isnt a challenge - I just make a new account and get to top 100 while merely testing teams. Hazards support isnt too big a deal as every team in ubers use pokemon to provide Stealth Rock/Spikes whether or not they would have Lugia in it or not. Lugia was never meant to wall Kyogre in the first place. His team had a Palkia in it.

Pokémon Trainer R said:

Then it appears that most of the people in the top 100 on Pokémon Showdown's Ubers ladder are not "decent to good players" then, since I managed to block Stealth Rock with Espeon in the vast majority of my matches on my way up that ladder (which has the Wifi Clause, by the way, making Espeon significantly easier to predict and play around than in the many other ladders on Pokémon Online that don't have Team Preview).

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- Yes, they are not good players. Surprised?
- To become leaderboard you don't have to beat every top 100 player out there, just win matches.
- Once again, if Espeon (lol) is so good at blocking SR (or if you are so pro at prediction), why don't you use Shedinja? It walls Kyogre, one of the top offensive pokes on your list, just to point out its "usefulness".

About the comment by Mr.Lol - I feel that you are being overly harsh and undersetimating Lugia's defensive capabilities. The example about being unable to wall Kyogre is not a very good one. The reason for this is Kyogre has rain, a choice scarf and a 150 base power move. How many defensive pokemon can check Kyogre anyway? That example is ignoring the fact that Kyogre is extremely powerful. If the tier list was based on the ability to wall Kyogre, you would have to match every pokemon in the current tier one to judge their rating. It would be like Groudon is unable to wall Kyogre. Lugia is still able to check it if stealth rock is not up.
What makes Lugia so good is that its bulk allows it to survive attacks even at 75% health. It has reliable recovery and a phazing move and Multiscale allows it to immediately stop a sweep. Lugia deserves its own tier because it is by far the best wall overall. Just compare it to the other walls in tier one and count the number of things that Lugia can wall that the other pokemon cannot.
Okay, maybe if Lugia has to switch in to an attack it may fail to do its job. But what if the situation is the opposite where Lugia is at full health and the opposing team is struggling to break through it? Most wall have the problem of being forced out by a offensive pokemon they cannot handle. How does Lugia fare? After getting to full health and phazing, it is ready to take on the next threat and paralyze/poison the target.
Also, saying that the ladder sucks is a bad argument because I have heard that the PO ladder sucks(smogon is more competitive as I have heard) and now you are saying that the PS ladder is not good either? By saying this, you are actually underestimating the player's skill level in the top 50. Note that the top 100 dont run gimmick teams with charizard.
+1 judgment means that Lugia switched in on calm mind, +2 shadow force means that Lugia switches in swords dance. Who in their right mind would use a weak unboosted judgment/shadow force before setting up.

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I'm aware of Lugia's walling capabilities, I'm only trying to dispell the illusion Trainer R is making of it looking invincible -_-. The post above wasn't trying to make Lugia suck, I'm trying to make it notable that like the rest of all walls its possible to break it with a wall breaker. Additionally, the fact it gets broken by the #1 poke (most common) in the ubers meta has to be enough to drop it a rank to where the others dwell IMO. Yes I know Lugia has its perks like being whats probably the only reliable Rayquaza counter but its by no means invincible, and due to the fact it has its weaknesses like other walls it should definetly remain in top tier (not drop to 3 or something but remain in rank with gira-a and friends). Besides it needs hazard and magic bounce support to actually maintain an offensive presence, am I the only one who found that to be a little hard to supply sometimes? (requires two teamslots) There's a reason why I dropped that last foot note behind :P.

Also, saying that the ladder sucks is a bad argument because I have heard that the PO ladder sucks(smogon is more competitive as I have heard) and now you are saying that the PS ladder is not good either? By saying this, you are actually underestimating the player's skill level in the top 50. Note that the top 100 dont run gimmick teams with charizard.

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Getting to top 100 is a feat accomplish able in a day by many :P. It has merit but not THAT much. I will agree that both ladders aren't in tip top shape wouldn't you (I'm using the smogon OU as an idea of a good ladder if your asking what a good one is)? Look at locoghoul's comment for more information.

EDIT: @ Firecape, almost all stall teams are cohesive units -__-, thats whats making it so difficult to find right tiers really IMO.

Anikrahman1995 said:

Also, saying that the ladder sucks is a bad argument because I have heard that the PO ladder sucks(smogon is more competitive as I have heard) and now you are saying that the PS ladder is not good either? By saying this, you are actually underestimating the player's skill level in the top 50. Note that the top 100 dont run gimmick teams with charizard.

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Actually I would say PO is more competitive than PS right now from my personal experience. Yes, you may fight some teams with Pikachu and Charizard but the amount of good players on PO >> amount of good players on PS. You can disagree with me but the prediction and strat I've found on top 50 players on PO server are better than those of top 50 in PS or old Smogon PO server.

Not only that, but diversity and creativity is also greater, the Smogon server on PO was almost the same team archetype 95% of my time laddering there. PO players play a lot of sand teams, shellpass teams, some sun teams in addition of the classic balanced/stallish rain teams that you see all the time. In BW1, I only found 1 other guy playing a sun team besides me and maybe 2 sand teams (smogon server).

Not to bash anyone but I think the overused "smogon is better" argument is just prejudice and reminiscent of the old pre-platinum GenIV era when Smogon's "known players" actually used to play regularly.

I might be wrong but I feel like there is a lot of theorymoning lately (like this thread or tier lists) and not actual testing.

See my edit to my last post to hear my opninion. Also I dont actually get how the smogon ladders are more competitive. Most of the uber players are on the PO server because of mainly one reason: there are more players there and we dont have to wait a few minutes to find a battle unlike on the old smogon server. A lot of people who are a part of the smogon community play ubers on the PO server. I am also agreeing that the PO server is a lot more diverse than the old smogon server. It should be noted that just because smogon is what made pokemon online possible does not mean that it is better. Even on PO the decent players still use smogon's analysis to build ther team.
BTW I myself would play on Pokemon Showdown if not due to frequent disconnection and lag.

Now im beginning to hate myself for shifting the topic, I agree with locoghoul's post for the main part, really POs server is better then PS imo, but in the end both aaren't really "great" due to how easily you can ladder there.

Like I said, I'm aware of Lugia's walling potential (if you haven't gotten it yet this means I know its good at what it does), but all I'm saying is its not good enough for its own tier. Its physical walling capabilities are great (again best quaza check in the game), but due to its fair share of weaknesses (still wall breakable as shown with ogre) and reliance on magic bounce support (I get hazards are common on near all teams but sometimes I hate wasting that slot on forry or ferro or skarm) and spin blocker support (think about the slots left now 1-2 for hazards, 1 for bounce, 1 for spin blocking, 1 slot for lugia, really thats a lot of slots taken up, you only have 2-1 free-be's) neuter its walling prowess to the point where it can be compared to other walls and it is no longer has its top tier.

Yes, people can Rapid Spin, Toxic, or set up entry hazards against Lugia (none of which are too big of a deal as Lugia's trainer can just switch to a Ghost-type Pokémon, Espeon/Xatu, and Espeon/Xatu respectively),

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You switch out and give the opponent a free turn. If it is Forretress or Tentacruel, they can set up some Spikes as you switch out to your Ghost. If it is Espeon, they can just 2HKO Espeon with Gyro Ball or Scald in the rain. Giving 2 Support pokemon to Lugia is a bit too much. The Tier1 fits Lugia good enough already.

Let's compare it with Groudon and Giratina. Lugia has more bulk with Multiscale and without a Dragon-type weakness compared to Giratina. However, Groudon brings the sunlight giving you weather control. This allows Groudon to fit in on way more teams and act better as a supporter. Lugia can phaze and wall but Groudon requires little support to function well. Setting up Stealth Rock on its own is also something for Groudon. Next, Groudon can OHKO all the Rapid Spin users with the appropriate moves. Not saying Groudon is better than Lugia but Lugia is not the outclassing other walls in TIER 1.

I am not sure if Ferrothorn should be 1st in TIER 1 but it does have Spikes and Leech Seed together with a wonderful typing. Lugia has even more bulk but wait, Ferrothorn is immune to Poison and has a lot more resistances, does not mind paralysis and STAB Gyro Ball hits decently hard. Ferrothorn can also 2HKO Kyogre directly with Power Whip with a defensive set. Ferrothorn can set up Spikes on its own and the tier also counts providing support as a factor. I am sure Spikes > phazing is better as a utility move because there are very few good Spikes user in Ubers.

And if Lugia paralyzes Kyurem-W, it can even use Roost and tank its Choice Specs Ice Beams.

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You can't because Modest Choice Specs Ice Beam still outdamages Roost. This is assuming Multiscale, so if you are using Pressure, Lugia has a better chance of stalling it out.

All those pokemon you mentioned about Lugia walling to death can be a bit exaggerating. What if things like Latios decides to Dragon Pulse you instead of setting up Calm Mind. Next turn, Latios can Thunder you for massive damage. This is all assuming Stealth Rock is not up. Magic Bounce pokemon are generally a waste of teamslot and they are not that reliable especially Espeon. Strangely the share the same exact weaknesses with Lugia in Xatu's case.

<&Jibaku> because Lugia doesnt support the team much
<&Jibaku> it's a giant wall that phazes
<&Jibaku> compared to
<&Jibaku> Giratina spinblocking
<@firecape> lol i've used
<&Jibaku> and ferrothorn throwing spikes

I don't know why you are still arguing about this Pokemon Trainer R because Lugia does not deserve its own tier list. Spikes > Whirlwind in general because of its great utility. Ferrothorn and Groudon also fit in better on most teams as they require less team support, the usage stats mean little but it still counts as a prove they do fit better onto teams.

Lugia, on the other hand, can tank Thunders, Stone Edges, +1 super effective Judgments, +2 Shadow Forces, and manage a large number of absolutely ridiculous defensive feats which no other Pokémon could even dream of achieving

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We agreed that Lugia is a hulking wall but it isn't impenetrable. Also, sheer bulk might not make it special anyway because it gives a lot less support compare to Groudon, Giratina and Ferrothorn give to the team.

As for comparing Giratina and Lugia,

-Giratina has more physical bulk, more resistances but more weaknesses, Will-O-Wisp, STAB Dragon Tail, and most importantly it spinblocks.
-Lugia is still bulkier with Multiscale but let's not forget Multiscale is not always active the entire game. Lacking a Dragon weakness is huge but for that Lugia lacks a lot of useful resistances. Lugia has Dragon Tail too and you can argue Whirlwind is just as good. However, Giratina can immediately deal decent damage to things like Latias switching into to KO you. Not really a big advantage but it still counts.
-Spinblocking is huge in the Ubers metagame. Giratina does not even need to switch out in the face of Excadrill, Tentacruel, Kabutops and maybe Forretress some of the time. Lugia has to switch out and risk giving the opponent some extra layers or set up in Kabutops's case. You can Thunder Wave Kabutops but Stone Edge will hurt you and you still lose your Spikes if it Rapid Spins.
-The TIER 1 list is also based on how much support a pokemon gives to the team. In this case, Giratina has both bulk and SpinBlocking > Lugia's sheer bulk. Lugia can stop more Dragon-type sweepers but Giratina also has its fair share of advantages.
Giratina walls Blaziken, Victini, Kabutops, SD Rock Arceus, SD Ground Arceus and SD Steel Arceus. The former three will beat Lugia because they outspeed you(assuming your Lugia). Giratina burns Rock, Ground and Steel Arceus easily. All of those Arceus forms outspeed Lugia so you cannot counter them. Steel Arceus is also immune to Toxic.

For Arceus's case, firecape and Mr.Lol pretty much said what I wanted. I find Rayquaza to be deadlier than Arceus in some cases because Rayquaza can run so many sets. From Mixed to Dragon Dancer but Arceus is almost always using Swords Dance. Not saying Rayquaza is better but Arceus is not special enough to merit a separate tier on its own.

I could argue Rayquaza has way more resistances allowing it to switch in on Kyogre's Scarf Surf and notch up a Dragon Dance. Ask Arceus to do that. Air Lock does matter especially when it prevents weather abusers from revenge killing Rayquaza. Kabutops, Omastar can revenge Arceus. Yes, Arceus only has one weakness but it has no resistances! Ghost immunity isn't much of a big deal because the only common user is Giratina-O and Ghost Arceus who commonly carries Focus Blast.

Mr.Lol said:

Like I said, I'm aware of Lugia's walling potential (if you haven't gotten it yet this means I know its good at what it does), but all I'm saying is its not good enough for its own tier. Its physical walling capabilities are great (again best quaza check in the game), but due to its fair share of weaknesses (still wall breakable as shown with ogre)

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This is also very true. Lugia does have its fair share of weaknesses. You mentioned Kyogre is not supposed to be walled by Lugia. Not walling the most common and deadliest pokemon in Ubers shows Lugia isn't invincible. Keep in mind, sheer bulk isn't everything. Walling more things than say Ferrothorn does not make you a better supporter.

Revenge-killing, and paralysis. These are two pretty much universal methods of checking just about every sweeper in existence. It is pretty much unheard of to see a sweeper still continuing to be a threat even though I just paralyzed it, or sent out a faster Pokémon that can KO it.

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Ever heard of opposing Arceus forms? Paralysis is rarely used in Ubers to check things because you would rather KO them straight. Give me a few examples. Thunder Wave is not a common move on Ferrothorn at all. Dialga rarely uses it and only ParaDancer Groudon loves using it.

You just paralysed a Ghost Arceus, but wait you lack the power to overpower it! Tyranitar's Crunch will not even OHKO a physically defensive Ghost Arceus but a +1 Focus Blast will end your game. In fact, Calm Mind Ghost Arceus has very few counters in existence, only Blissey and Chansey can claim to wall it completely. Ho-Oh gets nailed by Stealth Rock so it is not counted, +1 Judgment does a fair amount of damage too. A Calm Minded but paralyzed Ghost Arceus is still surprisingly hard to kill. Any Scarf user cannot OHKO a Calm Minded Ghost Arceus, Kyogre is the closest one. Even if you paralyze it the next turn after it Calm Minds, you can go to your sweeper which is ? to take out Ghost Arceus. The closest one is CB Kyurem-B's Outrage which still does not come close to OHKOing Bold Ghost Arceus. +1 Focus Blast will end Kyurem-B's life especially after Stealth Rock. Don't give excuses you have Xatu because Arceus scares the hell out of it and it blocks Rapid Spin too.

And this is why people have to rely on using physically bulky pseudo-hazers like Skarmory and Lugia, and users of the unreliable Will-O-Wisp to counter it. And the fact that Arceus-Normal's sheer presence in the metagame has centralized and warped it in such a way that all successful teams need either a Choice Scarf Terrakion, a Will-o-Wisp user, and/or a physically bulky pseudo-hazer just goes to show that it is by far the greatest offensive threat.

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OK so? Specs Kyogre alone forces you to either use Latias or Palkia to counter it. Grass Arceus works too. Latias, Palkia and Grass Arceus are useful pokemon in general but their main duty is to stop Kyogre most of the time. The threat of Kyogre made people used shit like Parasect and Quagsire to counter it. Gastrodon is a fine and Ludicolo does have some uses. Oh yeah Kyogre can set up too! If your Latias lacks Thunder or Roar, and met Calm Mind Kyogre with Ice Beam you lose. Palkia loses to Calm Mind Kyogre and those with Rest Talk. This turns a counter into set up bait in Palkia's case unless you land a critical hit.

Anikrahman said:

Lugia deserves its own tier because it is by far the best wall overall. Just compare it to the other walls in tier one and count the number of things that Lugia can wall that the other pokemon cannot.

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Again we do not count the number of things it wall but how supportive it is to the team without relying too much on teammates. Most defensive threats can phaze and all are bulky. Lugia is a bit bulkier with Multiscale but don't count on it all the time and Lugia does not do much else besides phazing, status and walling. Others like Groudon have weather support and Stealth Rock.

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