(Quality Control) Tornadus (Revamp)

[lucariojr]

taken over from sprocket, i'll have to read over it and move stuff around later :)



Like a boss

[Overview]

Tornadus's Incarnate form appears at first glance to be outclassed by his Therian form, as Tornadus-Therian has better bulk and faster speed. However, Tornadus-Incarnate has access to the incredibly useful Prankster ability, as well as better Attack and Special Attack stats. Even with less speed than his Therian form, Incarnate form still has a blistering fast 111 base speed and can outspeed most of the metagame. Access to an incredibly powerful STAB Acrobatics allows Tornadus to deal major damage to any Pokemon that don't resist.

Tornadus didn't get much love after the VGC11 season was over. Intimidate's popularity took off, Tyranitar and Metagross were (and still are) everywhere, and because of its one-dimensional coverage which consisted of Acrobatics and... Acrobatics, a lot of teams could easily handle Tornadus without going out of their way. However, with the release of its Dream World ability, Defiant, and the addition of Superpower to its movepool courtesy of BW2, Tornadus found its way into more teams. While it still has issues with its old foes, Tornadus-Incarnate remains as a great pick to offset the influx of Intimidate spam goodstuffs or just Fighting-types in general.

[SET]
name: Defiant Acrobat
move 1: Acrobatics
move 2: Superpower / U-Turn
move 3: Taunt / Tailwind / Substitute
move 4: Protect
item: Flying Gem
ability: Defiant
nature: Jolly
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd

[SET COMMENTS]

-Flying Gem Acrobatics for high damage, OHKOing common Pokemon such as Latios, Chandelure, Hitmontop.
-Superpower deals high damage, OHKOing some of Tornadus's former counters such as Tyranitar, Bisharp and severely damaging many more, though each use weakens Tornadus's Attack and Defense stats.
-Tailwind doubles the speed of your team for three turns
-Taunt shuts down Pokemon that rely on support moves, such as Amoonguss, Ferrothorn, and Trick Room users.


Behold the majesty of Defiant Tornadus. This set boasts a whopping 165 base power STAB move, utility with Taunt and Tailwind, and of course the very real possibility that Tornadus will receive an Attack boost without having to do anything thanks to the popularity of Intimidate.

Superpower picks up Acrobatics’ slack, nailing troublesome Pokemon such as Tyranitar, Heatran, and Bisharp, though it is interesting to note that a Flying Gem boosted Acrobatics hits Pokemon such as 252 HP Rotom-W just as hard as a neutral Superpower. If the Attack and Defense drop seems too risky, U-turn is perhaps a safer option. U-turn still hurts Tyranitar, softening it up for a more capable teammate to take care of it and keeps Tornadus safe in the back until the coast is clear and it can continue to fire off Acrobatics.

Taunt is a mainstay from its Prankster set from 2011, especially with all the Cresselia running around throwing around annoying moves such as Swagger and Thunder Wave, not to mention being a good way to halt Trick Room setup with a little help from a Fake Out user. Tailwind is another move you may recognize, boosting Tornadus and its teammates' speed, allowing you to go toe-to-toe with Swift Swim, Sand Rush or Choice Scarf Pokemon, if only for 3 turns. Tailwind is still and always will be a risky play for Tornadus as long as Trick Room and Thunder Wave remain popular however, so as always use it in moderation. Substitute is slightly less useful without Prankster backing it, but seeing how Tornadus outspeeds all of its threats bar Choice Scarf users and the surprisingly scarce max Speed Thundurus-I, Substitute remains as a great move that can block troublesome Will-O-Wisps, Sucker Punches, and bait Draco Meteors. Protect is a staple for Defiant Tornadus because the most common Intimidate Pokemon (Hitmontop and Scrafty) also carry Fake Out, which can leave Tornadus wide open and vulnerable to Rock Slides or Thunderbolts.

[TEAM OPTIONS AND ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

A Jolly nature and max speed allows Tornadus to outspeed many common threats, notably Latios, Terrakion, and Garchomp. This makes it easy for Tornadus to fire a Flying Gem boosted Acrobatics without having to worry about getting hit first. Slightly bulkier Tornadus could be an option, but dropping even one speed point or too much Attack power means you speed tie with Latios or miss out of OHKOing the very same Latios.

This Tornadus functions best as a no-frills physical attacker, and appreciates support from his partners to deal with bulkier Pokemon that can withstand Acrobatics. Terrakion can use Rock Slide, Close Combat, and Earthquake to take care of many Rock, Electric, and Steel-types that give Tornadus trouble. Slower partners such as Tyranitar and Metagross appreciate Tailwind support and can provide chip damage via Sand Stream and Bullet Punch. Cresselia is an excellent partner for using Helping Hand and providing chip damage and speed control with Icy Wind, as well as having access to Trick Room to reverse an opponent's Trick Room, or perhaps using it to outspeed your opponent should the situation require it.

[SET]
name: Prankster Acrobat
move 1: Acrobatics
move 2: Tailwind / Superpower
move 3: Tailwind / Taunt / Substiute
move 4: Protect / Substitute
item: Flying Gem
ability: Prankster
nature: Jolly
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd

[SET COMMENTS]

-Flying Gem Acrobatics for high damage, OHKOing common Pokemon such as Latios, Chandelure, Hitmontop.
-Tailwind doubles the speed of your team for three turns
-Superpower deals high damage, OHKOing some of Tornadus's former counters such as Tyranitar, Bisharp and severely damaging many more, though each use weakens Tornadus's Attack and Defense stats.
-Taunt shuts down Pokemon that rely on support moves, such as Amoonguss, Ferrothorn, and Trick Room users.


The new Defiant Tornadus may be more popular than the old Prankster Tornadus, but Prankster is by no means outclassed. In fact, against teams without Intimidate, Prankster Tornadus is arguably more useful. Priority Tailwind is useful for turning the tables on Swift Swim or Choice Scarf Pokemon and of course turning the lumbering Tyranitar into a speed demon. Priority Taunt is also a great move to have in the unfortunate event that Trick Room is set up and Amoonguss is threatening to Spore your entire team and of course it shuts down most Cresselia provided they don’t have Ice Beam and Special Attack investment.
Substitute can be a makeshift Protect because of priority and has the potential to linger for more than one turn should the opponent not attack Tornadus and acts as a nice buffer against status move such as Thunder Wave and Spore. However, Substitute can’t last against more than one attack most of the time and spread moves such as Rock Slide allow the opponent to break the Substitute without having to predict. In such cases, Protect is the superior and safer option.
Acrobatics is here for obvious reasons and Superpower can round out its coverage. An offensive Prankster (pun intended) is certainly viable, though it would be best to make use of Tailwind in this case.

[TEAM OPTIONS AND ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

Similar to the Defiant set, Tornadus works best with a Jolly max Speed and Attack spread. Unlike the Defiant set however, Prankster Tornadus can viably use a slightly different Adamant spread because of Tailwind. However, it requires a massive amount of investment to survive heavy hits such as Scarf Landorus-T’s Stone Edge or Draco Meteors, so if you drop Jolly for Adamant, a 252 Attack and Speed spread would probably be best.

Tornadus pairs especially well with Fake Out users such as Hitmontop and Scrafty to help set up Tailwind. Sweepers that appreciate Tailwind support such as Zapdos, Thundurus, Tyranitar, and Metagross also pair well with Tornadus. Terrakion can use Rock Slide, Close Combat, and Earthquake to take care of many Rock, Electric, and Steel-types that give Tornadus trouble.


[SET]
name: Rain Dance Support
move 1: Rain Dance
move 2: Hurricane
move 3: Taunt / Tailwind
move 4: Protect / Substitute
item: Charti Berry / Yache Berry / Focus Sash
ability: Prankster
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spd

[SET COMMENTS]

-Rain dance is for setting Rain without the use of Politoed, or re-setting Rain should Politoed lose the weather wars. It is a bad idea to lead with Politoed unless the opposing team doesn't have a weather starter.
-Under rain, Hurricane has 100% accuracy
-Strongest Hurricane in the game, deals major damage to anything that doesn't resist

-Taunt prevents opponents from using support moves such as Protect
-Tailwind can be used instead to boost your team's speed, and help your rain team to outspeed opposing rain teams
-Protect is protect, allowing you to scout attacks and prevent Tornadus from receiving damage
-Substitute can be used to prevent status, stall out Trick Room, and act as a buffer to launch high damage attacks. Thanks to Prankster, Tornadus is almost always guaranteed to get Substitute up when used, and requires a double-target or multi-hit move to guarantee getting through it.

[TEAM OPTIONS AND ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

Timid nature w/ max speed allows Tornadus to outspeed many common threats. A Modest nature with 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe EVs trades speed for bulk. Charti Berry is the preferred item for surviving a Tyranitar Rock Slide, while Yache Berry will help survive a strong Ice attack such as Blizzard. A Focus Sash can also be used to guarantee Tornadus survives at least one attack, but must beware weather damage from a Sandstorm or Hailstorm.

This Tornadus works best on a rain team, and pairs well with Pokemon that appreciate rain. Tornadus appreciates Fake Out support from Pokemon such as Toxicroak and Ludicolo; while they use Fake Out, Tornadus can safely summon rain with Rain Dance, and attempt a sweep on the next turn with Hurricane. Water-type Pokemon such as Kingdra can take care of problem Rock-types that give this Tornadus trouble, such as Terrakion and Tyranitar. Additionally ground-types like Gastrodon, Mamoswine, and Garchomp can muscle their way through most electric-types that can handle Hurricane, such as Zapdos, Thundurus, and most Rotom formes. Tailwind greatly benefits your whole team, allowing slower Pokemon such as Politoed and Toxicroak to outspeed many opponents.

i have honestly never seen a special tornadus besides mine on gbu, and it's pretty much outclassed by thundurus-t on rain teams. probs gonna move this down to oo along with all of its neato special moves.

[Other Options]

-Hammer Arm, which helps on Trick Room teams, though Superpower deals more raw damage
-Crunch hits cress for super effective damage but acrobatics does more and doesn't give terrakion a boost
-Rain Dance for rain teams to keep rain up. probably best to use this in tandem with hurricane and to not use it as your main source of rain (obviously)
-Brick Break is a cool physical fighting move with no drawbacks but its hella weak
-Swagger cos its fuckin swagger, dude. tornadus doesnt have room for it though even on prankster sets, so thund-i does it better unfortunately
-Role Play lets tornadus eat thunderbolts from thund-t, reinstate weather, copy intimidates and swift swim, and for the adventurous contrary+superpower. unfortunately it's no skill swap so you cant instantly give cress the potential to be god-tier annoying or take away storm drain from gastrodon, which would be very good reasons to use it.

LOTS OF SPECIAL MOVES COMING THROUGH

-special sets largely outclassed by thundurus-t in rain and physical tornadus. this is mostly because you either have to rely on 70% accurate hurricane or weak air slash for STAB and there aren't many other moves that make it past the 80 BP benchmark (heat wave is like 75 BP in doubs) except for grass knot against stuff like tyranitar (which doesn't ohko)

-Dark Pulse for hitting bulky Ghost and Psychic types like Chandelure, Cresselia, Jellicent
-Focus Blast can be used to muscle past Tyranitar, Terrakion, and Abomasnow, but the 70% accuracy can be off-putting.
-Grass Knot decimates Gastrodon and Swampert. (which is already accomplished by acrobatics)
-Heat Wave is an interesting option for spread damage, but generally other Pokemon can use Heat Wave better.
-Icy Wind deals minor spread damage and reduces speed of your opponents, it can be used instead of Tailwind if desired.
-Hidden Power Ice can be used to hit Zapdos, Thundurus, and Thundurus-T, who otherwise wall Tornadus

[Checks and Counters]

Like any other Flying-type, Pokemon that resist its STAB moves and threaten it with super-effective STAB moves of their own are Tornadus's natural predators. Zapdos, bulky Thundurus-I, and Rotom-W (as well as every other Rotom except Cut) spring to mind as the only thing that Tornadus can threaten the former two with is the rare Hidden Power Ice, and even then it misses out on OHKOing even with minimal defensive investment, and can only hope for a critical hit with Superpower should Tornadus be unfortunate enough to be left alone against a Rotom. Tyranitar with Chople Berry is another great check for Tornadus, as it isn't as afraid of Superpower as Dark Gem or Iron Ball variants are. Scarf Tyranitar can straight-up outspeed Tornadus and threaten with Rock Slide, although Jolly Tyranitar's Rock Slide misses out on OHKOing a full-health Tornadus without prior damage or Helping Hand support and Adamant Tyranitar has a 50/50 shot at OHKOing it, which aren't exactly betting odds. Metagross can switch in on the first Acrobatics with ease, making Tornadus easier to deal with for the rest of the match and can use Ice Punch or a simple Meteor Mash to bring it down to Bullet Punch range or even Feint range should you have another Pokemon with it. Lastly, Tornadus hates getting Burned or Paralyzed; Sableye is especially good at Burning Defiant variants, which are easy to pick out if you pay attention to the Ball it was released from, but it has to be wary of Prankster Tornadus that use Taunt. Cresselia is the prime user of Thunder Wave, and has the option of using Ice Beam to nail cheeky Tornadus that think theu can get away with simply Taunting a Cresselia. Cresselia also has the option of using Icy Wind, which can't be blocked by Taunt and can deal around 20% to Tornadus, making it easy pickings for the afore-mentioned Tyranitar.

[Darkmalice]

-Tailwind doubles the speed of your team for two turns

It lasts three turns excluding the turn that you set up Tailwind.

Regarding Foul Play in OO, generally you'd be using it on Psychic and Ghost-types who all have a lower Attack stat than Tornadus given its high base 115 Attack, so you'd probably be better off using Crunch, even with a (-)ve nature.

For the Acrobatics set

-Crunch deals reliable Dark damage, inflicting more damage than Acrobatics to Ghosts and Psychics once Flying Gem is used up.

x2 Crunch deals 160 base damage, STAB Acrobatics has 165 base damage. I would only mention Crunch in OO.

With Defiant, you could go one to say that Tornadus outspeeds and OHKOes the most common users of Intimidate (Hitmontop, Salamence, Gyarados) and more (Krookodile, Scrafty (which I expect to become more common next year)) after Intimidate (leading to +1 Attack) even if you've used up your Flight Gem.

You should also slash Substitute with Taunt, making the option of Substitute + Protect together in the Acrobatics set. It's very helpful for stalling out Trick Room whilst providing the benefits of both Protect and Substitute on one set. It was used commonly in Nationals and Words during VGC 2011. This should obviously only be done with Prankster.

I agree with you about splitting the Defiant and Prankster sets. As you said, they play differently, which merits the split. Defiant is an anti-Intimidate Pokemon with less focus on team support, Prankster focuses more on team support.

[Sprocket]

Excellent points Darkmalice, and I agree completely.

Defiant set will be separated from Prankster Acrobatics, as it functions mainly as an anti-Intimidate attacker. I'll slash Taunt and Substitute on both sets, as even without Prankster, Tornadus has a blistering fast base-111 speed to work with.

Crunch will be moved to OO, as the combo Acrobatics + Superpower hits pretty much everything sans Zapdos and Thundurus for neutral damage, and no physical attack can exceed the damage of STAB Acrobatics for Tornadus (resists and weaknesses excluded). Foul Play will be dropped from OO, as the targets that are viable to hit with it have low Attack stat anyway, and you'd be better off with Crunch.

[lucariojr]

bumping for second opinions n junk

[Biosci]

I feel like there should be a mention of a bulky Tornadus spread like the ones used in 2011 that could live other Acrobatics and KO back without taking the risk of a Speed tie. The issue with it in this metagame is that it loses out on its great Speed letting so many more threats outspeed you and KO. It's really up to you to include, but other than that this looks good.


QC Approved 1/3

[Anas2k7]

Originally Posted by Fat lucariojr

-Flying Gem Acrobatics for high damage, OHKOing common Pokemon such as Latios, Chandelure, Hitmontop.

252Atk Flight Gem lvl 50 Tornadus (Neutral) Acrobatics vs 252HP/0Def Flash Fire lvl 50 Chandelure (Neutral): 84% - 99% (141 - 166 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

[Biosci]

He's talking about 4 HP Chandelure, but that should definitely be specified. Thanks for the heads up

[Darkmalice]

If you're going to remove the rain support set, you could mention the options of Rain Dance and Hurricane in the AC of the Prankster set. Hurricane is a better STAB than Acrobatics if you're using the set on a rain team, and the set is viable on rain teams as strong Flying-STAB is really good for removing certain notable threats to rain teams like Amoonguss and Toxicroak. Hurricane and Rain Dance don't have to be used together though. Acrobatics has its perks over Hurricane like if rain isn't up and because Gem Hurricane only has a 31.25% chance to OHKO Latios. Similarly, rain team may elect not to use Rain Dance support. If you feel they're not AC worthy, then they should be mentioned in OO at least.

[callforjudgement]

I got a long way up ladder using Tornadus for rain support, but eventually swapped it out for Crobat. It basically had only two problems, but they were quite major: a) too weak to Fake Out, b) needs a Focus Sash to have a reasonable chance at setup (= you have to run the unreliable Hurricane over the reliable Acrobatics; Hurricane's unreliable because you can't rely on rain being up when you want to use it).

I don't think the rain support set is outclassed; it's faster support than Crobat, due to Prankster, and it doesn't suffer from being outsped by your team-mates like Crobat often does. The +1 speed tie with Thundurus is also valuable. It's just the Fake Out issues that cripple it so badly, and there's not so much you can do to fix that with your partner.

[breh]

Role play deserves some mention:

Copy intimidates
Copy teammate drizzle to redrizzle (kind of like rain dance but isn't useless when you don't need it)
Copy Flash Fire from heatran to take <Fire move>; same goes for chandelure to a lesser extent (though you don't really want to fuck with it too much).
Copy teammate Gastrodon Storm Drain and have gastrodon use surf or scald on the same turn (best used vs. double protect)
Copy teammate Lightningrod / Volt Absorb, eat Discharge
Copy opponent Thundurus-T Volt Absorb

It's fun to screw around with and there's a lot of silly potential applications.