Which is better, Energy Ball or Grass Knot? The official answer!

X-Act · Jun 29th, 2008, 10:36:32 AM

Energy Ball's base power is a constant 80. What is Grass Knot's base average power?

Taking into account May's statistics and type coverage, Grass Knot's average base power is 79.9.

I decided to also calculate what would be Low Kick's average base power. It is actually even higher: 80.8. Unfortunately, most Pokemon that learn Low Kick also learn a Fighting move of higher base power.

So basically, on average, both deal practically the same amount of damage.

Yuuki-kun · Jun 29th, 2008, 10:39:38 AM

Now I know not to use energy ball on my specs Roserade.
Thanks, X-act! :D

EvilBob · Jun 29th, 2008, 10:44:20 AM

For pokemon that use it for coverage and not stab, could you post the average base power counting only pokemon weak to grass?

gaudetjaja · Jun 29th, 2008, 10:44:58 AM

Uhm, honestly I expected a longer article than just these numbers (even though you probably did put a lot of work into this).

Anyway, the average is not what counts, it's the specific threats you want to hit with your move. Even though you may hit, say, snorlax harder with grass knot, you don't want to hit snorlax harder, but you want to hit, ie, vaporeon, in which case you should use Energy Ball.

Agahnim · Jun 29th, 2008, 10:59:43 AM

Why does low kick have a higher BP than grass knot? i thought both used the same formula for power.

Gandalf the blue · Jun 29th, 2008, 11:00:27 AM

It would be good to know for which pokemon you calculated the average damage :O
I am guessing it are all OU pokemon from May

X-Act · Jun 29th, 2008, 11:22:01 AM

Whoops, sorry, I made a mistake. Grass Knot and Energy Ball's average are basically identical.

Low Kick does slightly more damage than Grass Knot because Physical Fighting moves have better type coverage, on average, then Special Grass moves.

If type coverage is not taken into account and only Pokemon usages are, both Low Kick and Grass Knot's average base power would be 79.7.

Regarding Pokemon usages, I took all final evolutions forms, with Pikachu, Scyther, Phione and Vigoroth, into account.

Tytus · Jun 29th, 2008, 11:26:40 AM

This makes Low Kick more appealing to me than Cross Chop on Electivire. 4.4 lower base power, but 20% more accurate.

**kd24** · Jun 29th, 2008, 11:32:41 AM

Its interesting to know, but I agree that a chart or something would be nice to know exactly how it averages out. If all the the pokemon it hits strong are high OU and all the pokemon it hits weak are low OU then Grass Knot would be the better choice. However you can't see that off numbers so Energy Ball looks better off numbers.

rito · Jun 29th, 2008, 12:00:00 PM

Is the base power of grass knot determined by an actual formula with the opponent's weight as a variable? or just different weight classes and base powers associated with those classes (i.e. snorlax, tyranitar, mamoswine would be one). And if so, I'd like to know what the classes are in and which pokemon are in them, please.

X-Act · Jun 29th, 2008, 12:16:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat rito

Is the base power of grass knot determined by an actual formula with the opponent's weight as a variable? or just different weight classes and base powers associated with those classes (i.e. snorlax, tyranitar, mamoswine would be one). And if so, I'd like to know what the classes are in and which pokemon are in them, please.

Grass Knot can only hit for 20, 40, 60, 80, 100 or 120 base power, depending on the opponent's Pokemon's weight in kilograms.

These are the (final stage) Pokemon, in order of usage, that are dealt a Grass Knot of 120 base power:

Code:

Gyarados
Tyranitar
Heatran
Metagross
Snorlax
Hippowdon
Mamoswine
Dragonite
Rhyperior
Steelix
Hariyama
Lapras
Registeel
Torterra
Regirock
Aggron
Probopass
Regigigas
Camerupt
Mantine
Golem
Wailord
Glalie

100 base power:

Code:

Salamence
Forretress
Magnezone
Electivire
Dusknoir
Machamp
Suicune
Scizor
Milotic
Donphan
Spiritomb
Abomasnow
Kingdra
Tangrowth
Arcanine
Raikou
Regice
Claydol
Walrein
Cloyster
Ursaring
Rampardos
Slaking
Lickilicky
Exeggutor
Meganium
Skuntank
Lunatone
Bastiodon
Solrock
Entei
Dewgong

80 base power:

Code:

Garchomp
Lucario
Infernape
Starmie
Swampert
Skarmory
Heracross
Zapdos
Cresselia
Yanmega
Tentacruel
Deoxys-S
Gallade
Empoleon
Charizard
Crobat
Slowbro
Smeargle
Sceptile
Aerodactyl
Cradily
Ludicolo
Drapion
Venusaur
Blastoise
Flygon
Moltres
Typhlosion
Magmortar
Blaziken
Miltank
Feraligatr
Nidoking
Pinsir
Electrode
Cacturne
Hypno
Poliwrath
Scyther
Slowking
Tauros
Sharpedo
Torkoal
Nidoqueen
Articuno
Kangaskhan
Hitmonchan
Rapidash
Kingler
Ampharos
Mr. Mime
Armaldo
Golduck
Quagsire
Dodrio
Grumpig
Shiftry
Arbok
Stantler
Exploud
Seviper
Magcargo
Tropius
Swalot
Magneton

60 base power:

Code:

Gengar
Blissey
Gliscor
Weavile
Vaporeon
Togekiss
Breloom
Porygon-Z
Dugtrio
Wobbuffet
Alakazam
Umbreon
Froslass
Hitmontop
Floatzel
Gardevoir
Clefable
Porygon2
Medicham
Absol
Honchkrow
Azumarill
Houndoom
Toxicroak
Glaceon
Kabutops
Marowak
Leafeon
Persian
Espeon
Gastrodon
Jynx
Hitmonlee
Sandslash
Linoone
Omastar
Muk
Zangoose
Lopunny
Raichu
Manectric
Primeape
Butterfree
Bibarel
Luxray
Octillery
Politoed
Noctowl
Beedrill
Sudowoodo
Pidgeot
Parasect
Vespiquen
Granbull
Ledian
Purugly
Mightyena
Furret
Crawdaunt
Girafarig
Vigoroth
Ariados
Pelipper
Delcatty
Huntail
Carnivine
Fearow
Seaking
Dustox
Kricketune
Beautifly

40 base power:

Code:

Jolteon
Ninjask
Roserade
Staraptor
Ambipom
Shuckle
Swellow
Ninetales
Lanturn
Drifblim
Banette
Venomoth
Relicanth
Altaria
Kecleon
Vileplume
Dunsparce
Gorebyss
Raticate
Sableye
Xatu
Flareon
Victreebel
Mawile
Wigglytuff
Delibird
Mothim
Whiscash
Lumineon
Volbeat
Illumise
Farfetch'd

20 base power:

Code:

Celebi
Azelf
Jirachi
Mismagius
Weezing
Uxie
Shaymin
Mesprit
Jumpluff
Rotom
Shedinja
Qwilfish
Pikachu
Ditto
Chatot
Castform
Phione
Bellossom
Cherrim
Masquerain
Corsola
Sunflora
Chimecho
Pachirisu
Plusle
Minun
Wormadam (Steel)
Luvdisc
Spinda
Wormadam (Ground)
Unown
Wormadam (Grass)

**kd24** · Jun 29th, 2008, 12:17:32 PM

Thanks. That really helps a lot when determining which you need.

edit: somewhat surprised glalie takes more then slaking...

Phizzlax · Jun 29th, 2008, 12:24:45 PM

I've been using Low Kick on Evire all along and it works pretty well. Sucks when Blissey/Umbreon/Porygon2/Z pop out though =/ but the 20% accuracy bonus helps. Most of the things you want to Cross-Chop as a non-stab move are heavy. Low kick has PP too, for what it's worth.
Steelix
TTar
RegiALL
Mamoswine
Lapras
Rhyperior

Other things like Weavile die no matter how light they are.

Good job on the Comparison X-act.

Sixonesix · Jun 29th, 2008, 12:30:14 PM

I'd forgotten how light Celebi, Weezing, and Jirachi all were. Not that you'd want to hit them with Grass Knot anyway, but still...

Anyway, this is great, X-Act. Thanks.

Pedochu · Jun 29th, 2008, 12:32:55 PM

Thank you. I'm going with Energy Ball on pretty much everything that has a choice (my Sceptile I'm breeding soon).

And how does Dewgong weigh more than Garchomp?

**kd24** · Jun 29th, 2008, 12:57:18 PM

I have a pokemon weight book...

Dewgong: 264.6 lbs
Glalie: 565.6 lbs
Garchomp: 209.4 lbs

BlueCookies · Jun 29th, 2008, 1:11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Pedochu

Thank you. I'm going with Energy Ball on pretty much everything that has a choice (my Sceptile I'm breeding soon).

And how does Dewgong weigh more than Garchomp?

I was thinking the same thing lol. I guess it's because Dewgong has Thick Fat.

Articanus · Jun 29th, 2008, 1:26:05 PM

Cookies, I'm not sure to consider that a bad joke or an honest answer =/

Anyway, when you say "may's statistics", what number of pokemon does this include? all of them?

If you would, could you see the average base power of grass knot on OU pokemon? I'm sure it would be higher.

Bender · Jun 29th, 2008, 1:28:36 PM

In OU Grass knot is still the superior choice Gyarados, Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Milotic, Donphan and Suicune are hit for 100-120bp

Cynthia · Jun 29th, 2008, 1:29:24 PM

Energy Ball is probably better as an overall STAB attack so that you don't get randomly walled by crap like Azelf. However, Grass Knot's higher BP comes in useful against specific threats where it hits harder (Ttar,Hippo etc.) Most Pokemon without Grass STAB get Grass Knot, not Energy Ball, anyway so its sort of moot.

X-Act · Jun 29th, 2008, 4:27:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Articanus

Cookies, I'm not sure to consider that a bad joke or an honest answer =/

Anyway, when you say "may's statistics", what number of pokemon does this include? all of them?

If you would, could you see the average base power of grass knot on OU pokemon? I'm sure it would be higher.

When I say 'May's statistics', it automatically means that OU Pokemon are taken into account much more than non-OU ones. So what makes you so sure that it would be higher if I took into account OU Pokemon? I did take into account mostly OU Pokemon, since I took usages into account!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Bender

In OU Grass knot is still the superior choice Gyarados, Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Milotic, Donphan and Suicune are hit for 100-120bp

You're saying that I'm wrong, then? I said that I took May's statistics into account.

BlueCookies · Jun 29th, 2008, 4:39:04 PM

I think he means that in ladder matches we're unlikely to find pokemon in the 20BP group, like Unknown, Wormadam, Plusle, Luvdisc, where if you took pokemon like them away it might make it closer to 80BP. I still think I would choose Grass Knot on an OU pokemon because even if Energy Ball is superior, it's only by .1, which isn't much.

Articanus: Well, I thought it was a good joke. I mean, it makes sense. Dewgong is apparently fat so it must weigh more than Garchomp x_x

Also, if you're trying to decide Energy Ball or Grass Knot on a Pokemon like Celebi, even though by your statistics Energy Ball is better, Grass Knot is superior because you have to take into account who Celebi is trying to beat. A pokemon like Gyarados or Hiipowdon, who Celebi faces a lot more than Azelf, take Grass Knot at really high Base Power, making Grass Knot a superior choice.

X-Act · Jun 29th, 2008, 4:45:05 PM

By my statistics Energy Ball is not better. By my statistics they're both equally good.

Tytus · Jun 29th, 2008, 4:49:09 PM

I weigh more than Garchomp. Low Kick would have 80 base power against me :/

Syberia · Jun 29th, 2008, 5:10:31 PM

Well, it depends. If you're running a Grass move on your Jirachi, as I am, for the specific purpose of taking out Tyranitar, Swampert, and Rhyperior, among other threats, then Grass Knot is the better option. If you're running a Grass move on Celebi (who just happens to be your Gyarados counter), Grass Knot is again the better option. If you just need a somewhat reliable STAB sweeping move, Energy Ball might be the more reliable choice. The fact that they come out to have almost exactly the same base power just means that you need to look at other factors when you're trying to choose which move to use.

Jun 29th, 2008, 10:36:32 AM	#1
X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,679 Malta	Which is better, Energy Ball or Grass Knot? The official answer! Energy Ball's base power is a constant 80. What is Grass Knot's base average power? Taking into account May's statistics and type coverage, Grass Knot's average base power is 79.9. I decided to also calculate what would be Low Kick's average base power. It is actually even higher: 80.8. Unfortunately, most Pokemon that learn Low Kick also learn a Fighting move of higher base power. So basically, on average, both deal practically the same amount of damage. __________________ http://users.smogon.com/X-Act For all your Pokemon needs (and more!) including: the Defensive EVs applet, the Probabilities of Breeding IVs in Pokemon applet, and the Ratings of Pokemon Base Stats applet (now Version 2.0!). And also the IV to PID applet! Last edited by X-Act; Jun 29th, 2008 at 12:18:33 PM. Reason: I had made a mistake. Now the values are accurate.

Jun 29th, 2008, 10:39:38 AM	#2
Yuuki-kun Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 905	Now I know not to use energy ball on my specs Roserade. Thanks, X-act! :D __________________ FC:3737 7544 5502 Naïve #172 Pichu: 31 / 30 / 16 / 31 / 31 / 31 Hidden Power Type is 'Ice'. Hidden Power Power is 67. If interested in cloning it Or EVing/Rare Canding To evolve it into a Pikachu for a Copy and store credit for my future store PM me. Very Urgent

Jun 29th, 2008, 10:44:20 AM	#3
EvilBob Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 229	For pokemon that use it for coverage and not stab, could you post the average base power counting only pokemon weak to grass? __________________ www.Nuzlocke.com

Jun 29th, 2008, 11:22:01 AM	#7
X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,679 Malta	Whoops, sorry, I made a mistake. Grass Knot and Energy Ball's average are basically identical. Low Kick does slightly more damage than Grass Knot because Physical Fighting moves have better type coverage, on average, then Special Grass moves. If type coverage is not taken into account and only Pokemon usages are, both Low Kick and Grass Knot's average base power would be 79.7. Regarding Pokemon usages, I took all final evolutions forms, with Pikachu, Scyther, Phione and Vigoroth, into account. __________________ http://users.smogon.com/X-Act For all your Pokemon needs (and more!) including: the Defensive EVs applet, the Probabilities of Breeding IVs in Pokemon applet, and the Ratings of Pokemon Base Stats applet (now Version 2.0!). And also the IV to PID applet! Last edited by X-Act; Jun 29th, 2008 at 12:19:08 PM.

Jun 29th, 2008, 11:26:40 AM	#8
Tytus Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,422 RNG "abuse" just sounds so negative...	This makes Low Kick more appealing to me than Cross Chop on Electivire. 4.4 lower base power, but 20% more accurate. __________________ Nate: 4212 3316 6499 HeartGold: 4383 4383 4712

Jun 29th, 2008, 10:44:58 AM	#4
gaudetjaja Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 350 red light district	Uhm, honestly I expected a longer article than just these numbers (even though you probably did put a lot of work into this). Anyway, the average is not what counts, it's the specific threats you want to hit with your move. Even though you may hit, say, snorlax harder with grass knot, you don't want to hit snorlax harder, but you want to hit, ie, vaporeon, in which case you should use Energy Ball.

Jun 29th, 2008, 10:59:43 AM	#5
Agahnim Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 78	Why does low kick have a higher BP than grass knot? i thought both used the same formula for power.

Jun 29th, 2008, 11:00:27 AM	#6
Gandalf the blue Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 137 germany	It would be good to know for which pokemon you calculated the average damage :O I am guessing it are all OU pokemon from May

Jun 29th, 2008, 11:32:41 AM	#9
kd24 Surprise Mother Fucker Moderator Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 4,769 HOME	Its interesting to know, but I agree that a chart or something would be nice to know exactly how it averages out. If all the the pokemon it hits strong are high OU and all the pokemon it hits weak are low OU then Grass Knot would be the better choice. However you can't see that off numbers so Energy Ball looks better off numbers. __________________ My YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheLemondrop7

Jun 29th, 2008, 12:00:00 PM	#10
rito Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5	Is the base power of grass knot determined by an actual formula with the opponent's weight as a variable? or just different weight classes and base powers associated with those classes (i.e. snorlax, tyranitar, mamoswine would be one). And if so, I'd like to know what the classes are in and which pokemon are in them, please.

Jun 29th, 2008, 12:17:32 PM	#12
kd24 Surprise Mother Fucker Moderator Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 4,769 HOME	Thanks. That really helps a lot when determining which you need. edit: somewhat surprised glalie takes more then slaking... __________________ My YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheLemondrop7

Jun 29th, 2008, 12:24:45 PM	#13
Phizzlax Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 576	I've been using Low Kick on Evire all along and it works pretty well. Sucks when Blissey/Umbreon/Porygon2/Z pop out though =/ but the 20% accuracy bonus helps. Most of the things you want to Cross-Chop as a non-stab move are heavy. Low kick has PP too, for what it's worth. Steelix TTar RegiALL Mamoswine Lapras Rhyperior Other things like Weavile die no matter how light they are. Good job on the Comparison X-act.

Jun 29th, 2008, 12:30:14 PM	#14
Sixonesix Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 2,592	I'd forgotten how light Celebi, Weezing, and Jirachi all were. Not that you'd want to hit them with Grass Knot anyway, but still... Anyway, this is great, X-Act. Thanks.

Jun 29th, 2008, 12:32:55 PM	#15
Pedochu Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 22	Thank you. I'm going with Energy Ball on pretty much everything that has a choice (my Sceptile I'm breeding soon). And how does Dewgong weigh more than Garchomp?

Jun 29th, 2008, 12:57:18 PM	#16
kd24 Surprise Mother Fucker Moderator Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 4,769 HOME	I have a pokemon weight book... Dewgong: 264.6 lbs Glalie: 565.6 lbs Garchomp: 209.4 lbs __________________ My YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheLemondrop7

Jun 29th, 2008, 1:26:05 PM	#18
Articanus Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,002	Cookies, I'm not sure to consider that a bad joke or an honest answer =/ Anyway, when you say "may's statistics", what number of pokemon does this include? all of them? If you would, could you see the average base power of grass knot on OU pokemon? I'm sure it would be higher. __________________ Check out my blog! http://articanus.blogspot.com/

Jun 29th, 2008, 1:28:36 PM	#19
Bender Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 595 Playing Fire Emblem	In OU Grass knot is still the superior choice Gyarados, Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Milotic, Donphan and Suicune are hit for 100-120bp

Jun 29th, 2008, 1:29:24 PM	#20
Cynthia Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 641 US	Energy Ball is probably better as an overall STAB attack so that you don't get randomly walled by crap like Azelf. However, Grass Knot's higher BP comes in useful against specific threats where it hits harder (Ttar,Hippo etc.) Most Pokemon without Grass STAB get Grass Knot, not Energy Ball, anyway so its sort of moot.

Jun 29th, 2008, 4:39:04 PM	#22
BlueCookies April Fools 2009 Participant Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,263 NJ	I think he means that in ladder matches we're unlikely to find pokemon in the 20BP group, like Unknown, Wormadam, Plusle, Luvdisc, where if you took pokemon like them away it might make it closer to 80BP. I still think I would choose Grass Knot on an OU pokemon because even if Energy Ball is superior, it's only by .1, which isn't much. Articanus: Well, I thought it was a good joke. I mean, it makes sense. Dewgong is apparently fat so it must weigh more than Garchomp x_x Also, if you're trying to decide Energy Ball or Grass Knot on a Pokemon like Celebi, even though by your statistics Energy Ball is better, Grass Knot is superior because you have to take into account who Celebi is trying to beat. A pokemon like Gyarados or Hiipowdon, who Celebi faces a lot more than Azelf, take Grass Knot at really high Base Power, making Grass Knot a superior choice. __________________ http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...e/BryzGoal.gif

Jun 29th, 2008, 4:45:05 PM	#23
X-Act np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,679 Malta	By my statistics Energy Ball is not better. By my statistics they're both equally good. __________________ http://users.smogon.com/X-Act For all your Pokemon needs (and more!) including: the Defensive EVs applet, the Probabilities of Breeding IVs in Pokemon applet, and the Ratings of Pokemon Base Stats applet (now Version 2.0!). And also the IV to PID applet!

Jun 29th, 2008, 4:49:09 PM	#24
Tytus Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,422 RNG "abuse" just sounds so negative...	I weigh more than Garchomp. Low Kick would have 80 base power against me :/ __________________ Nate: 4212 3316 6499 HeartGold: 4383 4383 4712

Jun 29th, 2008, 5:10:31 PM	#25
Syberia Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 4,905 Irvine, CA	Well, it depends. If you're running a Grass move on your Jirachi, as I am, for the specific purpose of taking out Tyranitar, Swampert, and Rhyperior, among other threats, then Grass Knot is the better option. If you're running a Grass move on Celebi (who just happens to be your Gyarados counter), Grass Knot is again the better option. If you just need a somewhat reliable STAB sweeping move, Energy Ball might be the more reliable choice. The fact that they come out to have almost exactly the same base power just means that you need to look at other factors when you're trying to choose which move to use. __________________ Black/White Friend Code: 1721 2578 4968 My Pokemon \| Free Pokemon \| YouTube \| Wonder Cards (now with Movie Celebis for Platinum and HG/SS!)