Differences in Competitive Play between WiFi and Shoddy

[kokoloko*]

Hi, most of you have never heard of me because for the most part I'm, I believe the term is, a "lurker." However, recently I connected WiFi to my home computer so I decided to venture out of Shoddy battle and start playing over WiFi. I had always heard how different the two metagames are, but I never expected them to be as different as they actually are. Not only that, but my win/loss ratio is drastically better on WiFi than it is on Shoddy.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss why the two metagames are so different, and how these differences affect the quality of one's play.

Some differences, such as the lack of Rotom-A (for non-hackers, at least), are obvious. However, Rotom-A's absence has a greater effect than one might expect. Also, the length of battles is bound to play a factor in, not only team building, but decision making during each game. Using myself as an example, on Shoddy I tend to play much more carelessly than I do on WiF, simply because I know finding another battle and playing it out could take up to an hour. I also tend to avoid stall-oriented teams on WiFi due to the fact that, between the time players take to make a decision and the animation, stall matches are just too long to be enjoyable.

Anyway, discuss away.

This topic was approved by reachzero, by the way.

[Abacus]

Since I don't play wi-fi at all, I don't have much to add to this thread. I figured that there were a number of people like me, which is a shame because it was a good OP about an interesting topic.

But then I realized that though I've heard many people say that the population of smogon plays shoddy in preference to wi-fi, I have no evidence for this claim. So I would be interested in statistics on the subject; perhaps this thread could have a poll added with five options: 1) I play only wi-fi 2) I play mostly wi-fi, some shoddy battle 3) I play equal amounts of each 4) I play mostly shoddy battle, some wi-fi 5) I play only shoddy battle.

But please, don't let this derail the thread. I'm interested in what wi-fiers have to say on the subject.

[Oberon]

I must agree on this topic. For some reason Wi Fi causes me to play different and I tend to do better. Also it seems like crits and other status things tend to happen on wi fi more.

I've only been on shoddy a few times (probably a tiny bit more) so maybe I don't know completely.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

One big difference I have noticed is the greater variety of sets among serious battlers on Wifi, particularly the Youtube community. "Smogon sets" are very stigmatized on Youtube, and even extremely well-known and respected battlers frequently compliment the "cleverness" or "originality" of opponents' sets. Even for people who use Pokesav and Action Replay, giving Shoddy-like control over their team, using Pokemon like standard CB Scizor or Scarf Heatran is considered almost dirty.

One of the best-known battlers, wilechase, uses almost exclusively Pokemon in the top 10 Shoddy OU usage statistics and almost entirely Smogon sets, and he takes heat in the comments section of virtually every one of his videos. Meanwhile, TheKillerNacho has over 11,000 subscribers (wilechase has like 3,000) and is famous for using Lead Furret in OU. This is virtually the opposite of Shoddy, where users on these forums are often harshly criticized for even minor deviations from established Pokemon and movesets unless they have a very good reason for it. It's a creativity vs. competition divide.

[Rorus Raz]

I'd say people on YouTube have to be unique somehow to get hits and subscriptions, and thus a need for creativity over effectiveness. It's about the spectacle, after all, and a Furret winning games is going to stand out over teams full of standard OU stuff.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Right, I wasn't making a qualitative judgment, sorry if you perceived that as opinionated either way. I greatly enjoy both styles of battling, and I agree that Youtube is the best outlet for those clever sets, while Shoddy with its formal ladder system is the best outlet for the tried-and-true.

[Slashtap3]

Rorus wasn't saying you were judging, he was explaining your observation.

Your point is very objective and a good one. I'll have to check that guy out.

[ninja death strike]

I've played the ladder on Shoddy (although not very extensively) and done a lot of wifi battling. There is definitely a different mindset for wi-fi battles. Even people who have pokesav or an action replay tend to deviate from standard sets. I think one of the reasons this might happen is because when you play wi-fi, you're more likely to know the person your competing against, even if it's just because you're a member of the same forum or group. Because of this you're more relaxed and perhaps a bit less competitive. Also, I think the wi-fi battles have a higher level of involvement. Shoddy is a great outlet for people that can't or don't want to play on wi-fi, but it's not the same as having a real battle. Because it's more immerse, you're more likely to use pokemon you genuinely like, rather than the best ones in the current metagame. Finally, for people who are breeding and training each and every team member they use, there is a significant time commitment involved and so changes in the metagame come slower because people are reluctant to re-train a pokemon they've already raised just for one new move.

[BboyYabei]

Honestly, i can say i prefer Shoddy to Wi-fi for a number of reasons.

As mentioned above, Wi-fi contains a massive amount of commitment unless you use pokesav, which i personally dont. I remember not wanting to change my team around solely because of the sheer amount of time it takes just to get desirable IVs/nature/egg moves etc. I dont want to spend all that freakin time. When i can just play shoddy and get my team set up in like 20 minutes. Ope need to make a change? a few clicks and its done. Shoddy is just that easy(and so is pokesav buuuut)

Speaking of which, i have to go breed my DDance ttars so ill be back later.

On a quick note. Id like to see people with there different sets(lead furret lulwat?) battle some people using completely Smogon Standard pokes. Or if its already been recorded, could some one link me?

Au revoir

[Sceats]

Personally I don't have much time on my hands nowadays. This means that games that last for a minimum of half an hour and team building that takes weeks makes wifi very inconvenient for me. Shoddy on the other hand is far quicker and more efficient and due to how volatile it can get it's also more fun.

[imapedarsag]

Admittedly, I've never played on WiFi, but I frequently play on Shoddy. From what I hear, WiFi sounds more fun. I don't remember who said it, but they were dead on. When it becomes this competitive, it is more a game of chess. What makes WiFi fun is that every pokemon is actually different. My CB Scizor could have 1 more speed IV than yours and therefore I could win the game because of my training. On Shoddy, however, its either a coin toss, or one of us thought ahead and added more speed. The emphasis on training is because I believe that's what pokemon is truly about, to show off your hard work. On shoddy, all my work is just punching in a couple numbers. I understand some people can't RNG and others don't even have the game, but that's a whole other issue of promoting the company or not. From what I've heard and the conclusions I've drawn based off of them, WiFi is much more diversed and predicting is therefore more difficult, while Shoddy is centralized and has turned into a serious game of chess. As fun as chess is, I like the idea of raising my own pokemon and then playing chess with them. Lastly, don't forget that pokemon is categorized as a role-playing game, not a strategy game.

[Scarlet Spyder]

I play on Wi-fi only so I wouldn't know how to compare it to shoddy besides what I read on Smogon. Most players on Wi-fi aren't very good and the most annoying part is when they use non-standard sets or Pokemon that end up screwing you over. However, I find the overall experience very enjoyable (besides the sore losers who disconnect of course). No Rotom and less Jirachi/Celebi is pretty important for Wi-fi metagame too.

[Chou Toshio]

I think people underestimate the degree to which shoddy's ladder affects the quality of their opponents. Ever wondered why Electivire's usage is so radically different between the skill-based and raw data? How electivire can get so much raw usage without you seeing a single one all month?

There are actually a lot of players who do not reach a certain threshold of skill, and ladder prunes out more weak match ups than you would imagine.

On wifi, most of the time you're just picking up random battles from whoever happens to be on, or who challenges you over youtube or wherever. It's obvious that the quality of opponents is going to be different simply based on the lack of pruning (unless you go out of your way only to fight well-known opponents). This is not saying that the overall level of players is lower (it's probably not all that different overall)-- simply that your opponents are more random, so you have a higher chance of running into and actually playing the weaker players than you would on shoddy.

Finally, shoddy simply is where more serious battlers are playing. I can guarantee you the top guys on the ladder almost never play any wifi battles, so there is also an affect in that regard.

This is not to say there aren't good players who use wifi-- there are a couple of really strong guys who do. However, the simple difference in the sheer number of battles possible, and the difference in degree of difficulty to put together multiple teams (especially if you're only using legit pokemon) causes discrepancies.

Keep in mind to that in most likelihood, the strongest teams are going to be those that have been tried and tested on shoddy, but might be a bit behind due to the time it takes to first test and then make the team in-carte.

[Little Green Yoda]

Originally Posted by Fat kokoloko

Some differences, such as the lack of Rotom-A (for non-hackers, at least), are obvious. However, Rotom-A's absence has a greater effect than one might expect. Also, the length of battles is bound to play a factor in, not only team building, but decision making during each game. Using myself as an example, on Shoddy I tend to play much more carelessly than I do on WiF, simply because I know finding another battle and playing it out could take up to an hour.

Aside from the availability of certain Pokemon, the main difference between the two metagames lies in the volume of matches. Without getting into the assumption that Shoddy players are necessarily better than Wifi players due to more battle experience (I'm sure there is more overlap between the two populations than most of us realize), the Wifi metagame is a lot more disjointed compared to what the Shoddy ladder provides.

On the Shoddy ladder, you're often pitted against a group of players who have or will battle one another at some point in time (due to rating, time availability). These interactions between these players will affect each player's team building and playstyle. The volume of matches between these players strengthen and reinforce these metagame trends and you see them reflected in the monthly statistics. In contrast, a Wifi player isn't likely to play as often and any trends that player may influence are inherently weaker. The occasional difficulty in finding a match means a Wifi player may often seek battles on various sites and this further weakens the possibility of a trend taking hold. Of course, there are exceptions when certain trends reveal themselves to be very strong and possibly permanent (e.g. Scizor's rise to the top of OU).

Lastly, anyone who has laddered regularly knows that winning/losing a particular match is mostly meaningless. It's all about your proficiency against the ladder overall that matters (assuming you're playing for a high rating). OTOH, Wifi matches are more immersive and players tend to be more focused in really winning the match at hand, mainly because fewer matches are played compared to Shoddy. Wifi battles are more akin to tournament matches than ladder matches in this regard.

Combined with the disjointed metagame mentioned earlier, this allows for less orthodox sets to flourish. The surprise factor is more effective because it's less likely to be copycatted rampantly as it would be in ladder play. Sets that are normally checked by the field in ladder play suddenly become a real threat because such a field may not exist in the Wifi metagame. (i.e. you may be able to get away with using a team weak to Electivire on certain parts of the ladder because nobody uses Electivire since most teams shut it down) You don't really know what experiences your opponent may be drawing from in creating his/her team on Wifi unlike the ladder where most regulars have a decent grasp of what's popular at the time. All of this makes the metagame in Wifi more open than what you would find on Shoddy and that's part of the fun. :)

[Infinite_Bob]

I haven't done any WIFI battling, well besides friends (and that's a whole other topic), mainly because I can't RNG because I haven't found a natural shiny or know how for that matter. If I could I could get the pokemon I want quicker, because I'm still trying how to figure how I get dragon dance down to Larvitar.. (Because of my lack of skill, time, etc.. lol)

Shoddy is really easy for me to start up and use the pokemon I want to use, whether I do well or not doesn't matter to me. Unless the person on the other side starts talking smack or something. I've LOVED crobat lead, just because crobat's awesome and KillerNacho is awesome. I bet I won't be the best, but I want the availability of battling. Which Is why I shoddy a lot.

[neverender1862]

I've played Wi-fi a few times, but it's Shoddy that I frequent more. And I've played in-game longer than I've played on Shoddy, so I guess I'd know what I'm talking about.

The original purpose of the Pokémon games, as stated above, is to show off your hard work, dedication, and training, to grow along with your Pokémon as you fight more battles. I think this would be more true in Wi-fi, since you have to work very hard to get the EVs and IVs for your Pokémon. That work pays off when it turns out that you've trained your Pokémon better than your opponent. In Wi-fi, it's completely possible for your Pokémon to never have perfect 31 IVs. That's where the training, breeding, getting the event Pokémon and all the other complexities in-game matter the most.

On the other hand, (I'm guessing that) the reason why Shoddy even exists today is because of the complexities I mentioned. A lot of people don't want to go through all that tediousness just to experience the satisfaction of winning against other trainers. Shoddy goes around that flaw in people and gives us a convenient way to simulate Wi-fi battles. In that light, standard, close-to-perfect Pokémon are now more viable since we can just input the desired EVs, IVs, natures, held items, and moves. Shoddy Battle exists merely because there are players of Pokémon who want to experience the more strategic and intense aspect of battling.

Shoddy and Wi-fi are two completely different ways of enjoying battles, simply because they are tailored for different purposes. Even if Shoddy was meant to be as close to the real thing as possible, it will never match the Wi-fi when it comes to fostering the dedication and hard work that Pokémon was created for. Conversely, Wi-fi won't be as competitive as the metagame on Shoddy Battle.

[MegaKick]

something i find quite interesting that no one has mentioned that has been a signifigant factor for me is the chat. While I don't play wifi, I can say that there have been many times where I have goaded someone into a false prediction, and been goaded. This can really affect a battle. Wifi has no such chat, unless players are texting each other on their phones or IMing or something.

[lesalia]

I prefer wi-fi over shody

I only use shody to test teams before building them in-game since I dont want to waste any time

Many people are whining that the team building in-game takes weeks I dont understand those people. Once I knew what team I want it only takes me 8-10hours including geting good IVs natures egg moves and EVing

wi-fi is more fun and easy to flow the battle flow althouth it takes longer
as I sais shody is like chess it anoyins me to read some moves as Im not a quick reader wifi eliminates that problem for me with (some say silly) battle animations

[M Dragon]

Main difference is that you cant use rotom-a in wifi (just with cheats), so its usually banned in wifi

[Ness]

I prefer Wi-Fi because in Shoddy I think there are too many bog standards, but in Wi-Fi I can use who I want. I use a lead Furret in Wi-Fi a lot(probably before that one Nacho guy started using his, since I made my Furret in 2007) and it is successful but in Shoddy a lead Furret is near useless.

In Wi-Fi I feel like I can be successful using a variety of Pokemon more, rather than having to build a team around the bog standards you see in Shoddy.

I could care less about winning or losing, but its fun to win 60-70% of the time with Pokemon people don't expect, than to try to build a team that wins 95% of the time but is uncreative and boring.

My only problem with Wi-Fi, that will probably never be fixed, is that you need friend codes to battle. That is the biggest hassle of them all, having to register a friend code and find them in the lobby. I wish there was a 6 vs. 6 random battle option.

[kokoloko*]

Originally Posted by Fat Darkwatch

I must agree on this topic. For some reason Wi Fi causes me to play different and I tend to do better. Also it seems like crits and other status things tend to happen on wi fi more.

I've only been on shoddy a few times (probably a tiny bit more) so maybe I don't know completely.

For me, its the complete opposite. I always get haxed to death on Shoddy, while on WiFi, most of my battles tend to be hax free or with minimal, meaningless hax.

A point I wanted to emphasize though was the fact that the differences between the two metagames actually affect the way I play. I don't know if it's just me though.

[lesalia]

well yeah the only hax that occured withing these three months was one battle with TDS in which I haxed him to death. Other than that only uselass hax strikes overheat on abomansnow with focus sash/full health crit , against my 1hp abomansnow surf crit and other useles hax

[Showsni]

Originally Posted by Fat Uberiffic

something i find quite interesting that no one has mentioned that has been a signifigant factor for me is the chat. While I don't play wifi, I can say that there have been many times where I have goaded someone into a false prediction, and been goaded. This can really affect a battle. Wifi has no such chat, unless players are texting each other on their phones or IMing or something.

Um, wifi has voice chat using the DS's microphone.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Originally Posted by Fat BboyYabei

On a quick note. Id like to see people with there different sets(lead furret lulwat?) battle some people using completely Smogon Standard pokes. Or if its already been recorded, could some one link me?

Here is a video with an OU battle that has some odd Pokes and sets, like a CB Azelf, a Gengar lead with Substitute, etc. It has some more standard stuff in it too, though, like Curselax and Thunder Wave/Air Slash/Aura Sphere/Roost Togekiss @Leftovers.

This is an OU battle from earlier this month where TheKillerNacho uses Dustbuster, the lead Furret, and it actually does really well.

Keep in mind that these are not "lol super original movesets check out my Specs Snorlax" battlers (and there are plenty of those). Xenon and Nacho are very well-respected competitors (although Xenon mostly plays lower tiers). This is just what the Youtube meta is like.

@Little Green Yoda
You are dead on. I couldn't have said it better.

[Pollux-Castor]

Not sure if anyone said this but on Shoddy the Pokemon will always have perfect 31s across the board while on Wifi it depends on the foes' dedication. Someone like Gengar has weak defenses anyways so normally a person would breed for a 31 (or 30) IV in speed and 31 special attack. If they didn't care about defenses at all there will be a significant difference in how many attacks he survives.

Also, the Mic doesn't always work and might be be unclear or broken so the bluffing aspect often isn't there.