Jirachi (Analysis)

[Overview]

<p>Jirachi graces the Ubers enviornment as a great supporting Pokemon. With its solid base 100/100/100 defenses and resistance to common Dragon-type moves, it can take on those powerful Dragons with ease and use its large support movepool to simultaneously cripple opponents and aid its teammates. An immunity to Poison also helps in prolonging Jirachi's lifespan, as it is unaffected by Toxic Spikes and Toxic itself, both of which are very common in the Ubers tier. On top of all this, it can also deal reasonable damage with its base 100 attacking stats. However, Jirachi’s average Attack stat prevents it from dealing great damage to bulky Physical Walls.</p>

[SET]
name: Ubers Wisher
move 1: Wish
move 2: U-turn
move 3: Protect / Iron Head
move 4: Body Slam / Thunder Wave / Stealth Rock
item: Leftovers
nature: Careful
evs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Jirachi can fill the role of a great supporter for any team; its excellent typing allows it to take powerful Dragon-type attacks, and its great support movepool becomes a good asset to Jirachi's teammates. The combination of Wish and Protect serves as Jirachi's means of recovery, and Wish can be passed to heal its teammates as well. Jirachi may also support its team with paralysis. Thunder Wave is guaranteed to paralyze anything that isn't a Ground-type, while Body Slam has a nifty 60% paralysis rate due to Serene Grace and hits everything but Ghost-types. U-turn allows Jirachi to scout the opponent's team, and is a nifty way to provide recovery to a teammate with Wish. Stealth Rock is another support option if your team lacks a designated Stealth Rock user.</p>

<p>The choice between Protect and Iron Head should be determined on whether you want Jirachi to survive the next turn for certain, or whether you want to have a reliable STAB move with a 60% chance of flinching the opposing Pokemon. Iron Head can make it very difficult for the opponent to move if they get paralyzed; while immobilized, Jirachi can simply chip away at the opposing Pokemon's health to eventually take it down. This works especially well on foes such as Latias, Giratina-O, Latios, Rayquaza, Mewtwo, and Darkrai, Pokemon that are usually fast, but not as bulky.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Kyogre, Groudon, Palkia, Dialga, Giratina, and Garchomp are all solid counters and checks to Jirachi as it lacks the raw power to deal significant damage to them. These Pokemon can easily wait for a turn when they're not fully paralyzed or flinched, as they take minimal damage from Iron Head, then proceed to KO Jirachi. Groudon and Garchomp are immune to Thunder Wave and can KO Jirachi with Earthquake, but they must be wary of Body Slam.</p>

<p>Latias is a good teammate to switch into Kyogre and Groudon, and she can 2HKO either with Grass Knot. Latias can also switch into Palkia's Surf and Garchomp's Earthquake, outspeed and OHKO them with Dragon Pulse, or force them to switch if they are Scarfed. Specially defensive Groudon may be used to take an attack from Dialga, then maim it with Earthquake.</p>

<p>Toxic can be used to cripple bulky switch-ins, particularly Groudon and Lugia. Jirachi can also run the dual screens in the last two slots in order to support a frail sweeper. Jirachi may also run extra Speed to outrun offensive variants of Pokemon, such as Groudon and Kyogre, but it doesn't gain much by doing this. Ice Punch may also be used to deal heavy damage to Rayquaza and Garchomp, and Fire Punch to deal heavy damage to Forretress and Scizor. Finally, Jirachi can also utilize Thunder with rain support.</p>

[SET]
name: Ubers Choice Scarf
move 1: Iron Head
move 2: Trick
move 3: Ice Punch / Fire Punch
move 4: U-turn
nature: Jolly
item: Choice Scarf
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>When it comes to revenge killing, Jirachi is often overlooked in favor of more powerful Pokemon such as Garchomp, Palkia, and Dialga. Even though Jirachi lacks the raw power that they have, it does boast many qualities that they can only wish they had; Jirachi's long list of resistances, most notably to Dragon-type moves, allow it to switch into the likes of Latios, Latias, and Rayquaza easily. Due to Jirachi's resistance to ExtremeSpeed and greater base 100 Speed, Jirachi is one of the few Pokemon that can revenge kill both Swords Dance and Dragon Dance Rayquaza, something only Choice Scarf Gengar and Garchomp can do otherwise. Finally, unlike other Choice Scarfers, Jirachi is remarkably difficult to trap with Wobbuffet as Jirachi can cripple it with Trick, escape its shadowy clutches via U-turn, or simply get lucky and flinch it to death with Iron Head.</p>

<p>Iron Head is the bread-and-butter of this set, as with the Speed boost from Choice Scarf, Jirachi will have an extremely easy time outspeeding most Pokemon you are likely to encounter, greatly increasing the number of Pokemon it can repeatedly flinch with Iron Head. It is also Jirachi's strongest reliable physical attack - that said, don't expect it to hit too hard coming off Jirachi's only decent offensive stats. Fortunately, this is more than offset by its incredibly high chance to flinch; Jirachi is capable of chaining a few flinches now and then to actually inflict a great deal of damage. U-turn is a great move for maintaining the momentum on your side of the battle, and it allows Jirachi to scout for potential switch-ins as well as leaving quite a dent on the likes of Mewtwo, Latias, and Latios. Ice Punch is the preferred option on the third moveslot as it can easily dispatch Rayquaza, Garchomp, and Shaymin-S, though the former two require a bit of residual damage to be knocked out by it. Fire Punch can be used to cook Forretress, Scizor, and Lucario, as all three can otherwise wall the set. Finally, Trick is great for crippling targets after Jirachi's job is done; however, be warned that Tricking too early in the match forfeits Jirachi's role as a revenge killer, and furthermore, it will completely fail to work against Giratina-O, Arceus, and does essentially nothing against other Choice Scarfers, so use it with extreme care.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The EVs are relatively simple; maximizing Attack allows Jirachi to deal as much damage as possible - this is particularly important as its offensive prowess is rather lackluster; and maximum Speed allows Jirachi to speed tie with Dragon Dance Salamence. Even with no investment, Jirachi's natural bulk, coupled with its resistances, allows it to absorb most resisted hits with ease.</p>

<p>Jirachi is best fitted on a team that requires the use of all of its qualities, which are revenge killing both Swords Dance and Dragon Dance Rayquaza, Nasty Plot Darkrai, Calm Mind Mewtwo, and most variants of Latias, (remove comma) and Latios. Jirachi should not have a team built around it, but it will appreciate the partnership of several Pokemon. Stealth Rock support is almost required so that it can land a clean OHKO on Rayquaza with Ice Punch, as well as 2HKO Darkrai with Iron Head. Groudon, Tyranitar, and Deoxys-S are all excellent choices for that role. Spikes support is highly appreciated as well, and it works extremely well in tandem with U-turn; Deoxys-S, Forretress, and Skarmory can provide this. The last two examples are great Dragon resists in their own right, as this Jirachi set lacks recovery and power, and thus can not be entirely relied on to take more powerful blows.</p>

<p>As Jirachi fulfills the role of a revenge killer, as well as a Steel-type, it makes Latias and Latios easier to fit on your team. Either of these Pokemon covers up all of Jirachi's weaknesses, while Jirachi resists their Dragon- and Ice- type weaknesses. Giratina-O is in a similar boat; Choice Scarf Jirachi can often land a U-turn on the likes of Mewtwo, Latias, and Latios as they fire attacks that threaten it, only to have Giratina-O absorb the ineffective hit instead. Giratina-O can then finish off the remains of their HP with Shadow Sneak. For this tactic to have the most success, however, entry hazards are a necessity, and Giratina-O can conveniently preserve them thanks to its immunity to Rapid Spin.</p>

<p>As mentioned before, Choice Scarf Jirachi lacks recovery and power, and repeated Dragon-type attacks from the likes of Dialga and Palkia will quickly wear it down. Furthermore, Jirachi's weakness to Fire-type attacks means it can be OHKOed if your opponent predicts the switch-in. A backup Steel-type Pokemon is appreciated due to this. Heatran in particular gets a nod as it can absorb Fire-type attacks that are aimed at Jirachi. Skarmory will have troubles with Mewtwo, Latias, and Latios, which Jirachi can cover to an extent, while but Skarmory's immunity to Earthquake allows it to handle Garchomp and Groudon. Although Tyranitar is not a Steel-type, its resistance to Fire-type attacks and boosted Special Defense grants it the ability to take on specially offensive Dragon-type attacks with moderate ease.</p>

[SET]
name: Ubers Substitute + Thunder Wave
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Thunder Wave
move 3: Iron Head
move 4: Ice Punch / Body Slam / Fire Punch
item: Leftovers
nature: Careful
evs: 252 HP / 100 Atk / 156 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Jirachi's infamous set of OU happens to have great potential in Ubers. Its excellent typing allows it to take many special threats such as Latias, Latios, Giratina-O, Mewtwo and, Darkrai. It may also take a range of Dragon-type attacks from Choiced Pokemon such as Palkia, Dialga, Garchomp, and Rayquaza due to its Steel typing. Keep in mind, though, that if they aren't Choiced, opposing Pokemon can use a powerful move that isn’t resisted by Jirachi and it will take some heavy damage. After taking the attack, Jirachi may proceed to use either Substitute to scout the switch and protect it from status, or Thunder Wave the opposing Pokemon. Due to the largely Speed oriented metagame, Thunder Wave can cripple many fast sweepers. Jirachi can then commence with the infuriating Para-Flinch strategy with Iron head. This strategy is very useful for taking hits from frail but fast sweepers, then taking them down.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The EVs allow Jirachi to make 101 HP Subs, which helps it survive 2 hits from Bissey's Seismic Toss. The Special Defense EVs allow some extra bulk for Jirachi, allowing it to take powerful special attacks more easily; the rest of the EVs are dumped into Attack to deal more damage to the likes of Mewtwo and Latias. With Serene Grace, Iron Head provides a reliable STAB move with a 60% flinch rate. Combined with paralysis, there is only a 30% chance for the opponent to attack while Jirachi uses Iron head. Jirachi's last move depends on its team, as well as a matter of personal preference. Ice Punch can be used to finish off Pokemon such as Giratina-O, Latias, and Lugia to avoid having to risk another turn of banking on a flinch. Body Slam allows Jirachi to deal cheap damage as well as having a 60% chance of paralysis. Body Slam can also paralyze Groudon and Garchomp, which Thunder Wave cannot. Body Slam may also be used to deal with frail Substitute users so that they either lose 25% of their HP each turn or face a 60% chance to get paralyzed. This is also effective against Taunt users, most notably Mewtwo. Fire Punch is effective to surprise Steel-types such as Scizor and Forretress. Keep in mind though that Fire Punch will not be of much use if Kyogre is on your team, as Fire Punch's power would be halved.</p>

<p>Wish may be used for self recovery, in which when combined with Iron Head, provides a degree of invincibility. Thunder also has a 60% paralysis rate with Serene Grace, but can only really be used in the rain for its higher accuracy. U-turn is a great scouting move, especially when Groudon and Kyogre switch in; it also deals decent damage to Psychic-types while switching out.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>Kyogre makes a great teammate for Jirachi as it provides rain, weakening common Fire-type attacks aimed it. Latias can switch into many of Jirachi's counter's attacks, such as Kyogre and Palkia's surf, Groudon and Garchomp's Earthquake, and Dialga's Fire Blast. It can also destroy Steel-types that switch into Jirachi by using either Hidden Power Fire or Thunder. Giratina is a fantastic choice to pair with Jirachi as it can easily take attacks that Jirachi is weak to and can cripple the opponent with Will-O-Wisp or phaze them with Roar. Ho-Oh can switch into Surf in the sun, is immune to Earthquake, and can recover off the damage taken from Stealth Rock with Jirachi's Wish. Dialga can switch into Surf from Kyogre and Palkia and firing back Thunder. Magnezone can trap common Scizor, Forretress, and Skarmory switch-ins and take them out with Thunderbolt or Hidden Power Fire.</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>Jirachi's wide movepool allows the use of many other moves. Fire Punch allows it to take down common Forretress, Scizor, and Skarmory switch-ins but cannot be used in the rain effectively. Thunder can deal reasonable damage to Kyogre and has a 60% paralysis rate thanks to Serene Grace. Toxic can cripple common switch-ins to Jirachi, such as Groudon, Kyogre, and Lugia; while Jirachi still cannot deal anything back, it will be able to quickly wear them down. Jirachi can also run a dual screen set which can aid in sweeping or to add extra defenses to the team.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Jirachi has many counters; Kyogre won't take much damage from any of its attacks, save for Thunder, and can retaliate with Surf which will at least 2HKO it. Groudon is immune to Thunder Wave and will easily KO Jirachi with Earthquake. Any Steel-type can easily switch into Jirachi's attacks and completely wall it, unless it runs Fire Punch. Any Pokemon faster than Jirachi with Taunt or Substitute can easily set up on it, (remove comma) while Jirachi does little damage back; this is especially true for Mewtwo. Bulkier Pokemon and those who resist Jirachi's STAB can easily switch in and take minimal damage, then proceed to attack or cripple it with status; examples include Giratina, Ho-Oh, Palkia, Dialga, Garchomp, and Manaphy, the last one is also immune to status in the rain. Jirachi also hates to be burned as Iron Head will be severely weakened and will only deal around 14% damage to Pokemon such as Latias. Jirachi also hates paralysis as it ruins its attempt to combine its own paralysis and Iron Head.</p>

Finally! Done! Get this GP checked before 5th gen takes over!
 

shrang

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ScarfRachi wants 252 Spe, IMO, for one very important threat: Salamence. It'll be good if the Wish set at least had a bulkier spread mentioned like 252 HP/4 Def/252 SpD Careful or something like that so you can easily take Dragon attacks and Wish it off. Stealth Rock should also be mentioned somewhere too, I reckon.

Also, if it will be allowed, I'd like to consider sub wave rachi
Yeah, what happened to that?? Just post it up and if gets rejected, it gets rejected, lol.
 
Yeah, reckoned 252/252 EV spread was better too. It was just what the old analysis said. I will slash in SR. I'll do the sub wave set tomorrow.
 

Conflict

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World Defender
Some AC material for the Wish-set:

Toxic - good vs. Groudon/Garchomp-Swich-Ins.
Light Screen - helps to wall some threats easier and supports the team (even without Light Clay)
Reflect - look LS.

I tested all these options and they are all decent.

And i dont think U-Turn is a must-have move on Special Defensive Jirachi although it can be quite nice.
 

Jibaku

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You don't have to worry about Scarfrachi I already wrote it a while ago. Oh and U-turn is an absolute must because ScarfJirachi forces a lot of switches but it's otherwise pretty weak so that's the best it can do.

[SET]
name: Ubers Choice Scarf
move 1: Iron Head
move 2: U-turn
move 3: Ice Punch / Fire Punch
move 4: Trick
nature: Jolly
item: Choice Scarf
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>When it comes into revenge killing, Jirachi is often overlooked in favor of fellow Choice Scarf holding Pokemon such as Garchomp, Palkia, and Dialga. Even though Jirachi lacks the raw power that they have, it boasts many qualities that they can only wish to have. One of these qualities is Jirachi's long list of resistances, most notably to Dragon- type moves, allowing Jirachi to more easily switch into the likes of Latios, Latias, Garchomp, and Rayquaza. Due to Jirachi's resistance to ExtremeSpeed as well as possessing a moderately high base 100 Speed, Jirachi can revenge kill both Swords Dance and Dragon Dance Rayquaza with ease, something only Choice Scarf Gengar can do otherwise. Finally, unlike other Choice Scarfers, Jirachi is remarkably difficult to trap via Wobbuffet as it can cripple it with Trick, escape its shadowy clutches via U-turn, or possibly flinch it to death with Iron Head.</p>

<p>Iron Head is the bread-and-butter of this set, as with the added Speed boost from Choice Scarf, Jirachi will have an extremely easy time outspeeding most Pokémon you are likely to encounter, making it much easier to repeatedly flinch opponents. It is also Jirachi's strongest reliable physical attack - that said, however, don't expect it to hit hard due to Jirachi's overall mediocre offensive power as well as the fact that it is resisted by a number of Pokemon. However, the incredibly high chance of flinching granted via Serene Grace turn this into an mere illusion. Jirachi is capable of chaining a a few flinches now and then and inflict a great deal of damage. U-turn is a great move for maintaining momentum, allowing it to scout for potential switch ins as well as leaving quite a dent on the likes of Mewtwo, Latias, and Latios. Ice Punch is the preferred option on the third moveslot as it can easily dispatch of Rayquaza, Garchomp, and Shaymin-S, though the former two require a bit of residual damage to be knocked out by it. However, Fire Punch can be used to fry Forretress, Scizor, and Lucario, as all three can otherwise wall the set. Finally, Trick is great for crippling targets after Jirachi's job is done, and can be used in dire emergencies. However, be warned that Tricking too early forfeits Jirachi's role as a revenge killer, and furthermore, Trick fails against Giratina-O and does essentially nothing against other Choice Scarfers, so use with extreme care.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>The EVs are relatively simple. Maximizing Attack allows it to deal as much damage as possible - this is particularly important as its offensive prowess is rather lackluster. Maximum Speed allows it to speedtie with a Dragon Danced Salamence at worst. Even with no investment in bulk, Jirachi's naturally decent HP and Defenses, coupled with its resistances, allow it to absorb most resisted hits with ease.</p>

<p>Jirachi is best fitted on a team that requires the use of all of its qualities, which are revenging both Swords Dance and Dragon Dance Rayquaza, Nasty Plot Darkrai, Calm Mind Mewtwo, and Latias and Latios. It should not have a team built around it, but it will appreciate the partnership of several Pokemon. Stealth Rock support is required so that it can land a clean OHKO on Rayquaza with Ice Punch, as well as 2HKOing Darkrai with Iron Head. Groudon, Tyranitar, and Deoxys-S are all excellent choices for that role. Spikes support is highly appreciated as well and it works extremely well in tandem with U-turn. Deoxys-S, Forretress, and Skarmory can provide the Spikes support. The last two can also aid Jirachi in taking Dragon-type attacks, as Jirachi lacks recovery and power, and thus can not be entirely relied on all the time on taking those powerful blows.</p>

<p>As Jirachi fulfills the role of a revenge killer as well as a Steel-type, it makes fitting Latias and Latios easier on your team. Both of these Pokemon cover up all of Jirachi's weaknesses, while Jirachi resists their Dragon- and Ice- type weaknesses. Giratina-O is in a similar boat. Choice Scarf Jirachi can often land a U-turn on the likes of Mewtwo, Latias, and Latios as they fire attacks that threatens Jirachi, such as Thunder or Flamethrower (or in the latter two's case, Hidden Power Fire), only to have Giratina-O to absorb the ineffective hit instead. Giratina-O can then finish the remains of their HP with Shadow Sneak. For this tactic to have the most success, however, entry hazards are absolutely necessary, and Giratina-O preserves them thanks to its immunity to Rapid Spin.</p>

<p>As mentioned before, Choice Scarf Jirachi lacks recovery and power, and repeated Dragon-type attacks from the likes of Dialga and Palkia will wear it down. Furthermore, Jirachi's weakness to Fire-type attacks means that it can be OHKOed if it switches in incorrectly. A backup Steel-type Pokemon is appreciated. Heatran in particular gets a nod as it can absorb Fire-type attacks that are aimed at Jirachi. The aforementioned Skarmory also help. Skarmory may have troubles with Mewtwo, Latias, and Latios, which Jirachi can cover to an extent, while Skarmory's immunity to Earthquake allows it to handle Garchomp and Groudon. Although Tyranitar is not a Steel-type Pokemon, its resistance to Fire-type attacks and boosted Special Defense grants it the ability to take on special Dragon-type attacks with moderate ease.</p>
 
Thunder for AC on the main set with a neutral nature. Deters opposing Kyogre (and Palkia to a lesser extent) from switching in and maiming you with boosted Water attacks. It's not really the damage that's significant really, its doing decent damage AND that sexy 60% paralysis. Body Slam does pitiful damage to them :(
 
Thunder for AC on the main set with a neutral nature. Deters opposing Kyogre (and Palkia to a lesser extent) from switching in and maiming you with boosted Water attacks. It's not really the damage that's significant really, its doing decent damage AND that sexy 60% paralysis. Body Slam does pitiful damage to them :(
236 Atk vs 276 Def & 321 HP (120 Base Power): 74 - 88 (23.05% - 27.41%) that's a thunder to Palkia, which unless you get the paralysis is doing pathetic damage. Basically you're relying on 60% chance. 40% is still decent possible for a non paralysis. Paralyzing ghosts which is literally giratina-o seems really specific and jirachi won't take much from hp fire in the rain especially with that spread and wish.
 
236 Atk vs 276 Def & 321 HP (120 Base Power): 74 - 88 (23.05% - 27.41%) that's a thunder to Palkia, which unless you get the paralysis is doing pathetic damage. Basically you're relying on 30% chance.
60% paralysis chance. Plus you do a nice 32-38% to 252 HP Kyogre. This is especially important against Specs Ogre, who otherwise has a field day with you and forces a switch-in to eat a 150 BP Water Spout. It's comparable to Body Slam, except you trade paralyzing Groudon and Garchomp for paralyzing ghosts. Surely Garchomp is more important to paralyze, but that's why it'd be AC instead of a slash.
 
Can someone comment, approve or give advice to this set please? Can someone comment or improve the EV spread on the sub wave set as well?
 
Really, Thunder I found useful since Jirachi attracts Kyogre like a magnet and it at least annoys Kyogre from coming in. Garchomp is much easier to wall than the whale. AC mention.
 

firecape

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Really, Thunder I found useful since Jirachi attracts Kyogre like a magnet and it at least annoys Kyogre from coming in. Garchomp is much easier to wall than the whale. AC mention.
On the contrary, I believe Kyogre is much easier to wall. Latias, Ludicolo, Quagsire, Palkia, ect. all can handle Kyogre really well; nothing besides lolBronzong and Skarmory can effectively "wall" SD Garchomp. Even then, Skarmory must watch out for Fire Fang. I do agree with Thunder getting an AC or OO mention though- it all depends on what your team needs in my opinion.
 
Duuuuuude. Come on... Ludi and Quagsire are rare as fuck, Palkia gets one switch in against specs.

SD Garchomp is revenge killed by half the Metagame and has a 100% counter in Lugia.
 
Can I have some thoughts on the sub wave EV spread? Sjould it be more simple and is there a way to improve it?
 

shrang

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-EVs allow 404 subs, outrun minimal speed invest 100s, low speed 90s (ho-oh)
There are very few minimum speed base 100s, the only one being specially defensive Jirachi, who can't do crap to you. Just put the 16 Speed EVs into attack or bulk, IMO, and don't bother about speed creep.
 
Maybe 4 then just for the sake of it? What about low speed 90s? Although I do think that I should probs reduce speed creep. Is 252HP / 100 Atk / 156 SDef good?
 

Jibaku

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IMO Subflinch should have 244 Speed (stat), to outrun max Speed ttar, as it is the next benchmark and Jirachi doesn't need to invest much. For those of you wondering how common +Speed ttar is
| Tyranitar | Nature | Jolly | 19.8 |
| Tyranitar | Nature | Hasty | 17.3 |

(Though the former is usually Scarfed, but still)
 

firecape

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Duuuuuude. Come on... Ludi and Quagsire are rare as fuck, Palkia gets one switch in against specs.
By you're own arguement "Skarmory and Bronzong are rare as fuck". Now Garchomp has no counters. And Kyogre has to switch into Stealth Rock twice too, so....

SD Garchomp is revenge killed by half the Metagame and has a 100% counter in Lugia.
Let's see the Pokemon that outspeed Garchomp and are actually used:

-Darkrai: Can't OHKO Garchomp with anything, has to rely on Dark Void which you can have something else take.

Dialga- It has to have Choice Scarf (obviously), and then its Steel-type/Wobbuffet bait. It also loses if Garchomp has Haban.

Garchomp- its a tie (obviously). If it has Scarf Haban protects you and you kill it, but if its Haban Chomp as well its a tie. If you have LO you lose.

ScarfKyogre- you lose

Latias- If you have Haban you win, if not you lose.

Latios- You lose to DM, if they have it, otherwise Haban will save you; generally a loss.

Lugia- it takes 46.4% - 54.8% from LO Outrage at +2 (loss), and 35.6% - 42.1% from non LO; 2HKO with SR both cases. Of course, Lugia has Roost, but its not like it just shrugs off those attacks. (all of them assume Reflect)

Mewtwo- It needs Ice Beam, but otherwise all it can do is Selfdestruct

Palkia- if you have Haban you win, it needs to have a Scarf to even pose a threat.

These are all the Pokemon that "counter" SD Garchomp that aren't "rare as fuck". However, notice that every single one of them, bar opposing Haban Chomp, falls with paralysis support and LO. In addition, a large number are foiled by Haban. Also, this wasn't your original arguement. Your original arguement was not "a bunch of things can revenge Garchomp", it was that "Garchomp is much easier to wall than the whale". I don't see any of these faster Pokemon walling him, bar maybe Lugia, who doesn't exactly like taking this much damage. This thread's purpose isn't to argue which one is more counterable though; I actually agreed with a mention of Thunder -_-.
 
I have a feeling the 32 will end up being labeled as speed creep, and if it a paralysis minded set, they might be better invested in bulk anyway.
 

shrang

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It's not speed creep, it outspeeds Jolly Tyranitar. It's not like TTar can just add another 4 EVs on, you know.
 

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