1437

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by q p, Dec 2, 2012.

  1. q p

    q p Why is he so perfect?
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2012
    Messages:
    51
    - 1437 -
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    Hii, Smogon.~
    I’ve been playing competitive Pokemon on and off for quite a while now and been lurking this forum for almost as long. With the Genesect vote coming up I figured it might be time to finally get involved and make my first post, but in the end I managed to miss the deadline somehow. So today, instead of a simple vote, I present you my first RMT.
    The team at hand can best be summed up as rain balance built around Choice Scarf Keldeo. It was created during the Genesect suspect test and designed to work well in the current OU metagame as well as on the suspect ladder without Genesect. While it is neither the most elaborate nor original team it got the job done and definitely was fun to use.
    Peaks & such (open)

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    Team building (open)
    Right off the bat I knew I wanted to build around one of the most undeservedly underused Pokemon there is, Keldeo. It’s funny, everyone knows Keldeo is one of the best sweepers in the tier, but somehow its usage stats just don’t reflect it. I also knew I was looking for a dedicated ladder team. Something solid that just works nothing fancy.
    [​IMG]

    Immediately afterwards three obvious choices sprang to mind. Politoed to boost the power of Keldeo’s Hydro Pump/ Surf to astronomical levels, Tyranitar to trap some of Keldeo’s main counters like Latias and Celebi or Deoxys-D since Keldeo seemed like a great fit for Deoxys+5. Power. Astronomical levels. Politoed.
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Although two members were already set in stone at this point all doors were still open to me. I wasn’t certain where to go with the team, but since I had been using a lot hyperoffensive teams lately and was sort of sick of them simply adding another sweeper this early on was out of the picture. So, what do you do when uncertainty strikes and the only guiding principle is “no sweeper”? Right, Skarmbliss. Okay, Skarmchan, whatever.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    With the defensive backbone and hazard core of my team all set it was time to flesh out the whole thing. Jirachi was added as a second Steel type for good measure. I originally planned to use a specially defensive support set to aid Keldeo and free up a moveslot on Chansey.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Due to its superb synergy with Jirachi and Keldeo and its great versatility double setup Thundurus-T became the team’s original sixth member. At this point I felt like I desperately needed a way to keep hazards of the field so Chansey was dropped in favor of Tentacruel. At the same time Skarmory had to go to make place for Ferrothorn to maintain some defensive synergy.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    At this point the team did…okay. That was until I realized it was weak to…everything, really. Latias took Thundurus-T’s place to check a plethora of threats like Keldeo and Terrakion. Furthermore Chansey got her place on the team back. While Tentacruel performed admirably it simply couldn’t check some specific threats Chansey could easily deal with. Ferrothorn however proved its worth and received a permanent position on the team.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    As per suggestion of ganj4lF and dragonuser Tentacruel got its spot on the team back. While it has to be played a little more carefully than Chansey it is still a very solid check to most special attackers in the metagame. Moreover it completely fixes the team's weakness to entry hazards and unlike Chansey isn't setup bait for anything but a select few threats.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Changes in bold
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    Politoed (M) @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spd
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Scald
    - Toxic
    - Perish Song
    - Rest
    First off we have a real team player. While Politoed’s primary role is of course to set up rain he also acts as a secondary physical wall to fall back on and brings some invaluable utility moves to the table. Scald is a standard on bulky Politoed for good reason. Should it fail to burn for once Toxic provides a more reliable source of residual damage and allows Politoed to wear down some of his common switch-ins. Ideally he’ll also pave the way for Keldeo by softening up some of his checks/ counters like Jellicent and Latias. Perish Song serves as a panic button, a pseudo-phazing move and has saved me from getting revenge swept by my opponent’s last Pokemon countless times. ChestoRest was chosen over Protect and Leftovers since I tend to play Politoed quite recklessly and thus a reliable way to instantly regain lost health is a must. It also makes for some nice mindgames. Not only can I sometimes bluff an offensive set, but sometimes it’ll even help me to win the weather war since some players tend to play their weather inducers rather carelessly when Politoed is seemingly on his last legs. Politoed’s EVs should hopefully allow him to always outspeed opposing defensive Politoed as well as other Pokemon that might try to speed creep him such as Skarmory, Choice Band Tyranitar and most importantly Jellicent.

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    Tentacruel (M) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 SDef / 16 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Scald
    - Toxic
    - Substitute
    - Rapid Spin
    After acting as a stand-in a few times Tentacruel finally got a permanent position on the team. Even though Chansey’s abilities to sponge just about any special attack in the game with impunity and safely absorb status will be sorely missed Tentacruel was just too good to pass up. As per suggestion of ganj4lF I opted for a SubToxic set. Substitute is the crux of the set. It keeps Tentacruel safe from status conditions or damage, greatly eases prediction and oftentimes grants Tentacruel a free turn, even against his usual counters. This free turn can not only be used to safely spin away entry hazards, but Toxic and Scald also allow Tentacruel to work as a makeshift wallbreaker and rack up residual damage on the opposing team. Tentacruel obviously has to be played a lot more carefully than Chansey, but it is still a rock-solid special wall and does a lot of work for the team.

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    Ferrothorn (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SDef
    Relaxed Nature
    - Power Whip
    - Leech Seed
    - Stealth Rock
    - Spikes
    This thorny…thing right here is the second part of my team’s defensive core. Ferrothorn’s role on the team is rather simple. First and foremost he serves as my primary physical wall. Outside of that he is all about residual damage. Whether he sets up Stealth Rock, Spikes, hits a switch-in with Leech Seed or simply takes an attack, he chips away at the opposing Pokemon’s health thus making the job of my sweepers a whole lot easier. Lastly Power Whip is a generic STAB move and prevents him from becoming setup fodder. There really isn’t much that can be said about Ferrothorn and you all know how he works, but he plays a vital role in stopping a handful of specific threats like Kingdra from outright sweeping my team.

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    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Thunder
    - Psyshock
    - Substitute
    - Calm Mind
    Okay, enough with sitting ducks, Taunt bait and setup fodder. This little pixie packs a real punch. SubCM is such an amazing set and why it isn’t used more is beyond me. Then again the sets relatively rarity probably is a big factor in why it works so well. Very few people pack a direct counter to it. The sheer amount of clean sweeps Jirachi gets is amazing. There is virtually nothing that can switch into it without risking to be severely crippled. With enough sacrifices to the RNG gods it can sometimes even beat its own (would-be) counters. To be honest I’ve lost count of how many times this beast has grasped victory from the jaws of defeat. Calm Mind is a given and a big part of what allows Jirachi to sweep in the first place. Substitute serves to block status and non-damaging moves such as Leech Seed or Pain Split, making Jirachi my best answer to opposing Ferrothorn. It also makes prediction a whole lot easier and can be used to fish for full paralysis in a pinch. Thunder is Jirachi’s go-to-move. It hits hard, has decent coverage and a great secondary effect. What more could you ask for? Finally Psyshock helps Jirachi to win Calm Mind battles and enables it to actually hurt the pink blobs by effectively turning it into a mixed attacker. I originally ran Water Pulse, but after getting walked over by Breloom and Toxicroak for the umpteenth time I switched to Psyshock and never looked back.

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    Latias (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Draco Meteor
    - Surf
    - Psyshock
    - Recover
    Latias was originally added to the team as some sort of band-aid fix to patch up some gaping holes, but quickly became my MVP. It is amazing how much work she does for the team. Latias is my only real check to Breloom, Terrakion and Keldeo. My only Fighting resist even. Of course those aren’t the only threats Latias checks. She has an amazing matchup against a lot of common team archetypes and is a great defensive pivot in general. Latias pretty much acts as my safety net. I don’t know what to lead with? Latias. No idea what move my opponent will use next? Latias. Team getting styled on by Volt-turn? Latias. But while Latias was added for her defensive qualities she is still a force to be reckoned with. Draco Meteor hits like a truck, Psyshock effectively makes her a mixed sweeper and Surf rounds up her coverage with a nice spamable pseudo-STAB move. Yes, Latias is not only the team’s defensive lynchpin, but also the closest thing to a mid-game sweeper or wallbreaker I have. If everything goes according to plan (it never does) Latias will almost always be the first offensive Pokemon I bring out, while Jirachi and Keldeo stay on the sidelines until the opposing team is sufficiently weakened. I can not stress enough how much the team relies on Latias, losing her too early usually results in extremely tough matches. In my opinion Latias is easily one of the most underrated Pokemon in the entire OU metagame and I for one am glad she has been getting more popular lately.

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    Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Surf
    - Secret Sword
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    If Latias isn’t the most criminally underused Pokemon in the metagame then it has to be Keldeo. Keldeo is the reason this team exists and meant to be a true late-game sweeper. By the time he enters the field the opposing team should hopefully be on its last legs already and allow for a clean sweep. In reality however Keldeo frequently has to serve as a revenge killer. While this wasn’t his intended role he performs admirably at it. With Keldeo being one of the fastest Choice Scarf users in the tier and sporting great coverage it is hard to sweep right past it. Thanks to rain effectively doubling its STAB bonus Hydro Pump acts as a magnificent sweeping tool. Surf provides a slightly less powerful but more reliable fallback for when Keldeo absolutely needs to hit. Secret Sword allows him to put dents into special walls like the pink blobs and is the only move on my team that can deal any significant amount of immediate damage to Ferrothorn. Hidden Power Ice rounds up his coverage and prevents dragons from getting out of hand.


    Importable (open)

    Current team

    Politoed (M) @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spd
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Scald
    - Toxic
    - Perish Song
    - Rest

    Tentacruel (M) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 SDef / 16 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 SAtk
    - Scald
    - Toxic
    - Substitute
    - Rapid Spin

    Ferrothorn (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SDef
    Relaxed Nature
    - Power Whip
    - Leech Seed
    - Stealth Rock
    - Spikes

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Thunder
    - Psyshock
    - Substitute
    - Calm Mind

    1437 (Latias) (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Draco Meteor
    - Surf
    - Psyshock
    - Recover

    Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Surf
    - Secret Sword
    - Hidden Power [Ice]



    Original team

    Politoed (M) @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spd
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Scald
    - Toxic
    - Perish Song
    - Rest

    Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Seismic Toss
    - Softboiled
    - Thunder Wave
    - Stealth Rock

    Ferrothorn (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SDef
    Relaxed Nature
    - Power Whip
    - Leech Seed
    - Protect
    - Spikes

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Thunder
    - Psyshock
    - Substitute
    - Calm Mind

    1437 (Latias) (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Draco Meteor
    - Surf
    - Psyshock
    - Recover

    Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Surf
    - Secret Sword
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Threats & known problems (open)

    [​IMG] - Terrakion
    Terrakion has a hard time switching in against any of my Pokemon, but once it is on the field I'm in deep shit. Latias does okay against most sets, but is far from a safe counter. Keldeo can revenge kill some sets or at least scare them away, but doesn’t really solve the problem either. SubSalac and double dance in particular scare me shitless.
    [​IMG][​IMG] - Breloom & Toxicroak
    Different Pokemon, same problem. Both of them can easily come in on a good portion of my team, set up and are extremely hard to stop if Latias and Jirachi are weakened already. To be perfectly honest my fear for them might originate from when I still used Water Pulse instead of Psyshock on Jirachi and Latias was my only real counter. As long as I keep Jirachi or Latias in good health and don't mispredict too badly (Spore/ Swords Dance) they are somewhat manageable.
    [​IMG][​IMG] - Celebi & bulky Grass types in general
    While the omnipresent Ferrothorn is already a tough nut to crack it can usually be played around somehow. Defensive Celebi on the other hand…well, I just lose and that’s it. Luckily it doesn’t seem to see all that much usage anymore. ​
    [​IMG][​IMG] - Momentum
    My team isn’t very fast and admittedly rather easy to pressure. A simple Volt-turn core in the hands of a skilled player can cause it some serious trouble. It starts at “Oh god, what do I lead with?” and then goes downhill from there. If I somehow fail to set up entry hazards my best bet is catching something on the switch with Latias or Keldeo. This isn't the most dire threat and can usually be handled with some smart play, but I felt like it still deserved to be mentioned.


    So, that's my team. Thank you for reading! I'm looking forward to any feedback, rates, questions, criticism or concerns you may have.
    Feel free to use the team if you like it. Test it, fix it, tear it apart, do whatever you want with it.~

    Pokemon sprites from Pokecheck. Item sprites from Serebii.
    I'm not a native speaker, feel free to point out any grammatical mistakes and I'll fix them ASAP.

    Oh god, I bet I forgot something really important. >-<;;;

    Bedschibaer likes this.
  2. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    771
    Hey, great team you have there, and I loved the presentation too. Unfortunately, most of the things you noted in the "known threats" sections are correct, and while you can play around most of them somehow, Celebi is really a bitch, especially Specially Defensive with Perish Song, which you can't realistically hax with Jirachi, and touch with anything else. However your team is hard to modify since everything already has a nice and well defined role. To me, the most replaceable member seems Jirachi (don't get me wrong, I absolutely adore that set, but removing everything else open much bigger holes in your team). Scizor (a bulky SD one) can take on Celebi, retain the sweeping prowess of Jirachi (although it's a quite different poke) and benefit from Rain since its Fire weakness is lowered. It will also help against Toxicroak and Breloom, since its priority will hurt even if unboosted, and 252+ LO Mach Punch is not even a 2HKO without hazards. It also helps against Terrakion for obvious reasons. It can't do much to solve your VoltTurn problem, but I think that should be manageable anyway and by far not the biggest between the weaknesses you listed.

    Scizor (open)
    [​IMG]
    Scizor @ Leftovers / Metal Coat | Technician
    Adamant | 252 HP / 40 Atk / 216 SpD
    - Roost
    - Swords Dance
    - Bullet Punch
    - Bug Bite


    I'd probably also test a Tentacruel in place on Chansey, putting SR onto Ferrothorn. The only apparent weakness it opens up is Tornadus-T, but a Specially Defensive Tentacruel doesn't give a fuck about it as it's not even 2HKO'd without factoring Rain Dish. However you should playtest it a bit, since I'm not 100% sure it'll work as intended. The set I'm thinking of is a standard Cruel set but with defensive EVs moved into SpD; obviously it won't tank any physical attack, but that wasn't Blissey's function in the first place, and resistance to Superpower / U-Turn ensure that it doesn't take too much damage from those.

    Hope I helped. Good luck.
  3. Eranu

    Eranu

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2011
    Messages:
    382
    Hey, nice team.

    On such a defensive team as yours is entry hazards are usually the biggest problem as you stated yourself. A possible solution could be running Forretress > Ferrothorn. Forretress allows you to still get spikes up, while also being able to spin hazards away. Forretress does well as a physicall wall too. Chansey can still tank Volt Switches and Jirachi can tank Draco Meteors. As for Kingdra, it's really uncommon. While, if you face it Keldeo/Jirachi can both take a hit and either bait it into Outrage or paralyze it with Thunder. Forretress also is a decent Terrakion check, OHKOing it with Gyro Ball after a Close Combat, while if Terrakion is a Life Orb/Choice Band set you can just switch to Latias to out speed and KO it with Psyshock. For the VoltTurn problem, as long as you manage to get up Stealth Rocks the combination of Forretress + Chansey should be able to deal with it. Once Rotom-w is weakened enough, you can just switch in Keldeo vs Scizor's U-turn and KO Rotom-w with Secret Sword. I don't really see how Breloom + Toxicroak are a problem. You should just play safe with Latias and Jirachi and sleep fodder something. Both Jirachi and Latias out speed both Breloom and Toxicroak. Jirachi just has to watch out for Mach Punch, but as long as you safe Latias that shouldn't be a problem. You're right about your weakness to Ferrothorn and Celebi, with Ferrothorn as the biggest threat. Latias can be seen as a check to Celebi, but if Celebi lives a Draco it can just Recover and wall Latias. A simple change can solve the Celebi problem: Toxic > Thunder Wave on Chansey. This way you can just switch into it with Chansey and wall it till it is eventually worn down by Toxic. Ferrothorn is a bigger problem. The only real way you have of dealing with it is Keldeo's Secret Sword. Nothing but a major change can really cure you of your Ferrothorn weakness, but a big change wouldn't be worth it. I suggest that when you see a Ferrothorn you just switch in Forretress and try to find an opportunity to switch in Keldeo from there, on for example a Leech Seed. One last change I'd recommend is, now that you don't have Ferrothorn anymore, you might be better off changing Wish > Substitute on Jirachi. Jirachi will now take the majority of Draco Meteors, while you had Ferrothorn before that to sponge them and recover back Hp with Leech Seed. Now that you have Wish, Jirachi can do the same. Wish is also nice for Keldeo, since it has to switch into Leech Seeds. Hope I helped. I'd like to complement you on your presentation too. It makes it easier to rate and on top of that makes it looks nice ;). Good luck !

    ~Sets:

    Show Hide
    Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Gyro Ball
    - Spikes
    - Volt Switch
    - Rapid Spin
  4. q p

    q p Why is he so perfect?
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2012
    Messages:
    51
    Hey, ganj4lF.

    Thanks for the rate. How I didn't think of Scizor myself is beyond me, it looks like it will fit really well. I'll definitely give it a try.

    As far as Tentacruel is concerned, I've pretty much been switching back and forth between it and Chansey. Tentacruel obviously helps with hazards and isn't complete setup fodder like Chansey. On the other hand it leaves me wide open to a handful of special sweepers. Think along the lines of Volcarona, Thundurus-T, some Latios sets or even Starmie. Of course I can usually play around them somehow, but Chansey is just a nice, safe surefire counter that I'm a little relucant to replace her. I'll definitely keep Tentacruel in mind though.

    Hey there, Eranu.

    Forretress looks cool, I'll definitely test it. Volt Switch in particular look appealing since having switch advantage for once would be a godsend.

    As for my problem with Celebi and Ferrothorn, I usually play around Ferrothorn by either forcing it to repeatedly switch into hazards, fishing for a burn with Scald or preferably using it as setup fodder for Jirachi. The problem with Celebi is that it can simply shrug of status moves, has access to instant recovery and just...doesn't die. Anyway, since using Jirachi against Ferrothorn usually works rather well I'd like to keep Substitute. Chansey and Forretress should hopefully be enough to sponge some Draco Meteors. Toxic on Chansey looks like it might alleviate the problem a little and will definitely be tested.

    Thank you for your rate, much appreciated.


    I'll also update my threat list, kind of rushed it yesterday and probably made a bigger deal out of Volt Switch, Breloom and Toxicroak than they actually are.
  5. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    771
    Try running the Toxic Staller, 252 HP / 240 (Sp)Def / 16 Spe Timid with Sub | Toxic | Scald | Spin; Sub on the switch, Rain Dish will heal the HP lost, Toxic the possible threat, or just Scald Volcarona, and Spin only when necessary, safely behind your Sub. That set is hardly a set up bait for anything (well apart from weird things like Dragonite + Lum + Substitute), but it's quite rare, and you should be fast enough to cripple many things before they can try and set up.
  6. dragonuser

    dragonuser Today, tomorrow, and always with a frozen heart
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion
    Moderator

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    Messages:
    1,960
    Hey there,

    This is a pretty solid defensive team, but I do see way it can be improved. So in my opinion, every defensive team needs a spinner in this metagame (and in general). It helps immensely vs fast paced hazard stacking teams, and helps to keep your walls healthy. So like Gan4lf suggested, I would try a Tentacruel > Chansey. Tentacruel gives you spin, and the loss of Chansey isnt too huge. Tentacruel checks Volcarona (so does Scarf Keldeo), can setup Toxic Spikes (to help wear down Pokemon like Celebi), and the other threats you mentioned that Chansey covers can be handled by the rest of your team. With the loss of Chansey, Ferrothorn should use Stealth Rock > Protect, so you maintain hazard laying ability. I would also recommend Wish > Substitute on Jirachi. Wish CM Rachi is a fantastic sweeper in its own right, but also provides incredible support for your team. A lot of your team lacks reliable recovery, so Wish passing can really help keep you healthy. Wish also makes Jirachi a great Tornadus-T counter, who could otherwise wear down Jirachi slowly. Anyways, cool team and gl.

    tldr:
    Chansey -----> Tentacruel
    Protect -----> Stealth Rock on Ferrothorn
    Substitute -----> Wish on Jirachi
  7. q p

    q p Why is he so perfect?
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Hi, dragonuser.

    Thanks for your rate. I finally had some time to play some matches today. Since the suggestion to use Tentacruel in place of Chansey was quite common (on- and off-site) it was the first thing I tested. While Tentacruel may be a little...harder to use than Chansey it has been working great so far. Thanks again to everyone who suggested it. :3

    Your advice to run Stealth Rock on Ferrothorn seems logical and has been implemented already. I am however still on the fence about giving up Substitute on Jirachi. Wish is cool and all and has helped a lot so far, but Substitute outright wins games sometimes. I'll play around with both a bit more when I have the time.

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