3v3 Singles Metagame Discussion Thread [The Pentagon is back!!]

I want to say this: there are some thing in Showdown (particularly in Battle Spot) that make the game not fun at all.

1.- There are some people using a Liepard with assist and prankster as ability that uses this move only to turn it to spore. First they use this move to sleep the opponent, then use swagger to confuse them so the pokemon opponent kill himself and when the opponent is weak use foul play... That's basically the strategy. There's no fun in this kind of battle.

2.- People use hidden power too freely. I mean, if you want your pokemon have a specific hidden power you need to have your IVs specifically distributed so you can that specific hidden power. Instead of that, in showdown, you put your pokemon the hidden power you want without a care... I still can accept than a normal pokemon can use freely this hidden power (still disagree, but it have more sense) since you can hatch them so the have the correct IVs for that... but I don't know how many times I found a Thundurus with hidden power ice, move that destroy my Garchomp and destroy also many possibles strategies against this Pokemon.

That make the game not fun at all. It lose balance this way. It is hard enough to play against a Talonflame or a Mega-Kangaskhan who are monster that need a specific strategy (actually, I had to sell my soul and put in my team a Mega-Kangaskhan) and I accept it... but I can't accept the Liepard strategy and the Hidden Power overuse because it destroy the game...
 

Feliburn

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I want to say this: there are some thing in Showdown (particularly in Battle Spot) that make the game not fun at all.

1.- There are some people using a Liepard with assist and prankster as ability that uses this move only to turn it to spore. First they use this move to sleep the opponent, then use swagger to confuse them so the pokemon opponent kill himself and when the opponent is weak use foul play... That's basically the strategy. There's no fun in this kind of battle.

2.- People use hidden power too freely. I mean, if you want your pokemon have a specific hidden power you need to have your IVs specifically distributed so you can that specific hidden power. Instead of that, in showdown, you put your pokemon the hidden power you want without a care... I still can accept than a normal pokemon can use freely this hidden power (still disagree, but it have more sense) since you can hatch them so the have the correct IVs for that... but I don't know how many times I found a Thundurus with hidden power ice, move that destroy my Garchomp and destroy also many possibles strategies against this Pokemon.

That make the game not fun at all. It lose balance this way. It is hard enough to play against a Talonflame or a Mega-Kangaskhan who are monster that need a specific strategy (actually, I had to sell my soul and put in my team a Mega-Kangaskhan) and I accept it... but I can't accept the Liepard strategy and the Hidden Power overuse because it destroy the game...
IVs are still affected depending on the Hidden Power you run in PS! lol, and that liepard strategy is an actual set, annoying, but I've seen it before; it is possible to lock Spore on Assist, if your opponent has Spore + moves not usable by Assist, then the hated Swagger + Foul Play, those are dumb gimmick strategies you have to get past in order to win.
 
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Hulavuta

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I want to say this: there are some thing in Showdown (particularly in Battle Spot) that make the game not fun at all.

1.- There are some people using a Liepard with assist and prankster as ability that uses this move only to turn it to spore. First they use this move to sleep the opponent, then use swagger to confuse them so the pokemon opponent kill himself and when the opponent is weak use foul play... That's basically the strategy. There's no fun in this kind of battle.

2.- People use hidden power too freely. I mean, if you want your pokemon have a specific hidden power you need to have your IVs specifically distributed so you can that specific hidden power. Instead of that, in showdown, you put your pokemon the hidden power you want without a care... I still can accept than a normal pokemon can use freely this hidden power (still disagree, but it have more sense) since you can hatch them so the have the correct IVs for that... but I don't know how many times I found a Thundurus with hidden power ice, move that destroy my Garchomp and destroy also many possibles strategies against this Pokemon.

That make the game not fun at all. It lose balance this way. It is hard enough to play against a Talonflame or a Mega-Kangaskhan who are monster that need a specific strategy (actually, I had to sell my soul and put in my team a Mega-Kangaskhan) and I accept it... but I can't accept the Liepard strategy and the Hidden Power overuse because it destroy the game...
Things are a little bit different on Showdown than on the real ladder; Liepard does carry this set but it's not quite as common. There are a lot of stupid gimmick sets but sometimes I think it's more effective to build an overall solid team and just take those silly losses when they come. When you look at the top ranking players, they have a win/loss ratio of something around 200-100 or so. So being successful is more about just getting a lot of wins, but not necessarily few losses.

As for Hidden Power though, pretty much all Pokemon that need to use a Hidden Power will have that Hidden Power on the real ladder. People will just breed or soft-reset until they get it. In pretty much any format, you should just assume that your opponent is going to have Hidden Power, whether it's in-game or not. You should just account for it when you're thinking of what counters what. It's really not much different than thinking "Thundurus has access to Ice Beam" and thinking of that move just like any other move. Hidden Power does not really change the game any more than any other move changes the game, in all honesty. It's something you gotta prepare for just like everything else.

As for Talonflame and Kangaskhan, there's honestly nothing wrong with "caving" and using the best Pokemon to win. The goal of the game is to win and nobody really cares if you won using bad Pokemon or good ones. The only thing really considered "dishonorable" are luck-based strategies like Confusion and OHKO moves but even then it's not really that big of a deal because people just accept that shit happens (although if you're playing on PS you will get some rage in the chat). But if anyone gives you trouble because you beat them using the best Pokemon, they're just unnecessarily handicapping themselves and salty for losing.
 
Things are a little bit different on Showdown than on the real ladder; Liepard does carry this set but it's not quite as common. There are a lot of stupid gimmick sets but sometimes I think it's more effective to build an overall solid team and just take those silly losses when they come. When you look at the top ranking players, they have a win/loss ratio of something around 200-100 or so. So being successful is more about just getting a lot of wins, but not necessarily few losses.

As for Hidden Power though, pretty much all Pokemon that need to use a Hidden Power will have that Hidden Power on the real ladder. People will just breed or soft-reset until they get it. In pretty much any format, you should just assume that your opponent is going to have Hidden Power, whether it's in-game or not. You should just account for it when you're thinking of what counters what. It's really not much different than thinking "Thundurus has access to Ice Beam" and thinking of that move just like any other move. Hidden Power does not really change the game any more than any other move changes the game, in all honesty. It's something you gotta prepare for just like everything else.

As for Talonflame and Kangaskhan, there's honestly nothing wrong with "caving" and using the best Pokemon to win. The goal of the game is to win and nobody really cares if you won using bad Pokemon or good ones. The only thing really considered "dishonorable" are luck-based strategies like Confusion and OHKO moves but even then it's not really that big of a deal because people just accept that shit happens (although if you're playing on PS you will get some rage in the chat). But if anyone gives you trouble because you beat them using the best Pokemon, they're just unnecessarily handicapping themselves and salty for losing.
So basically (if I understand), I just have to accept the things as they are... Sorry, but I just can't.
Look, I understand your point, but I have to disagree. I just said what I wanted to say.
I don't want to start a discussion so I end up things here. I'm not going to stop playing for that, but it makes the competitive game less enjoyable in my opinion.
 

Hulavuta

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So basically (if I understand), I just have to accept the things as they are... Sorry, but I just can't.
Look, I understand your point, but I have to disagree. I just said what I wanted to say.
I don't want to start a discussion so I end up things here. I'm not going to stop playing for that, but it makes the competitive game less enjoyable in my opinion.
You can always play by Smogon rules if these things are too much for you as most of them are banned in Smogon formats. But if you continue to play you kind of are accepting it even if you still don't like it (which is the case for all of us, none of us really like it). The only thing I will defend is Hidden Power, because even in-game almost every player will have it.

Regardless, this is a discussion thread; it is in the title. You're allowed to rant here but you should expect for people to respond. These are pretty legitimate points for conversation anyway! I hope you don't feel too antagonized, we're just discussing like it says in the title. :)
 
So basically (if I understand), I just have to accept the things as they are... Sorry, but I just can't.
Look, I understand your point, but I have to disagree. I just said what I wanted to say.
I don't want to start a discussion so I end up things here. I'm not going to stop playing for that, but it makes the competitive game less enjoyable in my opinion.
There are counters and tricks to win to strategys like prankster liepard. One of them is using a pokemon with a lot of defense and rocky helmet attached to it (and possibly an ability like rough skin or iron barbs as garchomp and ferrothorn have). The damage you get from hitting yourself in confusion and also the damage of foul play will be minimal cause of your high base defense stat, and every time liepard uses foul play the poor cat will lose 12,5 (or even 25%) of her health.

Another check to swagplay liepard is taunt whimsicott or taunt thundurus, who are also quite viable pokemon. They both have acces to prankster and a higher speed stat then liepard, so can taunt liepard before it is able to use assist or swagger and then the only thing liepard can do is use his weak foul play.
 

cant say

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I came here just to suggest Thundurus but it seems freekhoorn beat me to it. Not only is it a genuinely good Pokemon in the format, but it totally counters those stupid strategies. I would definitely recommend using it if you haven't tried yet. And yes, running HP Ice is mandatory on it (and other legends that need HP) so just soft reset for it. In fact, SRing for Hidden Power types is really easy, the only thing that's hard is getting the flawless spreads, but you can often settle for 'close enough' lol (I'm talking IVs of at least 20+ in non-perfect stats)

edit to avoid double post:

I know the new season has only been going for a day but the usage statistics are in and they look pretty much exactly the same as they finished, Kangaskhan has switched places with Gengar but everything else is in the same spot excerpt....

...Cresselia isn't in the top 12 anymore! And it's been replaced by Thundurus (sitting in 11th). I remember seeing him there at some stage a while ago but I can't remember when, I'd need to go back through the old seasons and see, but could this mean anything? I don't actually see Thundy that much. What's he being used for that's causing his usage to rise? I suppose Suicune usage has been rising quite a bit and he handles that pretty well, as well as stopping the aforementioned SwagPlay strats. I might have to try and fit him into my team permanently
 
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Lol! Just talking about thundurus and there it is! I think its a strong check to suicune as it can prankster taunt it to stop the calm minds and then can deal a lot of damage with its electric stab. It is a good pokemon especially in this fast meta cause prankster t-wave can slow down a lot of pokemon! In OU it almost got a suspect test in the XY meta if i recall correctly.
 

DragonWhale

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Try using it first and get a feel for how it fares in the meta before posting, or else there's nothing to discuss about.

For one thing having zero Talonflame switch-ins is not a really great start, but this type of discussion belongs in the RMT thread.
 

cant say

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Have you used the team at all or is it just theory that you think you won't lose? What do you like about those Pokemon in particular? Why did you choose them in the first place? What are their sets? What is so unbeatable about them? Just posting a bunch of shiny gifs of them doesn't provide much to talk about..

Like DragonWhale already said, any team with Talonflame will walk all over you, and since it's the 4th most used Pokemon in Battle Spot singles I think you'd in fact have a lot of trouble against lots of teams...
 
Looks like Mega Mence is in top 12 again and P2 got kicked out. I don't understand why usage in P2 declined, but I doubt Mega Mence gonna stay up there for long imo, since everyone packs at least one check to it, and we have to keep in mind that the season is still early. Anyone have any reasoning as to why Porygon2 usage got lowered enough to the point that it got kicked out of top 12?
 
Considering the likes of Heatran, Gardevoir, Hippowdon, Hydreigon etc. haven't been in top 12 in recent history if at all, I wouldn't think too much about the drop and the ascension of viable pokemon like p2 and Mence.
 

cant say

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Being able to see the top 12 most used is really cool, but I wish you'd be able to go deeper into that list to see what else is popular. Even if we didn't have that list but the number a Pokemon sits at is shown on their individual summary screen would be good enough. Like, "oh let's check out what's good on Altaria these days.. Oh cool it is actually the ___ most used Pokemon" would be great. It would be especially helpful if your team was (for example) Heatran weak but you have no idea how popular Heatran is because it isn't in the top 12. I think asking for the percentage at which something is used may be a little far (even though we get it for all the other stats) but that would be the pinnacle, we all know Garchomp is the most used and has been for a really long time, but exactly how many people are running it? What chance do I have of actually running into one? I guess having Antar doing these sorts of stats for Pokemon Showdown! has spoiled me a bit, lol.

I do find it interesting that P2 has dropped off though. It sorta just came from nowhere and now it's gone from the rankings just as fast. It surely isn't a one-hit wonder since it does reliably check a bunch of stuff. It's defensive set is at an all-time low, maybe the offensive set just isn't cutting it anymore and that was what was contributing to it's overall usage the most. Is it sitting at no.13 overall? (this is why we need more usage stats) Maybe salamence will keep rising which will bring Porygon2 back up? It could just be a tug-of-war between them usage-wise.
 

Demantoid

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Being able to see the top 12 most used is really cool, but I wish you'd be able to go deeper into that list to see what else is popular. Even if we didn't have that list but the number a Pokemon sits at is shown on their individual summary screen would be good enough. Like, "oh let's check out what's good on Altaria these days.. Oh cool it is actually the ___ most used Pokemon" would be great. It would be especially helpful if your team was (for example) Heatran weak but you have no idea how popular Heatran is because it isn't in the top 12. I think asking for the percentage at which something is used may be a little far (even though we get it for all the other stats) but that would be the pinnacle, we all know Garchomp is the most used and has been for a really long time, but exactly how many people are running it? What chance do I have of actually running into one? I guess having Antar doing these sorts of stats for Pokemon Showdown! has spoiled me a bit, lol.

I do find it interesting that P2 has dropped off though. It sorta just came from nowhere and now it's gone from the rankings just as fast. It surely isn't a one-hit wonder since it does reliably check a bunch of stuff. It's defensive set is at an all-time low, maybe the offensive set just isn't cutting it anymore and that was what was contributing to it's overall usage the most. Is it sitting at no.13 overall? (this is why we need more usage stats) Maybe salamence will keep rising which will bring Porygon2 back up? It could just be a tug-of-war between them usage-wise.
Someone on Nuggetbridge found a way to get better stats for the Pokemon here http://nuggetbridge.com/forums/topic/16118-more-thorough-battle-spot-rankings/ but they only did it for doubles. Apparently Nintendo has been hiding it from us.
 
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I was pretty shocked that Porygon2 dropped in the first place because it is one of the most common walls, one of the best Evolite Pokemon and is freaking amazing in the Battle Spot metagame. Usually, I don't go a day without seeing at least 3 of them and they get so annoying. I do say that Porygon2 with Trace gives it the advantage over certain Pokemon such as Intimidate users. Analytic takes advantage of Porygon2's Speed hitting harder. I even see Tri-Attack for STAB and the little creeping Foul Play as well. There you have Mega Salamence, a Pokemon that could potentially sweep a team if you're not prepared for it and it is used quite often in the metagame it takes advantage of its status with Facade and using Aerilate. It had excellent typing and great defensive bulk. Salamence has a lot more moves in what to run. It can even be used for defensive sets.

I wouldn't be surprised if Porygon2 and Salamence both go back and forth with each other fighting for the title of being in the top 12. Even though Porygon2 isn't on the list as of right now anyway, both are amazing in Battle Spot.
 
Another thing I noticed on the Pokemon ratings in Battle Spot Singles is that most team are unique. Lately some of the teams I battle with had three of the top twelve pokemon in rankings at most. Also I find it funny because on showdown you see most OP pokemon on the same team most of the time and in the actually game you see the opposite.
 
Another thing I noticed on the Pokemon ratings in Battle Spot Singles is that most team are unique. Lately some of the teams I battle with had three of the top twelve pokemon in rankings at most. Also I find it funny because on showdown you see most OP pokemon on the same team most of the time and in the actually game you see the opposite.
Pretty much I experienced the same thing as well. Pokemon Showdown and in-game are very different in terms of the kinds of Pokemon you use. Battle Spot Singles In-game is very different compared to what you see on Pokemon Showdown for Battle Spot Singles. In-game wise, I see that Pokemon you wouldn't expect to even be viable turns out to be great in the metagame. I don't really enjoy using overrated Pokemon all the time. I might just have one on my team and the rest are underrated Pokemon. I like using them because I can actually come up with sets that I love to try out. I remember I just used Mega Houndoom and it was ripping through many teams. It uses Mega Charizard Y and Ninetails as bait for Solar Power to activate. Even under dual screens, it is a force to be dealt with, even playing mindgames with my opponents from Nasty Plot and Destiny Bond. Mega Houndoom, I never see in Battle Spot on Showdown. I see one here and there In-game. I even tested Tornadus earlier today and I'm satisfied with its Defiant Bulk Up set. I'm going to test Tornadus Therian soon as well to see how that'll be.

Aside from that, Pokemon Showdown Battle Spot Singles is kind of bland compared to In-game. It isn't very exciting and you deal with the same top threats over and over and over again. I really love seeing the people I battle against use out-of-the-ordinary Pokemon, or even interesting moves. I ran into a special attacking Mega Kangaskhan and it was pretty decent overall. I get the enjoyment seeing things such as that, and it really expands my knowledge of the metagame. I remember that Angeela taught me to play In-game instead of always playing on Showdown so much. It really opened my eyes that in Battle Spot Singles In-game, you'll see a lot of Pokemon that you usually don't see and you'll run into creative sets. I learned a lot more about the metagame in Omega Ruby / Alpha Sapphire than I ever did months ago. c:
 
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ethan06

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I thought it might be worth noting that Mega Charizard X has become a lot more popular in this season, with any given Charizard above 1600 having a 5 in 8 chance to be Charizard X. This can screw up traditional Zard Y checks like Thundurus and Rotom-H and make them risky to bring in a Charizard matchup. This could be tied to the rise in popularity of Mamoswine, which is pretty much the poster boy for Ice-type offense, being able to clear out Zapdos, Mega Salamence and Garchomp while also wiping out Aegislash and Heatran with its Earthquake. They're actually pretty decent partners, with Mamoswine clearing out threats to Charizard X (and other Fire-type sweepers such as Mega Blaziken) like Altaria and Mega Salamence, while Charizard sets up on Suicune and Rotom-W. Interested to hear thoughts on these trends, and I'd like to know whether or not I'm right as well ;~;
 
I thought it might be worth noting that Mega Charizard X has become a lot more popular in this season, with any given Charizard above 1600 having a 5 in 8 chance to be Charizard X. This can screw up traditional Zard Y checks like Thundurus and Rotom-H and make them risky to bring in a Charizard matchup. This could be tied to the rise in popularity of Mamoswine, which is pretty much the poster boy for Ice-type offense, being able to clear out Zapdos, Mega Salamence and Garchomp while also wiping out Aegislash and Heatran with its Earthquake. They're actually pretty decent partners, with Mamoswine clearing out threats to Charizard X (and other Fire-type sweepers such as Mega Blaziken) like Altaria and Mega Salamence, while Charizard sets up on Suicune and Rotom-W. Interested to hear thoughts on these trends, and I'd like to know whether or not I'm right as well ;~;
You are right because the higher ratings people you see their sets or the pokemon you expect to see is different. I remember a while back I saw a player battle with a rating in the 1700 used a set that will mess you up. The pokemon you just saw just had a complete different set you have seen before. For example, he had a mixed mega Charizard x. I don't know about you guys that messed up the person he was battling. It was so bad the person didn't know how to react. Well in the end he won 3-0 because the person couldn't adapt or it was too late. Another I should talk about is trends and setting trends. This is a theory, but I think to send a trend you have to be rated high and use crazy sets because I started to use sets that got me off guard in my next battle. One day I was battling on Battle Spot Singles and it was my Mega Charizard Y against his Rampardos. It was 3-1 me and I thought I was going to get a sweep with Charizard because I knew this pokemon was outspeed me unless he had a quick claw and I was going to use solarbeam. Well I used solarbeam and he had a focus sash. I was like ok before he made his next move I will bet him with my next two pokemon. Rampardos used Rock Polish and that is when I knew. I was about to get get destroy because at that time in Battle Spot Singles I used an all mono fire team. He won taking all my pokemon down. So t ended with 0-1. I was surprise and never thought I will see the day. I didn't used the Rampardos because I will stuck on my mono team, but if it wasn't for that team I would've used the Rampardos. At the end of all of this you can start trends it just takes time. Just keep winning.
 
I just thought about this, but I think to do alright in Battle Spot you need four things. The first is a Mega Kangaskhan counter. Second is a fire move that is not Hidden Power Fire that is a Special Attack. Third you need a ice move that doesn't make physical contact with the other pokemon. Fourth you need priority moves.
 

ethan06

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I just thought about this, but I think to do alright in Battle Spot you need four things. The first is a Mega Kangaskhan counter. Second is a fire move that is not Hidden Power Fire that is a Special Attack. Third you need a ice move that doesn't make physical contact with the other pokemon. Fourth you need priority moves.
This is a good start for a teambuilding checklist. I'll try to expand on it -

~ Kangaskhan check (Aegislash, Ferrothorn, Cresselia, Sableye, Gengar, Lucario, Conkeldurr) - essential!!
~ Ice-type offensive presence (Greninja, Weavile, Mamoswine, Raikou, Manectric) - anti Garchomp and Salamence
~ Fire-type offensive presence (Blaziken, Talonflame, Charizard, Heatran, Volcarona) - anti Ferrothorn, Scizor, Aegislash
~ Talonflame check (Raikou, Manectric, Rotom-W, Tyrantrum, Heatran, Gyarados) - very important, Brave Bird sweeps are a real thing
~ Blaziken check (Gyarados, Slowbro, Azumarill, Salamence, Altaria, Talonflame) - lol gl outspeeding this
~ Priority (Talonflame, Azumarill, Aegislash, Mamoswine, Lucario, Kangaskhan, Conkeldurr)
~ anti-Prankster (Thundurus, Whimsicott, Sableye, Espeon, Substitute, Ground-types)
~ Ground type (Garchomp, Landorus-T, Mamoswine, Excadrill, Hippowdon, Gliscor, Swampert)
~ at least one Pokémon with 125 Speed or up (Talonflame, Weavile, Noivern, Jolteon, Lopunny, Manectric) - anti Greninja, Serperior, Raikou, Salamence - slower Pokémon with Choice Scarf work here
~ Knock Off (Porygon2, non-RH Cresselia, Glalie)
~ Spore / Leech Seed switch-in (any Magic Bouncer or Grass type works, also fast / Prankster Substitute)
~ Glalie check (Sacred Sword, Taunt, Infiltrator, Unaware, Sturdy, prayers)
~ anti-Fairy (Greninja, Aegislash, Venusaur, Heatran, Mawile)

What a waste of my 0.5k ;_; oh well I'll do a belated one in a little while

cant say - jake <3
unfixable - fixa <3
Hulavuta - hula <3
Feliburn - feli <3
xastify - xast <3
GroudonEmpire - fish <3
Lucina09 - luci <3
Montsegur - mont <3
Ksnake789 - kie <3

Maybe I'll edit in something more personalised later, but know that you're all beautiful ^_^
 
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Theorymon

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Haven't gotten a chance to play this season yet, but yeah Glalie sounds like some scary stuff: I've been seeing it on the inverse ladder quite a bit, and I saw it a few times last season. While the Ice typing is a lot worse defensively here, Sub + Protect with Moody can still be some really scary stuff! What really makes Glalie a nasty Moody mon though is Sheer Cold: Sheer Cold really screwed with my defensive mons in both metagames, meaning that even if Glalie gets bad boosts, it can still break through stuff like Porygon2 or Suicune.

I'm probably gonna make a team based around it this season because Glalie can be really really evil >:D. It's actually been making me think about using Terrakion as my Kangaskhan check as well, since Sacred Sword should come in handy! Hell I even sorta want to try Scarf Chandelure if Glalie gets more popular.
 
ethan06 Those shoutouts, what for?
Theorymon Glalie is so good you don't even need to team build around it depending on what you are going for xD
I slapped it on my team as number 6 and it managed to be such a common pick from the team I used last season in bss haha
Cresselia Lunar Dance and TWave support (and tearing Kangaskhan) was big for its success when I used it.
Ofcourse Cress can help pretty much everything with Twave+Lunar Dance support xP
 
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