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Gen 2 Adv. guide to competitive battling/team building: the shit that people don't tell you

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Borat, Mar 3, 2009.

  1. Borat


    Apr 14, 2007
    Part 1: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51778 (outdated, but still good)
    Part 2: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65122
    Part 3: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81313
    Part 4: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84227
    Part 5: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84449

    Part 6: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3447576 best one

    One thing you have to drop is the idea of "new" team. If you're not using a certain move, or a certain pokemon because it would be "copying" someone else's idea and not it being an original creation, that's idiotic. Between the fundamental sets and strats (restbell, curselax, sleep talk) developed by the 00-02 foundational players, and vil/celia/bob/whatever developing most of the defensive conceptual shit, and my developing everything else, there's very little, if any "new" left. The concept of "new" teams revolves around a "new" idea, of which there really aren't any. Changing surf to hydro pump, or cloyster to forretress, doesn't really destroy the core foundational function of the team, so for all intents and purposes, it's still the same team. That's why if I try to "rate" teams, I really just end up giving them a worser version of a team I already made.

    Huge fucking wall of text will ensue. This guide will not spoonfeed you answers. I lie, it will.

    You've probably all either learned GSC from "older players" that think they were the shit just because they played 02-03, or yourself just through spectating and reading a couple articles. That's great and all, but not all "elders" have the same credibility. Only a few, very few, have shown a grasp in understanding the game and its limits beyond than your average GSC player today. So if you're learning from these guys, the info they pass on is no more credible than that advice given by most of the trash GSC players that developed from today's "3rd gen and on" players, except maybe you'll get a history lesson or two. An ignorant message often iterated by these trash players:
    "lol gsc is just stall
    ez meta
    my own very original team was the best
    lol 198-0
    i has big peen"

    While I was decent way back when (03? Whenever GSC was dominant), I admit, I didn't really start understanding GSC as in-depth as some of the more elite players (ViL, havoc, and Chris, to name a few that I've come to respect). I mean, I understood the typechart, counters, movesets, prediction, all the basic necessities that the average shitty player knows, and not surprisingly it's more than enough to win a good percentage of my matches. I "sucked" back then, but I still won. Point is, I would never, EVER take my own advice from the previous me. Odds are, these "elders" you refer to were probably people like me, who thought they knew everything there is to know, houses a very respectable win ratio against even the best players, but in reality have very limited knowledge of the game.

    A quick word about team building: jack of all trades, master of none. Over time, you'll find that a "balanced" team, so to speak, would ultimately be less effective than a team dedicated to its own synergies. This is based on my philosophy that by controlling tempo you have the best chance of coming out with a win. If you plan on playing a fast-paced game, you shouldn't add shit like a spinner or a beller. Likewise, playing a slower paced game, you probably shouldn't go without these. Of course, this doesn't mean a stall team must run Spikes, or should for that matter, since remember, a stall team just has to not lose. Spiking is actually considered offensive if it plays a focal point on a team.

    With a "balanced" team, you end up losing to teams you could've beaten if you just focused on one aspect. You get outsped by offensive teams and with your lack of true defensive walls, you are faced with a losing proposition. Against a stall team, you lack the offensive weapons necessary to break that stall and ultimately lose the battle as time wears on.

    In GSC [but applies in general], there are three categories that every team will ultimately fall under: stall, offensive, and fail. Stall is self-defined. All successful stall teams are extremely similar. The goal here is to not lose (note: this is the ONLY goal for a successful stall team) and that's accomplished through covering, or making ineffective, as many offensive threats as possible . Here's a short compilation of common threats:
    Perish trapping (special attention to Thundermissy)
    All forms of non-drum Snorlax (there's no guaranteed answer to Drumlax)
    Cursegon2 and curse anything tbh
    Spikers (deadly with a ghost type/pursuiter)
    Baton Passers
    Spikes shuffling Raikou/Skarm/Cune
    As many variations of Gengar as possible
    Offensive teams are those that have a chance, akin possibility, of beating any combination of Pokemon through its own offense (doesn't need a freeze/CH whatever). However, an offensive team doesn't necessarily have to be quick, it just needs a win condition. Teams focused on spikes can be considered offensive teams, but these teams should not be mistakened for just some shitty stall team with spikes splashed in. These teams should run a ghost-type/pursuiter as well as a spiker (obviously). It also MUST have pokemon capable of abusing spikes through indirect/direct methods of forcing switches (raikou and skarm are the best at it, suicune a distant 3rd). If it relies on toxic, then it should have Toxic on different Pokemon so that it maximizes status spread. This means you must be able to Toxic different stuff; Toxic on Tyranitar and Snorlax is the same as running Toxic on one because they see the same switch-in: Suicune. It's also a good idea to run ample offensive Pokemon to force enough switches for Spikes/Toxic to make a difference. Offensive are the hardest teams to build, not that it has any competition though. A fail team is either a defensive team that lacks both the longevity and the pure walling power of that of stalls, or an offensive minded team that simply lacks the correct weapons to break through stalls. The majority of teams you see will fall under this category. I'll even go as far as to say the classic Celia team falls under offense (spiking) gearing towards fail (slow as hell). A pure stall can last just as long as him/her, and he/she's got a huge mixsweeper weakness in addition to Drumlax.

    Stall teams dominate[d] GSC, no one can argue with that. It's pretty much always been true. Why? They're easy to play and yield the maximum results with minimal prediction and skill (hey its jolteon, go raikou; hey its snorlax go skarm; hey its something that cant hurt me, toxic; etc). To help its case even further, [from what I can remember] most teams were built with the "balanced" (fail) philosophy in mind. A player's thinking often goes down like this: well this team has a glaring weakness to a, so I'll throw in Pokemon b with moves c and d to cover; Pokemon e might give me some problems, so I'll just replace move d with move g; throw on a spiker, Snorlax, and a phazer and I'm done. These teams almost always lacked the offense to break stall, and because it started off as some offensive team, it also lacks the defense to outlast true stalls. These teams often resort to try and out-stall the stalls, which resulted in the classic generalization of all GSC as being just that: stall.

    But just stand back and think for a second: what is the mindset of stall teams? To not lose. Rather than trying to win, their entire goal is just to "not lose". Fail. So how could a team that doesn't even have a plan to winning possibly win, and with such frequency? The answer: stall teams generally face other stall/fail teams who also don't have any method of winning, just not losing. Because the stall team is dedicated to not losing, and the fail team is just partially dedicated to not losing, the stall team wins in not losing. The truth is, a stall team can never win in its own right. You can beat yourself by simply not executing your offense correctly (that's assuming your team doesn't fall under the fail category), or you can be outskilled in terms of prediction, but you can never flatout lose to a stall team.

    With that being said, a stall team played aggressively is extremely dangerous in that it minimizes the time the offensive team has execute its offense (or in other terms, when they control the tempo). Along the same lines, if you're playing stall slowly against the offensive team (e.g. setting up Toxic/Spikes/other fail moves), all you're doing is giving the offense a chance to set up (in a general sense, not SD/BD/stat-uppers) and extending the time to which offensive teams have control.

    Now here's a compilation of random posts I made that I deem somewhat useful:

    On the topic of creativity

    On people throwing spikers on the team "just to annoy"

    On controlling tempo being the most important aspect of battling

    In Sir Chris's epic topic
    On people thinking mix sweepers alone > stalls

  2. Borat


    Apr 14, 2007
    I'll format this if anyone wants me too, but I doubt anyone cares that much about GSC anymore except an old mug like me.
  3. .Maguss.


    Jan 31, 2009
    Great post Borat!

    BTW, I've already read all of these posts you quoted (as you said me to read ALL your posts, and I did it).

    So, if the best teams in GSC are the agressivity stall ones, could you make a step-by-step guide of how to make one?
  4. Wichu

    is a Pokemon Researcher

    May 30, 2007
    Might want to change the title; 'Adv.' immediately screams "3rd gen!".
    Hewhoamareismyself likes this.
  5. Borat


    Apr 14, 2007
    I didn't say aggressive stall teams are the best teams, partially because aggressive defines playstyle, but that they're the most dangerous to play against. You have the advantage versus fail teams, and against stall teams, it's just a battle of who can not lose (akin 500+ turn snoozer), so the only real matchup here is versus offensive teams. If it's a well-built offensive team, you have no chance of flatout walling it because quite frankly, you can't. You can try to, and this is where stall teams, or at least stalling players, lose. What you should do instead is attack; chances are, the offensive team won't have the same walling capabilities that you do and can't shrug off attacks as easily. So despite your limited offense, you're at least making progress. You're telling the offense, "hey, you have 20 turns to break me before I break you", putting pressure on them. Whereas if you play the normal walling, you're saying "don't worry, take your time to set up and beat me, I won't do anything to you."

    So if you want a step by step guide:
    1. Make good stall team
    2. Attack when faced with a fast-paced offensive team rather than stall

    @Wichu: Only to native 3rd gen players. As far as I'm concerned (and the rest of the English speaking population), adv. = advanced, plug in the word "advanced" and voila. And plus, it's under the GSC section. That should be enough...
  6. Steeler


    Apr 13, 2006
    awesome read. :) i've always disliked D/P and i got into advance pretty late into its lifespan, so i'm looking into past generations.
  7. TVboyCanti


    Sep 23, 2006
    An insightful read. The blatant smugness was delicious and made the post that much more credible and enjoyable.
  8. Borat


    Apr 14, 2007

    Because it's all you need to know. And updated too.
  9. Borat


    Apr 14, 2007
    I'm bumping this.
  10. Itchni


    Jun 11, 2008
    just let the stupid thread die.
  11. Alan


    Jan 14, 2010
    I just wanted to say this thread/post was extremely helpful. I find GSC to be the most difficult gen (I guess cause im a DPP child) and it really helped me understand the metagame a ton more, im still noob tho. thanks borat. :)
  12. Borat


    Apr 14, 2007
    Some slight bits are outdated, and have been for a while. I have a far more recent copy that I've been working on [and off] for the past year or so. Touch-ups if you will. It also provides a little more in-depth team building guide, with some step by step stuff and some example teams both by me, and other experienced players (credit where due, obviously). And I've got a lot more done on the Pokemon analysis things. I'll see when I get it done... if I get it done. Might work with havoc or something, maybe.

    And as always, I hope you know where to find part 2 (where it says part 2).
  13. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Do I need another PHD to unbutton this stupid sweater?
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Aug 18, 2009
    It was a pretty good read. I've got a few questions I want to ask and I'll edit this post when I get time to ask em.
  14. monster


    Nov 29, 2007
    Good read. It brings back memories... any GSC battle with two good teams indeed take forever (hence the stall concept).
  15. Fred111


    Dec 28, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  16. Crystal_

    Crystal_ I ruined RBY!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Dec 20, 2009
    lol nice bump
  17. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Have a rice day
    is a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Dec 19, 2004
    This deserves a few appreciation bumps every now and then.
  18. Theman14


    Feb 21, 2011
    Brings back such great memories...
  19. totoTavros


    Dec 8, 2013
    I honestly wish that there was something like this for more gens, they would be very useful.

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