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Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by Matthew, Apr 18, 2012.
The tutoring program opens up once a month. See this thread.
@atsync: Thanks for testing it out!
What I meant was if I could find all the pokemon that have an OU section for their analysis regardless of their actual tier.
Ok so im new to competitive Pokemon Nintendo DS play. I have played all of them like the old GBC Yellow etc all the way to Black and White. I have decided to play online and stuff and i have learnt alot because of Smogon. I am planning on entering tournaments and winning prizes in the UK as well. I play the Yugioh Trading Card Game IRL and have travelled to Spain,USA etc to play and have won many tournaments. I want to do the same but for Pokemon gaming....But first i need a few questions answering:
1.) I went to play my first online single battle yesterday. You only used 3 Pokemon. So in theory you can have 2 mini teams of 3 and your opponent wont know which one you have picked until he/she is actually battling. So why do people build a team for 6 with Starters, attackers, sweepers etc?
2.) I know what a Sweeper is i think. But just to be sure, can someone give me a Pokemon definition of a sweeper and other simlar things alike such as defenders, attackers, starter and anything else i have missed?
3.) In Yugioh, during different times of the year there is usually 3 best decks and then medium ones and lower ones. I have looked at Smogon and have learned about Uber, OU,BL,UU etc but that is just the individual pokemon. What about TEAMS? At a hobby league shop, some regulars told me about a Sandstorm team where you abuse sandstorm pokemon like the hippo pokemon (forgot its name). - So, what other teams are they (Name as many as possible and if you can, state whether it is used alot), what do they do and focus on (specific moves or something) and what Pokemon do they usually use?
4.) Cant you just have a team of 6 (or 3) really good individual pokemon with no particular theme?
Thats it for now. I have tons more but i think these need answering first. Also, if i have posted this in the wrong place or if there is a better place to post it then LMK. Anyone can answer any of the questions btw and more then once. I know its alot to answer but it would be a BIG help. Thank you.
1. On most competitive battling programs, such as Pokemon Online, you use 6 Pokemon for every battle.
2. A sweeper is a Pokemon which aims to offensively destroy the opponent's team. An example is Haxorus.
3. Sand teams have a Sandstorm starter (Tyranitar or Hippowodon), and Pokemon that can abuse Sand (Landorus, Terrakion, Ferrothorn). All other weather teams are similar. Stall teams literally stall opponents to death. HO (Heavy Offense) teams sweep the opponent to death.
4. Absolutely. In fact, most battlers don't use themes. A popular team would be Scizor/Ferrothorn/Rotom-W/Tyranitar/Terrakion/Celebi, which has absolutely no theme.
I'm not well familiarized with OU, so you'll have to bear with me.
1. 3v3 is only used in ingame online. Most competitive play is in 6v6 singles. If you're referring to IRL competitive play, that is in 4v4 doubles (which is functionally identical to ingame online, barring time limits). Building teams with 6 independent Pokemon makes it easier to counter / check a threat on your opponent's team (however, this is only relevant in 3v3 and 4v4; in 6v6, obviously, you use your whole team) than if you focus on teams of 3.
2. This article is helpful. Skim through it.
3. A variety exist, but I'll expand on those AOPSUser mentioned.
-Drizzle teams focus on boosting the power of strong attackers like Rotom-W, raising the accuracy of Thunder to 100% (useful for Pokemon that run Thunder for the paralysis chance, like Jirachi), and boosting the defensive capabilities of Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Scizor, Jirachi, and Rain Dish Scizor.
-Drought teams focus on abusing sun and Pokemon with Chlorophyll (out of the Pokemon that possess it, Venusaur is the most viable); however, it's not the best team type due to a variety of awkward limitations.
-Sand and hail are mostly useful for cancelling out Drizzle. Tyranitar is a fantastic Pokemon in its own right, which ensures that sandstorm holds a grip in the metagame. Otherwise, it also boosts the power of Terrakion (which gets a boost to its Special Defense) and Landorus (which gains a 1.3x boost to its Earthquakes and Stone Edges). Hail is used far less than the other weathers because it requires that one uses Ice-types, which are fundamentally terrible. Bar Mamoswine, Cloyster, and the awkward Kyurem, few good Ice-types exist in OU (notably, the former two do not make any sort of use of it).
-Stall focuses on setting up entry hazards early on and keeping them up later. As the opponent switches to a strong Pokemon, a stall team switches out to a Pokemon that can take the hits of the attacker and retaliate with enough force to scare it out. Status conditions and sandstorm can sometimes be added to the mix to speed the process.
-HO also gets entry hazards up early on in addition to Light Screen and Reflect, but then focuses on overwhelming the opponent with strong, somewhat frail Pokemon - Haxorus is an example.
-VolTurn is not necessarily a type of team, but is a strategy that tends to abuse Scizor for U-turn and Rotom-W for Volt Switch to switch back and forth between the opponents' Pokemon; although entry hazards hurt Rotom-W and (to a greater extent) Scizor every time they switch in, the pair packs a punch.
This is a pretty shallow description and only a few of the team types. Play a few games on Pokemon Online and you'll get the hang of it.
4. Yes, you can have a team of 4 good Pokemon, but without any diversity, they will only get you so far.
Ok thanks for the info. When i said online i meant Pokemon Black/White online through Nintendo Wi-Fi on my DS. Just downloaded Pokemon Online now and its great!
A couple more questions though (NOTE: I base this all on OU btw.):
5.) What are some good/popular Stall teams?
6.) What are some good/popular HO teams?
7.) Are those type of teams (Weather, Stall, HO.) the only type or is there any more? I know there is lots of teams within those 3 types but is there any more types or have you covered everything?
8.) How long does it take to become good (really good) like know the metagame inside out etc? Or how long did it take you?
Hi. Thanks for your information as well :). When i talk about playing competitivly i mean getting my Nintendo DS and using the game catridge to play others. I know there is events and tournaments for this. I dont mind doing it for online as well but im not sure there is official tournaments online which earn you prizes/rewards? If there is then great, i could do that too.
That link is very helpful! Thanks alot.
Ok, so from those teams you mentioned, i guess in the OU metagame, SandStorm teams are the best thing to use? If so, whats a good counter to this?
Online play is very good for structuring a team without actually building it. It takes a tangible amount of time to build a team (or action replay), which causes most to simply play online instead. In general, experienced players tend to gravitate towards online play instead of cartridge play because of those problems.
The only tournaments in which you win tangible prizes, bar a variety of small contests held by local clubs and the like, are VGC tournaments, in which you play 4v4 doubles. Even though this is also cartridge play, again, it's good to practice on the Skarmbliss server (which has a doubles bias) before making any team.
In OU, I fear that I can't really tell you what the best team type is. I'm a pretty mediocre OU player; my experience in the tier is not too great. However, again, be sure to understand what it is that you want - if you want to win IRL tournaments, you have to know that the doubles metagame is very different from the singles metagame.
In doubles, the viability of Pokemon is, on average, higher. Because battles are shorter, instant weather gains a huge boost and strategies like Trick Room become reasonable. The metagame tends to center around a few common threats:
Garchomp: Although its STABs are neutered in doubles (it can't reliably use Outrage and Earthquake has 75 BP), it's still strong and extremely bulky.
Zapdos: It pairs well with Garchomp (which can use Earthquake unfettered), has good bulk, and high Special Attack.
Latios: Draco Gem Draco Meteor is common and hurts very much.
Cresselia: It has fantastic bulk and never dies, but it isn't very strong; it also sets up Trick Room.
Hitmontop: It has Fake Out, Intimidate, a strong STAB in Close Combat, Sucker Punch, and, on occasion, Wide Guard, making it a fantastic supporter.
Tyranitar: Putting Tyranitar in the back against a rain team means that said team will not have the security of weather. It still has great stats and Rock Slide is a great spread move.
Politoed: Although it has issues with STAB to a certain extent (Scald is weak but the most common, Surf hits allies but has multiple targets, and Hydro Pump is inaccurate, which is undesirable when you have a very small sample size of matches), it summons rain, which is still the most powerful weather.
Ludicolo / Kingdra: Both gain Swift Swim boosts; the former is more common due to its better typing.
Chandelure: A jack of all trades with powerful spread moves, deceptive bulk (60/90/90 becomes ok when you invest enough into HP), and the ability to set up Trick Room, it's a pretty strange Pokemon.
Abomasnow / Ninetales: Although both are lesser seen weather starters, each is viable in its own respect.
Volcarona: It's like Chandelure, but it trades a good defensive typing and worse defenses / Special Attack for less mediocre speed and the ability to use Bug Buzz and Quiver Dance.
Rotom-W: Although it is forced to rely on the inaccurate Hydro Pump, it's still a great Pokemon as a result of its near lack of weaknesses.
Scizor: Another sterotypical OU threat is also good in the VGC metagame; like Rotom-W, it becomes harder to control if you do not bring a Pokemon with a move that it is weak to.
Terrakion: Although it's not as dominant as in VGC, it still does pretty much the same thing as in OU, hitting hard with Close Combat and Rock Slide. Using Beat Up on it will result in a deadly +3 boost to its Attack.
Amoonguss: While it may seem insignificant, it's a fantastic user of Rage Powder and also possesses Spore. Because there is no Sleep Clause in VGC play, this can be easily abused. Its bulk is pretty good.
I'm sure I've missed some threats, but VGC tends to center around those first few.
Some move trends:
Protect: It is far more common because of double targeting; after enough play, you should be able to judge when a protect will occur.
Wide Guard: Although it is less popular, it allows you to protect your partner and yourself from multi-target moves like Earthquake and Rock Slide.
Follow Me / Rage Powder: Both are extremely invaluable on a team that can use them. Drawing a resisted attack to Pokemon like Amoonguss or Togekiss can be instrumental in letting a powerful Pokemon wreak havoc.
Fake Out: With Fake Out, you can control the opponent's first turn, to a certain extent; it also breaks the odd Focus Sash as well.
Trick Room: Although it is pretty much a toy for Reuniclus in singles, in doubles, it constitutes a whole playstyle. After bulky Pokemon like Cresselia and Dusclops set up Trick Room, slow, powerful Pokemon like Tyranitar, Hariyama, and the like become easy to abuse.
Tailwind: A bit like an instant Choice Scarf, it multiplies the Speed of your Pokemon by 1.5 for a short while, letting you outspeed the opponent pretty easily, provided Trick Room is not up.
Higher accuracy: This is one that is purely statistical. When you play singles, you play a huge number of matches; your win / loss ratio approaches the actual value it should be with enough time. However, in VGC, you only have 6-8 matches to play in. A good analogy is this - if you flip a coin 7 times, the chance that it will land tails every time is far greater than the chance that it will land tails 100 times in 100 flips. In other words, luck, if it occurs, is far more crippling. Therefore, try to avoid any sort of luck that you can. Stay away from moves like Stone Edge and try, if you can, to choose solely moves that have accuracy higher than 85%.
Ok, thanks for all the valuable information :) So what is a VGC tournament?
Didn't see this getting answered so here is: http://www.smogon.com/bw/metagames/ou :)
VGC, or Video Game Championships, consists of a few competitions held by The Pokemon Company International in specific locations; this year (and likely the next year), they were Swiss format (in other words, your ranking depends on the caliber of the opponents you defeat; you're also never eliminated); I feel that they may add in a bracket for the top 16 in future competitions, though.
You can find full rules and prizes here; the same thread also has this year's locations (the locations of next year shouldn't differ too much).
If you want to get a feel for the competitions, you can head over to the VGC subforum and read a warstory or two.
Silly question, can Struggle hit Shedinja?
yes, struggle disregards all immunities bar protect/detect & friends
Ok, another question. When playing on my Nintendo DS on PKMN Black, all the Pokemon get put to LV 50...So whats the point in training them to LV 100???
To get otherwise unobtainable moves and to evolve anything that evolves over level 50
But keep in mind that EVs work slightly differently at level 50 so if you want them to be optimally EV trained you need to act as if they are always level 50
What do you mean? So say if i have a fully EV trained PKMN at LV 100, if it goes to LV 50 will its EVs be the same?
EVs will be the same in that you'll have the same amount of them, but they get factored into stats slightly differently; at level 50 you'll need more than 4 EVs per stat point.
Any decimals that occur while evaluating these formulae are truncated. Since you're multiplying by 50 instead of 100, unless I'm misunderstanding the formulae you'll need 8 EVs per stat point at level 50.
Is Farfetch'd's analysis a joke or...
True honour is no joke, my friend.
In all seriousness, yeah it's a joke. Many joke analyses exist, generally only if the Pokémon in question is obviously completely useless competitively, such as Magikarp. I know there's more, but I forget which other Pokémon have them... anybody got a list?
Ha ha, ok. I got a little confused. Thought I was missing out or something.
Where can i find a list of all the active Team Raters?
Honestly don't think there is a place to see all the active TRers. But I'm gunna do my best to list them off:
Delko, mostwanted, BKC, san_pellegrino, Smith, new world order, tomahawk9, Shakeitup, AB2, and Alucard.
May have missed some but I'm on my phone atm :)
Hope that helps!