Pokémon Azumarill

[yoh102]

Anyway, back to the BellyAzu matter. People run Scizor, Ferrothorn, Ditto, and now Talonflame all the time. They don't really use them for checking on a BellyAzu in particular. Ditto is a hard counter. Scizor can check many other threats along with BellyAzu. Talonflame is a fine sweeper with priorities. Ferrothorn is one hell of a lead. They serve many different purposes, which include checking on that Azu if the enemy has one.

Ditto isn't hard countering azumarill anytime soon. he can revenge azu but can't come in on anything not named belly drum.
Ferrothorn's lead skills are irrelevant (if you are leading with ferro chances are it is going to be weakened by the time it faces azu).

All of you saying BellyJet is bad are almost assuming azu comes in turn one and belly drums. BellyJet is strictly a late game sweeper, the only other role you should make azu do is revenge kill some water weak mons (Blaziken, tyranitar, excadrill, volcarona, mamoswine), and physically weak pokemon (Gengar, alakazam, smeargle), while smacking a predicted switch in hard with either waterfall or play rough.

As for EVs, the easter bunny will at least need to outspeed Jellicent (84 spe for min speed) by the time PokéBank comes out.

 

[iQs__]

Ditto isn't hard countering azumarill anytime soon. he can revenge azu but can't come in on anything not named belly drum.

I'm talking about BellyAzu. I do not say anything about Banded Azu cus I like it a lot.

Yeah, I'm really not buying the legitimacy of Belly Azu either. It's a high-stakes gambit that falls to dumb opponents attacking blindly and smart players who can keep an Aqua Jet resist alive (which is any of them, btw; +6 Azu can't even KO Breloom). Faster priority is on almost every team now, and Azumarill is essentially useless until it can set up. It's a gimmick and a severe misuse of the Pokemon IMO.

This is what I'm trying to say all day long :)

I personally run Choice Band Azumarill. It works amazingly as long as the Belly Drum set exists, since I can lure in Ferrothorn and OHKO it with Superpower. Similarly, people may play too carefully around a Belly Drum Azumarill in fear of Choice Band, so they may end up losing that way.

Yeah after testing both I prefer Banded Azumarill, but Belly Drum isn't THAT bad.

I don't deny the existence of BellyAzu. But you guys also prefer Banded. Me too. It's just that safer and more reliable as a sweeper.

 

[Kendama]

Azumarill for ou! Bluff a band, and kill.
Azumarill@Mystic Water
Trait: Huge Power
Nature: Adamant
Evs: 252 Atk/252 Hp/ 4 Def
-Waterfall
-Play Rough
-Aqua Jet
-Double-edge/Ice Punch/ Superpower

 

[Thorhammer]

I'm talking about BellyAzu. I do not say anything about Banded Azu cus I like it a lot.

You're misunderstanding. To switch in, Ditto must predict a Belly Drum or come in after you sacrifice something. Whether or not the set has Belly Drum, Ditto is dead if it switches into an actual attack. That's not how counters work.

 

[iQs__]

You're misunderstanding. To switch in, Ditto must predict a Belly Drum or come in after you sacrifice something. Whether or not the set has Belly Drum, Ditto is dead if it switches into an actual attack. That's not how counters work.

No. I would use my current pokemon to deal damage, most of the time I can take it down, but yeah let's say he succeeds in seting up a Belly Drum. I just let him finish off one of my poke to get a free switch. Now I have a gigantic +6 scarfed Azu on my field. That's all. Why take risk?

 

[Thorhammer]

No. I would use my current pokemon to deal damage, most of the time I can take it down, but yeah let's say he succeeds in seting up a Belly Drum. I just let him finish off one of my poke to get a free switch. Now I have a gigantic +6 scarfed Azu on my field. That's all. Why take risk?

Yes, that's what Ditto does. It revenge kills. A counter is something that can reliably avoid that "sacrifice a Pokemon" step. Because sometimes it's useful to not lose Pokemon.

 

[Edgar81539]

No. I would use my current pokemon to deal damage, most of the time I can take it down, but yeah let's say he succeeds in seting up a Belly Drum. I just let him finish off one of my poke to get a free switch. Now I have a gigantic +6 scarfed Azu on my field. That's all. Why take risk?

Because on a game where you only have 6 pokes, losing one is awful. You don't sacrifice things, you try to directly counter them, even if that means to lose health/ a potential advantage. Sacrificing only works when you already have a heavy advantage.

 

[iQs__]

Yes, that's what Ditto does. It revenge kills. A counter is something that can reliably avoid that "sacrifice a Pokemon" step. Because sometimes it's useful to not lose Pokemon.

Because on a game where you only have 6 pokes, losing one is awful. You don't sacrifice things, you try to directly counter them, even if that means to lose health/ a potential advantage. Sacrificing only works when you already have a heavy advantage.

Maybe the idea about hard counter is different, you and me. So I accept that idea of yours. I would still consider Ditto is any-boosted-sweeper hard counter. It's too dangerous.

In a game you just can't predict everything !!

You will be caught offguard, sooner or later. A pokemon which seems to be countered by another may have a Hidden Power up its sleeve. If you can predict a Gengar switching into your Infernape, you can burn him down with just one Flare Blitz.

That's why you have to sacrifice things, you have to sacrifice a low-health sweeper with Burn on it so you can reset the table with a new-free-switching-in. You have to always have the idea about suicide leads in your head. They run Smeargle Sashed for a reason. They run Crobat in rain team for a reason. Azelf same case. But as a lead, they are almost guaranteed dead. So don't tell me that you don't sacrifice thing. I have to sacrifice my Charizard Y to an Outrage Charizard X just so that the last pokemon in my arsenal which is Excadrill can switch in without the fear of a Fire Blast, and I won.

 

[Thorhammer]

A hard counter is not a Pokemon that can take you into an advantageous position by any means; it means specifically something that can switch in on damn near anything. Hard counters are very rare in this day and age, at least for good Pokemon; if they have one, they're expected to find a way past it.

The dispute is not about Ditto's abilities; it's about your vocabulary.

 

[iQs__]

A hard counter is not a Pokemon that can take you into an advantageous position by any means; it means specifically something that can switch in on damn near anything. Hard counters are very rare in this day and age, at least for good Pokemon; if they have one, they're expected to find a way past it.

The dispute is not about Ditto's abilities; it's about your vocabulary.

I did not want to start a personal arguement about a meaning of an English word from the first place. But you just did with your last sentence.

Counter has lots of meaning, it has variants. The meaning of the word "counter" in Pokemon is also not restricted to one meaning by any means.

Who said that counter means specifically something that can switch in on anything?

If I use the word "counter" as in "counter attack", it means that you give a return blow after you take one in order to negate or thwart the advantage gained by the enemy after their first attack. In this specific case, the enemy has the upper hand when he takes down one of my pokemon and he has a +6 sweeper on the field, and by sending out Ditto, I am doing a counter to his action, forcing him to either lose or switch his Azumarill out, which negates his advantages, and put him in a passive position.

 

[AOPSUser]

I did not want to start a personal arguement about a meaning of an English word from the first place. But you just did with your last sentence.

Counter has lots of meaning, it has variants. The meaning of the word "counter" in Pokemon is also not restricted to one meaning by any means.

Who said that counter means specifically something that can switch in on anything?

If I use the word "counter" as in "counter attack", it means that you give a return blow after you take one in order to negate or thwart the advantage gained by the enemy after their first attack. In this specific case, the enemy has the upper hand when he takes down one of my pokemon and he has a +6 sweeper on the field, and by sending out Ditto, I am doing a counter to his action, forcing him to either lose or switch his Azumarill out, which negates his advantages, and put him in a passive position.

Irrelevant. At Smogon we consider the word "counter" to have the sole meaning of anything that can switch in and wall, force out, or KO the Pokemon it counters without fail every time. Unless we are discussing something other than a Pokemon, that is the only thing counter should mean.

Ditto is a check, albeit a very good one, to Belly Drum Azumarill. It cannot switch into Choice Band variants without fearing the Play Rough, which will do a ton of damage if not OHKO. It cannot be sure Azumarill has Belly Drum until it Drums, and at that point it cannot switch in except to revenge kill.

 

[iQs__]

Irrelevant. At Smogon we consider the word "counter" to have the sole meaning of anything that can switch in and wall, force out, or KO the Pokemon it counters without fail every time. Unless we are discussing something other than a Pokemon, that is the only thing counter should mean.

Maybe the idea about hard counter is different, you and me. So I accept that idea of yours. I would still consider Ditto is any-boosted-sweeper hard counter. It's too dangerous.

I said the idea was different, so I accept that idea from the community. I do not try to distort it, and my idea remains for myself only. I do not say he was wrong.

Anyway, if you guys do not feel comfortable with it, and because I am a newbie, I apologise for using the wrong version of the word.

 

[JustLetMePlay]

I said the idea was different, so I accept that idea. I do not try to distort it, and my idea remains for myself only. I do not say he was wrong.

Anyway, if you guys do not feel comfortable with it, and because I am a newbie, I apologise for using the wrong version of the word.

It's not that people are not comfortable with your definition of the word, but for the sake of consistency and clarity of meaning, it's better for everyone if there is a universally accepted meaning. That's what jargon is for.

 

[iQs__]

It's not that people are not comfortable with your definition of the word, but for the sake of consistency and clarity of meaning, it's better for everyone if there is a universally accepted meaning. That's what jargon is for.

Fair enough. I'm seeking knowledges and experiences, not some personal arguements. At least I am happy that my thoughts on Azumarill are quite acceptable. Cheers ~

 

[The Great Gastly]

I have come to the conclusion that Belly Drum, while an admittedly cool gimmick, is really not taking advantage of what Azumarill does best.

What Azumarill does best is breaking walls and punching holes, and does so throughout the match. Azu's typing possesses some fantastic resistances to pivot in with during the battle, and using a one-time sweeper like Belly Drum basically forces you to hold back on sending him in if you want to pull off a set-up. Even after all that, I never found the set-up to be worth the trade-off. It's very difficult to sweep when you're best means of attack is a Base 50 priority move easily out-prioritized by a few common sights (like Talonflame and Scizor).

From experience, I missed being able to switch in and just deal heavy damage without the burden of belly drum's side-effect being there. :O

 

[iQs__]

Iv'e just breed myself a flawless Adamant Azumarill. 31 IVs in every stat except Sp. ATK :D and has Huge Power, so no ability capsule needed :P
It has Aqua Jet, as an egg move, (What a bonus) and immediately maxed out it's ATK ev's to 252, but stumped on what EVs to give it next.
Was a bit worried when reading through this thread that I maybe should of breed Belly drum to it as well, but thought it too gimmicky, and if your prediction is off then you knackered. Best to play the safe route, I think. Plus extra move slot for a move like Super Power, for things like Magnezone
Aqua Jet has priority, so don't know if its should have some speed investment, but I would definitely want it to get of a Waterfall or Play Rough before the opponent, so maybe some speed investment is required.

If anyone has a good EV spread please let me know.
The above set looks about right (the previous posts) but don't know if it needs all that HP.

Azumarill @ Choice Band
Huge Power
Adamant
EVs:
Outspeed Bullet Punch 8 Spe Scizor: 124HP/252Atk/132Spe
The normal way: 172HP/252Atk/84Spe
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Superpower

 

[Todd]

I have to say, I like pivot Azumarill more than either BD or CB azumarill. Kendama gave a great set that is similar to the one I use, only I put the last 4 EVs in speed and run splash plate or life orb, depending on the day of the week and if the tides are right.

Basically, he runs the same way as pivot Aegislash. Come in on one of the many, many things Azumarill resists due to it's great typing and pretty good bulk. Fire off the appropriate move dependent on the team you're fighting, or STAB splash plate waterfall if nothing else on the switch, then Aqua Jet. It's a great pivot, and unlike Aegislash, it allows him to bluff a choice set, which is something Aegislash cannot do. On teams where Aegislash doesn't fit, I have had great success running this guy as my pivot.

EDIT: Pairing him up with t-wave/dragon tail M-Aggron, it's fantastic. Most fairies pair well with M-Aggron, but Azumarill forms a great semi-offensive one (plus he resisits fire), and he appreciates the t-wave support Aggron brings.

 

[typon77]

, only I put the last 4 EVs in speed and run splash plate or life orb, depending on the day of the week and if the tides are right.

I see what you did there.

But I've also found bluffing Choice Band to be incredibly effective, especially since most people are convinced that Azumarill has only two viable sets (CB and BD). The only problem is I've found times where the damage output is lacking, especially on Aqua Jet. It doesn't revenge neutral targets nearly as well due to the fairly significant power drop.

 

[DK Quagmire]

Thanks IQs. Was also thinking about how many speed evs Scizor might have at Battle Maison, as I don't think they'll have 8 speed. from experience of the gen 4 battle frontier I know that the Pokemon there had 2 stats maxed out
Also don't know if my friends would be running scizor and what speed evs they would of given it.
though saying all this. If Scizor comes in as a revenge killer, would it be better to aqua jet, and hope to go first or just waterfall, knowing that even though you'll take the hit, you'll dish out some heavy damage to it. either that or just switch into something that resists steel types.
if the latter is the case, then maybe just the standard set will do for me (84 speed EV's)

 

[Plasma.EXE]

I've been running an Assault vest with pretty high success. It's capable of surviving a Solar beam from Mega Charizard Y and Specs Timid Noivern hurricane is a 3 hit KO. The only downside is he can't really take out Charizard Y at half health with aqua jet. Most non-stab super effective moves become 3 hit KO's instead of 2. Hazards support is usually enough to take out most other threats with an aqua jet.

Azumarill
Azumarill@Assault Vest
Trait: Huge Power
Nature: Adamant
Evs: 252 Atk/252 Hp/ 4 Speed
-Waterfall
-Play Rough
-Aqua Jet
-Superpower

 

[iQs__]

I've been running an Assault vest with pretty high success. It's capable of surviving a Solar beam from Mega Charizard Y and Specs Timid Noivern hurricane is a 3 hit KO. The only downside is he can't really take out Charizard Y at half health with aqua jet. Most non-stab super effective moves become 3 hit KO's instead of 2. Hazards support is usually enough to take out most other threats with an aqua jet.

Azumarill
Azumarill@Assault Vest
Trait: Huge Power
Nature: Adamant
Evs: 252 Atk/252 Hp/ 4 Def
-Waterfall
-Play Rough
-Aqua Jet
-Superpower

I don't know. This set looks interesting but without Choice Band his damage output is just a "meh". People even need to have BellyDrum, which is a testiment to show you how desperate this mouse needs to kill the opponent fast.

I do not think people are dumb enough to put Charizard and Noivern out to fight with Azu. Charizard cannot eat a Banded Aqua Jet, and Noivern does not have anything to deal with Azumarill while it has Play Rough. I have not tested out your set but ....

 

[Plasma.EXE]

I don't know. This set looks interesting but without Choice Band his damage output is just a "meh". People even need to have BellyDrum, which is a testiment to show you how desperate this mouse needs to kill the opponent fast.

I do not think people are dumb enough to put Charizard and Noivern out to fight with Azu. Charizard cannot eat a Banded Aqua Jet, and Noivern does not have anything to deal with Azumarill while it has Play Rough. I have not tested out your set but ....

I wouldn't say 436 attack is meh, he does have a 120 base attack fighting move and a 90 base atk fairy attack that's still pretty threatening unboosted. Most of Azumarill's weaknesses come from Special Attacks, when putting STAB into consideration are usually 1-2HKO's. The assault vest makes Azumarill take an extra hit from a lot of super effective attacks (3HKO instead of 2), making it easier to get a few surprise kills with the additional bulk. Most things that may not die in one hit due to having an Unboosted Waterfall or Playrough can usually be finished off by Aqua Jet and most dragon's get one shotted by Playrough anyway.

Personal preference though, I hate being locked into one move when it may force you to switch Pokemon if a dragon/grass type comes in to block your aqua jet and I don't always end up using Azumarill as an end-game sweeper. The only time I really wished I had choice band or mystic water was against toxic stall Gliscor roosting like crazy and half-health Charizard Y under drought.

 

[Larkas]

I wouldn't say 436 attack is meh, he does have a 120 base attack fighting move and a 90 base atk fairy attack that's still pretty threatening unboosted. Most of Azumarill's weaknesses come from Special Attacks, when putting STAB into consideration are usually 1-2HKO's. The assault vest makes Azumarill take an extra hit from a lot of super effective attacks (3HKO instead of 2), making it easier to get a few surprise kills with the additional bulk. Most things that may not die in one hit due to having an Unboosted Waterfall or Playrough can usually be finished off by Aqua Jet and most dragon's get one shotted by Playrough anyway.

Personal preference though, I hate being locked into one move when it may force you to switch Pokemon if a dragon/grass type comes in to block your aqua jet and I don't always end up using Azumarill as an end-game sweeper. The only time I really wished I had choice band or mystic water was against toxic stall Gliscor roosting like crazy and half-health Charizard Y under drought.

Hmmm... Could there be some merit in considering Expert Belt? Or even Life Orb?

 

[iQs__]

I wouldn't say 436 attack is meh, he does have a 120 base attack fighting move and a 90 base atk fairy attack that's still pretty threatening unboosted. Most of Azumarill's weaknesses come from Special Attacks, when putting STAB into consideration are usually 1-2HKO's. The assault vest makes Azumarill take an extra hit from a lot of super effective attacks (3HKO instead of 2), making it easier to get a few surprise kills with the additional bulk. Most things that may not die in one hit due to having an Unboosted Waterfall or Playrough can usually be finished off by Aqua Jet and most dragon's get one shotted by Playrough anyway.

Personal preference though, I hate being locked into one move when it may force you to switch Pokemon if a dragon/grass type comes in to block your aqua jet and I don't always end up using Azumarill as an end-game sweeper. The only time I really wished I had choice band or mystic water was against toxic stall Gliscor roosting like crazy and half-health Charizard Y under drought.

Choice-players always train their predictions to its finest. So you can say that the better your predictions are, the more useful Choice-items become. But yeah, being locked to 1 move is kinda suck, but everything has its pros and cons :) That's why I were saying the AV set looks interesting because it's new, it's unusual and it may work.

 

[DK Quagmire]

So iv'e been talking with a friend and he says why would anyone want to put a minimum investment of 84 into speed, just to out speed something like a Jellicent which hasn't even been released yet, and what benefit is it to the Battle maison, when all Pokemon in battle maison run a 252/ 252 of any 2 stats with whatever in another stat. and why would you go to have 132 speed, just to outspeed a Scizor with 8 in speed, when a scizor player, will most likely has 252 in speed. (Especially in Battle Maison)

its making me think that the 252 hp, and 252 atk spread would be better.