BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

[drampa's grandpa]

Are you crazy?!? I'm seriously starting to question your priorities E4 Flint. If anything needs banning / unbanning right now it's Unown.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-385575070
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-367884768

Look at how op Unown is. I gtg now post more later

 

[Deleted User 91486]

• Wonder Guard: I don't think that Wonder Guard should be unbanned. First, Wonder Guard makes improofing a pokemon extremely easy, since you just have to ensure that your Wonder Guard pokemon isn't weak to the moves of the mon it should improof.
  
• Also, a lot of pokemon have only a few weaknesses, like POgre, which is only weak to grass and electric, and when used in combination with a pokemon, that isn't weak to those types, like PDon, you have a duo that effectively can't be hit by any direct attack; however, you have to predict correctly when to switch which one of those two in.
  
• Unlike Sturdinja, you also don't die instantly when the opponent surprises you with a Moongeist Beam or Sunsteel Strike, and you also don't have to fear entry hazards and Rocky Helmets anymore (my POgre's Rocky Helmet has killed more shedinjas than anything else xD), since you can easily heal that chip damage off; while any status can be cured by a cleric. Also, the current BH metagame already is extremely biased towers bulky mons, despite APS still being around, and the introduction of Wonder Guard would only make the metagame even more defensive and lead to even more PP stall matches.
  
• Shadow Tag: Don't unban this. It isn't the same as Spirit Shackle/Anchor shot/Mean Look. Yes, it traps the opponent too, but you don't need to use a move for it, you just do this by switching your pokemon in. You can't switch out to a pokemon which knows a switching move or is a ghost to prevent getting trapped and eventually killed, because you are trapped as soon as the opponent switches his Shadow Tag pokemon in. While you need some prediction for using both trapping moves and Shadow Tag Gengar successfully (as it is extremely frail and doesn't like being switched into attacks), when packing Shadow tag onto some bulky mon like Registeel, Giratina and others, you can just switch into any mon that can't do enough damage to 2HKO you and remove it from the battle. By using stuff like Encore, you can also prevent switching moves from slower pokemon.
• Sturdinja: Don't ban this. It can be annoying, but it is countered so easily. Rocky Helmet, Hazards, Moongeist/Stuneel, Mold Breaker... all destroy Sturdinja with ease. If you have problems against Sturdinja, you should change something within your team.
• Imposter: Don't ban, but limit this to one per team. Imposter is a pretty useful imposter and surely a major threat in the metagme; but it is also one of the most reliable revengers, especially when used with a Choice Scarf and is also one of the best counters against APS teams. Imposter Chanseys and Blisseys are extremely bulky, but they have only 5 PP per move and, depending on their item are either good against defensove OR good against offensive. A scarfed imposter is not really good against defensive because it would like to switch between moves, something which can an eviolithe Chansey do - but she has to win the speed tie against offensive mons or gets at least severely damaged.
  
• That's also the main reason why I run two Imposters, one scarfed Blsisey and one eviolite Chansey, on my team. However, in my opinion, we should limit Imposters to one per team, the reason is that a team with two Imposters can't be PP stalled, which may lead to potentially endless battles. If one Imposter runs out of PP, the player just switches to his second imposter and has new PP. If he has only one imposter, he has to switch to another pokemon, which may take damage in the process and may be forced to use a recovery move to prevent fainting.

 

[aesf]

Glorious Leader E4 Flint, ladies and gentlemen: 13 years ago, chaos founded Smogon, speaking to the people of the smogon community and the world of pokemon in general. Well, many other leaders have come, each in his turn, to the Balanced Hackmons community. And today I, myself, make my second visit to the Balanced Hackmons community.

We come to Pokemon Showdown, we non-Balanced Hackmons players, because it's our duty to speak, in this place, of freedom. But I must confess, we're drawn here by other things as well: by the feeling of history in this website, more than 500 years older than our own nation; by the beauty of the shitposters and the shitmemers; most of all, by your courage and determination. Perhaps the moderator The Immortal understood something about Balanced Hackmons players. You see, like so many Tier leaders before me, I come here today because wherever I go, whatever I do: Ich hab noch einen Koffer in Balanced Hackmons. [I still have a suitcase in Balanced Hackmons].

Our gathering today is being broadcast throughout Western Europe and North America. I understand that it is being seen and heard as well in the East. To those listening throughout Eastern Europe, a special word: Although I cannot be with you, I address my remarks to you just as surely as to those standing here before me. For I join you, as I join your fellow countrymen in the West, in this firm, this unalterable belief: Es gibt nur ein Hackmons. [There is only one Hackmons.]

Behind me stands a banlist that encircles the free sectors of this metagame, part of a vast system of barriers that divides the entire continent of Other Metagames. From the Sketchmons ladder, the Anything Goes ladder, those bans cut across Other Metagames with bans on Water Bubble, Huge Power, and Shadow Tag. Farther away, in some obscure metagame like Gen 3 LC, there may be no visible, no obvious wall. But there remain armed tier leaders and ladder rankings all the same--still a restriction on the right to be the very best, still an instrument to impose upon ordinary men and women the will of a totalitarian state. Yet it is here in Other Metagames where the banlist emerges most clearly; here, cutting across your metagame, where the news photo and the television screen have imprinted this brutal division of a continent upon the mind of the world. Standing before Smogon.com, every man is a Hackmons player, separated from his fellow men. Every man is a pokemon player, forced to look upon a scar.

President Verbatim has said, "The Balanced Hackmons question is open as long as Other Metagames is closed." Today I say: As long as the gate is closed, as long as this scar of a banlist is permitted to stand, it is not the Balanced Hackmons question alone that remains open, but the question of freedom for all mankind. Yet I do not come here to lament. For I find in Other Metagames a message of hope, even in the shadow of this wall, a message of triumph.

In this season of spring in 2004, the people of the pokemon community emerged from their college dorms to find devastation. Thousands of miles away, the people of the privileged upper class reached out to help. And in 2011 or something, professional coder--as you've been told--Zarel announced the creation of what would become known as Pokemon Showdown. Speaking precisely 6 years ago this month, he said: "Our policy is directed not against any metagame or doctrine, but against hunger, poverty, desperation, and chaos."

In the Other Metagames staff chat a few moments ago, I saw a display commemorating this 6th anniversary of Pokemon Showdown. I was struck by the sign on a burnt-out, gutted structure that was being rebuilt. I understand that Balanced Hackmons players of my own generation can remember seeing signs like it dotted throughout the western sectors of the forum. The sign read simply: "Pokemon Showdown is helping here to strengthen the free world." A strong, free world in pokemon, that dream became real. OU rose from ruin to become an economic giant. UU, RU, NU--virtually every tier on smogon saw political and economic rebirth; the Pokemon Community was founded.

In the rest of the metagames and here in Balanced Hackmons there took place a miracle, the Wirtschaftswunder. Eevee General, The Immortal, Hollywood and other leaders understood the practical importance of liberty--that just as truth can flourish only when the journalist is given freedom of speech, so prosperity can come about only when the noob and tryhard tournament player enjoy economic freedom. The leaders reduced hax, expanded the range of available metagames, lowered the amount of shit memers. From 1950 to 1960 alone, the standard of living in Balanced Hackmons and civilized metagames doubled.

Where four decades ago there was rubble, today in civilized metagames there is the greatest industrial output of any city in the pokemon world--busy office blocks, fine homes and apartments, proud avenues, and the spreading lawns of parkland. Where a metagame's culture seemed to have been destroyed, today there are two great universities, orchestras and an opera, countless theaters, and museums. Where there was want, today there's abundance--food, clothing, automobiles--the wonderful goods of the Ku'damm. From devastation, from utter ruin, you Balanced Hackmoners have, in freedom, rebuilt a city that once again ranks as one of the greatest on earth. The CORRUPT OM LEADERS may have had other plans. But my friends, there were a few things the CORRUPT OM LEADERS didn't count on--Other Metagamer Herz, Other Metagamer, ja, und Other Metagamer Schnauze. [Berliner heart, Berliner humor, yes, and a Berliner Schnauze.]

In the 1950s, Zarel predicted: "We will bury you." But in Classic Hackmons today, we see a free world that has achieved a level of prosperity and well-being unprecedented in all human history. In the Balanced Hackmons world, we see failure, technological backwardness, declining standards of health, even want of the most basic kind--too little food. Even today, the SOCIETY MANAGED BY THE CORRUPT OM LEADERS still cannot feed itself. After these four decades, then, there stands before the entire world one great and inescapable conclusion: Freedom leads to prosperity. Freedom replaces the ancient hatreds among the nations with comity and peace. Freedom is the victor.

And now the SOCIETY MANAGED BY THE CORRUPT OM LEADERS themselves may, in a limited way, be coming to understand the importance of freedom. We hear much from the secrit OM Staff chat about a new policy of reform and openness. Some political prisoners have been released, including users such as RNGisCancer. Certain foreign news broadcasts are no longer being jammed. Some economic enterprises have been permitted to operate with greater freedom from state control.

Are these the beginnings of profound changes in the way we play Hackmons? Or are they token gestures, intended to raise false hopes in the rest of the pokemon community, or to strengthen the CORRUPT OTHER METAGAME system without changing it? We welcome change and openness; for we believe that freedom and security go together, that the advance of human liberty can only strengthen the cause of world peace. There is one sign the SOCIETY MANAGED BY CORRUPT OM LEADERS can make that would be unmistakable, that would advance dramatically the cause of freedom and peace.

General E4 FLINT, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the all of Other Metagames, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! E4 FLINT, TEAR DOWN THAT BANLIST! E4 FLINT, FREE WONDER GUARD AND MERGE BALANCED AND CLASSIC HACKMONS!

Thank you and God bless you all.

~this post has been endorsed by a glorious leader~​

 

[morogrim]

gr8 b8 m8 i r8 8/8

 

[Funbot28]

Brining back Classic Hackmons would be pretty dope ngl

 

[The Immortal]

Might as well call it Mampmons

 

[SadisticMystic]

ULTIMATE IMPOSTER-PROOF WONDER GUARD BREAKER (Metagross-Mega) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magnet Pull
Adamant Nature
-Memento
-Belch
-Heal Pulse
-empty slot

Of course, this thing could do with a bit more oomph to do what it's supposed to do, so perhaps unbanning Huge Power is worth a test drive?

 

[highlighter]

Guys can we ban cacturne

 

[E4 Flint]

Regrettably, the suspect on Wonder Guard is canceled due to lack of interest.

And you plebs were too obvious. The fun is in the outrage​

 

[Lcass4919]

so chatters still a potential unban right?

 

[Rumors]

E4 Flint

To be honest, I almost fell for it since I've been so busy I didn't notice the date right away. Had I been at home, I would have probably posted a long explanation of why Wonder Guard is bad before realizing. (Granted, there are some neat strategies it would allow though.) However, everyone's silly responses and outrage from missing the joke did help me get through a hellish day at work, so I can certainly appreciate it.

 

[Deleted User 91486]

Do you think that Shadow Tag Gengar should get banned? Shadow Tag itself is already banned, but it still can be used on Gengar by using a Gengarite for mega-evolving.

The difference between other trappers that use anchor shot, thousand waves or similar moves to trap, is, that Gengar traps as soon as it is switched in, so that you can't switch out to prevent getting trapped in the next turn. Due to being able to use 252 EVs in every stat, Mega Gengar gets actually usable bulk, and it can use a recovery move to stay healthy and encore to lock the opponent in their last-used move, preventing him from escaping with u-turn or volt switch or using super-effective moves like Spectral Thief or Moongeist Beam.

When playing against a team with a Shadow Tag Gengar, I usually end up switching between Zygarde and Giratina, which are my only two mons that can't get trapped, because otherwise I would lose one mon to Gengar - but sometimes I have to switch to another pokemon to check a specific threat, which might get trapped simply by switching Gengar into my recovery move - and if I don't recover health, my check might no longer be a check to that pokemon.
It may be possible to play around it with an offensive team, because it still doesn't like taking too much damage, but it seems like it completely shuts down defensive-orientated teams like mine.

In regular Ubers, Shadow Tag Gengar is a huge threat too, but it is stuck with Disable and Taunt, so that it can't prevent U-turns and volt-switches. It also doesn't have access to recovery moves, so that it can easily be worn down throughout the battle. In BH however, as I said, it doesn't suffer from these flaws, as it can use whatever move it wants.

So, I would like to see a suspect test for Shadow Tag Gengar ^^

 

[Rumors]

I didn't want to double post, but... since it's been a few days, I feel like it'd be okay. Anyway, there's been a few things I want to discuss. I feel these might be suspect worthy, but I'm not 100% sure. However, I am extremely confident they are discussion worthy. Specifically, I'm talking about some moves with really game changing impacts and very little counterplay. Especially since there's no way to predict these moves. Almost every viable Pokemon can come up with some set that can make use of any of the following moves, so you never know it's there until it's too late or your Imposter manages to spot it safely. There's three types, lemme break it down.


1. Permanent Trap Attacks. Specifically referring to Anchor Shot, Spirit Shackle, and Thousand Waves. On April Fool's, I jokingly said they were not different than Shadow Tag. While that's not quite true, as they're not as potent, these moves are still ridiculously strong. Anchor Shot has zero immunities, meaning the only counter play is to be a Ghost, have a pivot move aside Baton Pass, have a shuffle move, have a Shed Shell, be behind a Substitute, and similar, or wonky stuff like running Anchor Shot Imprison. Spirit Shackle and Thousand Waves add type-based immunities, but it's a very narrow range of Normals and Flying. And Levitate users, but they're uncommon since Thousand Arrows doesn't give a damn.

The problem here is the low risk, high reward trapping effect which can win a game the moment the move is revealed if done at the perfect time against the right team. Usually it doesn't lead to direct victory, but it damn sure nullifies the vast majority of the victim's options. Plus, if you've been watching BH Open, you've probably seen some cases where Anchor Shot leads to dumb stuff like two walls trapping each other and engaging in a 80+ turn slap fight until someone finally Struggles. I don't find any of these instances to be healthy for the metagame.

Similar moves in Spider Web and clones aren't as bad since they are blocked by Magic Bounce/Coat, which can cause a massive backfire by trapping yourself, and can be stopped by Taunt. And partial trapping, like Infestation is temporary, giving the trapper a narrow window to do its thing and for the victim to have a chance at freedom eventually.


2. Core Enforcer. The only counter play to this ability is be a Fairy type, go second (and still potentially take a bunch of damage if the user is something like Dialga), Normalize Entrainment, or Core Enforcer Imprison. You can also have a one-shot ability, like Drizzle or Intimidate, but those seem to be somewhat rarely used at best. This one's more straight forward: slap it on any slow Pokemon and pop goes the opponents ability. They can't even Substitute against it. Or normal switch either since the move counts switches too. This puts even more emphasis on U-Turn, which, as much as I like Volturn, is way too damn prolific in the tier because of all the crap forcing everyone to run it. (It's okay U-Turn, its not your fault.)

Similar moves are, again, not as potent. All are vulnerable to Taunt and only Skill Swap bypasses Substitute and Magic Bounce/Coat. And none of them do damage, let alone having one of the highest base powers without drawbacks for a typing.


3. And least worrisome, Spectral Thief. Now, this one isn't bad since its secondary effect is useless against Pokemon without boosts. However, the fact that it bypasses Substitute means the only real counterplay are Normal-types, Normalize Entrainment, and Spectral Thief Imprison. It also means certain play styles, like Baton Pass, are practically useless in a meta saturated with this move unless they do some wonky shenannigans like only running Normals or using Imprison. Also, some really strong Pokemon can just keep boosting and bopping the thief and eventually break through, but this is match-up reliant at best.

Once more, similar moves are not as potent. Haze, Heart Swap, Topsy-Turvy, Power Swap, Guard Swap... am I forgetting one? Anyway, all of them, unless I'm forgetting something, are Taunt bait. Topsy-Turvy can be bounced. Heart Swap and Topsy Turvy do not have 100% effectiveness against things like Shell Smash or in situations where the victim suffered an unrelated stat drop somewhere. Haze, as is commonly said, can only delay a stubborn set-up sweeper with its large amounts of PP. Topsy is blocked by Substitute. Power/Guard Swap only target one set of stats and do not grab speed.


If you're wondering here if I'm going to bring up Knock Off? Well, it's close and you guys can discuss it if you want. But the fact it loses half of its power if the opponent has no item or an unremovable item, items are rarely as potent as moves or abilities (and some of the ones that can be are immune to Koff anyway), and its utility is only useful for a maximum of six times per match, rather than a maximum for how much PP of the move the team has, means its not quite as strong in my eyes.


Anyway, I wanted to bring this up and talk about them, see what others think. I'm leaning suspect worthy enough myself to bring it up, but not so much to be stubbornly attached to that stance. ...it's also why I'm bringing up all three groups, even though I'm confident a suspect would handle them similarly.

 

[AbuseroftheBroken]

So, I would like to see a suspect test for Shadow Tag Gengar ^^

I like its presence just BECAUSE it stops people from using Stall heavy teams, which I just do not like. Most offensive teams have multiple natural answers to it, such as Speed-boosting Sweepers like the ungodly PH Regigigas, naturally faster mons like MMY, and tanky Pivots that generally just switch in to U-turn/Volt Switch/Parting Shot out so an offensive mon can safely get onto the field; I personally haven't lost a mon to it due to that very reason.

That being said, as much as I love a mon that invalidates Stall, I do agree with Semako. I also have personally noted this oddly legal item on Showdown after watching The Ruby Kitty use it, and after AkalaKahunaMallow used it against me. Gengarite should be banned because Shadow Tag is uncompetitive, and being able to kill something just by switching in is the same reason Innards Out was banned too. Also, I recall this same conversation in Gen 6 BH (correct me if I'm wrong) that also called for its ban, and based on my memory, there was no disagreement against that then.

I would also like to point this out before others use it as a reason to either ban Mawilite/Medichamite/Kangaskhanite, or keep Gengarite in BH:
Huge Power/Pure Power is banned while Mawilite/Medichamite is not, because Mega Mawile and Mega Medicham have piss poor offensive stats without those abilities, and also do not get to use an item. In the end, this cancels out the raw power the broken abilities give, and make it more in line with other powerful wallbreakers/sweepers. This is a similar argument for Parental Bond Vs. Kangaskhanite. However, Shadow Tag's power comes from a different aspect of the game, and being restricted to M-gar without an item doesn't stop it from being cancerous and doing its job of effortlessly killing mons.

Tl;dr Suspect Gengarite, its uncompetitive and unhealthy for the Meta.

 

[AbuseroftheBroken]

1. I personally don't see too much of a problem with these attacks, mainly due to how ubiquitous U-Turn/Volt Switch/Parting Shot are on most walls, and how trapping most offensive mons is difficult since they rarely switch directly in. It is also a nice scare against Imposters, causing people to think twice before switching in their Imposter on EVERYTHING and scouting your sets, which is pure BS. It also doesn't really touch most Perish Trap sets, which can just run Infestation instead. Honestly, I find Gengarite to be a bigger problem than these moves, since Encore Perish-Trap on switch-in is way more broken in my humble opinion.

2. Meh? Core Enforcer has never been a problem in BH, and is a nice way to answer annoying Ate spamming and can disable Prank Dbonding as well as stop lul Poison Heal Sweepers, which is nice. In my opinion, Core Enforcer is like Landorous-T and Rotom-W in BW/ORAS OU, a nice blanket check to some disgusting, abusable mechanics in the Meta.

3. Spectral Thief is also what I would consider a blanket check to a large margin of annoying, broken set-up sweepers. Like Imposter, it deters good players from spamming set-up moves. I seriously do not see this as a legitimate suspect at all, since the only playstyle it neuters, Baton Pass, has answers to it like Normal types, as you said. There is no lack of good Normal types (Arceus, Regigigas, Slaking, Audino-M to name a few), and running them is no different from running Magic Bounce to counter Whirlwind and Taunt.

You wanted some opinions on the matter, so here's mine. :)

 

[Deleted User 91486]

I don't think that those are suspect-worthy.

• Trapping Moves: as soon as the trapper switches in, you can switch to a pokemon that can't be trapped or can defeat the trapper, like PDon against steels. (Parting Shot doesn't work, because it is blocked by Soundproof, which is run by a lot of Perish Trappers.) Yes, it can be annoying, but there's simply too much counterplay to it, and as soon as anchor shot has been revelaed, the trapper is useless due o the opponent knowing about it.
• Shadow Tag Gengar however should be suspected, because it traps as soon as it switches in, and this combined with encore is nothing but uncompetitive and renders “counterplay“ useless.
• Core Enforcer: is the most reliable way to remove some annoying abilities like PH or ates. It is the only move with this effect that cannot be taunted and can be run with an Assault Vest. You can easily play around it, because Fairies like Audino and Diancie are immune to it and it has limited PP, which can be stallledin out. It also does only little damage to common RegenVest users like Registeeel, Solgaleo, Steelix... so that they don't care about their lost ability and can proceed with a slow u-turn to bring another mon in safely.
• Spectral Thief: The only move that stops setup sweepers and can be run on RegenVest users. A combination of Unaware and Thief may be possible, but not reallly viable due to Moongeist Beam and Stored Power Trip. Spectral Thief itself shuts down only one playstyle, baton passing, but they can carry answers to it like a normal type. Other playstyles aren't affected that much by it, since it doesn't reliably stop sweepers due to not being affected by Prankster and due to Unaware being not really viable, as I said. The most relisble options to stop sweepers are still Prankter Haze and Dbond, and Imposters and other revengers.

 

[motherlove]

• Core Enforcer: is the most reliable way to remove some annoying abilities like PH or ates. It is the only move with this effect that cannot be taunted and can be run with an Assault Vest. You can easily play around it, because Fairies like Audino and Diancie are immune to it and it has limited PP, which can be stallledin out. It also does only little damage to common RegenVest users like Registeeel, Solgaleo, Steelix... so that they don't care about their lost ability and can proceed with a slow u-turn to bring another mon in safely.

Ya I think the main point was that it's not easy to play around, there are like 3 maybe 4 good fairy types in BH, at least half are super passive and most good teams don't run more than one fairy type anyway. Core has 16 pp which I wouldn't really call limited, it's not the best but is definitely enough in most scenarios unless you battle stall. And the common counterplay you mention is regenvest users who lose regen upon switching in and therefor isn't a counterplay at all to core.
And "It is the only move with this effect that cannot be taunted and can be run with an Assault Vest" just seems to me like you're trying to show how op it is and how there's literally no cost to running it on every mon. Which makes pp matter even less.

 

[SuperSkylake]

I believe that a suspect test on shell smash is of a higher priority than a suspect test on any other move right now. It's insanely splashable as any offensive momn can run it. Besides the obvious dazzling/qm mons there are lots of other mons that can run it too. I just fought a psychic surge magic guard primal groudon running bonemerang/light of ruin/flair blitz. There is literally 0 switchins to that. Something has to die. If an imposter loses the sped tie it dies. The only way to RK that is with water shuriken, even after the defense drops. And the fact that like, every single offensive mon's semi official analysis mentions that it can run shell smash should be enough evidence that the move is insanely splashable and requires only a modicum of skill to use.

 

[Funbot28]

The thing is, I really cannot fathom the "broken" aspect of Core Enforcer here. Unless its a PH mon (which believe me I don't mind having this method to get around them being present), supressing the ability of a mon is not totally game changing as some make it out to be. Yes it can be annoying for -Ates and Tinted Lens users, but in all honeslty slow pivoting is one of the best flowcharts in playing right now and can help circumvent the effects of CE (from users like Gira and Zyggy-C). Some offensive threats do rely on their abilities at times to get past conventianal checks, but I feel like we would be creating a generalization to say that this is always the case. Standard coverage options are still a consistent way to hit checks, no matter if the attackers ability is removed or not. Maybe I am missing the bigger picture but nothing screams broken to me about this move, its just annoying.

Also if you want to make the case about trapping in BH, I feel you would have much stronger arguments about suspecting Gengarite then trapping moves (although I still dont think Stag Gar is that OP). Spectral Thief is fine and actually quite healthy for the meta.

And yeh Shell Smash is dumb, pls remove :/

 

[RNGIsFatal]

1. Permanent Trap Attacks.

2. Core Enforcer.

3. Spectral Thief.

1. I won't say this is an issue. If you have played BH for sufficient amount of time, you will know this problem can be alleviated by carrying switching moves, and switching moves have many other uses besides this, which one of them is crucial momentum that allows offensive 'mon to come in without harm.

About trapping each other, this isn't problem either in my perspective: trapping moves is one of the factors that reduce the problems around Imposter. If you don't want stuff like 100+ turns of pp stall to happen, and if you are knowledgeable enough, you might want to scout their moveset using Magic Bounce user who commonly carry switching move or sending Imposter and switch right out if you spot something like Anchor Shot, Thousand Waves, or Volt Switch against a Ground-type.

Also my thoughts about Gengarite (Shadow Tag),
this is one of the most underrated threats. This can be used with Perish Song to eliminate foes in a way that is not called "OHKO with sheer power" or "chipping down health". But the user must bear with a regular Gengar which has horrendous stats in BH standards, forcing it to stick to Gengarite, and safely Mega Evolve (although this can be done easily with Illusion). This is deadly, but it does not make metagame uncompetitive since this is limited to one 'mon and requires very skillful play to be utilized.

2. Just because the ability-nullifying trait of the move is an annoyance does not mean it is unhealthy for the metagame or banworthy. This move does next to no damage when the passive foes like Registeel or Audino uses it, when faster foes who can utilize the BP and the typing of the move, such as Mega Rayquaza, they can't benefit from its potential secondary effect due to their fast speed tier. I believe this is rather positive factor of metagame that keeps everyone from spamming Poison Heal and Regenerator.

3. Spectral Thief. We rather need this. This move is the move that alleviated APS spams before EV limit removal (and after), and this discourages every 'mon from spamming stuff like Simple Shell Smash or Geomancy. This is another factor that weakens Poison Heal to some degree.

Overall, you are pointing out stuff that seems to be broken in your perspective. But in reality, (I would normally say "I believe" or I "think", but in this case I won't) all three moves you mentioned are one of the most crucial moves that check the other broken stuff.

Anchor Shot discourages Imposter from coming in and pp stalling for 20 turns and switching out to refresh PP.

Core Enforcer made Poison Heal less threatening; Primal Kyogre was banned last gen due to its Poison Heal set being nearly unstoppable, but Core Enforcer, along with Spectral Thief allowed everyone to check them with ease.

Spectral Thief... pretty much what I argued above. I believe most other people think the same way/

Above.

I have been posting lots of reasons why Shell Smash is a potent issue in the metagame in THIS POST and THIS POST. There were couple of reply relaying my stance and reasoning, but they were buried and stopped thanks to 20+ posts about April fools about unbanning Wonder Guard. I hope anyone who is interested in knowing what is unhealthy for current metagame presses the hyperlink, because I see Shell Smash as one of the most negative components of the current BH meta.

 

[Kadabrium]

core enforcer, poison heal and spectral thief go hand in hand; the first two is probably marginally more Op than the latter, but if any one of them become banned at least on of the remaining two will go out of hand.
spectral thief limits teambuilding and gives normal type sweepers an unfair advantage due to it outclassing every other form of boost removal, being capable of dealing damage, self-stacking and not stopped by sub/taunt/assault vest. If poison heal is banned, nothing will able to boost up in front of basically any defensive or ghost stab pokemon.
core enforcer is the only blanket check to poison heal that is not otherwise a situational gimmick. Like spectral thief is to ghost, it is also one of the most reliable dragon moves even without the additional effect. It The combination of shadow thief and core banisher is also the reason audino, which otherwise has bad stats overall, has risen to one of the most spammable defensive pokemon.


how to stop aps:
prankster haze, prankster destiny bond,
core on the turn it sets up+priority,
any status,
any unaware, sash, anything that takes 1 hit and can thief/ko back since it only needs to take one such hit the whole game
imposter at least 50% with sash broken;

now how many of those work against poison heal?
even prankster and unaware is not always reliable since they often have a spare moveslot to carry status, and can simply switch out if it finds itself temporarily walled since it wont take any damage in the process and can come back in at any time.
heart swap is not stackable, and topsy turvy gives it a free turn to status whatever comes in.
Aps often needs to take a huge hit to setup, completely losing the capability to switch in again, and then is still beaten by any unaware/prankster/sash.

The only thing comparable in brokenness to poison heal is perhaps normalize gengar. aps is far from that level.

 

[Rumors]

I just wanna nitpick a couple of things before work.

I don't think that those are suspect-worthy.

• Trapping Moves: as soon as the trapper switches in, you can switch to a pokemon that can't be trapped or can defeat the trapper, like PDon against steels.

1. I won't say this is an issue. If you have played BH for sufficient amount of time, you will know this problem can be alleviated by carrying switching moves, and switching moves have many other uses besides this, which one of them is crucial momentum that allows offensive 'mon to come in without harm.

As I pointed out, you can't necessarily switch as soon as the trapper switches in as you can't accurately predict an Anchor Shot since nearly anything can run it on at least one set. Once you know, yeah, it's a little different. But how do you know an opposing, say, Triage Ray is running Anchor Shot or not?

As for "just run U-Turn", I say "Just run Water Absorb".

Overall, you are pointing out stuff that seems to be broken in your perspective. But in reality, (I would normally say "I believe" or I "think", but in this case I won't) all three moves you mentioned are one of the most crucial moves that check the other broken stuff..

The "don't ban because it checks broken stuff" arguement still not allowed to be valid. Otherwise I would have mentioned stuff like PH.



Also, for not mentioning Shadow Tag in general, I didn't because I've been a broken record on that for years. I don't like the loophole megastones as is and would quickban 'em if given a chance.

 

[SomeIrish]

I like its presence just BECAUSE it stops people from using Stall heavy teams, which I just do not like. Most offensive teams have multiple natural answers to it, such as Speed-boosting Sweepers like the ungodly PH Regigigas, naturally faster mons like MMY, and tanky Pivots that generally just switch in to U-turn/Volt Switch/Parting Shot out so an offensive mon can safely get onto the field; I personally haven't lost a mon to it due to that very reason.

That being said, as much as I love a mon that invalidates Stall, I do agree with Semako. I also have personally noted this oddly legal item on Showdown after watching The Ruby Kitty use it, and after AkalaKahunaMallow used it against me. Gengarite should be banned because Shadow Tag is uncompetitive, and being able to kill something just by switching in is the same reason Innards Out was banned too. Also, I recall this same conversation in Gen 6 BH (correct me if I'm wrong) that also called for its ban, and based on my memory, there was no disagreement against that then.

I would also like to point this out before others use it as a reason to either ban Mawilite/Medichamite/Kangaskhanite, or keep Gengarite in BH:
Huge Power/Pure Power is banned while Mawilite/Medichamite is not, because Mega Mawile and Mega Medicham have piss poor offensive stats without those abilities, and also do not get to use an item. In the end, this cancels out the raw power the broken abilities give, and make it more in line with other powerful wallbreakers/sweepers. This is a similar argument for Parental Bond Vs. Kangaskhanite. However, Shadow Tag's power comes from a different aspect of the game, and being restricted to M-gar without an item doesn't stop it from being cancerous and doing its job of effortlessly killing mons.

Tl;dr Suspect Gengarite, its uncompetitive and unhealthy for the Meta.

I personally don't see Gengarite being all that good, it sacrifices an item and is outsped by mmy and adamant scarf base 90 speed pokemon like Pdon. Even if they catch your wall there is still a good chance you can get out if it's healthy by using Core Enforcer, volt-turn or baton pass, or finishing it off. It loses to priority and faster mons if you can get them out. Sure it's annoying but it's not broken.

 

[SuperSkylake]

The problem isn't even the anti priority anymore. It's shell smash. Bulky shell smashers like p don are on the rise now and they can easily eat up priority moves, the defensive answers like haze are super passive against them too, and your checks to setup usually get totally worn down after checking one setup sweeper. They can easily be overpowered and worn down by wallbreakers and then the shell smash user has a field day. Minimal skill required, I'm not even joking.

 

[AbuseroftheBroken]

I personally don't see Gengarite being all that good, it sacrifices an item and is outsped by mmy and adamant scarf base 90 speed pokemon like Pdon. Even if they catch your wall there is still a good chance you can get out if it's healthy by using Core Enforcer, volt-turn or baton pass, or finishing it off. It loses to priority and faster mons if you can get them out. Sure it's annoying but it's not broken.

It's mainstay is Encore, Perish Song, King's Shield, Recovery Move. If it catches you using anything that doesn't hurt too much or doesn't hurt at all, you will lose that mon unless its faster. That is 100% broken, since Tank/Wall mons have to be forced to attack/switch out or risk instantly dying to S-Tag M-Gar. It also normally runs Illusion to decieve the opponent into thinking they are safe. This even allows it to lock mons into using Set-up moves. There is also Sticky Web to take into account, which I have seen on AkalaKahunaMallow's team. Of course, as you said, Offense doesn't mind too much, but Defensively oriented teams get absolutely ripped apart by it, to an absolutely ridiculous extent.