BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

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As long as we have core enforcer, it should be allowed, I think. But if Core Enforcer gets banned, PH should be suspect tested.
However, more important than PH/Core Enforcer/Trapping moves suspects are the suspects for STag Gengar and Shell Smash.
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
Not minimoding. Just general comment:

We might not want to discuss about how banning stuff affects the other. Instead, I believe discussing what components of the metagame will be unhealthy (i.e. Needs very specific check that has no use outsides checking certain threat, gimmicks.)

Also when we want to assert why something is broken / banworthy, we need to explain how it forces everyone to run counters for such thing or it makes metagame unhealthy, or even how it violates principles in E4 Flint's first post in general.
 
I'm not sure about it. It has never been as powerful as today with both full evs and all the new abusers and so much more coverage options over gen5.
Actually, PH isn't. Sure, Cgarde is a new user and the Primals get to experience full EVs + PH for the first time, but PH as a whole is definitely not at its strongest. In Gen V, it was absolutely nasty for a myriad of reasons that wound up making PH Gigas/Slaking THE threat to prepare for since it could easily destroy unprepared teams without even clicking a single set-up move (I can give you more details if you'd like, just not here since I'd veer off topic). Pre-ability clause Gen VI was utterly nasty too since, as someone who abused the hell out of PH pre-ability clause, it was one of the few abilities that could be spammed super hard without getting rendered moot by one or two checks/counters. You'd need like... 4ish Pokemon dedicated to countering with PH to beat a 6 PH team.

These days, PH is strong, but it always was one of the best general purpose abilities. However, as much as I'm harping on the move, Core Enforcer makes it much less effective. Even without it, Merciless and Purify exist now to make PH users' lives miserable too. You have more options now without resorting to stupid crap like Pecha Trick or Natural Cure Entrainment.
 
I'm here to talk about something that everyone who knows me probably saw coming a while ago: Protean. In specific, I'm here to talk about why it should be unbanned. Hope you all like essays.

First off, I think it's important to note that Protean has only really gained one thing of value between gens. Most of the changes help it not one iota; Psychic Surge and Dazzling infringe upon it (more on that later), Sunsteel Strike doesn't allow the physical Protean sets to defeat any new mons, and Moongheist Beam is at best a mediocre coverage option on the special sets. Even Core Enforcer is largely overshadowed by Moonblast in terms of super effective coverage, especially since the wallbreaking sets that would get the most mileage out of stopping abilities would much prefer to click Boomburst. The new Pokemon are also not a concern, as they are largely irrelevant with Protean; even Pheromosa is just a worse Deoxys-A with 1 more speed, and Deo-A was already irrelevant. The primals did have some Protean lures, but they were little more than that and generally much less effective than the ordinary Protean users.

While obviously this gen isn't the same as last gen, for the reasons I outlined above I think it's more than fair to assume that the users of Protean will be largely the same this gen. Of these, there were 4: Mega Mewtwo Y, Mega Mewtwo X, Mega Rayquaza, and Mega Latios. The eon twins are largely irrelevant now that Soul Dew has been nerfed, so I will be discounting Latios in this breakdown.

First off, Mega Rayquaza. If it isn't already over the edge, Protean isn't enough to push it there. It is already insanely unpredictable, and has far too many viable sets: Tail Glow Triage, FakeSpeed, Choice Specs Aerilate, Contrary (and also the more specific SubSpore contrary by motherlove ), Shell Smash, and even Tough Claws Choice Band. There is already no answer for more than half of these sets, and while you may argue that Protean makes it worse, it's also generally less effective: Choice Band V-Create is far less spammable, and far more easily walled, than a Choice Specs Boomburst. Here, at least, the unpredictability isn't much of a calling card, and Mega Rayquaza was the least effective of the Protean users in gen 6 regardless.

For Mega Mewtwo X, things have gotten far worse between generations. In addition to the Pokemon that already walled it, from Giratina to Slowbro, it now has to contend with new foes. Of these, Zygarde-C is probably the worst; only Ice Hammer has even a chance to break, an unless Mega Mewtwo X gets the predict and the 8% (which can be negated by running leftovers), there’s nothing Mega Mewtwo X can do, - and Zygarde on pretty much half of teams (not to mention being on just about every stall team). Sets like Fur Coat Primal Kyogre and Buzzwhole should also not be discounted. Since Multi-Attack is just bad, Mega Mewtwo X will always get forced out by imposter, so it's not like Mega Mewtwo X is a balance or bulky offense breaker either.

Mega Mewtwo Y is the only truly contentious Protean user of the bunch. It already has Contrary, Sheer Force, and Psychic Surge sets, just as Mega Rayquaza has other sets, and was the most powerful and versatile of last generations Protean users. There is a solid argument to be made that in order for Protean to be unbanned, Mega Mewtwo Y would have to be banned. However, I feel this isn't ultimately neccesary, as Mega Mewtwo Y has also suffered between generations. The so called “unwallable” set of Life Orb Boomburst/Earth Power/Moonblast/Kings Sheild has new answers; instead of just niche Pokemon at full health and Chansey, it now has Celesteela, Lunala (if people ran this), RegenVest Primal Kyogre, Chansey, aand assorted niche pokemon. Furthermore, it's niche as a breaker is much lower, as it can't threaten nearly as many Pokemon with OHKOs, as Regigigas/PHOgre/SashSmash can just set up on it and then KO it instead. The imposterproof set of Ghost Judge+Secret Sword+Filler is already prepared for, as Mega Gengar runs it, and is in fact easier to deal with using mons like Primal Kyogre since you do not need to fear the coming Entrainment.

Last generation, Protean was decried for destroying offense; it was fast, powerful, and hard to revenge KO thanks to King’s Sheild. Now, however, we can see what it means to actually be immune to revenge killing with Anti Priority Setup, and Protean doesn't even come close. Unlike Sash Smash or Psysurge, you just need to weaken it for priority or run a scarfer.

TL;DR: Protean is has not gained anything of significance between generations, and has lost quite a bit. The general power level is also much higher, and roles Protean used to hold completely like wallbreaker are done better by Pokemon such as Mega Rayquaza. The removal of EV limits was also a significant blow to it, and it's enough worse to be worthy of a suspect test and reintroduction.
 

MAMP

MAMP!
I'm here to talk about something that everyone who knows me probably saw coming a while ago: Protean. In specific, I'm here to talk about why it should be unbanned. Hope you all like essays.

First off, I think it's important to note that Protean has only really gained one thing of value between gens. Most of the changes help it not one iota; Psychic Surge and Dazzling infringe upon it (more on that later), Sunsteel Strike doesn't allow the physical Protean sets to defeat any new mons, and Moongheist Beam is at best a mediocre coverage option on the special sets. Even Core Enforcer is largely overshadowed by Moonblast in terms of super effective coverage, especially since the wallbreaking sets that would get the most mileage out of stopping abilities would much prefer to click Boomburst. The new Pokemon are also not a concern, as they are largely irrelevant with Protean; even Pheromosa is just a worse Deoxys-A with 1 more speed, and Deo-A was already irrelevant. The primals did have some Protean lures, but they were little more than that and generally much less effective than the ordinary Protean users.

While obviously this gen isn't the same as last gen, for the reasons I outlined above I think it's more than fair to assume that the users of Protean will be largely the same this gen. Of these, there were 4: Mega Mewtwo Y, Mega Mewtwo X, Mega Rayquaza, and Mega Latios. The eon twins are largely irrelevant now that Soul Dew has been nerfed, so I will be discounting Latios in this breakdown.

First off, Mega Rayquaza. If it isn't already over the edge, Protean isn't enough to push it there. It is already insanely unpredictable, and has far too many viable sets: Tail Glow Triage, FakeSpeed, Choice Specs Aerilate, Contrary (and also the more specific SubSpore contrary by motherlove ), Shell Smash, and even Tough Claws Choice Band. There is already no answer for more than half of these sets, and while you may argue that Protean makes it worse, it's also generally less effective: Choice Band V-Create is far less spammable, and far more easily walled, than a Choice Specs Boomburst. Here, at least, the unpredictability isn't much of a calling card, and Mega Rayquaza was the least effective of the Protean users in gen 6 regardless.

For Mega Mewtwo X, things have gotten far worse between generations. In addition to the Pokemon that already walled it, from Giratina to Slowbro, it now has to contend with new foes. Of these, Zygarde-C is probably the worst; only Ice Hammer has even a chance to break, an unless Mega Mewtwo X gets the predict and the 8% (which can be negated by running leftovers), there’s nothing Mega Mewtwo X can do, - and Zygarde on pretty much half of teams (not to mention being on just about every stall team). Sets like Fur Coat Primal Kyogre and Buzzwhole should also not be discounted. Since Multi-Attack is just bad, Mega Mewtwo X will always get forced out by imposter, so it's not like Mega Mewtwo X is a balance or bulky offense breaker either.

Mega Mewtwo Y is the only truly contentious Protean user of the bunch. It already has Contrary, Sheer Force, and Psychic Surge sets, just as Mega Rayquaza has other sets, and was the most powerful and versatile of last generations Protean users. There is a solid argument to be made that in order for Protean to be unbanned, Mega Mewtwo Y would have to be banned. However, I feel this isn't ultimately neccesary, as Mega Mewtwo Y has also suffered between generations. The so called “unwallable” set of Life Orb Boomburst/Earth Power/Moonblast/Kings Sheild has new answers; instead of just niche Pokemon at full health and Chansey, it now has Celesteela, Lunala (if people ran this), RegenVest Primal Kyogre, Chansey, aand assorted niche pokemon. Furthermore, it's niche as a breaker is much lower, as it can't threaten nearly as many Pokemon with OHKOs, as Regigigas/PHOgre/SashSmash can just set up on it and then KO it instead. The imposterproof set of Ghost Judge+Secret Sword+Filler is already prepared for, as Mega Gengar runs it, and is in fact easier to deal with using mons like Primal Kyogre since you do not need to fear the coming Entrainment.

Last generation, Protean was decried for destroying offense; it was fast, powerful, and hard to revenge KO thanks to King’s Sheild. Now, however, we can see what it means to actually be immune to revenge killing with Anti Priority Setup, and Protean doesn't even come close. Unlike Sash Smash or Psysurge, you just need to weaken it for priority or run a scarfer.

TL;DR: Protean is has not gained anything of significance between generations, and has lost quite a bit. The general power level is also much higher, and roles Protean used to hold completely like wallbreaker are done better by Pokemon such as Mega Rayquaza. The removal of EV limits was also a significant blow to it, and it's enough worse to be worthy of a suspect test and reintroduction.
even though i disagree with a lot of this, i feel there is a valid discussion to be had on protean. however, now really isn't the time for it -- there are a ton of things that are possibly banworthy in bh atm (primals, ray, prio blockers, gengarite, shell smash) that should probably be looked at, and i feel like the biggest issue with bh currently is that there are just too many powerful threats for any team to reliably be able to check them all. even if protean isn't broken, reintroducing it now will only exacerbate existing issues with the metagame. we gotta focus on balancing the current metagame before we even start to consider unbanning more potentially broken shit
 

morogrim

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I think that if Protean were to be unbanned, running mixed would be more popular than it was in gen6. Also, the movesets would probably vary a bit to adjust to the new walls of the current meta (except for swordjudg for obv reasons). I don't think it's correct to assess the performance of the old gen6 Protean sets for a gen7 meta without adjusting the sets themselves to the current meta. Honestly, for the current meta, I personally might even consider not running KS anymore in favor of additional coverage just because of the fact that -ate isn't being run that much anymore and also because wallbreaking is that much more important currently since the meta has shifted into a more bulky setup (one of the most obvious reasons for this being the EV limit removal). Below I have the more popular Mmy sets that were used in gen6 and also what I think would be the new sets for this gen:

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Secret Sword
- Boomburst / filler
- King's Shield

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Boomburst
- King's Shield

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Secret Sword
- Boomburst
- Quiver Dance / King's Shield

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Zap Plate
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam / Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Judgment
- Boomburst


As you can see, the swordjudg set would probably remain relatively similar but it will have the additional flexibility of running setup over KS. The main difference would be in the "ultimate wallbreaker" set where KS is replaced by Zapjudg (mainly for Celesteela and Pgre) and Moonblast by Ice Beam. This is because with Electric coverage, mons that Moonblast would have normally covered over Ice Beam are now covered by Judg instead (such as Yveltal and Mega Gyarados, although Yveltal is still covered by Ice Beam too). The exceptions to this would be Palkia and also Dark types that aren't weak to the other coverage options, such as Hoopa-U. Even so, BB is still a solid 2HKO on both (not to mention that neither are even that common atm). Additionally, Ice Beam gives Mmy the ability to 2HKO RegenVest Zygarde-c; something that Moonblast cannot do.

On a side note, Zapjudg and Earth Power could also be replaced by Tbolt and Earthjudg respectively.

Now let's take a look at the changes to the mixed Protean users: I think that Mega Ray might actually be even better than Mmy in gen7 just because of its ability to net more OHKOs than 2HKOs compared to Mmy.

Rayquaza-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Bolt Strike
- Ice Beam
- Boomburst / Sunsteel Strike


For this set, Boomburst rounds out the coverage for guaranteed 2HKOs on shaky targets such as Regigigas and FC Megabro. SSS is an alternative for Shedinja and FC Chansey while also being a solid check for Regigigas (Mega Audino is 2HKOd by both BB and SSS). This set is much harder to wall imo, but it is still possible to Improof. FC Chansey for example, is a good option for the non-SSS set (and also all of the Mmy sets), and FC Megabro (could go Volt Absorb if you are worried about Bolt Strike crits) could take care of the SSS set.

After looking at what an unbanned Protean could be capable of, I don't agree that it is ready to get unbanned yet. All of this being said, I do agree with MAMP that Protean shouldn't even be the next immediate focus for suspects since the Primals and other threats (refer here, I already talked about them before) still exist. I definitely agree that there are too many threats in the current meta to be able to reliably check them all, but I guess another topic of discussion could be if we even need to be able to reliably check all threats in BH?

On a completely unrelated note, I have also noticed that FC Chansey received a HUGE buff after the removal of EV limits since it can now afford to invest fully in HP as well as both Def and SpD. The only downside is the existence of SSS, but other than that FC Chansey is amazing atm.
 
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Protean got buffed in Gen 7. It got way better at setting up.

My personal favorite set;
Set 1
Shell Smash
Power Trip
Moonblast
Substitute / Sunsteel Strike / Imprison / Bonemerang

If faster you immune to Spectral Thief, Power Trip makes you immune to Prankster moves,
Moonblast prevents Core Enforcer and Dragon Tail.


More realistic sets;

Set 2
Shell Smash
Power Trip
Sunsteel Strike
Ice Beam / Steam Erruption

Walled by Unaware M-Gyra

Set 3
Shell Smash
Power Trip
Moongeist Beam
Earth Power

Walled by Unaware Yvnetal.

Set 4
Shell Smash
Moongeist Beam
Core Enforcer
Doom Desire

Walled by Sub M-Audino


The meta is perfectly fine, Flint can lock this topic randomly if he thinks so.
 

RNGIsFatal

Banned deucer.
First of all, I apologize for being repetitive about Shell Smash.

I previously asserted that the potential “slappability” of Shell Smash is what makes the move itself banworthy, since it can instantly turn any ‘mons into a threat. But this time, I found a different reason to consider Shell Smash banworthy.

Shell Smash itself is not unhealthy move in general. The flaw of defense drops force the user to run Focus Sash or White Herb or they must force themselves with Anti-priority to keep themselves from being revenge killed. But what makes it banworthy is its ability to worsen the broken component of the metagame further.

1. Paired with Protean

I noticed many people started talking about this, and I agree with MAMP that now is not the appropriate time to talk about it. But I decided to use this as an example.

Protean is already powerful with its mechanics of providing STAB for everything to the user, and if Shell Smash is paired with this, the user becomes a Normal-type, making themselves immune to Spectral Thief.

1. Shell Smash requires no skill to use, and it forces the preparation.

Many checks such as Prankster Haze have been developed, and the newly introduced move called Spectral Thief seemed to alleviate this issue. But they are sometimes not enough to stop sweepers.

Prankster Haze is forced to spam Haze until the setup sweeper decides to stop spamming Shell Smash and switch to something else, and this ends up messing up the momentum itself. Even Destiny Bond is sometimes not enough, especially against hyper-offensive teams with 3-4 different 'mons with access to Shell Smash.

Spectral Thief is a fantastic move that can be, or more precisely, should be stapled into most support 'mons to reduce their passivity. However, according to my experience, supports' movesets are in this structure:

- Recovery
- Switching moves
- Anti-setup
- Hazards or its control (Stealth Rock or Defog)

Recovery is self-explantory. Switching moves is crucially important in any BH teams because they need their wallbreakers / sweepers to safely switch in. But what about two other moveslots?

If you choose Haze for Anti-setup, you become VERY passive.
If you choose Topsy-Tursy or Encore, you become setup fodder for APS user.
If you choose Hazards as 4th moveslot, you become totally passive to Magic Bounce user.
If you choose Core Enforcer, you can stop PH users but someone has to die next turn after setup from APS.
If you choose Destiny Bond to stop out-of-control sweeper... I won't say how passive that is.

The truth is, due to setup-spams, support 'mons have hard time fitting anything into their slot. Even RegenVest users are forced to run Spectral Thief to stop Shell Smash.

I believe this is somewhat similar phenomenon as when Water Bubble existed, Water Absorb was chosen to stop the madness. Although Spectral Thief is much more viable outsides checking APS user (such as best physical Ghost-type coverage for sweepers), it is very irrelevant move to support 'mons outsides stealing potential APS boost. I won't describe a move causing other 'mons to sacrifice their moveslot to check it, as healthy.
This meta already forces most support roles to run Spectral Thief to reduce their passivity (preventing themselves from becoming a setup fodder), and if this way is no longer an option to stop the setup, what will initially stop the setup spams that comes out of nowhere and evades Spectral Thief with Protean? This is even closer to impossible if the user has Dazzling of QM to stop FakeSpeed which is the most viable way to break sashes.

2. Paired with APS

This has been a problem and we had complaints about this for ages. Once you allow setup with Focus Sash and Anti-priority, someone in your team has to die next turn or you have to send Imposter to take a hit, unless you concidentially have an exclusive check for that sweeper which is very unlikely to happen. This forces every BH teams to prepare for sudden setup, regardless of what kind of the archetype the team has.


TL;DR
Let's pay more attention to this move. We have tons of problems to discuss and we have been, and I believe this move already violates our banning philosophy a lot as well as it worsens the abilities that are already broken.
We were making productive discussions about the metagame but we haven't been regarding much about suspects and bans, in my perspective.

If we want fun stuff unbanned / annoying stuff banned, we have to consider what makes them broken or what will allow them to be reintroduced. I believe Shell Smash inhibits many potential bans and unbans.

I ran out of things to talk about. RIP
Someone please post a relay, whether it is disagreement or not.
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
let's talk about assist, and why I think it should be banned.

so as we all know, assist came into prominence last generation in the form of a team with 5 groudons and an imposter chansey. a lack of counterplay to the move caused it to swiftly be banned.

however, this generation a new toy has been introduced to stop it, namely anti-priority abilities. this means that offense has a new way to beat assist teams, and it has caused assist to fall into relative obscurity.

the reason why I think assist should still be banned, despite its fall from grace, is the fact that it still forces preparation for it on every team. a mon sturdy enough to survive banded thousand arrows while factoring in tinted lens/mold breaker is necessary on defensive teams, while offensive teams are forced to use anti-priority.

additionally, you can't overlook the fact that games featuring assist teams are more boring than watching paint dry. even the creator of the original assist team said that they only played a few games every day. this is because of the lack of skill required to use assist teams. the goal of the team is literally to click thousand arrows until the game is over. it's possible to create a flowchart for how to use an assist team in about one minute. in this regard, it's kind of like baton pass in ou. there's not really any skill in the teambuilding phase, either-- it's pretty much just the same mon 5 times with different abilities.

please note that this post was not made because I lost to an assist team. I never lose to assist teams because I always prepare for them. the problem is that I'm sick of losing to other teams because I had to run fur coat on a mon that shouldn't be running fur coat in the first place, because I had to slap a z crystal on a wall that would be better off with safety goggles. assist is an extremely constraining force that must be taken into account while teambuilding, and the lack of skill involved in using it means that there's no reason to keep it in the metagame. that is why I think that we should ban assist. thank you.
 
I think the other suspects (shell smash, Shadow Tag Gengar, maybe trapping moves...) are much more important. I have battled such a team only once - in hundreds of battles - and beat it easily, never thought “pls ban assist“.

It may be annoying, but there's no way to get past a Fur Coat Zygod using just 1k arrows.
Also, using only Groudons stacks weaknesses, so that the team can easily be swept by any pokemon that knows ground or water-type moves (assuming that the groudons don't run water aborb or dland).

Btw, there's no reason to run tinted lens with 1k arrows, because there are no viable ground resists for BH.
 
Semako every assistdon team i've ever seen has had both water absorb and moldy, specifically to counter water types and fur coat. Between those and trick band, assistdon teams are a little more versatile than you seem to believe. prankster is a good revenge killer, unaware can work to shut down sweeps with things that don't know sunsteel/moongeist/stored power/power trip, and these pdons still know other moves, because king's shield/spiky shield/phazing moves/trick aren't pulled by assist at all.
it's absolutely not worthy of a ban, let alone a ban before gengarite or aps, but i don't like spreading the notion that it's completely worthless.
 
Semako every assistdon team i've ever seen has had both water absorb and moldy, specifically to counter water types and fur coat. Between those and trick band, assistdon teams are a little more versatile than you seem to believe. prankster is a good revenge killer, unaware can work to shut down sweeps with things that don't know sunsteel/moongeist/stored power/power trip, and these pdons still know other moves, because king's shield/spiky shield/phazing moves/trick aren't pulled by assist at all.
it's absolutely not worthy of a ban, let alone a ban before gengarite or aps, but i don't like spreading the notion that it's completely worthless.
I guess you are not understanding how bulky is Zygod, not even considering Fur Coat.
252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zygarde-Complete: 214-253 (33.6 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This is probably the best Pdon can do on an Assist team. Fur Coat halves the damage, Z-Crystals stops trick. Zygod can sit on everything an Assist team can throw, heal if it switches, and develop counterplay.
Assist-don isn't threatening at all.
 
Assist probably isn't the most important right now, but it's definitely worth keeping in mind. After all, it took a couple of months of experimentation for people to come up with ORAS Assistdon. Given time, I'm sure someone will find the anti-meta assist set-up for S/M. I personally think Assist-Ogre would be more likely to form the cancer Assist team, or maybe something else.

Although, Zyggy doesn't often run Z-crystals from what I've seen, so I'm not sure how having a Zygy on your team reliably stops it from getting shut down by Trick.
 
Having a zyggy with a z crystal does, if people choose not to run it and lose to assist it's their problem, but that doesn't make assist broken.

Doesn't help that in full EV band groudon doesn't OHKO anything. Not Kyogre, not MMY, not rayquaza, not even opposing groudons. If it's adapt then you outspeed, if it's scarf then it's less powerful than band. Dark types are immune to prankster assist, psychic terrain means you can't use prankster assist altogether, ground resists just don't care, fur coat mons wall any non moldy, shedinja just deals with it altogether pretty well. There are ways.
 
ground resists just don't care,
the only ground resists i can think of that ive ever seen are triage hera and contrary msceptile. neither are especially big threats, since heracross deals no damage and sceptile is never improof. the rest of the post still stands, though i would like to note how well entrainment gengar shuts does assistdon teams w/o magic bounce. nothing can switch in, and you're completely useless if you're not running spooky or earth plate imposter. the only thing on most assistdon teams that can take down a gar is prankster, but rarely do teams run multiple and those are all hard walled by the presence of alolan rattata, or literally any other dark type.

about new assist teams forming, i can't imagine an assist ogre team would be at all good, since there are multiple immunity abilities for whatever stab move you choose, one of which can only be overrode by air lock, and if you are willing to run air lock on your assist team you should probably be reconsidering everything else. like, about your life overall.
 
Assist probably isn't the most important right now, but it's definitely worth keeping in mind. After all, it took a couple of months of experimentation for people to come up with ORAS Assistdon. Given time, I'm sure someone will find the anti-meta assist set-up for S/M. I personally think Assist-Ogre would be more likely to form the cancer Assist team, or maybe something else.

Although, Zyggy doesn't often run Z-crystals from what I've seen, so I'm not sure how having a Zygy on your team reliably stops it from getting shut down by Trick.
Giratina takes more damage, but it still is 3HKOed (very low chance of 2HKO, but Leftovers negates this). Giratina with Z-Parting Shot is viable and wins against every AssistDon I can think of, since they can't actually run nothing good but Thousand Arrows.
Offense can deal with that too. Fridge Boomburst from Kyu-W from a Choice Scarf will outspeed every Pdon, and if you throw psychic terrain support from, I don't know, MMY, then not even priority will save you.
Also offensive Prankster is bad. The best a Prankster AssistDon can use against Yveltal, to say one dark Type, is Dragon Tail. And if it's choiced, then you killed momentum.
AssistDon can't break a well played Zygarde; it lacks the tools for that. Maybe Zygarde will be incapacitated. Sometimes. But that is. This is why it will never be broken.
 
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Having a zyggy with a z crystal does, if people choose not to run it and lose to assist it's their problem, but that doesn't make assist broken.

Doesn't help that in full EV band groudon doesn't OHKO anything. Not Kyogre, not MMY, not rayquaza, not even opposing groudons. If it's adapt then you outspeed, if it's scarf then it's less powerful than band. Dark types are immune to prankster assist, psychic terrain means you can't use prankster assist altogether, ground resists just don't care, fur coat mons wall any non moldy, shedinja just deals with it altogether pretty well. There are ways.
252 SpA Groudon-Primal Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 792-932 (124.5 - 146.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO :thinking:
Freeze Shock also Koes if you are mold breaker, but this doesnt require you to broadcast anything. Z-moves are honestly a blessing for assist, as it allows Groudon to use moves that cant be called by assist in a single turn. Obviously, this requires the Primal Groudon player to succesfully predict, but since Zygarde is almost certainly being used as an assist wall (or else it doesnt matter), its prey for any Z-move user. Zygarde as the sole check to assist also leaves it vulnerable to running out of PP, either via attacks or chansey. Zygarde alone isnt enough, you also need the rest of your team to at least soft check assist. Obviously, I dont think assist is banworthy atm, but I think youve gone a bit too far in the other direction.
 
The only way to have a 200BP Subzero Slammer is by including Freeze Shock or Ice Burn directly in your movelist, and while the Z-move is something that Assist can't call, neither of those base attacks (nor any other Ice move for that matter) is present on the Assist exclusion list, so you can't help but have your teammates' Assists diluted by being able to call that move, complete with its helpless charge turn, instead of Thousand Arrows on occasion.
 
The only way to have a 200BP Subzero Slammer is by including Freeze Shock or Ice Burn directly in your movelist, and while the Z-move is something that Assist can't call, neither of those base attacks (nor any other Ice move for that matter) is present on the Assist exclusion list, so you can't help but have your teammates' Assists diluted by being able to call that move, complete with its helpless charge turn, instead of Thousand Arrows on occasion.
Yeah, thats my bad for not checking; I shouldnt have assumed it works like all other 2 turn moves. Either way, though, zygarde shouldnt wall a well built assist team entirely, as they can run one of refridgerate (252+ SpA Choice Specs Refrigerate Groudon-Primal Nature Power vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 628-740 (98.7 - 116.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO), destiny bond, snatch, and imposter pp stall.
 
Having a zyggy with a z crystal does, if people choose not to run it and lose to assist it's their problem, but that doesn't make assist broken.
Yeah, but, again, I can't actually think of a Ziggy I've seen running a Z-Crystal, in either my games or watching others. It's usually Leftovers, Safety Goggles, or Toxic Orb.

Mind, not trying to argue Assist is broken right now. But I can definitely see it potentially become problematic in the future if someone "cracks the code", so to speak. So, not really worth discussing right now, but definitely worth keeping an eye on.

Giratina takes more damage, but it still is 3HKOed (very low chance of 2HKO, but Leftovers negates this). Giratina with Z-Parting Shot is viable and wins against every AssistDon I can think of, since they can't actually run nothing good but Thousand Arrows.
Offense can deal with that too. Fridge Boomburst from Kyu-W from a Choice Scarf will outspeed every Pdon, and if you throw psychic terrain support from, I don't know, MMY, then not even priority will save you.
Also offensive Prankster is bad. The best a Prankster AssistDon can use against Yveltal, to say one dark Type, is Dragon Tail. And if it's choiced, then you killed momentum.
AssistDon can't break a well played Zygarde; it lacks the tools for that. Maybe Zygarde will be incapacitated. Sometimes. But that is. This is why it will never be broken.

Well yeah, but I'm not arguing Assistdon is the way to go for Assist teams, Ziggy kinda mucks that up. I actually have a better idea for how to go about it than the Pogre I mentioned on my lunch break or the classic Assistdon, but I've not done the homework yet to do anything but theorymon. Again, as above, not saying it's suspect worthy or anything. Just chiming in that there's more important things, although I feel it's worth keeping an eye on in case someone finds a way to break the meta with it.
 
Yeah, thats my bad for not checking; I shouldnt have assumed it works like all other 2 turn moves. Either way, though, zygarde shouldnt wall a well built assist team entirely, as they can run one of refridgerate (252+ SpA Choice Specs Refrigerate Groudon-Primal Nature Power vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 628-740 (98.7 - 116.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO), destiny bond, snatch, and imposter pp stall.
That works only if there aren't Terrains activated. Best Terrain scenario is Misty Surge for Moonblast, worst Terrain scenario is Electric Terrain for Thunderbolt. Other Terrains are neutral.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Groudon-Primal Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete: 282-334 (44.3 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Groudon-Primal Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete: 134-158 (21 - 24.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
Groudon-Primal Thunderbolt vs. Zygarde-Complete: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time

EDIT:

RegenVest users dislike being Choiced, but AssistDon hates receiving an AV. That also is something that needs to be accounted when using Trick on AssistDon.
 
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Another thing I really would like to see is the addition of a sleep clause just like it is in regular OU and Ubers.

In Regular OU/Ubers, sleep si generally rarely seen, as most sleep-inducing moves have very bad accuracy (Hypnosis for example has only 60% acc), so that using them is extremely risky - and the only 100% accuracy sleep move, Spore, is only learned by a handful of mons, which are all not really viable for the current OU metagame (except maybe Breloom). Also, due to sleep clause, only one opposing pokemon can be put to sleep at a time. That means that you can sacrifice a pokemon as sleep fodder to protect your other mons from being put to sleep.

In BH however, every pokemon has access to Spore, and to No Guard, so that other sleep-inducing moves like Lovely Kiss or Hypnosis can be used without having to worry about their accuracy. No Guard, however, is outclassed by other abilities and thus not often seen, while Spore is extremely splashable and extremely common. Due to the absence of sleep clause, nothing prevents one from simply putting all the opponent's pokemon to sleep - except Safety Goggles, which can be knocked off or tricked away.

Especially when the opponent predicts right and sets up on a switch, you don't have a chance of beating his pokemon unless your pokemon is bulky enough to defeat it even when factoring in sleep turns - this is something which applies only to a select few matchups like Regigigas vs Fur Coat Core Enforcer Zygod, because Zygod can stall the sleep turns out and then supress Regigigas' Poison Heal. Otherwise you're simply lost, because all your pokemon can be put to sleep and killed, even those who can survive one or two hits.

Regarding the ban guide:
Clauses should be reserved for complex cases where you'd either need a lot of individual bans, or it's more of a strategy that needs to be reduced. Saved for:
  • Dominant strategies with either no checks, or the player has to choose between preparing for this specific strategy or the general meta
  • Remove the emphasis of the game from skill to outside forces such as luck or amount of time the battlers have e.g. Endless Battle Clause
  • Blanket limitations instead of going for multiple bans e.g. Ability Clause
Exception: No complex bans which disallow specific Pokemon from having specific moves, items, abilities or any combination thereof
  1. Spore and so trying to put opposing mons asleep, is very dominant in the meta. The only checks are either abilities like Insomnia or Comatosa which grant the user no other benefit than the status immunity (Magic Bounce is no counterplay due to mold breaker and clones), safety goggles which can easily be knocked off, or prankster Taunts, which are extremely niche and prankster mons already have enough other moves to run, they kinda suffer already from a 4MSS (recovery, anti-setup, hazards/removal, dbond, switching move, anti-PH...), so that they can't really fit taunt into their four moveslots. If someone prepare his whole team to not getting defeated by a spore spammer, he has to either sacrifice important item or ability slots for that and an important moveslot on his prankster user if he has one, which causes severe disadvantages against other teams which don't use that much spore. Also, Safety Goggles can be knocked off, as I said, so they don't reliably protect from Spore trhoughout the match.
  2. Definitely applies here. There are often situations where the difference between a 1-turn-sleep and a 3-turn-sleep decides the game - and its only RNG-dependant. Such situations occur for example, when a sweeper puts its check to sleep and is able to 3HKO or 2HKO it after the setup, while the check can OHKO the sweeper, like it happened multiple times with my earth Plate Kyogre against Spore/Shell Smash Gengars.
  3. Also applies here clearly.
 
Another thing I really would like to see is the addition of a sleep clause just like it is in regular OU and Ubers.

In Regular OU/Ubers, sleep si generally rarely seen, as most sleep-inducing moves have very bad accuracy (Hypnosis for example has only 60% acc), so that using them is extremely risky - and the only 100% accuracy sleep move, Spore, is only learned by a handful of mons, which are all not really viable for the current OU metagame (except maybe Breloom). Also, due to sleep clause, only one opposing pokemon can be put to sleep at a time. That means that you can sacrifice a pokemon as sleep fodder to protect your other mons from being put to sleep.

In BH however, every pokemon has access to Spore, and to No Guard, so that other sleep-inducing moves like Lovely Kiss or Hypnosis can be used without having to worry about their accuracy. No Guard, however, is outclassed by other abilities and thus not often seen, while Spore is extremely splashable and extremely common. Due to the absence of sleep clause, nothing prevents one from simply putting all the opponent's pokemon to sleep - except Safety Goggles, which can be knocked off or tricked away.

Especially when the opponent predicts right and sets up on a switch, you don't have a chance of beating his pokemon unless your pokemon is bulky enough to defeat it even when factoring in sleep turns - this is something which applies only to a select few matchups like Regigigas vs Fur Coat Core Enforcer Zygod, because Zygod can stall the sleep turns out and then supress Regigigas' Poison Heal. Otherwise you're simply lost, because all your pokemon can be put to sleep and killed, even those who can survive one or two hits.

Regarding the ban guide:


  1. Spore and so trying to put opposing mons asleep, is very dominant in the meta. The only checks are either abilities like Insomnia or Comatosa which grant the user no other benefit than the status immunity (Magic Bounce is no counterplay due to mold breaker and clones), safety goggles which can easily be knocked off, or prankster Taunts, which are extremely niche and prankster mons already have enough other moves to run, they kinda suffer already from a 4MSS (recovery, anti-setup, hazards/removal, dbond, switching move, anti-PH...), so that they can't really fit taunt into their four moveslots. If someone prepare his whole team to not getting defeated by a spore spammer, he has to either sacrifice important item or ability slots for that and an important moveslot on his prankster user if he has one, which causes severe disadvantages against other teams which don't use that much spore. Also, Safety Goggles can be knocked off, as I said, so they don't reliably protect from Spore trhoughout the match.
  2. Definitely applies here. There are often situations where the difference between a 1-turn-sleep and a 3-turn-sleep decides the game - and its only RNG-dependant. Such situations occur for example, when a sweeper puts its check to sleep and is able to 3HKO or 2HKO it after the setup, while the check can OHKO the sweeper, like it happened multiple times with my earth Plate Kyogre against Spore/Shell Smash Gengars.
  3. Also applies here clearly.
Looking at this now, how are Sleep-inducing moves any more OP then they were in, say, Gen 5? Prankster Spore was even more unblockable then (only M-Bounce and Poison Heal/Guts/Flare Boost/Quick Feet/wutevr). No Safety goggles then, no grass immunity to Spore either. Also, the sleep mechanics in Gen 5 made Sleep even more obnoxious. Sleep-inducing moves have only been nerfed since then with the lower # of sleep turns and no reset. No Guard/Moldy Dark Void existed back then too. So why is it suddenly a problem now, after all these years?

Also, plz do sumthin bout Stall, it's stealin' may soul :/.
 
Do we have to wait for the mix and mega suspect on pheramosa to finish up before we can suspect anything? I am really getting tired of playing against shell smash because most of my teams have to run at least two different checks to it and they are still beaten, because there is no surefire way to beat multiple shell smash users.

Here are the various ways to fight shell smash and how they can be beaten:
1. prankster haze, but you probably lose the prankster hazer in a trade with the shell smash user. If they carry another one, which is often the case, you have lost now that your counter is dead. I've seen teams running 3 or even 4 shell smash users simply mowing other teams down.
2. Spectral thief doesn't work against normal types and since it doesn't have priority, your spectral thief user has to take a hit first, probably causing it to die.
3. Unaware users can easily be beaten by sunsteel strike/moongeist beam, and even if you use unaware Mega Gyarados which is fortunate enough to resist both of those, you can still be beaten if the shell smasher is a Dark-type Simple variant with a STAB 260 BP Power Trip. Yveltil is a really potent simple smasher thanks to its great bulk allowing it to take a single Extreme Speed from anything, and kill with a 260 BP Power Trip.
4. Topsy Turvy shuts down a Shell Smasher if you predict it right, since it now requires two turns to set up, but it doesn't work behind a substitute or against a Magic Bouncer, and if you run it with prankster, Dark-types are immune to it too, so usually it's ran without priority. So you still have to take a hit from one of three unknown coverage moves.
5. Priority is extremely unreliable against it because many smashers run dazzling. If they don't, they are probably running simple with a White Herb, which means that they don't even have to worry about defense drops, so they probably survive your priority and kill you anyway.
6. Imposters have to hope that they don't lose a speed tie. If they lose the speed tie, Shell Smash's defense drop ensures that the Imposter is at least severely damage, if not KOed. If the Shell Smash user also carries Spectral Thief, an Imposter must lose the speed tie in order to beat it, but it will still take huge damage if doing so. If the Shell Smasher is at full health and wears a focus sash, the Imposter almost always loses.
Shell Smash is so widespread that there are no true counters to it. Unskilled players can simply slap it onto a mon and totally turn their game around, even from a 5-2 clearly losing position. i've seen it happen. It constrains teambuilding because you have to run multiple checks to it and those checks can easily be beaten with a small amount of residual damage. For Example, Assault Vest Solgaleo takes 83-98% from a +2 Blue Flare from neutral natured Mewtwo-mega y. So it needs to be at full health to actually take that and Spectral Thief the boosts. Assault Vest Solgaleo is generally seen as a pretty solid counter to mewtwo Mega Y since it can take any move twice at +0, deal a lot of damage, and pivot back out, but all of that just goes away with Shell Smash. THe same thing can be said for things like Giratina countering Primal Groudon. It doesn't once Groudon has Shell Smashed, unless Giratina runs Spectral Thief which it probably does not, or is an Unaware variant. These can easily be lured. So there really are no counters to Shell Smash.

TLDR: Suspect test shell smash as soon as possible plz
 
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