Imprison may work against imposter, but still, doesn't prevent phazing (as he imprisons Haze and Spectral Thief afaik). And, when I use U-turn at the right moment, he doesn't get the free turn for Imprison. I just didn't expect the baton pass before all stats were maxed, and I wanted to save U-turn PP, so that I didn'T use U-turn in this turn.
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BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread
- Thread starter E4 Flint
- Start date
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InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
Just saying, all stats WERE maxed when he passed, and you can't claim you wanted to save U-Turn PP when you used it EVERY TURN from turn 19-36
I was running out of them, and not all stats were maxed afaik (Evasion and Accuracy were not?), and I was running out of U-turn PP and was worried that he may just continue accupressure spamming until I have no PP for U-turn left.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-567399786
just run a dazzling ghost as your pass receiver and you dont even need haze/bond proof
just run a dazzling ghost as your pass receiver and you dont even need haze/bond proof
Heart Swap does not bypass either of them, as it explicitly targets the opponent.
Destiny Bond bypasses them too, so proofing against them with prankster Imprison is definitively necessary.
Perish song though is blocked by dqm, but not p-terrain. Maybe should post in mechanics research instead
I'll test this stuff later tonight since it's important and simple enough
edit: my o3ds is just not working for some reason, so I'll have to test tomorrow :(
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The definition of a counter is something that can manually switch in and win every time, so I feel saying STag has counters is completely incorrect. After all what can switch into something that stops you switching?
Champion Leon
Banned deucer.
That's like saying Anchor Shot is uncounterable.
Skillswap, U-Turn, etc. stops Shadow Tag just like Substitute, Volt Change, etc. stops Anchor Shot from working.
Also I noticed yesterday that if you Core Enforcer a Pokémon that Baton Passes, the recipient of Baton Pass also loses their ability.
As for Stored Power don't forget Psychic Terrain, 620 * 1.5 = 930 base Power.
I like using Weakness Policy (+4 each offense on a bulky Simple user like Lugia which gains STAB off of Oblivion Wing), or if you are feeling less risky, just use Psychic Seed on a Simple user to get +2 Special Defense when Psychic Terrain is up and add to your Stored Power stat boosts. Beats Assault Vest, especially if you have Baton Pass and/or have support moves.
Gengar-Mega: Normalize- Shell Smash, Stored Power, Entrainment, Judgement @ Spooky Plate. Got a Mega-Tyranitar that can resist both? Entrain it...
Before someone argues: what about Priority, then one could say- Psychic Surge.
For anti-Imposter/anti-priority Reusable Yvetyl: Psychic Surge- Stored Power, Shell Smash, Earth Power, Judgement @ Pixie Plate
Unlike Unburden Shell Smash, White Herb and Power Trip sets, it can work more than once, and it prevents Triage and -ates from KOing you. In fact Earth Power hits Diance, Dialga, Primal Groudon, and still hits Solgaleo hard while Pixie Plate hits Mega-Tyranitar, Mega-Gyarados, Ash-Greninja, Mega-Rayquaza, Zygarde, etc. that would resist Stored Trip, not to mention the Imposter.
Yes, Imposter can still hit you with Normal Judgement, just like Imposter can still hit Power Trip Yvetyl with Power Trip (210 base power after Stab, then 105 after resistance, just above the Base Power of Judgement). Keep in mind the Imposter also absorbs the -SpD, so your hits will deal more damage.
Psychic Surge also gives it the equivalent of STAB.
Earth Power is relevant against Primal Groudon in case You don't have a moment to Shell Smash (I.e. It is a Contrarian that is about to use V-Create and you need to hit it before it sets up), or in case Pixie Plate gets Tricked or Knocked off and you need to hit Mega-T-Tar
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no. no it doesn't.
you can switch a mon into anchor shot. say you have a mega ray that can outspeed and ohko giratina. you can just switch it in and force giratina to go for skill swap on the switch. you can u-turn or hard into your own giratina. you can hard to a magic bounce regi. can you do this with shadow tag? no. you can't go to your pursuiter. you can't switch to a bouncer. because you can't switch out.
and can you please actually try these sets out instead of just theorymonning them? psychic surge yveltal doesn't even work because yveltal is a dark (edit: flying) type and thus isn't affected by terrain. meanwhile mega gengar needs two smashes for stored power to be stronger than boomburst and it's never getting those boosts against a competent team. honestly these obviously theorymonned sets are taking away so much from your credibility. sorry if that sounded harsh but please share sets that you've used, not ones that you thought of while writing that post.
let's move on from this really long and fruitless discussion about a strategy that was seen as an unreliable gimmick even by its creator. thanks.
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Technically, you can't check Shadow Tag either.
Same actually somewhat applies to Anchor Shot too though. Only, you can switch into the move with a counter since you have at least one turn to react. However, you can't switch out of the move to a counter barring most of the same few specific circumstances.
S.Tag doesn't give you any switch, free or otherwise, except under a few specific circumstances. So, if it weren't for Ghost-types, you could almost argue S.Tag had zero checks or counters.Smogon said:
Same actually somewhat applies to Anchor Shot too though. Only, you can switch into the move with a counter since you have at least one turn to react. However, you can't switch out of the move to a counter barring most of the same few specific circumstances.
Did you mean Flying type?
RNGIsFatal
Banned deucer.
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I was once a Shell Smash hater, but I felt like most people are leaning on discussing other topics more than that.
I will ask everyone to share opinion in the topic which is the most urgent at this point, Shadow Tag.
The reason why I concluded this topic must be discussed is:
1. During the time period when people were deviating from topic to the other, I have seen the most number of posts regarding Shadow Tag.
2. Our tier's leader admits this issue is prominent along with Primals, and he has considered crating a poll.
I currently say I am neutral about banning Shadow Tag. It is very underrated (not anymore judging from previous discussions)... but I have reasons for not being able to pick a side.
NO BAN?
According to our primary principle of banning abilities...
Although not the best ways, switching moves, if used properly, you can escape from Gengar and it kinda grants you a momentum (not to mention missing a single prediction is a punishment that you have to pay by letting one of your 'mons die).
This ability is high risk and high award. You have to acquire a regular Gengar which has pathetic overall stats in BH standards, needs to mega evolve safely (can be done under Illusion), and forfeit an item slot, meaning it cannot be used offensively.
But after the course of 4 months....
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BAN?
I used to say 'no need to ban Shadow Tag'.... until I saw this post that was not paid attention for long period time. (whomever that is interested in suspecting / discussing Shadow Tag, I highly recommend reading this.)
Simply carrying Gengar and showing it to opponent in team preview, and especially after it has successfully mega evolved and acquired Shadow Tag, it puts opponent under the massive pressure. You will hesitate every moment before you attempt to use Rapid Spin, or any moments you use a move that Gengar can safely switch in. You will end up using switching move or Knock Off when you can actually heal with your Unaware Audino or Zygarde, and if opponent is good enough to play around your predictions, your team will be slowly gone, one by one, either because you couldn't heal fearing Encore + Perish Song, or you were simply trapped when trying to heal your wall, using a stupid status move, setting hazards, or using Rapid Spin or Defog.
I can see there are checks against Mega Gengar + Shadow Tag, including having switching moves on everything which ain't reliable, but if we considered what have we banning in this generation, every.single.stuff. we have banned had checks: ExtremeEvoBoost was cucked by Imposter and Prankster Haze, Water Bubble was checked by RegenVest Gyarados or Water Absorb, and Innards Out was simply removed by Magic Guard. Yet we are banning stuff because the ways we have to check these banworthy (again, I have not decided whether to consider if Shadow Tag is banworthy) abilities require you to run something extremely absurd or specific. In this case, having switching moves on all fat mons is not that common, and that means you are missing out a moveslot that you can fill with hazard / hazard removal, coverage attacks, or status move.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-541092251
Watch. This. Replay.
Funbot28's team consisted of various types of walls along with Shadow Tag Mega Gengar, and I had Primal Groudon and Kyurem-W as offensive cores.
Primal Groudon was taken out when I thought I successfully passed choice item against Mega Audino, while it was Encored to spam Switcheroo.
Kyurem-W was also taken out in this scenario.
Funbot had Gengar, Zygarde-C, and regenvest gyarados left in party, while I only had Kyurem-W and other walls remaining in my team. I successfully deployed Kyurem-W on Zygarde-C that was confirmed not to be a weird shit like Soundproof or anything, and I had to consider VERY LONG TIME before I executed a move:
1. If I use Refrigerated Boomburst:
a. Zyg-C will die but that won't happen because Funbot knows how to think
b. Gengar won't switch in because it was clear Kyurem-W was holding specs judging from the raw power.
c. RegenVest Gyarados switches in and I lose momentum. The most optimal choice for Funbot.
2. If I tried to predict Gyarados and use Secret Sword (Gyarados was weakened enough to die from it)
a. Zyg-C will take next to no damage and I will be hit by Core Enforcer or will be pivoted
b. Gengar switches in, takes literally no damage and proceeds to use Perish Song.
c. Gyarados will be switched in and be chopped.
I ended up losing Kyurem-W after I predicted and killed Gyarados and Gengar switched into Kyurem-W that was locked into Secret Sword.
Like MAMP mentioned in his post, Shadow Tag makes lose-lose situation, and triples the amount of predictions because regular prediction punishes you by being hit by a move or giving setup opportunity if you miss it, but the consequence of missing prediction against Shadow Tag is simply death.
Summary
Shadow Tag is op. It shreds stall team apart, and can even trap and net surprise kills using Illusion or remove crucially important wall (such as Fur Coat Zygarde-C or any wall from opposing team that checks Imposter). But it is not that over-centralizing in my perspective, and it requires a player some skill and appropriate predictions to make it work. Offensive teams willed with boost spams and MMY will pressure Gengar a lot, leaving it next to nothing to do. However, I agree that this issue is worthy of being discussed, so lets fill this thread with appropriate discussions instead of dumping sets that belong in Team Dump thread and keep deriving the topic away when someone eventually said something with actual general consensus. If this looks like a shitpost, please relay by correcting me.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
the issue with smogons tiering is that its based solely on "pokemon scenario" and not "special occasions"
shadow tag is not a pokemon. you cannot "Check" shadow tag because smogons "check" definition does not apply to abilities alone. that is why they banned shadow tag itself. rather then all shadow taggers. after all, a shadow tagger without a shadow tag isnt shadow tag.shadow tags effect was what was broken. not the mons who wield it. what does this mean? well...for starters, shadow tag DOES have theoretical counters. and that is simply not becoming bait to it. "but that's bad, its forcing us to focus on stopping the gengar" well, yeah, but like...in the current meta, where setup is both the norm, and empowered, why are you running walls and tanks without some sort of getaway/phasing? if your running sitting duck walls and tanks, then i doubt gengar is the only thing you struggle with. and thats a fault of teambuilding, NOT gengar. if you built with these in mind, your team both becomes stronger, AND becomes stronger against megagar...its a win/win.
edit: oh i should explain why shadow tag itself is still banworthy(in my mind, as a experienced player, nothing is official so take it with a grain of salt. its all opinions), i had it pinpointed in my older version but forgot to mention, its because its unpredictable, and has a massive benefit due to such. gengarite however, gives gengar a massive sign saying "HEY LOOK WHAT IM DOING" its a very different scenario, especially since it takes gengar a turn to activate tag mode, meaning switching in, and trapping its target can be a massive pain.
which brings me to my next point. as my experience with BH, my countless years of playing around mega gengar...has ANYONE actually been beaten unfairly by one? has anyone had a serious team with the criteria i made above actually lost to a mega gengar?! because honestly, ive played over 600 games now with megar around...and not ONCE has one ever stumped me, or put me in a infavorable matchup...and i NEVER even consider it because of how rare it is. and i play all playstyles equally. so if im missing something id LOVE to be informed, because im confused on why this is even a thing other then people who want consistancy. maybe its just my playstyle...i have no idea...but im clearly missing something others are seeing...since mega gengar has been nothing but a joke to me..if not, a minor nuance.
lastly, BH has always followed a "least ban possible" mentality, so i highly doubt "banning for the sake of consistancy" will mean anything to flint or TI, etc. shadow tag may be broken...but gengarite is not...at least not what ive seen from my years of playing.
i would like to disagree with this. preparing for setup actually makes you weaker to gengar. for example, fat teams are forced to run abilities such as prankster and unaware in this meta, taking away team slots to actually have mons that don't get trapped by gengar. secondly, ph mons such as regigigas mandate the use of safety goggles on fat mons (as opposed to shed shell) because otherwise they'll get lucked by spore. finally, ghosts are kind of bad because of power trip's existence.
how have you seen 600 games with it if it's so rare ?_? inconsistencies aside, i'd say i was beaten unfairly by a mega gengar, just check the suspects and bans thread (where i'd like to move the discussion, if you don't mind). even though my audino had u-turn that didn't matter because gengar could just switch in and take away all the other options. because of this gengar made hazards basically impossible to remove for me all because i didn't run magic bounce defog (which doesn't get you very far against setup, btw).
ok. show me a replay where you faced a mega gengar with a fat team and won easily, then maybe i'll be convinced.
When I played with STag Gengar the fact that I had to deal with a regular Gengar until mega-evolution wasn't problematic at all, thanks to illusion. Leading with the illusioned Gengar even allowed me sometimes to take out the opposing lead immediately, for example when it used Stealth Rock, because the opponent thought my Gengar was a harmless Zygod.
Duckymomo Senior
Banned deucer.
I would argue that gengarite isn't really op because it only works about half the time and when it doesn't work u just wasted a mon. I think primal kyogre is a much bigger problem as it is simply insane. It can check a number of attackers including but not limited too Mega Mewtwo Y, Imposter Chansey, some MRays, Mega Gengar, Mega Mewtwo X, Mega Diancie, Regigigas, Dialga, Kyurem-B, Primal Groudon, Offensive Xerneas, Deoxys-A, Slaking, Kyurem-W, Ash Greninja, Mega Heracross, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Heracross, Pheromosa, Palkia, Mega Blaziken, and Offensive Ho-Oh just to name a few. It can also act on the offensive side and kill some common walls such as Zygarde-C, Giratina (most of the time), Solgaleo if u get a burn, Yveltal, Mega Tyranitar, Celesteela if it's not regen vest, Registeel depending on if u can set up, Magearna, and Defensive Ho-Oh. Basically if you run this with prankster+haze/dbond to prevent set up your only chance to kill it is with Zekrom, Kartana, or Mega Sceptile. I think primal groudon is pretty good too but it's not really banworthy imo because u can actually kill it relatively easily.
Kyogre has severe 4mss, is weak unboosted, and as such in reality never hits any more than half of the pokemon you listed with one single set. It also cannot beat any mewtwo with more certainty than mewtwo beating itself.
Kyogre can both be walled (just not by those cookiecutter dragons because lol non stab ice beam) and comparatively easily revenge killed.
I assume all these are reasons why you chose on your team regigigas over kyogre which can only be walled by at most as many pokemon as kyogre, and is virtually impossible to revenge kill at all.
Kyogre can both be walled (just not by those cookiecutter dragons because lol non stab ice beam) and comparatively easily revenge killed.
I assume all these are reasons why you chose on your team regigigas over kyogre which can only be walled by at most as many pokemon as kyogre, and is virtually impossible to revenge kill at all.
I also disagree with banning POgre.
It doesn't check all of your listed pokemon at the same time, it needs different sets for that, and what it checks also depend's on the opponent's pokemon's moveset. For example, an APS Gengar with Spore can be checked by a PH Kyogre, but an Entrainment Gengar can't be, it can only be checked by Revelation Dance/Judgment variants, and because Judgment variants have to carry a plate as item, they can't carry safety goggles or a toxic orb (for PH). Also, the standard PH Gigas can only be checked by Safety Goggles Fur Coat Pogre, as without Safety Goggles, Regigigas can spore it to collect more Shift Gear boosts, and without Fur Coat, Regigigas can just power through it even without a single boost. A Belly Drum Regigigas however, is only checked by Unaware variants, which, on the other side, fail to check PH Regigigas.
And it is exactly the same with other pokemon in BH, they can check a lot of threats, but depending on their and the opponent's actual moveset.
It doesn't check all of your listed pokemon at the same time, it needs different sets for that, and what it checks also depend's on the opponent's pokemon's moveset. For example, an APS Gengar with Spore can be checked by a PH Kyogre, but an Entrainment Gengar can't be, it can only be checked by Revelation Dance/Judgment variants, and because Judgment variants have to carry a plate as item, they can't carry safety goggles or a toxic orb (for PH). Also, the standard PH Gigas can only be checked by Safety Goggles Fur Coat Pogre, as without Safety Goggles, Regigigas can spore it to collect more Shift Gear boosts, and without Fur Coat, Regigigas can just power through it even without a single boost. A Belly Drum Regigigas however, is only checked by Unaware variants, which, on the other side, fail to check PH Regigigas.
And it is exactly the same with other pokemon in BH, they can check a lot of threats, but depending on their and the opponent's actual moveset.
Duckymomo Senior
Banned deucer.
Maybe I'm biased in my hatred of pogre (although many run core enforcer to beat pheal regigigas so that argument is invalid), but it's definitely the most powerful mon in BH except for maybe mmy and chansey and deserves to be considered for ban more than gengarite.
Duckymomo Senior
Banned deucer.
Also i changed my opinion on gengarite it actually can be op if u use it right. I was just testing some troll stuff with eject button but it actually works. Also, refridgerate pdon is fun.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-570391288(Turn 4-7)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-570624048(Turn 7-10)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-570391288(Turn 4-7)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-570624048(Turn 7-10)
Duckymomo Senior
Banned deucer.
pdon is stopped by giratina pretty solidly tho.
Zygod also stops it reliably, especially fur coat variants, as they can tank even ice hammer with ease.
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