BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

Let's just ban the damn thing already we all know it's broken, do we honestly have to write essays on why?
Have you read the thread? People haven't unanimously decided that PDon is broken. Here are a few good posts that showcase just how diverse various opinions are on this thread:
I do like this post, but after reading it over a couple times, I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're trying to say in it. From what I can gather, you want people to see that Pdon is broken/should be banned, but are trying to do it in a way where people are able to form their own opinion based on the information you provided. If I'm wrong, please let me know and ignore the rest of this, but if I'm not, I like the idea of it. However, I don't think the post quite accomplishes that. If anything, it gives more of a reason to believe Pdon isn't broken, and again if I'm wrong in assuming you want people to see it's broken then ignore this.

The main issue I see with arguments to ban/suspect Pdon is that people are talking like it always runs all of these sets, when one Pdon can only run one set. And whenever I do try having discussions about this topic whether it be in the OM room on Showdown or the BH Discord, or wherever I end up talking about it, it turns into "what if" scenarios, which go nowhere. Someone starts off by talking about the Tinted Lens set, but when I provide reliable ways to play around it, they say "what if it's Galvanize". See the issue? (And this isn't directed to fsk, this is directed to anyone who reads this). You can't bring up one set, but say it can run something else when given a reliable check/counter.

So how would you know what your opponent is running on their Pdon? Well, unless you can read a team like no one I have ever met, you aren't gonna know what they are running. That means you have to scout until safety. Things like Imposter and blanket checks are perfect for that purpose. The argument that can rise from that statement though, is that it can kill the Pokemon you are scouting with. Well, that means that either you weren't using a blanket check, or they had a good lure, and any single Pokemon in BH can run a lure like that. Of course some have better stats to accomplish it, but the point still stands. Any Pokemon with decent stats will have multiple viable sets, the reason the idea that something is broken because of this fact is because of how well the mon takes advantage of these blanket checks. In the case of Pdon, I do not personally believe these different sets cover enough blanket checks to be considered broken. And I also do not believe that one Pdon set is so good that it nullifies any check it may have.

Hopefully I got across what I was trying to say in a decent way, as I just about had a stroke trying to write it for some reason. To sum it up, fsk unless you were trying not to make a point on purpose, try to drive reasons/evidence into one direction, but you may have been trying to remain semi-neutral based on your first paragraph so I really don't know lol. And to everyone else, Pdon can't run all its sets at once, so focus on one at a time, and you have to use various scouting methods, as you do with any Pokemon, to find out what set you are up against. I don't think it should be banned cause I don't think it abuses these scouting methods. Thanks for reading.
I think you're kinda missing the point here DG9. I'll explain:

Yes, it's true that all of PDon's sets have multiple, viable counters. Yes, it's true that most offensive mons in BH can tailor their set to beat their usual counters and PDon is not alone in this. Yes, it's true that PDon can't beat all of its counters at once. That doesn't matter.

You're looking at PDon only in terms of its defensive counterplay in a vacuum, without considering it in other contexts or its effect on teambuilding and on the metagame more broadly. PDon's versatility means that it practically necessitates 2 dedicated defensive answers on any team that isn't HO. There is only a very short list of things that can actually switch into even PDon's most common set (CB wallbreaker), and they're mostly very similar. This leads to far less variety in defensive cores and more homogeneity between teams, and makes it very difficult for teams to adequately prepare for the rest of the metagame when so much space has to be dedicated to beating PDon.

PDon's fantastic bulk and defensive typing make it very difficult to wear down — it's immune to Volt Switch and resistant to U-turn, it can't be burned nor paralysed by anything except Glare. PDon is not only the strongest wallbreaker in the metagame, but it's also fat enough to pretty comfortably take hits from many of the scariest offensive mons in the tier. This also lets PDon set up really easily and is a huge part of the reason that PDon's boosting sets are so dangerous. Unlike similar slow wallbreakers, PDon's bulk and resilience against common pivoting moves means that it can't just be beaten by keeping up momentum against it and forcing it out with offensive pressure.

You aren't wrong when you say that other offensive mons can change their set to beat common counters, but different mons can do it to different degrees of effectiveness and none (except arguably MRay) can do it as well as PDon. There's a couple of important factors to consider when evaluating how good a BH set is at beating its counters; how diverse its counters are and how much functionality it sacrifices when it changes its set. I'll give you an example of a mon that is much less flexible to show you what I mean — let's take PH Primal Kyogre.

Kyogre-Primal @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Quiver Dance
- Spore

This set is countered by pretty much any bulky mon with Core Enforcer, most bulky waters, most Unawares, Desolate Land PDon, and a few other miscellaneous mons. It also has a lot of trouble sweeping against a team with a bulky Spectral Thief mon or a Prankster. Now, POgre has options to beat these, but if it changes its set to do so it comes at a cost. If POgre runs coverage to hit other Water-types, then it may struggle against Imposter. Moonblast is an option over Ice Beam to hit MGyara and some other bulky waters, but it doesn't OHKO MRay unboosted or Zyg at +1 like Ice Beam does, and opens up the possibility of losing to a crit from Imposter. POgre can't beat Core Enforcer without tomfoolery like Imprison + Core or Conversion + Moonblast, which are niche options that use up multiple moveslots. POgre can replace Spore with Leech Seed or Taunt to beat some mons, but losing Spore means you lose to some other mons. It's a balancing act. If it wants to beat its checks and counters, it always has to sacrifice something important. Most offensive threats in BH are similar to this.

Now let's compare this to CB PDon.

Groudon-Primal @ Choice Band
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- V-create

With just two moves and an item, this set has no switchins besides Giratina (tho this takes ~45), Big Zygarde, Shed, a few fat water types, and some Fur Coat mons. The rest of the metagame is 2HKO'd, and don't forget that this is on top of having very solid bulk and a decent speed tier. Now we can add an ability — Adaptability, Tinted Lens, Mold Breaker, Desolate Land, whatever — and that list of counters shrinks further. We can add moves like U-turn, Precipice Blades, Bolt Strike, Ice Hammer, Trick, and PDon gains even more utility. PDon hasn't sacrificed anything to do this — it already beats most of the tier with just two moves and a Choice Band due to its phenomenal typing, stats, and high BP STAB options. Anything it can get on top of that is just icing. This is why PDon is so much more flexible than other offensive mons, and why the argument that 'other mons can also runs coverage to beat their counters' doesn't really hold much weight. PDon accomplishes so much with so little that it doesn't have to sacrifice anything substantial to run extra coverage/boosting abilities on top of this.

PDon's counters are also mostly pretty similar — bulky fire resists with Fur Coat. This makes it very easy for PDon to lure its common switchins, because there's so little variety among them.

This isn't even to mention PDon's special and mixed sets, which sacrifice some initial power to much more easily lure its usual counters (especially the ones with Fur Coat). This adds an entire extra layer to PDon's flexibility that so few mons can match.

You've said that PDon's set can easily be scouted, but I would contest that. Imposter is not a good PDon switch-in as so many of the best PDon sets 2HKO it or just set up on it. Even just an unboosted CB Thousand Arrows does around 35%. The ability to hit itself super-effectively with it's own STAB is one of PDon's greatest strengths. And it's easy enough to say that you can just scout its set by switching around, but that's a weak argument because 1) switching around in front of PDon is so risky considering how hard it can hit from both sides and how dangerous it is if it sets up and 2) that doesn't change the fact that you need to run multiple counters to reliably deal with it.

tl;dr pdon is dumb af, ban pls

big post about psurge and shell smash coming soon maybe
There are more posts on why PDon is broken/not broken on the previous page. The solution isn't so clear cut as to "just ban the damn thing" since there's obviously multiple point of views as to if it's broken. In addition, these "essays" help users that are on the fence, such as myself, decide on if we want to see PDon go. There's nothing wrong with discussion on a suspect - If you want to see it go, ladder for reqs and vote ban once the suspect starts up. One-liners like yours contribute nothing to the discussion. I don't mean to sound harsh, so sorry if I came across like that but discussion during a suspect period is a good tool for people to form and change their opinion based on valid arguments being presented.

while im here i agree w/ mamp ban pdon like seriously it can almost run any set to a viable degree and constrains teambuilding a whole lot
but deep down i kinda love abusing it plus i've learned to just play w/ it in the tier so i wouldn't mind if it stayed
 
Good back and forth discussion by RNG, Dg9, Mamp and whoever else participated. I think there is enough dialogue now to have a serious look at Primal Groudon. So my next action will be to suspect Primal Groudon. I will try to release the information by Sunday EST (that's usually when i like to start suspects)

E: The suspect will have to take place next week due to clash with MnM suspect
May I ask why you're suspecting it? i see with all it can run well, but it's "balanced" hackmons. it's not really unbalanced, it's versatile.
 
May I ask why you're suspecting it? i see with all it can run well, but it's "balanced" hackmons. it's not really unbalanced, it's versatile.
i mean, the fact that its so versatile, and that there isnt one thing that reliably stops everything it does, means that it can't always be countered, very similar to how huge power mons with coverage can't be shut down consistently.
 
Is groudon's ban just because it is "OP", that people are frustrated that their team cant handle it?

How about imposter chansey? People sometimes cant handle that either and chansey is not ban worth.

"There are counters to imposter chansey!" Well, there also are counters to groudon primal.

Stakeout still is easily switched into by dragon types, and with a single recovery one can heal off the damage.
252 Atk Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina-Origin: 148-175 (29.3 - 34.7%) -- 9.2% chance to 3HKO (Not stakeout. Stakeout is guaranteed 2hko but with -1 speed Groudon is outsped by max speed invested Giri, no effecting nature. Giratina can threaten with core enforcer taking advantage of a switch or groudons lackluster SpD and -1 SpD from V-Create, or heal up the damage.)

All in all, I would vote for No ban. This sample set is one of the sets mentioned of this suspect, and a calculation. If people think groudon is OP, i believe groudon is now the new Balanced hackmons defining pokemon and if people do not like it, look at how much impostor chansey has affected this meta. Look how all the good teams need to be imposter proof. Is it so different?
 
Is groudon's ban just because it is "OP", that people are frustrated that their team cant handle it?

How about imposter chansey? People sometimes cant handle that either and chansey is not ban worth.

"There are counters to imposter chansey!" Well, there also are counters to groudon primal.

Stakeout still is easily switched into by dragon types, and with a single recovery one can heal off the damage.
252 Atk Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina-Origin: 148-175 (29.3 - 34.7%) -- 9.2% chance to 3HKO (Not stakeout. Stakeout is guaranteed 2hko but with -1 speed Groudon is outsped by max speed invested Giri, no effecting nature. Giratina can threaten with core enforcer taking advantage of a switch or groudons lackluster SpD and -1 SpD from V-Create, or heal up the damage.)

All in all, I would vote for No ban. This sample set is one of the sets mentioned of this suspect, and a calculation. If people think groudon is OP, i believe groudon is now the new Balanced hackmons defining pokemon and if people do not like it, look at how much impostor chansey has affected this meta. Look how all the good teams need to be imposter proof. Is it so different?
Stakeout is not easily switched in by dragon types:
+2 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 440-518 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

That's with PDon being a neutral nature and no boosting item, so i don't think you can really call that safe.
However if you insist on running pdon that only carries V-create:
+2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 392-462 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Yeah that's hardly safe either if you ask me, that's why fur coat was used a lot.

But anyway stakeout is banned so that's irrelevant for the current suspect.

You say Primal Groudon has counters, if you're so confident of this try to name one and I'm sure we can find at least 5 pdon sets that it can't switch into, and I don't mean random niche ones: notable ones listed in this thread already.

Imposter Chansey isn't at all the current issue but the difference with that is you choose what moves and ability it gets, not the opponent, so it's a completely different kettle of fish.

You can probably guess my opinion is definitely leaning towards Ban because of the mixture of sheer power Pdon has with stab V-create and it's versatility that lets it capitalise on the switches it forces. For me it is only the combination of these two factors that make it worth considering for ban: Pdon can OHKO almost any neutral mon if it's carrying choice band and it has the bulk and defensive typing that enables it to set up incredibly easily against most walls and utility mons even if they decide not to switch out. This is coupled with the amazing STABs and offensive stats that enable it to be so potent after setup in so many different ways.
 
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Is groudon's ban just because it is "OP", that people are frustrated that their team cant handle it?

How about imposter chansey? People sometimes cant handle that either and chansey is not ban worth.

"There are counters to imposter chansey!" Well, there also are counters to groudon primal.

Stakeout still is easily switched into by dragon types, and with a single recovery one can heal off the damage.
252 Atk Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina-Origin: 148-175 (29.3 - 34.7%) -- 9.2% chance to 3HKO (Not stakeout. Stakeout is guaranteed 2hko but with -1 speed Groudon is outsped by max speed invested Giri, no effecting nature. Giratina can threaten with core enforcer taking advantage of a switch or groudons lackluster SpD and -1 SpD from V-Create, or heal up the damage.)

All in all, I would vote for No ban. This sample set is one of the sets mentioned of this suspect, and a calculation. If people think groudon is OP, i believe groudon is now the new Balanced hackmons defining pokemon and if people do not like it, look at how much impostor chansey has affected this meta. Look how all the good teams need to be imposter proof. Is it so different?
I guess you don't understand how stakeout was used on Primal Groudon. Groudon ran stakeout to trash switch in, and it could do that on dragons too by using Fleur Cannon.
+2 is used to simulate stakeout.
+2 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 440-518 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Add SR
+2 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 440-518 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Or Zygarde.
+2 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 514-606 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

You might argue that they can live the hit but they wont live the next one, even if it does 1/4 of the previous damage.
Imposter is a different matter. You can run an imposterproof team, and then you are 100% sure that the enemy imposter will never be a threat, while still dealing with all the meta.
But you can't run a Primal Groudon proof team and expect it to function well against the remaining meta. Just like you can't do it with MMY or whatever remaining powerhouse.
Groudon isn't suspected because he's too powerful, it is suspected because it can run an enormous amount of sets and none of them shares a common check or counter. Even Stakeout had checks, but those checks weren't pokemon; they were the player reading the opponent's moves to send something, even not dedicated, to tank the predicted move. Yes, Fleur Cannon may have killed Giratina, but Solgaleo laughs at it.
 
One mon that may survive that set is flash fire aegislash, scizor-mega, celestela, skarmory, registeel, kartana and ferrothorn.
uh
groudon runs ground coverage
again, +2 to simulate stakeout
+2 252 Atk Groudon-Primal Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Aegislash-Shield: 444-524 (137 - 161.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Scizor-Mega: 258-304 (75 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO *edit: forgot evs here
+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Celesteela: 319-376 (80.1 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Skarmory: 258-304 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 488-576 (134 - 158.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ferrothorn: 271-319 (76.9 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and again, stakeout is banned. but still, every other set that can "wall" pdon will end up getting thrashed by some random lure set like ss mguard, or contrary fleur, or pixiedon
 
What ever happened to imposter sets? Easiest scout
+2 252 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Groudon-Primal: 378-446 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Groudon-Primal Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Groudon-Primal: 284-336 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Taking 40%+ damage isn't scouting, it's suicide. That is STAB, you pretty much guaranteed to see one of these moves.
And again this is stakeout and it's pointless to speak about that, since it is banned.
Refer to this post to see common pdon sets and common answers to them. You'll see that every set has multiple answer, but pick 3 at random and look if they share a check.
 
and then pdon sets up shell smash as you try to scout

and even if you scout, if pdon has the coverage to beat you, it is nigh impossible to win because of its stellar bulk
 
Fine, moldbreaker aqua jet or water shuriken.
The opposing Groudon used Extreme Speed. It's super effective! Kyogre lost 100% of its health!
Kyogre fainted!

Apart from that:
252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 300-360 (74.2 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Kyogre-Primal Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal: 156-184 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So Mold Breaker Aqua Jet or Shuriken is no answer to any PDon.
 
Aqua jet never kills due to massive physical bulk, water shuriken is RNG reliant and anyway only Pogre can kill it and it needs 4 hits, that's 1/3 of the times. And Mold breaker won't help you break Desoland. You can't revenge kill groudon with water priority most of the times.

and then pdon sets up shell smash as you try to scout

and even if you scout, if pdon has the coverage to beat you, it is nigh impossible to win because of its stellar bulk
Yes and no. It does have a nice defensive typing and a huge physical bulk, but it is weak to special hits and to Water. A lot weak to Water, special hits. Surf from 432 SpA or Steam Eruption from 354 SpA are both OHKO (not STAB), and are not that hard to pull off.
In particular (first surf, then steam), base 167/128 for neutral spa nature not STAB, base 148/112 for positive spa nature not STAB, base 95/69 for neutral spa nature STAB, base 82/58 for positive spa nature STAB are enough to OHKO pdon, giving that it isn't immune.
Yeah that's right, Gyrados has enough spa to kill Pdon with Steam Eruption, but not enough Atk to kill it with Waterfall.
MMY, Mray and Deo-A can use Scald too, and in particular Psysurge Deoa outspeeds scarf adamant pdon and OHKOes it with Scald before potential priority from -ate, unless the ability saves its life.
 

Pikachuun

邪法使い_CC
is a Pre-Contributor
Very well, go with the easiest way to kill groudons. Moldbreaker aqua jet or water shuriken.


Yeah this is one of PDon's most common sets and weather doesn't care about Mold Breaker, try again
The sheer unpredictability of PDon is what is getting it banned, and even then its most common sets (Contrary, Desolate Land, Unburden, Tinted Lens going by August's usage stats) are still incredibly strong. It can break past its counters with minimal issues just by tweaking the set a bit, and it still does an impressive job at dealing with a ton of things if you run a set that could be considered more niche (Galvanize/Fridge for instance). I mean, I've even run Specs Tinted Eruption on this bad boy and it does quite good at catching FC users off-guard.
But to answer your ultimate question, yes, people are frustrated because their teams can't handle it. In fact, no teams can without them being fundamentally flawed in some other way. That's why people are complaining it's OP, it simply is considering you have to run multiple walls to reliably beat it, and even then with the right coverage it can cheese past those anyway.
 
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drampa's grandpa

formerly The Ruins of Alpha
This suspect is about neither Imposter nor Stakeout so why don't we stop talking about them? Stakeout is banned and Imposter is not going to be (if you want reasons why try asking in the om room. Ofc if it's relevant to the current suspect feel free.)

I'm not a big BH player currently so I'm curious as to how people practically deal with PDon on their teams as of now. Do you simply prepare for the most common sets? Chuun talked a little about this but I would like a better picture as someone who hasn't played much recently.
 
This suspect is about neither Imposter nor Stakeout so why don't we stop talking about them? Stakeout is banned and Imposter is not going to be (if you want reasons why try asking in the om room. Ofc if it's relevant to the current suspect feel free.)

I'm not a big BH player currently so I'm curious as to how people practically deal with PDon on their teams as of now. Do you simply prepare for the most common sets? Chuun talked a little about this but I would like a better picture as someone who hasn't played much recently.
Most (defensive) teams tend to have a bulky fur coat mon (often giratina) which can switch into most of the "flagship" sets, aka physical wall breakers with V-create and abilities like tinted lens. They also have a specially bulky AV user that isn't weak to its STABs or a specially bulky Unaware who can deal with (most) setup sets, an imposter to hopefully rk and more importantly scout and a prankster with haze and destiny bond to remove boosts and as a last resort. If you're very careful scouting normally these 4 mons are enough to stop it as long you don't get caught unprepared by strange coverage or just really uncommon sets (tinted lens specs eruption for example).
There may be other styles of defensive core that deal with it but that's what I often see as the "standard", feel free to correct me if this is disagreed with.

Offensive teams have a slightly easier time as long as it doesn't get a chance to set up and just run sashes all over the place to revenge kill or make sure the team is composed of soft offensive checks (for example specs surge mmy).
 


Yeah this is one of PDon's most common sets and weather doesn't care about Mold Breaker, try again
The sheer unpredictability of PDon is what is getting it banned, and even then its most common sets (Contrary, Desolate Land, Unburden, Tinted Lens going by August's usage stats) are still incredibly strong. It can break past its counters with minimal issues just by tweaking the set a bit, and it still does an impressive job at dealing with a ton of things if you run a set that could be considered more niche (Galvanize/Fridge for instance). I mean, I've even run Specs Tinted Eruption on this bad boy and it does quite good at catching FC users off-guard.
But to answer your ultimate question, yes, people are frustrated because their teams can't handle it. In fact, no teams can without them being fundamentally flawed in some other way. That's why people are complaining it's OP, it simply is considering you have to run multiple walls to reliably beat it, and even then with the right coverage it can cheese past those anyway.
You would not be switching in your mold breaker into desolate land in the first place. Why would you do that? Its so obvious when the weather pops up.
 
You would not be switching in your mold breaker into desolate land in the first place. Why would you do that? Its so obvious when the weather pops up.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Mewtwo-Mega-X Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal: 284-336 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Gyarados-Mega Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal: 368-440 (91 - 108.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon-Primal: 384-456 (95 - 112.8%) -- approx. 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon-Primal: 540-648 (133.6 - 160.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I don't know wtf you're running Aqua Jet or Water Shuriken on but if you're using those as your Pdon check you're gonna have a really bad time as Kyogre/AshGren are p much the only mons that are guaranteed to OHKO with Water Shuriken so if you've been trying to use Water-type priority as your Pdon check on anything that aren't those two you're definitely doing it wrong ,_, Even then Water Shuriken/Aqua Jet are pretty weak in the first place and I wouldn't seriously run them on any Pokemon because you miss out on either utility or much better coverage for a move that doesn't even do what it's meant to

Some common Pdon checks are like Scarf Psysurge MMY, Specs Boomburst MRay/KyuW or Steam Eruption Mega Diancie, but even the last two are shut down by a simple item change or ability change (Scarf, Soundproof and/or Water Absorb respectively) so even then Pdon is so versatile that it can beat the lures that are designed to beat it in the first place while not losing too much viability or not losing any at all lul Water Absorb Pdon in particular is a pretty good surprise and Scarf is definitely a good item on Pdon
 
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Personally i favor a meta with P-Don.
BH Gen 7 is out for a year and P-Don has proven to be in line with the other S ranks.

I think BH is currently overbalanced;
During OMPL i saw Gengarnite being allowed in AG, BH should have least bans of all.

I played this AAA Sketchmons, it looked fun on paper, but in practise i had to build
arround both AAA and Sketchmons restrictions.


Many write P-Don is versatile, but they see it from the wrong perspective;
Fsk is perfect example with his 12 sets he considers switch ins.
BH switch ins are situational, always.

During a match you have 5 opportunities to reset a bad matchup via getting KOed and reverse momentum.
The Art of P-Don is chosing the most effective set for your team.

Because of this P-Don can surprise at highest level.


A while ago i made a list of P-Don abilities during OMPL.
17/19 abilities can be proven via replays;

Pixi
Galva
Stakeout
unknown
Stakeout
Stakeout
Illusion
Tinted
Stakeout
Speed Boost
Refridge
Soundproof
Illusion
Sheer Force
Water Absorb
Speed Boost
Tinted
unknown


Btw i watched a documentary, "Broken Arrow" is a codeword for a nuclear (missile) accident.
So what does Thousand Arrows mean ?
 
Currently I'm pro PDon ban, but I also understand the anti-ban arguments.

Also, Shell Smash is a big part of its versatility, as it can smash in your face when you try to scout its set and proceed with a sweep - often you have to sacrifice at least one mon to get a pokemon in which can stop PDon, sometimes you have to use Destiny Bond to stop it, and often you can't stop it once it gets going. However, when Shell Smash gets banned, playing against PDon will become easier, because it has to use "slow" setup options, namely quiver dance, which means that it can be stopped easier and doesn't sweep teams when you mispredict its set.

Same applies of course to Belly Drum, however it can be stopped easier than special sets thanks to Fur Coat, which has no special counterpart.

So it might make sense to discuss Groudon again after the Shell Smash (and maybe Belly Drum) suspect, if the current suspect ends with a "no ban".
 
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