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BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by E4 Flint, Dec 3, 2016.

  1. Kadabrium

    Kadabrium

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    If you do not know what set it is running (which in groudons case meaning revealing all 4 moves or a choice item), you cannot stay in/switch in to anything that cannot live vcreate. even if it has shown boomburst and judgment and some other special move. without vcreate you dont need resist on top of fur coat to take it, just one of the two. It is in this list that the new counters and ones not weak to those different kinds of coverages find themselves. things like regigigas and audino dont fear groudon without vcreate at all. so I m not sure what to prepare for 1 line responses
    in addition, groudon even without vcreate is still more overpowered than mewtwo, rayquaza and kyogre, because it is the only one with fully functional complementary dual stabs plus a defensive typing.
    mewty and kyogre have only 1 stab each, and both of rayquazas are both walled by steel and diancie among others. mewtx dont even have useable stabs without boosting.
    mewtwo and rayquaza cannot be self improof at all since their typings dont offer useful resists, while groudon has a ton of those, including 2 crucial ones to ates.
    groudons stabs dont even share 1 resistance in common, and with arrows none at all. this means even just a basic stab+shell smash set works better than any other of these pokemon.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  2. Jiibriil

    Jiibriil

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    Let's just ban the damn thing already we all know it's broken, do we honestly have to write essays on why?
  3. GL Volkner

    GL Volkner

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    Have you read the thread? People haven't unanimously decided that PDon is broken. Here are a few good posts that showcase just how diverse various opinions are on this thread:
    There are more posts on why PDon is broken/not broken on the previous page. The solution isn't so clear cut as to "just ban the damn thing" since there's obviously multiple point of views as to if it's broken. In addition, these "essays" help users that are on the fence, such as myself, decide on if we want to see PDon go. There's nothing wrong with discussion on a suspect - If you want to see it go, ladder for reqs and vote ban once the suspect starts up. One-liners like yours contribute nothing to the discussion. I don't mean to sound harsh, so sorry if I came across like that but discussion during a suspect period is a good tool for people to form and change their opinion based on valid arguments being presented.

    while im here i agree w/ mamp ban pdon like seriously it can almost run any set to a viable degree and constrains teambuilding a whole lot
    but deep down i kinda love abusing it plus i've learned to just play w/ it in the tier so i wouldn't mind if it stayed
  4. GoodEveningGiratina

    GoodEveningGiratina

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    May I ask why you're suspecting it? i see with all it can run well, but it's "balanced" hackmons. it's not really unbalanced, it's versatile.
  5. jrm115

    jrm115

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    i mean, the fact that its so versatile, and that there isnt one thing that reliably stops everything it does, means that it can't always be countered, very similar to how huge power mons with coverage can't be shut down consistently.
    SomeIrish likes this.
  6. IronedSandwich

    IronedSandwich

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    are we just suspecting Primal Groudon's ability to be selected by the teambuilder, or Groudon's ability to hold a red orb too?
  7. MAMP

    MAMP

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    assuming its the same as last gen, red orb groudon will still be legal
  8. Affinitytank

    Affinitytank

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    Is groudon's ban just because it is "OP", that people are frustrated that their team cant handle it?

    How about imposter chansey? People sometimes cant handle that either and chansey is not ban worth.

    "There are counters to imposter chansey!" Well, there also are counters to groudon primal.

    Stakeout still is easily switched into by dragon types, and with a single recovery one can heal off the damage.
    252 Atk Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina-Origin: 148-175 (29.3 - 34.7%) -- 9.2% chance to 3HKO (Not stakeout. Stakeout is guaranteed 2hko but with -1 speed Groudon is outsped by max speed invested Giri, no effecting nature. Giratina can threaten with core enforcer taking advantage of a switch or groudons lackluster SpD and -1 SpD from V-Create, or heal up the damage.)

    All in all, I would vote for No ban. This sample set is one of the sets mentioned of this suspect, and a calculation. If people think groudon is OP, i believe groudon is now the new Balanced hackmons defining pokemon and if people do not like it, look at how much impostor chansey has affected this meta. Look how all the good teams need to be imposter proof. Is it so different?
  9. Willdbeast

    Willdbeast

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    Stakeout is not easily switched in by dragon types:
    +2 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 440-518 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

    That's with PDon being a neutral nature and no boosting item, so i don't think you can really call that safe.
    However if you insist on running pdon that only carries V-create:
    +2 252+ Atk Choice Band Groudon-Primal V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 392-462 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    Yeah that's hardly safe either if you ask me, that's why fur coat was used a lot.

    But anyway stakeout is banned so that's irrelevant for the current suspect.

    You say Primal Groudon has counters, if you're so confident of this try to name one and I'm sure we can find at least 5 pdon sets that it can't switch into, and I don't mean random niche ones: notable ones listed in this thread already.

    Imposter Chansey isn't at all the current issue but the difference with that is you choose what moves and ability it gets, not the opponent, so it's a completely different kettle of fish.

    You can probably guess my opinion is definitely leaning towards Ban because of the mixture of sheer power Pdon has with stab V-create and it's versatility that lets it capitalise on the switches it forces. For me it is only the combination of these two factors that make it worth considering for ban: Pdon can OHKO almost any neutral mon if it's carrying choice band and it has the bulk and defensive typing that enables it to set up incredibly easily against most walls and utility mons even if they decide not to switch out. This is coupled with the amazing STABs and offensive stats that enable it to be so potent after setup in so many different ways.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  10. ElMustacho

    ElMustacho

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    Dec 4, 2016
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    I guess you don't understand how stakeout was used on Primal Groudon. Groudon ran stakeout to trash switch in, and it could do that on dragons too by using Fleur Cannon.
    +2 is used to simulate stakeout.
    +2 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 440-518 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
    Add SR
    +2 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 440-518 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    Or Zygarde.
    +2 252 SpA Groudon-Primal Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 514-606 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    You might argue that they can live the hit but they wont live the next one, even if it does 1/4 of the previous damage.
    Imposter is a different matter. You can run an imposterproof team, and then you are 100% sure that the enemy imposter will never be a threat, while still dealing with all the meta.
    But you can't run a Primal Groudon proof team and expect it to function well against the remaining meta. Just like you can't do it with MMY or whatever remaining powerhouse.
    Groudon isn't suspected because he's too powerful, it is suspected because it can run an enormous amount of sets and none of them shares a common check or counter. Even Stakeout had checks, but those checks weren't pokemon; they were the player reading the opponent's moves to send something, even not dedicated, to tank the predicted move. Yes, Fleur Cannon may have killed Giratina, but Solgaleo laughs at it.
  11. Affinitytank

    Affinitytank

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    One mon that may survive that set is flash fire aegislash, scizor-mega, celestela, skarmory, registeel, kartana and ferrothorn.
  12. Semako

    Semako

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    Celesteela and Skarmory die to Bolt Strike and Arrows, the remaining ones die to Precipice Blades.
  13. jrm115

    jrm115

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    uh
    groudon runs ground coverage
    again, +2 to simulate stakeout
    +2 252 Atk Groudon-Primal Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Aegislash-Shield: 444-524 (137 - 161.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Scizor-Mega: 258-304 (75 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO *edit: forgot evs here
    +2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Celesteela: 319-376 (80.1 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Skarmory: 258-304 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 488-576 (134 - 158.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ferrothorn: 271-319 (76.9 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    and again, stakeout is banned. but still, every other set that can "wall" pdon will end up getting thrashed by some random lure set like ss mguard, or contrary fleur, or pixiedon
  14. Affinitytank

    Affinitytank

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    What ever happened to imposter sets? Easiest scout
  15. ElMustacho

    ElMustacho

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    +2 252 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Groudon-Primal: 378-446 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252 Atk Groudon-Primal Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Groudon-Primal: 284-336 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    Taking 40%+ damage isn't scouting, it's suicide. That is STAB, you pretty much guaranteed to see one of these moves.
    And again this is stakeout and it's pointless to speak about that, since it is banned.
    Refer to this post to see common pdon sets and common answers to them. You'll see that every set has multiple answer, but pick 3 at random and look if they share a check.
  16. tegrof19

    tegrof19

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    Oct 10, 2012
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    and then pdon sets up shell smash as you try to scout

    and even if you scout, if pdon has the coverage to beat you, it is nigh impossible to win because of its stellar bulk
  17. Affinitytank

    Affinitytank

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    Very well, go with the easiest way to kill groudons. Moldbreaker aqua jet or water shuriken.
  18. Semako

    Semako

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    The opposing Groudon used Extreme Speed. It's super effective! Kyogre lost 100% of its health!
    Kyogre fainted!

    Apart from that:
    252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 300-360 (74.2 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Kyogre-Primal Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal: 156-184 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    So Mold Breaker Aqua Jet or Shuriken is no answer to any PDon.
  19. ElMustacho

    ElMustacho

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    Aqua jet never kills due to massive physical bulk, water shuriken is RNG reliant and anyway only Pogre can kill it and it needs 4 hits, that's 1/3 of the times. And Mold breaker won't help you break Desoland. You can't revenge kill groudon with water priority most of the times.

    Yes and no. It does have a nice defensive typing and a huge physical bulk, but it is weak to special hits and to Water. A lot weak to Water, special hits. Surf from 432 SpA or Steam Eruption from 354 SpA are both OHKO (not STAB), and are not that hard to pull off.
    In particular (first surf, then steam), base 167/128 for neutral spa nature not STAB, base 148/112 for positive spa nature not STAB, base 95/69 for neutral spa nature STAB, base 82/58 for positive spa nature STAB are enough to OHKO pdon, giving that it isn't immune.
    Yeah that's right, Gyrados has enough spa to kill Pdon with Steam Eruption, but not enough Atk to kill it with Waterfall.
    MMY, Mray and Deo-A can use Scald too, and in particular Psysurge Deoa outspeeds scarf adamant pdon and OHKOes it with Scald before potential priority from -ate, unless the ability saves its life.
  20. Pikachuun

    Pikachuun better be a good mon
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    [​IMG]

    Yeah this is one of PDon's most common sets and weather doesn't care about Mold Breaker, try again
    The sheer unpredictability of PDon is what is getting it banned, and even then its most common sets (Contrary, Desolate Land, Unburden, Tinted Lens going by August's usage stats) are still incredibly strong. It can break past its counters with minimal issues just by tweaking the set a bit, and it still does an impressive job at dealing with a ton of things if you run a set that could be considered more niche (Galvanize/Fridge for instance). I mean, I've even run Specs Tinted Eruption on this bad boy and it does quite good at catching FC users off-guard.
    But to answer your ultimate question, yes, people are frustrated because their teams can't handle it. In fact, no teams can without them being fundamentally flawed in some other way. That's why people are complaining it's OP, it simply is considering you have to run multiple walls to reliably beat it, and even then with the right coverage it can cheese past those anyway.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
    RNGIsFatal likes this.
  21. The Ruins of Alpha

    The Ruins of Alpha Drampa's Grandpa

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    This suspect is about neither Imposter nor Stakeout so why don't we stop talking about them? Stakeout is banned and Imposter is not going to be (if you want reasons why try asking in the om room. Ofc if it's relevant to the current suspect feel free.)

    I'm not a big BH player currently so I'm curious as to how people practically deal with PDon on their teams as of now. Do you simply prepare for the most common sets? Chuun talked a little about this but I would like a better picture as someone who hasn't played much recently.
    ScarfWynaut and motherlove like this.
  22. Willdbeast

    Willdbeast

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    Most (defensive) teams tend to have a bulky fur coat mon (often giratina) which can switch into most of the "flagship" sets, aka physical wall breakers with V-create and abilities like tinted lens. They also have a specially bulky AV user that isn't weak to its STABs or a specially bulky Unaware who can deal with (most) setup sets, an imposter to hopefully rk and more importantly scout and a prankster with haze and destiny bond to remove boosts and as a last resort. If you're very careful scouting normally these 4 mons are enough to stop it as long you don't get caught unprepared by strange coverage or just really uncommon sets (tinted lens specs eruption for example).
    There may be other styles of defensive core that deal with it but that's what I often see as the "standard", feel free to correct me if this is disagreed with.

    Offensive teams have a slightly easier time as long as it doesn't get a chance to set up and just run sashes all over the place to revenge kill or make sure the team is composed of soft offensive checks (for example specs surge mmy).
    The Ruins of Alpha likes this.
  23. Affinitytank

    Affinitytank

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    You would not be switching in your mold breaker into desolate land in the first place. Why would you do that? Its so obvious when the weather pops up.
  24. GL Volkner

    GL Volkner

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    252+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Mewtwo-Mega-X Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal: 284-336 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Gyarados-Mega Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal: 368-440 (91 - 108.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo-Mega-Y Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon-Primal: 384-456 (95 - 112.8%) -- approx. 81.3% chance to OHKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre-Primal Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon-Primal: 540-648 (133.6 - 160.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    I don't know wtf you're running Aqua Jet or Water Shuriken on but if you're using those as your Pdon check you're gonna have a really bad time as Kyogre/AshGren are p much the only mons that are guaranteed to OHKO with Water Shuriken so if you've been trying to use Water-type priority as your Pdon check on anything that aren't those two you're definitely doing it wrong ,_, Even then Water Shuriken/Aqua Jet are pretty weak in the first place and I wouldn't seriously run them on any Pokemon because you miss out on either utility or much better coverage for a move that doesn't even do what it's meant to

    Some common Pdon checks are like Scarf Psysurge MMY, Specs Boomburst MRay/KyuW or Steam Eruption Mega Diancie, but even the last two are shut down by a simple item change or ability change (Scarf, Soundproof and/or Water Absorb respectively) so even then Pdon is so versatile that it can beat the lures that are designed to beat it in the first place while not losing too much viability or not losing any at all lul Water Absorb Pdon in particular is a pretty good surprise and Scarf is definitely a good item on Pdon
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
    SomeIrish and Silver_Lucario42 like this.
  25. GmU pokeboss9

    GmU pokeboss9

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    Personally i favor a meta with P-Don.
    BH Gen 7 is out for a year and P-Don has proven to be in line with the other S ranks.

    I think BH is currently overbalanced;
    During OMPL i saw Gengarnite being allowed in AG, BH should have least bans of all.

    I played this AAA Sketchmons, it looked fun on paper, but in practise i had to build
    arround both AAA and Sketchmons restrictions.


    Many write P-Don is versatile, but they see it from the wrong perspective;
    Fsk is perfect example with his 12 sets he considers switch ins.
    BH switch ins are situational, always.

    During a match you have 5 opportunities to reset a bad matchup via getting KOed and reverse momentum.
    The Art of P-Don is chosing the most effective set for your team.

    Because of this P-Don can surprise at highest level.


    A while ago i made a list of P-Don abilities during OMPL.
    17/19 abilities can be proven via replays;

    Pixi
    Galva
    Stakeout
    unknown
    Stakeout
    Stakeout
    Illusion
    Tinted
    Stakeout
    Speed Boost
    Refridge
    Soundproof
    Illusion
    Sheer Force
    Water Absorb
    Speed Boost
    Tinted
    unknown


    Btw i watched a documentary, "Broken Arrow" is a codeword for a nuclear (missile) accident.
    So what does Thousand Arrows mean ?
    Klang likes this.

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  1. Ryota Mitarai