BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread



I'd like to talk about Mewtwo.

One of the most controversial issues from the beginning of Generation 7 BH is setup spams involving anti-priority abilities, also known as Psychic Surge, Dazzling, and Queenly Majesty. What I initially thought about these issues is that they almost invalidate counterplay once anything sets up (barring Prankster dbond and scarf Chansey) and it is potentially banworthy. However, after full EV limit made the metagame bulkier in general and OHKOs became way less common, I thought we could just pass on and look at other stuff, like, Sleep Clause and other things.

So here we are after Primal Groudon ban and what is the biggest threat? I'd say, the greatest threats are Mewtwo.
No other Pokemon in this tier has comparable stats when it comes to both offensive stats and Speed tier. With the coveted Psychic Surge, it can theoretically cancel one of its greatest drawbacks called priority. Last gen Mewtwo, especially MMY was pretty much a deadweight due to it being KO'd by any -ate users' FakeSpeed and all of the boosts being ruined by Encore or Topsy-Turvy from Prankster users. But now, not only Psychic Surge shuts down all of the aforementioned counterplay, but also it boosts Psychic-moves by 50% which led to people spamming Specs Psycho Boost.

At this point one might wonder why am I talking about Mewtwo instead of Psychic Surge, when it is the ability itself that is inherent cause of SpecsBoost spams and setup spams. I too, like others did, concluded Psychic Surge is the culprit of all the phenomenons I have mentioned... until I made some thoughts.

First off, who uses Psychic Surge other than MMX and MMY? Are there any viable Psychic types that are able to have this ability stapled into themselves and perform something different than both Mewtwo's? If we take stuff like Gardevoir, Lati@s, or Deoxys-A... they are just entirely worse. Gardevoir's second STAB doesn't really mean it is superior to MMY because it is vulnerable by its Speed tier that is slower than Mega Rayquaza and Gengar, Lati@s has both of its dual STAB walled by Steel-types and also suffer from their Speed tier, and Deoxys-A won't be given a second chance once it screws up. Mewtwo, over all of these 'mons, have blazing Speed tier that requires something like Pheromosa or Beedrill to outspeed, while they can always make lure sets for their usual checks thanks to their excellent mixed offensive stats. MMX mostly runs sash smash with CC and Stored Power which nothing other than stuff like Unaware Yveltal can handle, and MMY, who possesses the infamy of SpecsBoost that is almost as terrifying as Primal Groudon's V-create was, can always run Fleur Cannon to OHKO the most relevant Dark-types, Contrary to do the same, or run mixed stats to break the likes of Solgaleo and Registeel with ease.

I think Mewtwo's are potentially broken. Especially with USUM coming out next month, we cannot tell what new crazy abilities will Mewtwo equip to run rampant in the ladder as they always have been. Of course, some traits from Mewtwo are incomparable with Primal Groudon; MMX has mediocre STAB combination and Imposter switches into it all day, while MMY's SpecsBoost at least has an immunity and is vulnerable to Pursuit trapping.

But these two 'mons have their own way to eliminate these drawbacks; most of the MMX I see are

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Focus Sash
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Stored Power
- Close Combat
- Sunsteel Strike
- Shell Smash

... something similar to this or whatever that OHKO's its own Imposter, and full EV made MMY's life much more bearable.

Before:

252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 402-474 (113.8 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 420-494 (118.9 - 139.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 163-193 (46.1 - 54.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 322-379 (91.2 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

After:

252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 294-348 (70.6 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 308-366 (74 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 120-142 (28.8 - 34.1%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 237-280 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

---

So yeah. I'm not necessarily claiming that Mewtwo is inherently banworthy but I just wanted everyone, including myself, to have some time to think about whether we are approaching this problem in appropriate way, and I spent the time to point out primary abusers. What do you think?

Edit:
tldr; I think, if we were to solve anti-priority issue by banning stuff, removing MMX and MMY will be better than simply taking out Psychic Surge.
 
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I'd like to talk about Mewtwo.

One of the most controversial issues from the beginning of Generation 7 BH is setup spams involving anti-priority abilities, also known as Psychic Surge, Dazzling, and Queenly Majesty. What I initially thought about these issues is that they almost invalidate counterplay once anything sets up (barring Prankster dbond and scarf Chansey) and it is potentially banworthy. However, after full EV limit made the metagame bulkier in general and OHKOs became way less common, I thought we could just pass on and look at other stuff, like, Sleep Clause and other things.

So here we are after Primal Groudon ban and what is the biggest threat? I'd say, the greatest threats are Mewtwo.
No other Pokemon in this tier has comparable stats when it comes to both offensive stats and Speed tier. With the coveted Psychic Surge, it can theoretically cancel one of its greatest drawbacks called priority. Last gen Mewtwo, especially MMY was pretty much a deadweight due to it being KO'd by any -ate users' FakeSpeed and all of the boosts being ruined by Encore or Topsy-Turvy from Prankster users. But now, not only Psychic Surge shuts down all of the aforementioned counterplay, but also it boosts Psychic-moves by 50% which led to people spamming Specs Psycho Boost.

At this point one might wonder why am I talking about Mewtwo instead of Psychic Surge, when it is the ability itself that is inherent cause of SpecsBoost spams and setup spams. I too, like others did, concluded Psychic Surge is the culprit of all the phenomenons I have mentioned... until I made some thoughts.

First off, who uses Psychic Surge other than MMX and MMY? Are there any viable Psychic types that are able to have this ability stapled into themselves and perform something different than both Mewtwo's? If we take stuff like Gardevoir, Lati@s, or Deoxys-A... they are just entirely worse. Gardevoir's second STAB doesn't really mean it is superior to MMY because it is vulnerable by its Speed tier that is slower than Mega Rayquaza and Gengar, Lati@s has both of its dual STAB walled by Steel-types and also suffer from their Speed tier, and Deoxys-A won't be given a second chance once it screws up. Mewtwo, over all of these 'mons, have blazing Speed tier that requires something like Pheromosa or Beedrill to outspeed, while they can always make lure sets for their usual checks thanks to their excellent mixed offensive stats. MMX mostly runs sash smash with CC and Stored Power which nothing other than stuff like Unaware Yveltal can handle, and MMY, who possesses the infamy of SpecsBoost that is almost as terrifying as Primal Groudon's V-create was, can always run Fleur Cannon to OHKO the most relevant Dark-types, Contrary to do the same, or run mixed stats to break the likes of Solgaleo and Registeel with ease.

I think Mewtwo's are potentially broken. Especially with USUM coming out next month, we cannot tell what new crazy abilities will Mewtwo equip to run rampant in the ladder as they always have been. Of course, some traits from Mewtwo are incomparable with Primal Groudon; MMX has mediocre STAB combination and Imposter switches into it all day, while MMY's SpecsBoost at least has an immunity and is vulnerable to Pursuit trapping.

But these two 'mons have their own way to eliminate these drawbacks; most of the MMX I see are

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Focus Sash
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Stored Power
- Close Combat
- Sunsteel Strike
- Shell Smash

... something similar to this or whatever that OHKO's its own Imposter, and full EV made MMY's life much more bearable.

Before:

252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 402-474 (113.8 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 420-494 (118.9 - 139.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 163-193 (46.1 - 54.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 322-379 (91.2 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

After:

252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 294-348 (70.6 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 308-366 (74 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 120-142 (28.8 - 34.1%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 237-280 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

---

So yeah. I'm not necessarily claiming that Mewtwo is inherently banworthy but I just wanted everyone, including myself, to have some time to think about whether we are approaching this problem in appropriate way, and I spent the time to point out primary abusers. What do you think?

Edit:
tldr; I think, if we were to solve anti-priority issue by banning stuff, removing MMX and MMY will be better than simply taking out Psychic Surge.
Bans are not healthy for the meta IMO.

When I first learnt about psychic surge, it came as a GodSend otherwise I would've gotten wrecked every time by Tail Glow Triage Rayquaza and the -ates. You could say that imposter chansey beats those mons but not everybody wants that "meta defining" pink blob on their team.

Both mewtwos have their purpose in the meta as wall breakers, Anti Priority Support and Mixed Offense Sweepers. The counters to these mons are not limited and are very common to keep them "in check". A spam of either is hard to beat yes but I've experienced and seen teams that simply laugh at mmx & mmy and wipe them out.

PS. We need to have a sleep clause, its long overdue.
 


I'd like to talk about Mewtwo.

One of the most controversial issues from the beginning of Generation 7 BH is setup spams involving anti-priority abilities, also known as Psychic Surge, Dazzling, and Queenly Majesty. What I initially thought about these issues is that they almost invalidate counterplay once anything sets up (barring Prankster dbond and scarf Chansey) and it is potentially banworthy. However, after full EV limit made the metagame bulkier in general and OHKOs became way less common, I thought we could just pass on and look at other stuff, like, Sleep Clause and other things.

So here we are after Primal Groudon ban and what is the biggest threat? I'd say, the greatest threats are Mewtwo.
No other Pokemon in this tier has comparable stats when it comes to both offensive stats and Speed tier. With the coveted Psychic Surge, it can theoretically cancel one of its greatest drawbacks called priority. Last gen Mewtwo, especially MMY was pretty much a deadweight due to it being KO'd by any -ate users' FakeSpeed and all of the boosts being ruined by Encore or Topsy-Turvy from Prankster users. But now, not only Psychic Surge shuts down all of the aforementioned counterplay, but also it boosts Psychic-moves by 50% which led to people spamming Specs Psycho Boost.

At this point one might wonder why am I talking about Mewtwo instead of Psychic Surge, when it is the ability itself that is inherent cause of SpecsBoost spams and setup spams. I too, like others did, concluded Psychic Surge is the culprit of all the phenomenons I have mentioned... until I made some thoughts.

First off, who uses Psychic Surge other than MMX and MMY? Are there any viable Psychic types that are able to have this ability stapled into themselves and perform something different than both Mewtwo's? If we take stuff like Gardevoir, Lati@s, or Deoxys-A... they are just entirely worse. Gardevoir's second STAB doesn't really mean it is superior to MMY because it is vulnerable by its Speed tier that is slower than Mega Rayquaza and Gengar, Lati@s has both of its dual STAB walled by Steel-types and also suffer from their Speed tier, and Deoxys-A won't be given a second chance once it screws up. Mewtwo, over all of these 'mons, have blazing Speed tier that requires something like Pheromosa or Beedrill to outspeed, while they can always make lure sets for their usual checks thanks to their excellent mixed offensive stats. MMX mostly runs sash smash with CC and Stored Power which nothing other than stuff like Unaware Yveltal can handle, and MMY, who possesses the infamy of SpecsBoost that is almost as terrifying as Primal Groudon's V-create was, can always run Fleur Cannon to OHKO the most relevant Dark-types, Contrary to do the same, or run mixed stats to break the likes of Solgaleo and Registeel with ease.

I think Mewtwo's are potentially broken. Especially with USUM coming out next month, we cannot tell what new crazy abilities will Mewtwo equip to run rampant in the ladder as they always have been. Of course, some traits from Mewtwo are incomparable with Primal Groudon; MMX has mediocre STAB combination and Imposter switches into it all day, while MMY's SpecsBoost at least has an immunity and is vulnerable to Pursuit trapping.

But these two 'mons have their own way to eliminate these drawbacks; most of the MMX I see are

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Focus Sash
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Stored Power
- Close Combat
- Sunsteel Strike
- Shell Smash

... something similar to this or whatever that OHKO's its own Imposter, and full EV made MMY's life much more bearable.

Before:

252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 402-474 (113.8 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 420-494 (118.9 - 139.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 163-193 (46.1 - 54.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 322-379 (91.2 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

After:

252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 294-348 (70.6 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 308-366 (74 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 120-142 (28.8 - 34.1%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 237-280 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

---

So yeah. I'm not necessarily claiming that Mewtwo is inherently banworthy but I just wanted everyone, including myself, to have some time to think about whether we are approaching this problem in appropriate way, and I spent the time to point out primary abusers. What do you think?

Edit:
tldr; I think, if we were to solve anti-priority issue by banning stuff, removing MMX and MMY will be better than simply taking out Psychic Surge.
I'm going to be short; MMXY is powerful, but not even close to broken. We can't compare MMY specsboost to don's V-create since MMY screams surge the turn it enters the field. Also pdon wasn't banned for it's very powerful V-create, but for the dozen of sets it had. MMY has like 3, maybe 4 (specs boost, contrary, sheer force, maybe crittwo?). Psychic is also a pretty bad offensive typing, as basically nothing is weak to it (mgar is already afraid of being outspeed), many sets carry immunities to it or quadruple/double resistance to the point where sheer force can afford not to run stab. Specs boost is prediction reliant, one bad move and you get pursuit trapped. Terrain can be overwritten too, misty surge is used to check ph, electric surge to abuse zekrom/xurk, and grassy surge if you like walking in the park. Smash sash can be done by everyone, it's not a MMX toy.
 
Minor thing: I noticed Extreme Evoboost is listed as a separate ban from CFZs. But isn't it legal via Z-crystal Eevee? Meaning it'd fall under the CFZ ban?

Not a big deal, but talking to a friend who occasionally plays competitive Pokemon super casually and asking about the BH ban list, he found it confusing.