Ladder Balanced Hackmons

Verbatim said it'd be this weekend. Could go up sometime today and still be on time.


Unrelated, dicking around with some random stuff, Delta Stream Zapdos looks interesting on paper, but is kind of meh in practice. Maybe I'm not running a bulky enough spread for it to take advantage of the ability (252 HP currently as opposed to 252 Def + Sp. D), maybe it just sucks because it doesn't have proper team support on a "test random unrelated crap" team, or maybe it's just not strong enough to begin with. Probably the latter but, I might poke at it again sometime.

Meanwhile, Sheer Force Sceptile is pretty nasty. Seed Flare with STAB, LO, and Sheer Force boost lets it just blow through a lot of things if the acc doesn't hate you (although Energy Ball is an option for more acc at the cost of a fair bit of power). I paired it with Earth Power and Steam Eruption for coverage, which worked nicely and meant Imposters couldn't hurt it too bad if I had to stay in on them, but there's probably a better coverage combo out there since I just threw it together on a whim with no real thought, especially if you don't care about Imposters, but it that combo pretty much outsped and plowed through all those frail offensive teams like butter without set-up. Although -ates really love this thing. >.> Also might have more difficulty against someone who actually knows how to play defense. So much "SPAM -ATE SPAM CONTRARY!" on the mid ladder right now, where my test alts tend to end up hovering.
 

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I posted this in the BH Creative sets but I thought I'd post it here too.This guy has been putting in shifts, and not just on my team as a great non-niche Ray counter in case you guys would like to try it out

Ragnarock (Regirock) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: null Spe
- Volt Switch
- Infestation
- Sacred Fire
- Diamond Storm


I no longer view soundproof as an ate counter for quite some time now so I proceeded to something simpler: something bulky with resist that can hit back. This guy does the trick with stab storm dealing hefty damage and the natural defense letting it take on almost (key word no set can counter them all) any ray set and hit back pretty well. This makes it better than alternatives like registeel which have been suggested which has to pick between its defenses and cannot hit back (and can also shrug off any stray magma storms easily).

But it's also designed not to be a completely useless one dimensional set and can spread status, take on shed, and be tanky enough to take a few strong hits, for example like Lcass4919 saw, steam eruption from ogre and an odd strong thousand arrows/precipice.

Unrelated but I'm also planning on throwing together an RMT for some old teams sometime if there's interest lel.
 
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E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Double post but I was just reading through all the old posts and was pretty bemused. I'm gonna start off with a few points to make my last.

1)
Assume that Ates are banned.

Lcass I was interested in the way you phrased that protean would be banned after the ates would and I agree that it would become a pretty strong ability -- without the ate revenge killing mechanism we have in place in ates. I have been mentioning pretty often that I can forsee a string of bans trickling down steadily if ates are banned completely. Ates have a very popular role in being the prime revenge killers when nothing else is keeping strong sets like a perfect coverage protean with shed backup in line, or at least threatened. If we remove ates, I fear that not only protean, but also a lot of other sets that may come up could be suspect worthy down the line e.g. the new weather abilities with scarf, or even mundane abilities like adaptability and the like, purely because we have set the precedent of banning protean and because our prime revenge killer outside of shed was taken. I understand that the argument that "if something keeps another broken thing in check it does not imply it is not broken" but I don't think that is what's happening; removing ates is removing a big chunk of the meta because they together with chans and shed keep proteans and the like in line by just being options that people can use, taking advantage of the fact that players are inherently limited to only 4 moves. It would be far easier for me to run a protean set if I knew I did not have to run one of King's Shield to counter ates, something to hit shed, and something to make sure I do not lose to chansey easily. I believe you made a similar point on this before with your rejection of the "rocks papers scissors" approach to bh which echoes what I mean in the role of ates in the tier. However, we have banned ates because they are too apparently too strong to handle -- that is the decision we must examine.

2)
Did anyone actually think that ates was difficult to stop if we went with our original proposal of having two per team before mRay was in the fray? I didn't think there were many people who did and it got a pretty widespread agreement; why then should we make all the other mons who are good with ate suffer just because of ray? Banning ate altogether because one mon is exceedingly better at it than the rest? I agree with the sentiment that ate use was widespread but I don't see how this is a bad thing if it's, as assumed, manageable. Did we ban imposter because chansey is widespread and is much better at running it than anyone else? Noone has still gotten back to me on my original question of whether they have been just completely stumped on how to stop ates and have been losing games no matter what they did especially if the scenario becomes that they've been limited to two per team. I still firmly believe that they are not broken -- centralizing sure but that's just how things in BH have been for a long time, there's been a bunch of centralizing things which we've all used that never got banned purely on that virtue alone e.g. spore, imposter, unaware (gen5), shed etc. And it's not like they only provide harm to the tier. Like chansey and shed they've become part of the meta game and keep a lot of other things in check. Therefore banning all ates to stop one mon seems like a bit of an overreaction, when the problem doesn't seem to be in them inherently but in Mega Rayquaza (i). Let's examine mega rayquaza a bit more closely to see what the problem is.

2)
Mega Rayquaza is a fearsome mon with 180/180/115 spread and is a favorite attacker of mine. Having said that, would you be as worried about it as you are now if you are told say it will not be running aerilate? Let's assume it doesn't; with other sets it does not seem that horrendously bad at all. Protean would be powerful sure but not if we knew we had ates besides Ray to take them on along with stronger faster proteans and other mons -- many options that are still available. You guys have already stated that other abilities like gale wings and contrary while powerful on it would be easier to handle than the dominant aerilate set. Therefore, what is indirectly being said is that mega Rayquaza by himself is not broken and does not seem necessary to ban outright from the tier(ii).

Why can't we make a decision that combined what I am trying to say in points (i) and (ii)? Aerilate on rayquaza should be banned if a decision is needed to be made at all. I know there is a general aversion to complex bans, but this really seems a choice between BH's inaugural pokemon ban (which I personally think should never happen) or having a forseeable string of further bans on complete abilities purely because we have arleady broken our duck and started with banning one. Starting out with the most extreme measures and just starting to ban things doesn't really sit well with me when they are not truly necessary.

Not to be rude, but there seems to be a lot of hysteria instead of actual field testing with different mons. Of course, if you go in again and again with the same team with only a few tweaks to a few moves at a time you're not going to get very far because of the endless permutations that people run with the same offensive threats. I went ahead and just started to try more walls like the regirock above, because my logic is that until it gets to the point where I cannot come up with an answer to something, that something should not be banned. And I don't mean me specifically as if I'm the only decider here, I mean in general if the entire tier, not even one person can handle the threat efficiently without using extreme out of the way sets, that's when we should start banning things. This kind of requirement already is satisfied by what has been banned already from using sturdy for no guard sheer cold, shed shell for shadow tag, using certain otherwise useless moves to contain evasion, to finally the huge power and parental bond mons to which there are no true counters at all.

I hope I was able to put across what I mean properly.
 
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I agree that neither Aerilate nor Mega Rayquaza are too nuts on their own. It's really the combination that makes it so, SO far over the top and difficult to counter. Aerilate is powerful, but fair on other mons. Mega Rayquaza is still among the best offensive threats without Aerilate, running Protean, Contrary, or even Gale Wings and abusing it's absurd mixed attacking stats. However, both would be manageable without the other.

I generally don't like complex bans, but this is a case where I think it would serve the tier best.

Though I will say that I think there are other cases where -ates are too good, it's almost always because of STAB Extreme Speed. Look at Mega Diancie as an example of another -ate user that's borderline too good, or Kyurem-B. I also wouldn't be opposed to a ban on Extreme Speed + -ates, though I think that still leaves an issue (Fake Out + Boomburst is still a big game).
 
As with my previous argument, I still primarily support Fake Out, Extreme Speed, and Boomburst + -ate complex as my goto suggestion as opposed to an outright ban. The priority nuking hurts huge swaths of potentially viable Pokemon (particularly many of them in the 130+ speed tiers) and Boomburst + STAB + -ate boost is really just insane and pretty much forces you to run Steels or weird obscure checks like Soundproof walls. Removing those three moves would bring them in check without hurting their viability since they'd still have good moves they could use.
 
I see Extreme Speed as a larger issue than Boomburst, simply because you can easily revenge kill an -ate user with a Scarfer or faster mon. That's not the case when they have 160 BP Extreme Speed that OHKOs everything but walls.
 
yeah E speed ate can be a bit OP but idk you could just run shift gear instead of fake out and the problem just changes to a stronger move.
 
yeah E speed ate can be a bit OP but idk you could just run shift gear instead of fake out and the problem just changes to a stronger move.
Major difference is this requires set-up time, time you might not be able to get against your opponent, and is vulnerable to Prankster anti-set up measures, which keeps it in check much more readily than it can Extreme Speed. Along with all the other anti-setup stuff.
 

Pikachuun

the entire waruda machine
Oh btw guys Hyperspace Hole is no longer working. I got the message when I tried using it, it said my pokemon "can't move/stopped moving" or something like that.
Hyperspace Fury isn't working?

Finally I can run Soundproof Slowbro-M again!
 

Grim

The Ghost
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I would personally rather have an -Ate ban than a Rayquaza-Mega Ban. Sure, Ray is very powerful, but it's much less scary without Aerilate. It would still be a great threat, but nothing that we can't handle.

Banning Aerilate, Pixilate, and Refrigerate would in my opinion only be good for the tier. Playstyles such as Hyper Offense would suddenly become viable, as opposed to the bulky offense/semi stall that's everywhere at the moment. Frail Pokemon like Mewtwo-Mega X/Y, Gengar, and even some bulkier pokemon would not have to run King's Shield anymore, making room for coverage. Teams could stop using pokemon like Regirock (it's not that bad, but let's be honest; it would not be used in BH if it didn't beat -Ate users), Registeel, and other dedicated -Ate counters.

Banning Rayquaza would not solve the -Ate problem at all. Diancie-Mega only has 20 less Atk and SpA than Ray, and is almost as broken. Rumors' suggestion for a complex ban of Fake Out + Extremespeed + Boomburst would help, but people would just start using Techno Blast instead of Boomburst. Some even do already because it defeats specially frail Soundproof walls like Slowbro-Mega.

Of course you could argue that the -Ate abilities are part of BH, just like Shedinja and Chansey. However, I believe that the -Ate abilities are arguably worse than Imposter and Sturdinja, simply because Chansey's usefulness depends on your opponent, and Sturdinja is vulnerable to weather, status, and partial trapping moves.

I hope I was able to make my point. :)
 
Long post incoming:

GrimoireGod I'm not going to dissect that like I have other posts in the past, because I believe some of the points you're making are valid, particularly these:

Frail Pokemon like Mewtwo-Mega X/Y, Gengar, and even some bulkier pokemon would not have to run King's Shield anymore, making room for coverage.
because in my opinion that's the most irritating consequence of the -ates' continued existence, as it severely limits what I can run on those Pokemon, and makes Choiced Protean sets (like the Specs and Band ones I saw people like Kit and Kumi running late in the pre-ORAS era) practically unviable, and

Rumors' suggestion for a complex ban of Fake Out + Extremespeed + Boomburst would help, but people would just start using Techno Blast instead of Boomburst. Some even do already because it defeats specially frail Soundproof walls like Slowbro-Mega.
because it's true; Techno Blast really isn't that much of a downgrade from Boomburst.

There are a couple of things I disagree with, though. One of these is the idea that Regirock, Registeel, and other similar walls (Slowbro-Mega and Aggron-Mega, maybe?) are "dedicated -ate counters." For Regirock, for instance, I can see how you would make the argument. But even without talking about the -ates, let's see what Flint said about it (my bold added):

But it's also designed not to be a completely useless one dimensional set and can spread status, take on shed, and be tanky enough to take a few strong hits, for example like Lcass4919 saw, steam eruption from ogre and an odd strong thousand arrows/precipice.
And as for Registeel, things like Flash Fire Registeel and Aegislash have been fixtures in the BH metagame for quite a long time, though their utility has ebbed and flowed. I'd even argue that it's at an ebb right now, because, as Flint also said, it has to split its defenses and Boomburst is a constant concern. For that reason I would say that Registeel and the like might actually become more useful if -ates were banned.

However, I don't think I favor a complete ban on -ates. A complex ban of some sort seems like the best option, though we risk overcomplicating the meta for new players. Rumors' suggestion of a complex ban of Fake Out + ExtremeSpeed + Boomburst seems like an okay option. As you said, that limits -ate abusers to Techno Blast, which is still viable. However, then they can be stopped by any routine special wall. A complex ban would at least foster more creativity. We might see a resurgence in these original sorts of sets, things that were used in the pre-ORAS and pre-EV change metas:

Kyurem-White @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest/Timid Nature
- Techno Blast
- Volt Switch
- Magma Storm
- Switcheroo

Aerodactyl-Mega @ Flame Orb
Ability: Aerilate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Facade
- Spore/King's Shield/Dark Void/Infestation
- Swords Dance/kings shield/infest
- Roost


On paper, a complex ban seems like the best option. However, in theory, it might be overcomplicating a meta that, as is, has a mostly simple banlist.

tl;dr Registeel and Regirock are not useless, and if -ates were banned, they might even be more useful. A complex ban seems like the best solution, except for the fact that it's a complex ban.
 

AWailOfATail

viva la darmz
Personally, I don't find -ates that big of a problem, nor Boomburst/ESpeed. It's the combination of the two (and Fake Out) that just make it seem overpowered. To paraphrase LLW Gao Changgong, it's the combination of revenge killing and wall breaking that makes them broken.

So how do we limit this? I am against banning -ates AND against banning Pokemon. As Uselesscrab said,
I don't think I favor a complete ban on -ates. A complex ban of some sort seems like the best option, though we risk overcomplicating the meta for new players.
BH needs to have a complex ban that isn't complex. I know that sounds ridiculous, but it really isn't. I was thinking of limiting each -ate user to only 2 (previously) Normal attacking moves, as they would all be forced to abide to the Fake Out + ExtremeSpeed + Boomburst rule.
Another way of going about this would be to prevent all -ates from carrying both a Physical Normal move and a Special Normal move. Keeps them from breaking through walls with sheer power, forcing them to rely on coverage (which was being done anyway).

I'm just spitting out ideas here, I have more but they're ridiculous

Oh, and I only really have a problem with Aerilate, as the other two share similar resistances, but they still probably need to be restricted.
 
Flint 4 Prez?
Everyone who has an argument should read Flint's post because it's probably refuted there. ^_^

Double post but I was just reading through all the old posts and was pretty bemused. I'm gonna start off with a few points to make my last.

1)
Assume that Ates are banned.

Lcass I was interested in the way you phrased that protean would be banned after the ates would and I agree that it would become a pretty strong ability -- without the ate revenge killing mechanism we have in place in ates. I have been mentioning pretty often that I can forsee a string of bans trickling down steadily if ates are banned completely. Ates have a very popular role in being the prime revenge killers when nothing else is keeping strong sets like a perfect coverage protean with shed backup in line, or at least threatened. If we remove ates, I fear that not only protean, but also a lot of other sets that may come up could be suspect worthy down the line e.g. the new weather abilities with scarf, or even mundane abilities like adaptability and the like, purely because we have set the precedent of banning protean and because our prime revenge killer outside of shed was taken. I understand that the argument that "if something keeps another broken thing in check it does not imply it is not broken" but I don't think that is what's happening; removing ates is removing a big chunk of the meta because they together with chans and shed keep proteans and the like in line by just being options that people can use, taking advantage of the fact that players are inherently limited to only 4 moves. It would be far easier for me to run a protean set if I knew I did not have to run one of King's Shield to counter ates, something to hit shed, and something to make sure I do not lose to chansey easily. I believe you made a similar point on this before with your rejection of the "rocks papers scissors" approach to bh which echoes what I mean in the role of ates in the tier. However, we have banned ates because they are too apparently too strong to handle -- that is the decision we must examine.

2)
Did anyone actually think that ates was difficult to stop if we went with our original proposal of having two per team before mRay was in the fray? I didn't think there were many people who did and it got a pretty widespread agreement; why then should we make all the other mons who are good with ate suffer just because of ray? Banning ate altogether because one mon is exceedingly better at it than the rest? I agree with the sentiment that ate use was widespread but I don't see how this is a bad thing if it's, as assumed, manageable. Did we ban imposter because chansey is widespread and is much better at running it than anyone else? Noone has still gotten back to me on my original question of whether they have been just completely stumped on how to stop ates and have been losing games no matter what they did especially if the scenario becomes that they've been limited to two per team. I still firmly believe that they are not broken -- centralizing sure but that's just how things in BH have been for a long time, there's been a bunch of centralizing things which we've all used that never got banned purely on that virtue alone e.g. spore, imposter, unaware (gen5), shed etc. And it's not like they only provide harm to the tier. Like chansey and shed they've become part of the meta game and keep a lot of other things in check. Therefore banning all ates to stop one mon seems like a bit of an overreaction, when the problem doesn't seem to be in them inherently but in Mega Rayquaza (i). Let's examine mega rayquaza a bit more closely to see what the problem is.

2)
Mega Rayquaza is a fearsome mon with 180/180/115 spread and is a favorite attacker of mine. Having said that, would you be as worried about it as you are now if you are told say it will not be running aerilate? Let's assume it doesn't; with other sets it does not seem that horrendously bad at all. Protean would be powerful sure but not if we knew we had ates besides Ray to take them on along with stronger faster proteans and other mons -- many options that are still available. You guys have already stated that other abilities like gale wings and contrary while powerful on it would be easier to handle than the dominant aerilate set. Therefore, what is indirectly being said is that mega Rayquaza by himself is not broken and does not seem necessary to ban outright from the tier(ii).

Why can't we make a decision that combined what I am trying to say in points (i) and (ii)? Aerilate on rayquaza should be banned if a decision is needed to be made at all. I know there is a general aversion to complex bans, but this really seems a choice between BH's inaugural pokemon ban (which I personally think should never happen) or having a forseeable string of further bans on complete abilities purely because we have arleady broken our duck and started with banning one. Starting out with the most extreme measures and just starting to ban things doesn't really sit well with me when they are not truly necessary.

Not to be rude, but there seems to be a lot of hysteria instead of actual field testing with different mons. Of course, if you go in again and again with the same team with only a few tweaks to a few moves at a time you're not going to get very far because of the endless permutations that people run with the same offensive threats. I went ahead and just started to try more walls like the regirock above, because my logic is that until it gets to the point where I cannot come up with an answer to something, that something should not be banned. And I don't mean me specifically as if I'm the only decider here, I mean in general if the entire tier, not even one person can handle the threat efficiently without using extreme out of the way sets, that's when we should start banning things. This kind of requirement already is satisfied by what has been banned already from using sturdy for no guard sheer cold, shed shell for shadow tag, using certain otherwise useless moves to contain evasion, to finally the huge power and parental bond mons to which there are no true counters at all.

I hope I was able to put across what I mean properly.


As long as King's Shield exists, Fake-Espeed will NEVER come close to needing a ban.

IMO, the ONLY thing that we should even consider banning is stab -ate boom burst, because that has almost nothing that can repeatedly switch in to -ates in general. Everything else is so so manageable with a little creativity and sucking it up.[/hide]
 
Flint 4 Prez?
Everyone who has an argument should read Flint's post because it's probably refuted there. ^_^

Double post but I was just reading through all the old posts and was pretty bemused. I'm gonna start off with a few points to make my last.

1)
Assume that Ates are banned.

Lcass I was interested in the way you phrased that protean would be banned after the ates would and I agree that it would become a pretty strong ability -- without the ate revenge killing mechanism we have in place in ates. I have been mentioning pretty often that I can forsee a string of bans trickling down steadily if ates are banned completely. Ates have a very popular role in being the prime revenge killers when nothing else is keeping strong sets like a perfect coverage protean with shed backup in line, or at least threatened. If we remove ates, I fear that not only protean, but also a lot of other sets that may come up could be suspect worthy down the line e.g. the new weather abilities with scarf, or even mundane abilities like adaptability and the like, purely because we have set the precedent of banning protean and because our prime revenge killer outside of shed was taken. I understand that the argument that "if something keeps another broken thing in check it does not imply it is not broken" but I don't think that is what's happening; removing ates is removing a big chunk of the meta because they together with chans and shed keep proteans and the like in line by just being options that people can use, taking advantage of the fact that players are inherently limited to only 4 moves. It would be far easier for me to run a protean set if I knew I did not have to run one of King's Shield to counter ates, something to hit shed, and something to make sure I do not lose to chansey easily. I believe you made a similar point on this before with your rejection of the "rocks papers scissors" approach to bh which echoes what I mean in the role of ates in the tier. However, we have banned ates because they are too apparently too strong to handle -- that is the decision we must examine.

2)
Did anyone actually think that ates was difficult to stop if we went with our original proposal of having two per team before mRay was in the fray? I didn't think there were many people who did and it got a pretty widespread agreement; why then should we make all the other mons who are good with ate suffer just because of ray? Banning ate altogether because one mon is exceedingly better at it than the rest? I agree with the sentiment that ate use was widespread but I don't see how this is a bad thing if it's, as assumed, manageable. Did we ban imposter because chansey is widespread and is much better at running it than anyone else? Noone has still gotten back to me on my original question of whether they have been just completely stumped on how to stop ates and have been losing games no matter what they did especially if the scenario becomes that they've been limited to two per team. I still firmly believe that they are not broken -- centralizing sure but that's just how things in BH have been for a long time, there's been a bunch of centralizing things which we've all used that never got banned purely on that virtue alone e.g. spore, imposter, unaware (gen5), shed etc. And it's not like they only provide harm to the tier. Like chansey and shed they've become part of the meta game and keep a lot of other things in check. Therefore banning all ates to stop one mon seems like a bit of an overreaction, when the problem doesn't seem to be in them inherently but in Mega Rayquaza (i). Let's examine mega rayquaza a bit more closely to see what the problem is.

2)
Mega Rayquaza is a fearsome mon with 180/180/115 spread and is a favorite attacker of mine. Having said that, would you be as worried about it as you are now if you are told say it will not be running aerilate? Let's assume it doesn't; with other sets it does not seem that horrendously bad at all. Protean would be powerful sure but not if we knew we had ates besides Ray to take them on along with stronger faster proteans and other mons -- many options that are still available. You guys have already stated that other abilities like gale wings and contrary while powerful on it would be easier to handle than the dominant aerilate set. Therefore, what is indirectly being said is that mega Rayquaza by himself is not broken and does not seem necessary to ban outright from the tier(ii).

Why can't we make a decision that combined what I am trying to say in points (i) and (ii)? Aerilate on rayquaza should be banned if a decision is needed to be made at all. I know there is a general aversion to complex bans, but this really seems a choice between BH's inaugural pokemon ban (which I personally think should never happen) or having a forseeable string of further bans on complete abilities purely because we have arleady broken our duck and started with banning one. Starting out with the most extreme measures and just starting to ban things doesn't really sit well with me when they are not truly necessary.

Not to be rude, but there seems to be a lot of hysteria instead of actual field testing with different mons. Of course, if you go in again and again with the same team with only a few tweaks to a few moves at a time you're not going to get very far because of the endless permutations that people run with the same offensive threats. I went ahead and just started to try more walls like the regirock above, because my logic is that until it gets to the point where I cannot come up with an answer to something, that something should not be banned. And I don't mean me specifically as if I'm the only decider here, I mean in general if the entire tier, not even one person can handle the threat efficiently without using extreme out of the way sets, that's when we should start banning things. This kind of requirement already is satisfied by what has been banned already from using sturdy for no guard sheer cold, shed shell for shadow tag, using certain otherwise useless moves to contain evasion, to finally the huge power and parental bond mons to which there are no true counters at all.

I hope I was able to put across what I mean properly.


As long as King's Shield exists, Fake-Espeed will NEVER come close to needing a ban.

IMO, the ONLY thing that we should even consider banning is stab -ate boom burst, because that has almost nothing that can repeatedly switch in to -ates in general. Everything else is so so manageable with a little creativity and sucking it up.[/hide]
Yeah, if we ban either Fake Out + ESpeed with -ates or just Boomburst with -ates, purely physical and special variants are really easy to handle.
 
I'm just throwing this out there as the possible options I'm seeing in response to ates, because I'm not experienced enough to add to this discussion.

The simple bans:

Ban the abilities themselves. This is very straightforward.

Ban the pokemon that use these abilities. As is this.

Ban the moves that these abilities make powerful. Not that this was suggested, but I'll put it here anyway.

The thing with these is, while they are very simple, they cause major collateral damage to things that aren't necessarily broken. Now mray may or may not be broken w/o aerilate, but we'll cross that road when we get there.

Now for the bit more confusing ones:

Treat all ates as 1 ability, subject the the current ability clause.
This was being talked about for a long time now, and is relatively simple to understand.

Make it so only 1 of each ate ability can be used.
I forgot who suggested this. It's a bit different from the above, but has the same overall effect that you can just spam ate, while still keeping its power.

Ban/limit certain moves/pokemon used together with ates.
This is intriguing, but seems overly complex for anyone wanting to get into the meta.
 
Why not ban Ate on of type if the mon gets stab on it?
Like Ice type + refridge = banned

Like uhhh;
No stab -ate

Like I don't find -ate's being powerful on their own with powerful priority and boomburst but the thing that they get stab from transferring the move to the their own type makes them ridicilous
30% + transferring to other type= alright can be handled well and still powerful
+ 50% on that? fuck no.
 

AWailOfATail

viva la darmz
Why not ban Ate on of type if the mon gets stab on it?
Like Ice type + refridge = banned

Like uhhh;
No stab -ate

Like I don't find -ate's being powerful on their own with powerful priority and boomburst but the thing that they get stab from transferring the move to the their own type makes them ridicilous
30% + transferring to other type= alright can be handled well and still powerful
+ 50% on that? fuck no.
That's honestly fantastic
Cuts down on absolute power but opens niches for other pokes to use it

AWOAT seal of approval
 
I'll just relink my post from the suspect discussion from a bit ago. It's a bit outdated since Mega-Ray and Mega-Diancie weren't a things yet, but they just reinforce the point. Although I think I missed a counter-arguement that, while King's Shield can stop some E. Speed spam, having to shove King's Shield on everything that can't take an -ate E. Speed isn't exactly healthy. (Along with the other points of why KS existing doesn't prevent -ates from being problematic that I did bring up.)

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons-suspect-discussion.3515725/#post-5759862
 

E4 Flint

-inactive in BH due corrupt leader-
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It's not like we don't do some of that already. Why would we have to run things like infestation if Shedinja was not around? Why would judgment pop up if Imposter was not in the field? You counter what is in the tier, which is common in every meta. I think I spoke to Adrian about this but saying that having to think about Refrigerate when doing team construction is a bad counter argument since you have to do that for literally everything in the tier. And KShield is not put only for Espeed, it is a versatile defensive move in general.
 
Maybe its just me, but I would still use infestation even without shedinja around, because the infestation PH kyogre set I got from Lcass is very helpful for beating imposters.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
well obviously on certain ph sets infestation is a good choice, but hes referring to shit like infest on protean or other pure offensive abilities/pokes
 
Palkia @ Lustrous Orb
Ability: Mega Launcher
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Origin Pulse
- Dragon Pulse
- Aura Sphere
- Shell Smash

Undeniably obvious set, but great purpose- Lose no HP from STAB, auto-boost STAB, and get a boost on Aura Sphere. Shell Smash so it can go first, no Speed investment so it can take the hit before losing the defenses.
 
So guys as one of the mad scientists around I felt like doing some ability/move analyzing for niche level moves and abilities one might consider if they ever get the need.

WonderSkin
What does it do? It makes all status marked moves that effect the mon to be dropped to 50% accuracy.
Pros: it makes moves like parting shot, topsy turvy, encore, dark void, spore, etc have 50% chance to miss.
Why use wonderskin over magic bounce? Few reasons: You're not shifted away when hit by parting shot. And you can bluff "hax" against moves like dark void (useful against PH kyogres) And as added bonus you can kill momentum against foes that waste turn and might even free a item slot.
Cons: 50%, as in, not 100% meaning its not always reliable. If you like to gamble, this ability can be used. If you want to be 100% ensurerance, do not use this ability.

ShieldDust
What does it do? All moves that have set percentage secondary effect do not cause the secondary effect to occur (basicly anti serene grace)
Pros: Useful on physical sweepers and alike that worry about status that might cripple their speed/attack. As in BH, burns and paralyze are usualy seen in form of steameruption/scald/sacredfire/nuzzle/zap/inferno. Can cause little confusion on the enemy. Also frees a item slot from lum to other type of items (safety goggle for near full proof!)
Why not poison heal? Cause poison heal needs to activate thus you can throw in shieldduster at anytime in to soak up status dangerous moves. PHs could also have bit different mons/roles than ShieldDust in my personal opinion.
Cons: This ability is pretty much designed for attackers in mind but does not do much to help them up the offensive. Thus its a trade off against damage and other abilities that can help in that regards vs shielddust. not to mention shield dust does not protect from direct status moves and not all teams run status infecting moves in the first place, so this is very niche ability in those regards.

Gravity
What does it do? All ground immunities get canceled for 5 turns. evasion drops by 2 stages for all mons during the duration and bounce/fly/splash become unusuable.
Pros: Low accuracy moves and the powerful precible blades and earth power can be spammed up for the 4 turns with no worries over immunity factors/miss factors. You open up ability slot for funsies.
Why not thousand arrows? You miss out on power and are locked on only hitting physical side (earth power).
Why not no guard? You open up a damage rising ability + hit flying types with ground moves.
Cons: You will miss out on a move slot and this move requires that one turn of setup. And the effect is only 5 turns which can be bit lame if enemy stalls it out with KS/spiky shield/fake out.
Should only really be used if you aim to milk out everything from precible blades and earth power in my own opinion.


I'll do few more analyzings bit later on or even start a new topic but I'd kinda like to hear what you guys think of this and if it feels useful

and on other reminder: kektus challenge ends in 3 days
 

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